Metro Jacksonville

Ruins of Jacksonville: The Ambassador Hotel

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/690543995_Lrigx-M.jpg)

The Ambassador Hotel originally opened in 1924 as 310 West Church Street Apartments, the first upscale apartments in downtown Jacksonville. Then, in 1944, it was converted into a hotel and renamed Three-Ten Hotel.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-oct-ruins-of-jacksonville-the-ambassador-hotel

Maybe someone with renovation experience can answer this, but from the looks of those pictures is 8 million a realistic estimate to restore that place?

Has the city stated that they would help out with the $4M?  I'm sure the owner won't actually start construction until that is a guarantee...

My estimate is that $8M is enough to completely gut the place and make it look newer.  It is probably not enough money to completely start from scratch for all of the MEP (mechanical, electrical, plumbing).  I seriously doubt that they can re-use anything in there now, and I also doubt the budget is realistic to install all brand new MEP.  But, in these times, you never know how low some of the sub contractors will go to get a job...

I can imagine that staircase being restored to its former glory. I hope they can get this done.

Just add Zombies!

That place is a teardown.

^^  How can you say that based on a few pictures?  Simply hauling off all the debris will make it look 50% better. 

I only glanced quickly at the pictures, and I'm not an expert but I didn't see anything structural.

Cosmetic appearances mean nothing. 

The building appears to be structurally solid.  This is just what places look like when they have been abandoned for over a decade.

Always wondered what was inside that building... and considering it's almost Halloween, this interior is horror-fest-worthy.  I agree, structurally it seems pretty solid. every bit of wood and plaster needs to come out.

And HOW OLD is are those mini-stoves in the units?

Renovating for lofts means that most of the "apartments" would be shell space with no finishes.  That reduces the cost to common areas and MEP to each space. There really isn't enough information here to determine the cost of the renovation. So from that we can say, sure $8 million will be enough.

When it doesn't work then we'd say..........Oh, you didn't say you wanted that.

A lot of the unknown would be remediation requirements. How much asbestos, fungus and mold does it have?  Then too we'd need square footage and conceptual layout of the building. Add to that the concept of the units.  These old buildings may look sound but they often have structural issues that suck up a lot of the initial money.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 30, 2009, 09:24:24 AM
That place is a teardown.

Are you freaking kidding me??? Did you not just spend the last few weeks berating SPAR, and Louise for being too willing to tear down structures???

Jacksonville had dozens of amazing hotels, and there are but a couple left, and you want to tear one of the last ones down????

It is a very restorable space inside. All the floors are intact and so are the walls and roof. All they need to do is strip everything inside and redo that and clean the outside. Put up some drywall, new ceilings, plumbing, elevators, flooring (carpet wood tile), fixtures, safety requirements, windows, then paint and clean everything. It is an honor to get my photos and writing featured again in Metro Jax ;) Thanks.

My hard drive died so I have not been able to get other location's pictures but hopefully more to come once I get my data back.

Nicely done Paradox, I wish you woulda told me about this so I could have gone with you :P

now go fix your bike!

Quote from: Sportmotor on October 30, 2009, 10:07:44 AM
Nicely done Paradox, I wish you woulda told me about this so I could have gone with you :P

For real!  :)

Good job Paradox!!

Great Pics!! I dont think id want to spend the night there...boo!

wow, last time I was in there was 95, can't imagine anyone investing the money to renovate that place. Hope they do, but this looks like a bulldoze job

Wow, I must be seeing different pictures than some of you. bulldoze & teardown??? Seriously? It doesn't look to be that significant, mainly cosmetic. I was thinking a year sounded realistic with a crew of workers and was excited that progress is coming, then seen the comments... WTF?

I really hope they get this done.  Never been in it, but I've always liked this building for some reason.

Not a day goes by that I don't wish I had several million burning a hole in my pocket, so I could breathe new life into one of the buildings downtown.

even just stripping them down to bare bones, they could sell as artists lofts. some people just need imagination

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 30, 2009, 09:24:24 AM
That place is a teardown.

or a diamond in the rough.

The pics are too good Paradox, bravo!
It's been awhile since I had the willies.

Awesome pics! My friend & I used to sneak into some of the old abandoned buildings downtown a few years ago. I remember the Carling looking very similar when we toured it before renovation. There were old patient records still in filing cabinets and some rooms looked untouched altogether. After seeing the before & after on the Carling I'm confident the Ambassador can be restored too. Here's to hoping that it will.

FCSJ or the old FCCJ would do well to take it, with some funds and turn this into campus housing with classrooms on the first floor. This is by far more sound than the Laura Trio was.

Quote from: Shwaz on October 30, 2009, 01:37:57 PM
Awesome pics! My friend & I used to sneak into some of the old abandoned buildings downtown a few years ago. I remember the Carling looking very similar when we toured it before renovation. There were old patient records still in filing cabinets and some rooms looked untouched altogether. After seeing the before & after on the Carling I'm confident the Ambassador can be restored too. Here's to hoping that it will.

We used to do a lot of urban exploration back when I was in the UK. This site has some great pictures and stories:

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/ (http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/)

Okay y'all, so Lakelander, Stephendare, and I, didn't sneak in here and do this photo shoot, so I have to know, did any of the elevators have the classic folding gates on them? Are the cars still in the shafts? BTW, does ANYBODY know of a building left downtown with the classic elevators, polished brass folding gates, etc?

We used to have so many, they would sometimes have a seat for the operators... Yeah, PAID motormen and women, that would take you to your floor, help with a bag, the child, hold the car if you called... good old days.  

OCKLAWAHA

Status of current renovation plans?

I hope it is a diamond in the rough and hope it can be renovated, however, judging from those pics more work needs to be done than meets the eye, and, the deterioration inside much more than I thought; looks like this will be much more than an 8 or 12 million dollar renovation/rehab/reconstruction job. The Owner or whomever will have their work cut out for them.

Disagree with this hotel being a candidate for a bulldozer.  That is and should be out of the question and certainly not an option.  Being that the Courthouse project is humming right along, let's see if we can salvage and revive this old queen.

I was last there in 1993 I believe.  I used to frequent the bar in the basement from time to time...had friends who weren't doing so well who frequented that bar and even lived in the rooms, but I never saw the inside of the hotel.  Lot of memories down in the bar section (and I did see the bar in a couple of photos).

Great, classic photos Paradox...well done!  Question though...how the hell did you get in?  Did you break in?

Heights Unknown

MSNBC has a story up today, "World’s eeriest abandoned places".

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33421753/ns/travel-destinations/

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 31, 2009, 01:27:47 AM
Okay y'all, so Lakelander, Stephendare, and I, didn't sneak in here and do this photo shoot, so I have to know, did any of the elevators have the classic folding gates on them? Are the cars still in the shafts? BTW, does ANYBODY know of a building left downtown with the classic elevators, polished brass folding gates, etc?

We used to have so many, they would sometimes have a seat for the operators... Yeah, PAID motormen and women, that would take you to your floor, help with a bag, the child, hold the car if you called... good old days.  

I remember elevators like this in the old Furchgott's and/or Levy/Wolf department store buildings.  I think both buildings are still there but don't know if the elevators are.  Also, not quite the same, but I thought at one time the Greenleaf/Jacobs building still had older style elevators.  I sure remember the nice ladies who ran these elevators in the days of white gloves and hats!

Unfortunately, with legal liability, finding old style parts and service, increasing rules and standards imposed by regulators, etc., I wonder how many owners can afford to keep these classics running while staying in code.  Add the local lack of appreciation for such things, and who knows?  You might check with the elevator service companies or the elevator inspectors.

If you look at the cost of building a new building of the same size, in the same place, a bill of 8-10 million is cheap!

