Just curious, saw this in the Daily Record, anyone have any comment on spending so much for a boat for the JSO?
QuoteThe Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission will provide $184,242 for a 26-foot boat for the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office. The JSO’s Waterborne Response Team for Domestic Security will use the boat.
With all the confiscated boats available in a slow economy, did the State really need to purchase a NEW boat?
By the way- 'Daily Record' is Jim Bailey's effort.Jim is a Jacksonville Waterways Commission member....and potential mayorial candidate.
QuoteJim is a Jacksonville Waterways Commission member
And I hope someone asks him why he voted for a new boat when used boats were available.
Looking at that much for a 26 