The greenest building of all is one you don't have to build from scratch.  It is also the least expensive.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 31, 2009, 01:27:47 AM
Okay y'all, so Lakelander, Stephendare, and I, didn't sneak in here and do this photo shoot, so I have to know, did any of the elevators have the classic folding gates on them? Are the cars still in the shafts? BTW, does ANYBODY know of a building left downtown with the classic elevators, polished brass folding gates, etc?
We used to have so many, they would sometimes have a seat for the operators... Yeah, PAID motormen and women, that would take you to your floor, help with a bag, the child, hold the car if you called... good old days.  
OCKLAWAHA

Here is my flickr link with all the photos of this in it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/43379180@N04/sets/72157622544797826/ There is not that type of elevator in this place but yes I have pictures of the elevator cars from below and one with a broken door so you could look inside. Unfortunately I can't afford a premium flickr so as I upload more pictures the old ones get removed by them :(

Quote from: heights unknown on October 31, 2009, 06:13:06 AM
I hope it is a diamond in the rough and hope it can be renovated, however, judging from those pics more work needs to be done than meets the eye, and, the deterioration inside much more than I thought; looks like this will be much more than an 8 or 12 million dollar renovation/rehab/reconstruction job. The Owner or whomever will have their work cut out for them.
Great, classic photos Paradox...well done!  Question though...how the hell did you get in?  Did you break in?
Heights Unknown

Nope I did not break in. I don't think it would cost that much to rehab... they already included the costs of a complete stripping of the interior in the plans so none of that matters. The concrete and brick shell is solid and that is what they need.

Thanks Paradox.  That's good to know; so we may have a new development of some sort there in the not too distant future.

Heights Unknown

I've always wondered about this place.  Thanks.

Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Are you serious?  The Carling was in worse shape than the Ambassador and look at it now.  I also had the pleasure of seeing two history hotels in DT Lakeland that had been long vacant and in worse condition then this building, get renovated in the late 1990s/early 200s.  Also long as its structurally sound, renovation is feasible.  If it were not, the development group working to bring it back would not be spending money to do that.

Lakeland Terrace Hotel
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2776-p1050307.JPG)
This place used to be a major homeless magnet.  Now its one of the nicest hotels in the city with a nice upscale restaurant at street level.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2770-p1050308.JPG)

Regency Hotel
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2750-p1050301.JPG)
Many thought this one would fall in on itself.  However, its now a nice apartment building.

Quote from: GENTRY on November 12, 2009, 06:33:55 AM
Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Thank you for pointing out the mindset of how Jacksonville got to be where it is now.

Lake, Do you have any pictures of the Carling before rennovation?

Am I old I didn't realize.

Quote from: GENTRY on November 12, 2009, 06:33:55 AM
Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Gentry; respect your thoughts and opinions but I disagree.

And thanks Lake for laying out the justification for renovation of this Jax jewel so eloquently and succinctly. I need not say more.

Heights Unknown

Quote from: Lucasjj on November 12, 2009, 07:52:16 AM
Lake, Do you have any pictures of the Carling before rennovation?

Not in my personal collection but there are some in the library's special collections department.

I would challenge Gentry to cite one example of an historic (or even simply "old") building being razed and replaced with something better and more useful than a vacant lot over the last 15 years (River City Renaissance and BJP eras).

That strategy clearly isn't working any better than leaving the buildings to stand empty.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2009, 06:41:46 AM
Are you serious?  The Carling was in worse shape than the Ambassador and look at it now.  I also had the pleasure of seeing two history hotels in DT Lakeland that had been long vacant and in worse condition then this building, get renovated in the late 1990s/early 200s.  Also long as its structurally sound, renovation is feasible.  If it were not, the development group working to bring it back would not be spending money to do that.

Lakeland Terrace Hotel
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2776-p1050307.JPG)
This place used to be a major homeless magnet.  Now its one of the nicest hotels in the city with a nice upscale restaurant at street level.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2770-p1050308.JPG)

Regency Hotel
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2750-p1050301.JPG)
Many thought this one would fall in on itself.  However, its now a nice apartment building.

I'm absolutely serious. Lakeland a "major homeless magnet?" Wake up. Posting images from a city who has a downtown a tenth the size of Jacksonville with 90% less crime and homelessness is one thing. Realizing the two cities and the numerous buildings don't compare, that's reality.

Let me tell you the difference between buildings that are in bad condition and buildings that are condemned. Not all buildings in bad shape have been condemned. Hence the Carling, 11 East, etc. They were simply abandoned and or neglected by the owners. I know the people who owned 11 East. They sold it because they couldn't find the proper contractor to renovate it and they didn't want to pay $700,000 in property taxes every year on an empty run down building (not condemned). Such would be the case with the Carling and many other buildings downtown if one was to dig up city files.

On the other hand you have the Ambassador Hotel. Not only did it become rundown, dilapidated, abandoned and unsafe. It is now condemned. The fact that it has not been demolished is only because the city is backlogged in red tape and hasn't determined how to deconstruct or implode it. Just because it's standing doesn't mean it's structurally sound. Despite any rumors of contractors renovating the Ambassador Hotel, it will never happen. It is against the law. Unless the law is circumvented. There are many salvageable buildings downtown but unfortunately this is not one. Sorry.

Quote from: Dan B on November 12, 2009, 06:57:15 AM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 12, 2009, 06:33:55 AM
Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Thank you for pointing out the mindset of how Jacksonville got to be where it is now.

Sorry you misinterpreted my observation but the reality is this. A condemned building cannot be renovated. It can be demolished then replaced only.

However. There are many buildings in downtown Jacksonville that are "not" condemned and "are" capable of being renovated. Look at my other explanation and you will catch my drift. It's not my mindset it's reality. I've lived downtown for the last 13 plus years. How about you?

Quote from: JeffreyS on November 12, 2009, 08:43:02 AM
Am I old I didn't realize.

Maybe you're not old but have you any knowledge of the current condition of the building? You have to remove the emotion when the reality is that certain buildings cannot be saved.

A condemned building certainly can be renovated. There are examples all around the city.

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 03:28:40 PM

Quote from: Dan B on November 12, 2009, 06:57:15 AM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 12, 2009, 06:33:55 AM
Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Thank you for pointing out the mindset of how Jacksonville got to be where it is now.

Sorry you misinterpreted my observation but the reality is this. A condemned building cannot be renovated. It can be demolished then replaced only.

However. There are many buildings in downtown Jacksonville that are "not" condemned and "are" capable of being renovated. Look at my other explanation and you will catch my drift. It's not my mindset it's reality. I've lived downtown for the last 13 plus years. How about you?

Simply not true.

Quote from: ac on November 12, 2009, 10:43:48 AM
I would challenge Gentry to cite one example of an historic (or even simply "old") building being razed and replaced with something better and more useful than a vacant lot over the last 15 years (River City Renaissance and BJP eras).

That strategy clearly isn't working any better than leaving the buildings to stand empty.

I'm not saying that a better building has replaced landmarks. It's just an unfortunate truth that some buildings cannot be saved. I would love to see the Ambassador Hotel brought back to it's glory days but this is one building that won't stand the test of time much longer.

I believe the River City Renaissance has been poorly managed for the most part because in my humble opinion I believe too many handshakes have been and are being given to the wrong people. I have lived in downtown Jax for 13 plus years and welcome every renovation, that is feasible. The Ambassador Hotel is not.

Injecting emotion is actually the best way to get a difficult thing done. That does not mean ignore facts.

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 03:41:10 PM

Quote from: ac on November 12, 2009, 10:43:48 AM
I would challenge Gentry to cite one example of an historic (or even simply "old") building being razed and replaced with something better and more useful than a vacant lot over the last 15 years (River City Renaissance and BJP eras).

That strategy clearly isn't working any better than leaving the buildings to stand empty.

I'm not saying that a better building has replaced landmarks. It's just an unfortunate truth that some buildings cannot be saved. I would love to see the Ambassador Hotel brought back to it's glory days but this is one building that won't stand the test of time much longer.

I believe the River City Renaissance has been poorly managed for the most part because in my humble opinion I believe too many handshakes have been and are being given to the wrong people. I have lived in downtown Jax for 13 plus years and welcome every renovation, that is feasible. The Ambassador Hotel is not.

So you're saying the current developer, architect, and structural engineer didn't do any due diligence on the building?

Quote from: heights unknown on November 12, 2009, 10:09:25 AM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 12, 2009, 06:33:55 AM
Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Gentry; respect your thoughts and opinions but I disagree.

And thanks Lake for laying out the justification for renovation of this Jax jewel so eloquently and succinctly. I need not say more.

Heights Unknown

Thanks for the respect. But understand that "justification for renovation" is emotional. The reality is that a condemned building cannot be renovated. Come downtown where I live and look at the difference between the signs posted on buildings. I think that's where people are missing the point. There are a number of buildings with "condemned" signs but there are many more with "for sale or rent" signs. That is a big difference. There are many other buildings downtown that are not condemned and should be renovated. I would love to see many of these buildings brought back to good use. They would be my neighbors.

Gentry, it's weird to keep claiming that something is not possible when it happens all the time.

Condemned buildings are renovated all of the time, sometimes they are not economically feasible, but other times they are.  When a building is condemned, it means the public can't be allowed inside of the building, that doesn't mean that work cannot be done on the building to bring it back to a point where it can be inhabited once again, with certain measures in place.

If this were the case there would be quite a few more vacant lots in Springfield.  

A picture speaks a thousand words. 

2065 North Market Street, condemed in 2005
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3635-market-aerial.jpg)
This 2005 aerial shows the building and it's collapsed roof.

It was restored in 2007
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3579-p1080241.JPG)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/698570189_faBpC-M.jpg)

Conclusion:  Condemed buildings can be restored.

Another example is the Klutho Apartments.

Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2009, 03:30:08 PM
what an uninformed rant, Gentry.

1.  Since Jacksonville's downtown has the lowest crime district in the city, it would be a safe bet that Lakeland's would compare pretty equally per capita.

2.   There is a difference between 'condemned' and 'ready to demolish'.. and a little trip over to the renovated Klutho Apartments would give you a pretty clear example of how far a line that can be.

3.  I was a friend of Paul Hazlett, the developer at the Carling building in the 1980s whose plumbing woes and omni directional goat humping at the hands of the City saw the incurring of those 700k fines (they obviously were not annually assessed).

You should have seen what the City Hall looked like.  Or for that matter the AHL building that is currently serving as John Rood's other renovated masterpeice, 11 east.

The fact that the building is renovated and is a pretty nice establishment at the present time kind of makes your points wrong dont they?  It was condemned as well.

In fact they kind of make you look a little nuts.

Sorry but I'm not ranting. Look up the definition. Unlike you I'm not making emotional attacks. I'm just stating facts as an intelligent person would.

1. Sorry you are wrong. This zone (not district) in Jacksonville has the worst crime rate in the city as ranked by Forbes magazine. Where are your facts coming from? Sorry the two cities don't compare.

2. "Condemned" is the word used for "ready to demolish." What you've missed is the red tape between the two. The lowrise Klutho Apartments at 1830 N. Main St. did not pose the same problems a high rise hotel brings to the table. That's comparing apples and oranges. That makes no sense.

3. Again your facts are erroneous. You are talking about your friend at the Carling which is irrelevant. I was talking about 11 East. You referred to fines incurred on a building I don't know about. I was talking about my friend who with his partners owned 11 East (not Carling) and were paying $700.000 a year for property taxes. Get your story straight.

I've lived in downtown for the last 13 plus years. Care to set me straight on anything else you don't understand?

Look at some of my other posts and you may understand a bit better than you come across. I don't see why you have an emotional investment.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on November 16, 2009, 03:40:17 PM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 03:28:40 PM

Quote from: Dan B on November 12, 2009, 06:57:15 AM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 12, 2009, 06:33:55 AM
Up front I must tell you I had the mis-pleasure of checking into the Ambassador Hotel in 1990, then immediately checking out after viewing my room. Back then it wasn't suitable for human inhabitants. This building was condemned for countless reasons and absolutely needs to be demolished. It cannot be renovated enough to be a safe structure for modern living. Not to mention the current codes that could never be met considering it's antiquated infrastructure. What may be next for this parcel of land should be decided between the city and any interested parties. But one thing's for sure. This building needs to go. It's not a historical building but in the minds of old men holding onto the past.

Thank you for pointing out the mindset of how Jacksonville got to be where it is now.

Sorry you misinterpreted my observation but the reality is this. A condemned building cannot be renovated. It can be demolished then replaced only.

However. There are many buildings in downtown Jacksonville that are "not" condemned and "are" capable of being renovated. Look at my other explanation and you will catch my drift. It's not my mindset it's reality. I've lived downtown for the last 13 plus years. How about you?

Simply not true.

I wish it weren't true but...

What makes you think the Ambassador is not structurally sound?  Is there information out there supporting this claim or is it a hunch?

Quote from: Lunican on November 16, 2009, 03:39:54 PM
A condemned building certainly can be renovated. There are examples all around the city.

Ask yourself. Do you know that the buildings you have seen renovated were condemned? Or did they simply look like they should be condemned? Big difference. So many buildings survive because some group, company or individual saves it before the city labels them.

Wasn't the Pearl condemned for a weekend?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3232/2850045257_f6ea813584.jpg)

Quote from: JeffreyS on November 16, 2009, 03:42:00 PM
Injecting emotion is actually the best way to get a difficult thing done. That does not mean ignore facts.

We'd like to believe that emotion is the best thing but in business it is rarely involved. The city doesn't use emotion when it makes it's decision. The contractor does not use emotion when bidding on a project. It's all facts and figures.

Gentry, this is what everyone is telling you...signs have gone up on buildings stating they have been condemned, and then some of those same signs have come down after renovation.  I'm not sure why you're arguing this point?

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 04:16:56 PM

Sorry but I'm not ranting. Look up the definition. Unlike you I'm not making emotional attacks. I'm just stating facts as an intelligent person would.

1. Sorry you are wrong. This zone (not district) in Jacksonville has the worst crime rate in the city as ranked by Forbes magazine. Where are your facts coming from? Sorry the two cities don't compare.

Uh, yeah, Gentry? Hello. The recent Forbes article that listed a certain "zone" in the LaVilla and Brooklyn, neighborhoods, as among the nations most "deadly," was completely a fabrication from "God knows where..."  I'm not taking sides here, just want to correct a fact, that they carried a story on deadly neighborhoods, and wrote about a "neighborhood" without neighbors!

LaVilla and Brooklyn, as residential "hoods", would have a hard time filling the seats on a JTA bus today. Thanks largely to bulldozier mentality of the "Emperors at City Hall, and the boy prince." Yes, the city has been run like a business, albeit one that smacks of stagecoaches, telegraph, and cerebral clipper ships. Several of us have hiked all over this deadly turf, even UNDER IT, and we've yet to see anything approaching the scary crap we've all seen in Arlington, Mandarin, or Orange Park.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2009, 03:43:11 PM
Well other than your brief stay over a two decades ago, what particular aspect of the renovation would you say, in your professional opinion, is unrenovateable?

The structural supports?

The electrical systems?

The plumbing?

The supercalifragilisticexpyalladociousness?

You just stated several of the defining reasons why the renovation will not happen. This building would cost far too much to retrofit all that is damaged and or not up to today's code. Any contractor who would take on this project would either go broke, bow out or would be receiving some serious financial support from the city. This building would be too costly. Take your pick.

BTW. This is the correct spelling. Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.

Let's just temporarily assume, for sake of argument, that The Ambassador truly cannot be saved.

Were we living in a city that hadn't already razed block after block of viable buildings in the name of progress that never materialized, would there be this much debate over one building?  Probably not; but this is the reality of our past and present lack of forethought and respect for these abandoned buildings.

That said, time will tell on this one.

Gentry, exactly what are your credentials to make your assessment?  Are you a structural engineer, architect, contractor, what exactly?

Both the Carling and 11E. received city subsidies.  Is your argument that the Ambassador cannot be renovated because of a lack of structural integrity, or because the numbers wouldn't work from a economic standpoint?    If it is the later, a subsidy for this building could eliminate that.  Granted, the city is strapped for funds currently.   

13 years of downtown living?

The Building that now houses the Pearl was in dreadful condition when TSI first took it over. I was in there when the old liquor store/bar was in there before the Pearl, and the second floor was sitting wide open, with about 3 dozen pigeons living there. I thought for sure the building was doomed, and now it looks great.

You guys should have seen the Book-Cadillac Hotel in Detroit before it was restored last year.  It had been vacant since 1986 before a $200 million restoration project into a Westin Hotel

Before
(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070313/070313_Book-Cadillac_hmed_11a.h2.jpg)

After
(http://www.starwoodhotels.com/pub/media/3001/wes3001re.51064_md.jpg)

(http://www.detroitbuildingtrades.org/newspapr/BookCadillacAerial2.jpg)

QuoteLegendary style and glamour has returned to Detroit. Following a $200 million renovation, the historic Book Cadillac Hotel has been restored to its original splendor to reclaim  its position as Detroit’s premier lodging and social gathering destination. The luxury hotel also features more than 60 residences on the upper floors and some of the Midwest’s most dramatic public event spaces.

Now included in the National Register of Historic Places, the Italian Renaissanceâ€"style hotel, built by Detroit’s famous Book brothers, was the tallest building in Detroit and the tallest hotel in the world at its completion in 1924.

http://www.bookcadillacwestin.com/

Um ... let me just add to the chorus here ... condemned buildings can be renovated. It happens all the time. I've been inside several condemned buildings in Jax which have since been restored. I don't know really know what else to say.

On the issue of structural soundness - yes, if the building were structurally unsound, it would probably be prohibitively expensive to restore. That's a big if. I have no idea one way or another.

As bleak as the pictures appear, I have to say that they aren't that bad. I've seen way worse. Most of the fixtures, HVAC, plumbing, etc would be torn out no matter what. The nastiest stuff would be torn out with the interior demolition, and (if it's structurally sound) you're going to be left with a fairly blank slate like most other old renovations. The scariest thing for me was seeing the mold. That could be a much more difficult issue than peeling plaster, bombed out kitchens, and outdated electrical.

This is really funny, if old and condemned = beyond repair, someone needs to tell St. Augustine, Kingsley Plantation etc all about it. There is a similar basket case study, y'all check out the haunted and abandoned "SKIRVIN HOTEL" in OKLAHOMA CITY. Of course this takes a school of advanced urban thinking, something I'm afraid OKLAHOMA, has, and JACKSONVILLE, can't even define.  

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2062/2224150821_652d94645b_o.jpg)

(http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-oklahoma/SkirvinHotel-Justin.jpg)

(http://www.dreadcentral.com/img/coldspots/skirvin05.jpg)

http://www.dreadcentral.com/story/the-skirvin-hotel
http://www.okc.gov/projects/Skirvin.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4182/is_20030310/ai_n10157162/

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 04:28:35 PM

Quote from: Lunican on November 16, 2009, 03:39:54 PM
A condemned building certainly can be renovated. There are examples all around the city.

Ask yourself. Do you know that the buildings you have seen renovated were condemned? Or did they simply look like they should be condemned? Big difference. So many buildings survive because some group, company or individual saves it before the city labels them.

Yes,  They were condemned and had the official orange death certificate on them.  My very own house was one of them.  It's been completely renovated.  

I'm amazed you continue to argue this point.  A condemned building can be renovated. PERIOD.

Gentry, there is a "sucker" who believes the building can be saved.  I guess we'll have to see how it turns out.

QuoteHistoric downtown hotel eyed for renovation

The Ambassador, born 85 years ago, is eyed for "high-end" living.

By Kevin Turner Story updated at 5:43 AM on Friday, Jul. 17, 2009

In the first half of the 20th century, downtown Jacksonville was replete with hotels, from the majestic and lavish to the utilitarian and spartan.

They had names like the St. George, the Jefferson, the Floridian, the Aragon, the Rollins, the George Washington, the Windsor, the Seminole, the Mayflower, the Carling, the Robert Meyer and the Ambassador.

Most have long since been demolished to be replaced by other buildings or parking lots, and only a few examples of their solid, gracious architectural styles stand today. The Carling on Adams Street is living a second life as an apartment building and the St. George on Duval Street houses Jacksonville city offices.

But the Ambassador, which has stood vacant at the corner of Church and Julia streets since closing its doors in 1998, is next on the list for a second chance.

Lamonte Carter, director of Oasis Venture Group, has been quietly working in recent years on a plan for the historic building’s rebirth as Ambassador Lofts apartments, and seeks to restore its glory days in modernizing its interior while rebuilding its 80 hotel rooms into 50 residential units, converting 10,000 square feet of commercial space on its ground floor.

The units will be “high end,” he said, but also will be affordable for middle class tenants, Carter said. Because the building is historic at 85 years old, its exterior won’t be changed, he said.

Carter said he first saw the Ambassador when he happened to park in front of it on Julia Street while hurrying to make an appointment about four years ago. The vacant building immediately caught his eye and his imagination, he said.

“I was rushing,” he said. “I saw the building, and I just paused a bit.”

He asked owner Sam Easton about it and since has been working on a dream of buying and restoring it. He said he’ll fund the estimated $8 million project with about half in private equity funds and half in city, state and federal grants and low-interest loans earmarked for low-income workforce housing and historic renovation. He hasn’t yet purchased the building and declined to discuss its price. It’s listed on the Duval County Property Appraiser’s Web site as having $1.8 million in market value.

Easton had a plan to renovate the whole block, with a new office building and parking garage near the hotel. Carter said he’s working along the lines of that plan, which was shelved when work on the nearby Duval County Courthouse stalled five years ago. Carter said he seeks to work with Easton in the future to fulfill the vision for the block, but he’s focusing all of his attention on the Ambassador first.

“I see the Ambassador as being the anchor” for the block, he said.

The six-story, H-shaped, Georgian Revival Ambassador first opened in 1924 as a swank apartment building called 310 West Church Street Apartments, according to Florida Times-Union archives. Its 21st century renaming wouldn’t be the first. It was renamed the Three-Ten Hotel in 1944, the Hotel Southland in 1947, the Griner in 1949 and finally Ambassador in 1955.

In 1983, the building was added to the National Register of Historic Places, but that didn’t slow its business decline. Sometime between 1955 and the late 1990s, the hotel slid from serving high-end hotel guests to renting by the week as a rooming house, and, like much of the downtown around it, into a reputation for seediness.

Carter said he hopes to have the purchase of the building closed within the next two months and to start the interior demolition that will clear the way for construction immediately afterward. Once construction begins, it will take about a year to finish, he said.

Emerson Brantley, president of Web3Direct, and consultant to Oasis and Tennessee-based City Capital, said the search is on to find tenants for the building’s commercial space that he says will serve increased area foot traffic when the new county courthouse begins operation.

“The courthouse is going to end up moving a lot of interest away from the river,” Brantley said. “I think it will open all sorts of opportunities for people, and having housing there will also be of benefit.”

The project now has complete architectural designs for its interior space and backers are in discussions with prospective contractors.

“We’re pulling together all of those resources that hopefully will create a new shining star in downtown Jacksonville,” Brantley said.

The effort to meet anticipated demand for residential and commercial space near the new courthouse doesn’t appear to have yet taken hold anywhere else in the area, however, Joe Whitaker, Business Recruitment and Retention Coordinator for the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission said.

“The city does own a small building at 324 North Broad that’s vacant, but we’ve RFPed [advertised for sale] that building twice and never got offers that were equal to the appraised value,” Whitaker said. “We’re hanging onto it in hopes that the courthouse value will allow us to get at least appraised value.”

http://jacksonville.com/business/2009-07-16/story/historic_downtown_hotel_eyed_for_renovation

Okay all. I'm simply stating facts from someone in the know. I'm not being emotional about this because it is a business matter not one that should affect any of us personally. Believe me when I say it doesn't matter to the city or contractors one way or the other. Far too many decisions are reached by those with greased palms. That is why this topic is debatable at all.

1. Yes I have lived downtown for over 13 years and worked here many more.
2. Yes I know condemned signs go up and come down.
3. Yes many projects receive government subsidies and grants (that's why contractors hover like flies).
4. Yes I would like to see the Ambassador Hotel renovated but it is my belief (just mine) that the principals involved know that this project would be a wash. Refer back to number 3.
5. Yes many of the projects you all listed were feasible. 99% in the city have been what are known as low rise renovations. They don't pose the same problems high rise buildings do.
6. Yes other medium/high and rises have been renovated but not all are built alike nor do they age alike. Case in point. The "modern" six-story Berkman Plaza 2 garage. Not all things are created equal.

It will eventually come to light that this is not a doable project. There are at least 6 other medium/high rise buildings that are as historical, need far less retrofitting, thus costing us, the tax payer, less.

Just because a contractor tells his principal(s), who tells our elected officials, it's doable doesn't mean it's best for us in the long run.

What are your top 5/6 candidates for renovation?

Quote from: billy on November 16, 2009, 06:15:43 PM
What are your top 5/6 candidates for renovation?

To make it simple for those who have been trying to challenge my knowledge of the inner workings of downtown, here is a basic list. The following buildings would require the least amount of retrofitting hence keeping the cost to tax payers to a minimum or at least palatable.

1. The "Trio" at Laura and Forsyth, A) Brisbee building B) Florida Life Ins. building C) Florida National Bank building "marble bank"

2. Old Barnett National Bank

3. Atlantic National Bank Annex

4. Jones Bros. Furniture Building

5. Florida Baptist Convention Building

Those are my choice for seven of the more historical buildings that can be used for commercial or residential purposes with the least cost to the tax payer, "us". There are many more that need as much or more retrofitting but their name or multiple names are slipping my mind at the moment. Unfortunately many here will soon come to see the light about the beloved Ambassador Hotel just as so many contractors have in the past.

Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2009, 10:45:50 PM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 04:16:56 PM

Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2009, 03:30:08 PM
what an uninformed rant, Gentry.

1.  Since Jacksonville's downtown has the lowest crime district in the city, it would be a safe bet that Lakeland's would compare pretty equally per capita.

2.   There is a difference between 'condemned' and 'ready to demolish'.. and a little trip over to the renovated Klutho Apartments would give you a pretty clear example of how far a line that can be.

3.  I was a friend of Paul Hazlett, the developer at the Carling building in the 1980s whose plumbing woes and omni directional goat humping at the hands of the City saw the incurring of those 700k fines (they obviously were not annually assessed).

You should have seen what the City Hall looked like.  Or for that matter the AHL building that is currently serving as John Rood's other renovated masterpeice, 11 east.

The fact that the building is renovated and is a pretty nice establishment at the present time kind of makes your points wrong dont they?  It was condemned as well.

In fact they kind of make you look a little nuts.

Sorry but I'm not ranting. Look up the definition. Unlike you I'm not making emotional attacks. I'm just stating facts as an intelligent person would.

1. Sorry you are wrong. This zone (not district) in Jacksonville has the worst crime rate in the city as ranked by Forbes magazine. Where are your facts coming from? Sorry the two cities don't compare.

2. "Condemned" is the word used for "ready to demolish." What you've missed is the red tape between the two. The lowrise Klutho Apartments at 1830 N. Main St. did not pose the same problems a high rise hotel brings to the table. That's comparing apples and oranges. That makes no sense.

3. Again your facts are erroneous. You are talking about your friend at the Carling which is irrelevant. I was talking about 11 East. You referred to fines incurred on a building I don't know about. I was talking about my friend who with his partners owned 11 East (not Carling) and were paying $700.000 a year for property taxes. Get your story straight.

I've lived in downtown for the last 13 plus years. Care to set me straight on anything else you don't understand?

Look at some of my other posts and you may understand a bit better than you come across. I don't see why you have an emotional investment.

great.  provide sources please.

What facts do you need? I stated the only one needed for this reply.

1. Forbes magazine. Anyone here who thinks that this crime zone only encompasses Lavilla. They couldn't be more incorrect. I suggest they come live downtown to find out.

2. Condemned and ready to demolish are written in the city code for building inspections.

3. You were talking about one building. I was talking about another. Both ended up being saved.

Quote from: stephendare on November 16, 2009, 10:47:25 PM

Quote from: GENTRY on November 16, 2009, 05:53:59 PM
Okay all. I'm simply stating facts from someone in the know. I'm not being emotional about this because it is a business matter not one that should affect any of us personally. Believe me when I say it doesn't matter to the city or contractors one way or the other. Far too many decisions are reached by those with greased palms. That is why this topic is debatable at all.

1. Yes I have lived downtown for over 13 years and worked here many more.
2. Yes I know condemned signs go up and come down.
3. Yes many projects receive government subsidies and grants (that's why contractors hover like flies).
4. Yes I would like to see the Ambassador Hotel renovated but it is my belief (just mine) that the principals involved know that this project would be a wash. Refer back to number 3.
5. Yes many of the projects you all listed were feasible. 99% in the city have been what are known as low rise renovations. They don't pose the same problems high rise buildings do.
6. Yes other medium/high and rises have been renovated but not all are built alike nor do they age alike. Case in point. The "modern" six-story Berkman Plaza 2 garage. Not all things are created equal.

It will eventually come to light that this is not a doable project. There are at least 6 other medium/high rise buildings that are as historical, need far less retrofitting, thus costing us, the tax payer, less.

Just because a contractor tells his principal(s), who tells our elected officials, it's doable doesn't mean it's best for us in the long run.

why are you under the impression that taxpayer money is being used for this project?

I was planning on referring you to another one of my posts but I'll address it here. Many principals and contractors have approached the private owner of the Ambassador Hotel over the last 10 years at least. Each one has also wanted incentives, subsidies and grants (free money) from our elected officials. That's fairly common but what's even more common is that every one of them has backed out when they didn't get what they expected. Sound familiar? Shipyards, courthouse, etc...

Check this old link to get an idea of how many project (new and restoration) have fallen by the wayside. Make sure to look at the dates and dollar estimates. Same old story.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jacksonville.com/images/022505/62568_400.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D73930&usg=__w4COIjsk27lkApvEVHjvaM7JmY0=&h=281&w=400&sz=31&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=MvVMptJuU1n-ZM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3D201%2BNorth%2BHogan%2BStreet%2Bjacksonville%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1

I really don't understand why Gentry is being attacked for posting an opinion. Is this a Public Blog or what?
I understand optimism in restoring our downtown buildings, but have any of you "Decade Downtowners" tried to restore a SERIOUSLY rundown Riverside House?...Some people (owners or willed offspring) have run these places into the ground. And I mean INTO THE GROUND! whether from substance abuse or just plain laziness or greed, some people can stretch the life of a structure (keeping the inside from prying eyes) till the outside shows rot and is noticed by neighbor reports or the COJ Patrols.
Face it folks..some owners have abused thier property beyond repair and most prospective investors wont fork out the extra exorbient amount of money to gut and FACADE a pile of crap into your  Hip new establishment.
This building like the PARK PLACE was a drug buying place and a known Shooting gallery. I dont believe in bad vibes or past history or deaths, but a LOT of others do and are scared away.
Show us the structural reports showing us how sound this building is and we ALL will be convinced it is worth saving.
Is it leaning? Folding? has anyone done a Laser Leveling/Survey yet?
flame away...this is what freedom of speech is all about.

I was the one that took all of the pictures of this hotel. It is very sound structurally. Also the roof is very sound and does not leak besides the wide open door and busted sky lights. The condemnation letters inside the building did not state that the structure was unsafe. It was just not up to code in alot of the rooms anymore. It needs a renovation just like the baptist building you put in your top 5. That building is not really rentable in its current condition and if it was to have people in it I doubt it would be up to code. Any structure that old will not be up to code if it has not been updated. Like in any renovation they have forseen and included in the expected cost a complete stripping and replacement of the insides including electric, plumbing, and safety. It would basically be a shell with floors. This will be far cheaper than new construction as they would have to not only tear everything down and clean up but STILL add all of those things that make it up to code. There was no part of this building which felt unsafe.

Ernest freedom of speech is also extended to the people who respond to your words.  You can and will be critiqued on what you say.  The protection of speech is that it won't be suppressed by government.

If someone wants to save the shell,all power to them,but when a demo like this happens, costs always go up as unforseen problems are uncovered.
You must have a strong stomach,and wallet. Overuns could send someone to the cleaners.

True, Ernest...but its doable.  What we were told many times in this thread was that you can't renovate a condemned building, which is not true.

I agree...COJ will plaster those at their whim.The Pearl didnt deserve that.

Stephen has a good point.  The houses of Springfield and Riverside will still be standing when the houses built in the '70's, 80's, and '90's have long crumbled back into rubble.  Fiberboard, dry wall and yellow pine studs will not stand the test of time the way first growth, longleaf pine, plaster and brick will do.

I'm with you on the Residential...Gotta turn that regulator up to 100 psi to shoot a nail into some of these studs. I.m aware we had quite a few lumber and turpentine Magnates build houses in our area back in the early 1900's.
I still wonder about the integrity of some of the buildings downtown,(A lot are connected to each other) but if someone is willing to commit  till completion...I salute them and will watch their efforts.

Quote from: stephendare on November 17, 2009, 10:16:01 AM
And besides, Gentry isnt being attacked, its the nonsense statements that hes making.

I have asked him to back up what he says with a little fact, which he doesnt seem inclined to do.

Ernest, I have done a number of historic renovations, several blocks worth in fact of multistory commercial buildings which had to be completely gutted, re plumbed, rewired and even the facades had to be torn completely off the bottom floors and completely rebuilt.  On one of them we had to have cast iron decorative elements recast in order to restore the historic facades.

There are federal tax credits for doing that kind of work, and one of my associates was able to actually make a profit from simply restoring the buildings, when he leveraged the tax credits against enterprise and empowerment zone credits.  Of course those things are only handy if you are the type that would otherwise have to pay a couple hundred thousand a year in taxes, but Reed was that kind of guy.

But regardless of cash flow or tax credits.  When you restore one of the well built buildings of a hundred years ago, you end up with a product that simply could not be replicated for a three times the price in today's market. 

Its an illusion to claim that "it would cheaper to tear it down and build it new' anyways.

If you think about it, the 'logic' behind the argument just breaks down over time.

Restore = 1 million.
That building is then good for another hundred years.

Tear Down and build modern building =600,000.00
It lasts another 30 years.  then has to be replaced
= 600,000.00

That one lasts another 30 years.  then has to be replaced
= 600,000.00

Then that one has to be replaced at about the same time as the restoration could be restored again.

Over time, the building that was 'cheaper' ends up being twice as expensive.

Geeez I give up. I gave you the simple facts and now you rattle off numbers from the top of your head. Have you ever been outside Jacksonville? Have you done more than the simple handyman work, over the years, you alluded to?

If a one hundred year old building was built with superior quality then it's worth the look and possibly a retrofit. What you're arguing is that all "old" buildings were built that way. You couldn't be farther from the truth. Just because the Carling and 11 East stood the test of time doesn't mean the Ambassador Hotel did. BTW. The Carling shakes and sound travels through it like going through rice paper. Though the structure is sound, the contractor cut corners and did the bare minimum. Nothing of any safety risk but none the less, the residents have been cheated. It will not last another hundred years sorry. 11 East on the other hand does stand a better chance of seeing one hundred renovated years.

The problem with you bloggers here is you all believe every old building can or should be saved. Hey not my words. I have been talking only about the Ambassador Hotel. Every one of you have been giving me countless examples.

Okay once and for all. The Ambassador Hotel will never be renovated/restored. However. There are at least 6 other downtown buildings (historical or not) that will eventually see new life. Trust me or do you want me to pull city records? LMAO.

All I can say, Stephen, is you may as well give up.  It seems impossible he will provide reliable backup for his assertions and he seems inherently dismissive of all "bloggers."  What is it about some people that they go on websites and then give the proprietors of the website the business?  If "bloggers" are so stupid.. don't read the blog.

To a better point- the thought of "Legitimate Clown Makeup" makes me laugh.  Illegitimate Clown Makeup might make me laugh even harder if I knew what that would look like.  It would also be a pretty bizarre name for a band.

Quote from: stephendare on November 17, 2009, 01:27:55 PM
um.  did you bother reading the post?

Im still waiting for your blistering report from a non "Forbes Magazine" source that shows that Downtown is the worst crime district since the twin cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) went up in flames.

And it would be nice if you would give a little insight on the accuracy of your own assessment.  Aside from staying in a fleabag hotel in the 90s, what actual examination of the buildings structure and systems are you privy to?

Also, since you alluded to your working knowledge of the perils of the 11east building, which of the ownership groups were you speaking about?  After all, if you are going to prominently mention the building whose renovation proves the clown makeup you are wearing is legitimate, it would be nice to know a:  who these mysterious owners were, and b: what chilling insights did they give you about the unworkablility of the building before the building was then, miraculously, renovated?

Also what are you talking about with this 'retrofit' business?

Ive only heard that term used in the building trade in connection with making a building able to survive an earthquake.

Are you aware that Jacksonville has very few of these?  We are most likely to have a Hurricane.  which the building has already survived twice.

Your actual point seems to be:

It is cheaper to redevelop buildings that have less wrong with them.

No one would refute this point.  Its a good point.  Its a sane point.

Perhaps you could hang out with that point for a hot minute and stay away from the big hot plate of Crazy?

All you want to do is argue. You obviously lack any capacity for construction terminology. Which proves to me you are spewing nonsense. Retrofit is the process of furnishing with new or modified parts or equipment not available or considered necessary at the time of manufacture and/or to install (new or modified parts or equipment) in something previously manufactured or constructed and to adapt to a new purpose or need. Sound familiar?

Since my very first post on this topic it was not an emotional discussion, as is the nature of business. I have been stating what I know as an insider and my experience with this business. I am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL and previously Manila, Philippines who simply shared his opinion on the state of the Ambassador Hotel.

I won't address your other points because you're simply too dense or too young to learn. Hopefully for your sake it's the latter.

Peace out.

Quote from: GENTRY on November 17, 2009, 07:17:58 PM

All you want to do is argue. You obviously lack any capacity for construction terminology. Which proves to me you are spewing nonsense. Retrofit is the process of furnishing with new or modified parts or equipment not available or considered necessary at the time of manufacture and/or to install (new or modified parts or equipment) in something previously manufactured or constructed and to adapt to a new purpose or need. Sound familiar?

Since my very first post on this topic it was not an emotional discussion, as is the nature of business. I have been stating what I know as an insider and my experience with this business. I am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL and previously Manila, Philippines who simply shared his opinion on the state of the Ambassador Hotel.

I won't address your other points because you're simply too dense or too young to learn. Hopefully for your sake it's the latter.

Peace out.

For someone who doesnt put any emotion into discussions, your filled with it.

QuoteI am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL

Well that certainly explains why so many old buildings get torn down in Jacksonville.  

Have you seen or taken part in a detailed examination of the Ambassador Hotel?  Are you basing your opinion on exposure to the building more recent than your short visit in the early '90's?  I do know that the building was occupied into the late '90's, so it must have been habitable at the time, unless codes enforcement was seriously derelict in their duties.     

Quote from: vicupstate on November 17, 2009, 07:47:48 PM

QuoteI am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL

Well that certainly explains why so many old buildings get torn down in Jacksonville.

Its been my experience in the industry that Jax is roughly around a decade behind its peers on issues like this.  Creativity is definitely lacking, which in turn, leads to a heavier emphasis on continued demolition and surface parking lot expansion.  As more and more people from outside of this area relocate to this city, things will eventually change for the better.

Come on, Stephen!  Saying that someone is "too dense to understand" is coming close to the name calling that none of us like here.  Them's not fighting words, pardner, but maybe squabbling words. :D

Quote from: thelakelander on November 17, 2009, 09:57:54 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on November 17, 2009, 07:47:48 PM

QuoteI am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL

Well that certainly explains why so many old buildings get torn down in Jacksonville.

Its been my experience in the industry that Jax is roughly around a decade behind its peers on issues like this.  Creativity is definitely lacking, which in turn, leads to a heavier emphasis on continued demolition and surface parking lot expansion.  As more and more people from outside of this area relocate to this city, things will eventually change for the better.

Well, that was a very polite and well said response. 

I am certainly a little frustrated that an architectural engineer for the City of Jacksonville does not think any condemned building should be saved and should only be demolished.  Its obviously this mode of thinking that has given us so many beautiful empty lots and parking lots in our downtown core.  I wish we could hit rewind where we thought Gentry's main claim to being in the know was his 13 years of downtown living, now I'm depressed.

Although, this sounds like it may be shaping up to be a pretty good potential article for you "bloggers."

Quote from: Dog Walker on November 18, 2009, 09:00:15 AM
Come on, Stephen!  Saying that someone is "too dense to understand" is coming close to the name calling that none of us like here.  Them's not fighting words, pardner, but maybe squabbling words. :D

I don't know about that Dog Walker, after all, isn't all talk of Jacksonville, another lesson in DENSITY?

Hee Hee!

OCKLAWAHA

Missed the first use of the pejorative by someone else, Stephen.  Apologies.

GENTRY, it's OK to say that someone is wrong or misinformed.  To say that they are dense is getting borderline insulting and doesn't advance the argument.  Also, Stephen will always needle back so it's a zero sum game.

Back on thread:

In general, on what basis can a building be said to be beyond rehabilitation?  My first though would be that it is when it would cost more to rehabilitate the building and "retrofit" it for a new purpose than it would be to tear it down and build a new building of equal quality.  Second would be when the location is much more valuable than a rehabilitated building would be worth.  An  old house on a half acre in Manhattan would be such a thing as an extreme example.

What other criteria are used by an architect/planner for the city to evaluate a building?  I am sure that significant architectural detail and general attractiveness comes into play somewhere.  The old Barnett Bank building is certainly more appealing to the eye than the Federal Reserve Building for example.  Is there some sort of point system that has been developed?

Quote from: stephendare on November 18, 2009, 06:12:23 PM
I know what it was referring to, dork.  :D  For the record I dont. strawberry blondes never go grey.  its a blessing of our fine scottish genome.

Guess that depends on what side of Scotland ones family is from Stephen. Being related both to Wallace and my Grandmother BRUCE, would suggest I might be a Scot too. Having to use my mothers maiden name as my last name in Colombia, Robert Scott, I guess would also suggest a bit of highlander blood. Trouble is, even with my fat round Scottish face, I'm as GREY as it gets!

OCKLAWAHA
Got to admit, ST. ANDREWS CROSS seems ingrained, either in Blue sans stars or RED with stars.

I doubt the city of jax has even had architects or engineers inside this hotel considering it is privately owned and all the doors are padlocked and or welded shut.

I still think the structure is sound on this hotel from walking every floor and every room inside it multiple times. The cost of demolition and then building an equivalent structure would far outweigh the cost of rehabbing this one and would not look near as nice. Any contractor, architect, and engineer team worth their salt would have foreseen the majority of work needed which is a complete interior stripping and added that into the costs. Also the unforeseen additions usually come from partial restorations. There is not much that can be unforeseen when you expect to redo the entire interior. As long as the foundations or supports or walls are not damaged only minor costs like a rain delay or the price of a product going up or something like that would drive costs up and that would be minor.

Also sportmotor stop being such a furry

I would say from talking to stephendare irl long ago aging is like a fine wine for him so far :P

Quote from: fsujax on October 30, 2009, 08:23:57 AM
I can imagine that staircase being restored to its former glory. I hope they can get this done.

This staircase design is typical in major cities, such as Philadelphia and New York. They're a bitch when you're bringing furniture up. But, in this particular place, I saw an elevator shaft. So, hopefully, people can move their stuff in with a minim of problems.

I fail to see where this "area" has any crime. I've lived one block away from the Ambassador hotel since May of 2007, and the ONLY incident I ever heard of or encountered was a guy taking a hooker inside of the building, when it was easy to get inside until they put the plexiglass walls over the windows that are level with the ground/sidewalk. The police arrived within 2 minutes, immediately apprehended them and hauled them away. The residents in this section of the city don't tolerate this type of behavior.

The Fire & Safety building is practically right across the street. The KBJ Architect Firms' mansion is right there and very well secured. The Metropolitan Lofts (easily renting for $1200-2000/mo, and being completely full) are a block down the street, in full view of the Ambassador. City Place (where I live) is one block's distance from this place, and FBC is RIGHT around the corner. Additionally, the ugly "Ultima"esque AT&T tower is right there, with security guards. We have security. FBC has security. The Metropolitan has a 24 hr concierge (read:guard). There are high end cars parked in all of the surrounding parking lots all through the night - no problems. This section is as lit as a Christmas tree. The only exception would be the old JEA building, but you'd sooner get killed by an old window or piece of debris falling on you than any kind of "crime" around here.

You'd have to be one dumb criminal to do any hanky-panky in this section of town. And with the new courthouse being right around the next corner, this renovation project also happens to make perfect sense. A HUGE chunk of the W/NW quadrant has been fenced off due to the construction, so there really is no room for crime here. I walk through here 3-4 nights a week, late at night, and it's very quiet.

While the building looks pretty ransacked inside, and im not sure about the 8 million dollar figure, id say its probably structurally sound enough to be spared,,, and when its only one of two of the older Hotels left in the downtown area, I of course would favor saving it.   I do not see how 9 million would even be close. Supposedly the price tag to renovate Annie Lytle in January 2006  "approached" 8 to 9 million dollars.. That would be a 2 story School House being made into 33 units. I thought that was pretty steep for a project like this.. and obviously I do not claim to be any expert on renovation costs, but I tend to think the 20-25 Million dollar area is something more realistic to a building of this size.  It has some really sweet features I would hope would be preserved.  AND only having been out of use since the late 90s , probably has had better maintenance... but still , its pretty clear that a total renovation would be necessary..so I kind of doubt 8 million would cover the costs on a building of this size.  The Cleanout alone would be staggering cost-wise. Something I do find amazing is that most of the windows and doors seem to be still intact and not ripped out and busted out, even though they would probably have to undergo , as with the rest of the building, a re-do.

I wish I could have gone on that tour. :)

There's an almost identical building, same architect, in Atlanta.

What is the Status of this building??  Is it on a demolition track or is there ANY possibility of saving it... Getting HPC / City Council on board to possibly give it some time.?

Someone bought it, is my understanding.

Quote from: Dog Walker on November 18, 2009, 02:13:49 PM
In general, on what basis can a building be said to be beyond rehabilitation? 
What other criteria are used by an architect/planner for the city to evaluate a building?

I would put forth a common practice in some of the more history loving cities, where in one standing wall is still viable. Take as an example the walmart built in the Lower Garden District of New Orleans. The building on the site was in critical condition, but one solid brick wall was still standing and Walmart was made to (and from my understanding not upset about) incorporating that wall into their design. The original brick wall was stabilized, and acts as a facade to the parking lot for the Walmart, in fact you could not even really see the Walmart until you turned into the drive.

Another Prime example is the Whole Foods (I think this is mid-town, but on the edge,within blocks of the Garden District) Whole Foods reused the old city trolly garage for the entire store.Truth be told, most of the building is new, the original brick walls were used (much prettier the the cinder block/stucco these places use now) and a new roof, windows, etc was all added. It is fantastic.
The city of New Orleans also demanded funding from a developer wanting to build new apartments to save a historic structure across the street from the planned apartments, they then secured three standing walls of the original Lower Garden District firehouse.They strapped and shored those walls up and sure enough a developer came along and used those three walls to creat a fantastic little mall with a coffee shop, cafe, and lofts.

So if  a building cannot be totally saved and reused, I still feel strongly pieces can. Save the facade, a wall, three walls, incorporate the doors or windows, something. AND Jacksonville needs to force builders, retail to build according to the surroundings in Historic Districts. I never thought a Walmart in the Garden District would work, but by God it does, all because of one standing wall of the original building that was saved.

Uptown, its all about commitment, creativity, and vision.  We sadly lack enough of all of these heretofore.  Where is our white knight to organize the troops?

Quote from: stjr on July 31, 2010, 10:56:54 AM
Uptown, its all about commitment, creativity, and vision.  We sadly lack enough of all of these heretofore.  Where is our white knight to organize the troops?

I do believe money and profit enter into it as well

Quote from: stjr on July 31, 2010, 10:56:54 AM
Uptown, its all about commitment, creativity, and vision.  We sadly lack enough of all of these heretofore.  Where is our white knight to organize the troops?

We don't need him on MJ, when it comes to Urban and Urbanist ideals we are led by the BLACK KNIGHT!

RIGHT ON LAKELANDER!

OCKLAWAHA

:)

Quote from: uptowngirl on July 31, 2010, 07:46:39 AM
Another Prime example is the Whole Foods (I think this is mid-town, but on the edge,within blocks of the Garden District) Whole Foods reused the old city trolly garage for the entire store.Truth be told, most of the building is new, the original brick walls were used (much prettier the the cinder block/stucco these places use now) and a new roof, windows, etc was all added. It is fantastic.

That would be a "TrollEy Barn*" Uptowngirl... (smile)   Which one? They have two in current use, St. Augustine had two and I strongly suspect Jacksonville HAD about 7, at least one of which I believe is still standing! (Sucks to be you JTA Skyway guys, you missed one and I ain't tellin')

In OKC Big-K did the same thing in a typical UGLY era shopping plaza that had a Southwestern regional department store in it that bellied up. They actually used the WHOLE store but knocked out the back and extended it, and tacked a big garden center on the side. I think they did the same thing in Edmond OK but I believe that one had a garage converted into a K-Mart Tire Center.  These stores were rather small like the local "Fred's" chain here and I couldn't figure out how in the hell, but they pulled it off nicely.

* Before the little wheel went trolling behind a streetcar on those electric wires in Richmond and St. Joseph, and became a troll-ey. They were called "Horse Cars" and at the end of the day, where does the horse go? BARN. The expression never changed even in modern Light Rail LRT the term remains with us.

OCKLAWAHA

I would also love to see a nicely renovated Ambassador Hotel. As already mentioned it is located in a relatively quiet and peaceful part of town, so a rehabilitation would make sense to me. Seems like you have to invest a lot but it's worth the money in my opinion. It's somehow sad that there are so many "ruins" thread in this forum, wouldn't have thought that we have so many sites that are considered as "ruins".

I think by "Ruins" they depict the buildings in their present state...in ruins.  The Ambassador , though I have not walked through it, certainly shows no signs of buckling and crumbling structure wise,, even though "Gentry" a poster on here seems to think the building is condemned and therefore automaticly will be demolished.   I do not get his reasoning or know if he ever walked through the building ( Im thinking just reading his postings , probably not)  but he seems adamate that the building will come down.

It is no secret that too many historic buildings have ended up in a landfill.. I , for one want this STOPPED and STOPPED FOREVER.   This includes Ambassador, the Remains of Genovar's, Annie Lytle , Fire Station 5, The Laura Trio ( hopefully that group is about to undergo restoration) ,Jones Bros Furniture, etc etc etc..

Enough!! Enough Razing of old buildings!  Any future Government in Jacksonville worth holding their seat, including City Council, needs to respect the relatively few remaining pieces of what remains, REGARDLESS of their respective present conditions, and work toward goals to bring these great pieces back to life.. IT CAN BE DONE.. IT GETS DONE in lots of other cites, and it should be done in Jacksonville.

I just stumbled across this forum,and Id like to add my 2 cents if I may? I worked in the ambassador until a year before they were shut down,and I knew every inch of that place well.And I'm here to tell you that as much as Id like to see it restored,I assure you that 8,10,or even 12 million wouldn't do it! There are whole floors that are literally eaten by termites,we got to where we would simply nail doors shut when something collapsed.I doubt there is one original feature left,it was pretty much stripped when i worked there,even the furniture was gone,most furniture in there came from other hotels the last owner had bought(heart of jax,robert meyer etc).Whole floors didn't have plumbing anymore,the basement had 3 feet of water in it for DECADES,the main elevator was closed because of frayed cables,and the elevator people told my boss it would cost 100s of 1000s to upgrade,we used the old freight elevator when I left.The picture that shows the main desk(from the robert meyer fyi)was where the main staircase used to be,I found the original plans in an old safe,it looked NOTHING like it did when built! Youd have to replace literally everything from the basement up,after you started by having the main plumbing redone in the basement! I'm talking wiring,plumbing,floors,windows,walls,probably even the foundation,wich again,has been sitting in water for decades.Theres simply no way you could do anything with the place for less than 30 or 40 million,trust me,there is simply nothing left.

So they would have to strip out everything, gut out everything, renovate, reconstruct and virtually rebuild the Ambassador.  I am not a contractor, construction ace, or a developer but based on what John CB stated in his post, a lot of money (millions and millions, upward to 100 million possibly) would have to be poured into this beast.  Probably in the best interests of the Owner to demolish it and sell the property and for someone else to construct some type of new development on it.

"HU"

I seriously doubt it will take $100 million to bring this place back to life.  However, historic preservation is expensive, which is why there are grants and tax credits at the local, state and federal levels for projects such as this. 

The fact that much of the plumbing, etc. is gone is actually a GOOD thing.  Normally, you would have to PAY someone to remove those very same things. $125-150 a ft ought to do the job.  Nearly every major renovation job takes the building down to the iron studs and concrete anyway. The furniture is totally irrelevant.  The only thing that sounds troubling is the flooded basement. 

The Carling, which was in very bad shape as well cost $20mm and it is much bigger in sq. footage.  $100 mm or even a third of that is preposterous.

I brought up the furniture as an aside to how completely devoid of character the place is,there is literally nothing,not a molding or a light fixture to be had.So really we are talking about saving the shell,and while I think thats great,I dont see how turning it into expensive lofts is going to benefit the community as a whole.

Quote from: johncb on August 24, 2010, 04:48:12 PM
I brought up the furniture as an aside to how completely devoid of character the place is,there is literally nothing,not a molding or a light fixture to be had.So really we are talking about saving the shell,and while I think thats great,I dont see how turning it into expensive lofts is going to benefit the community as a whole.

And exactly how does demolishing it benefit the community?

That's how it should be before a complete renovation. Take a look at the Barnett and Laura Trio.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/889006593_Eom8Y-M.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-inside-the-barnett-bank-and-laura-trio

Quote from: johncb on August 23, 2010, 02:31:11 AM
I just stumbled across this forum,and Id like to add my 2 cents if I may? I worked in the ambassador until a year before they were shut down,and I knew every inch of that place well.And I'm here to tell you that as much as Id like to see it restored,I assure you that 8,10,or even 12 million wouldn't do it! There are whole floors that are literally eaten by termites,we got to where we would simply nail doors shut when something collapsed.I doubt there is one original feature left,it was pretty much stripped when i worked there,even the furniture was gone,most furniture in there came from other hotels the last owner had bought(heart of jax,robert meyer etc).Whole floors didn't have plumbing anymore,the basement had 3 feet of water in it for DECADES,the main elevator was closed because of frayed cables,and the elevator people told my boss it would cost 100s of 1000s to upgrade,we used the old freight elevator when I left.The picture that shows the main desk(from the robert meyer fyi)was where the main staircase used to be,I found the original plans in an old safe,it looked NOTHING like it did when built! Youd have to replace literally everything from the basement up,after you started by having the main plumbing redone in the basement! I'm talking wiring,plumbing,floors,windows,walls,probably even the foundation,wich again,has been sitting in water for decades.Theres simply no way you could do anything with the place for less than 30 or 40 million,trust me,there is simply nothing left.

But the whole building is concrete and brick. The only thing that was wood were the fixtures, e.g. doorframes, ballisters, that kind of thing. The building is probably structurally fine, despite how ragged the owners were running it when you worked there. It will be an expensive renovation, obviously in the multi-millions, but $40mm is vastly overstating things don't you think?

Perhaps 40 million is overstating,but Im telling you all what I know for a fact.IF theres no damage to the foundations from being in water for decades,and IF theres no damage to the infrastructure itself,support beams etc,at the very least you will have to do a complete gut job,and you cant convince me that 5 or 10 million will do it.It cost me almost 5000 just to get a roof on my house!

Annie Lytle School has sat for 40 years with ZERO Building Maintenance done on it since the School Board owned it....when they finally parted with it in the late 70s , it was placed in a condemned status then.  That building is 46,000 +or minus , square feet,,.. in 2006 a price tag "approaching "  8 to 9 million to do a total renovation on it was the figure.. That building , compared to the Ambassador certainly appears to me to be in FAR WORSE structural condition, although no part of the brick or concrete is buckling , or crumbling yet.  At least the Ambassador has a reasonably sound roof system yet.  That coupled with the fact that construction has slowed and that contractors are hungry for work would lead me to believe in the case of both buildings, but particularly the Ambassador , that the renovation would not be 40 mm.. My guess would be 25-30 tops for loft conversion.  A big expense for both would be gutting,but the School has had help in that regard for decades with the on-going vandalism.  The Ambassador Looks pretty straight from the outside , to me.  My bet is it can and should be saved .   But then, so too should Annie. 

I want this place, along with kartouche.

You want the Ambassador and kartouche?

Walked by the Ambassador Hotel one night last week, saw a red light eminating from a rear window on probably the 3rd or 4th floor, the rest of the building pitch black, one of the more eerie experiences I've had.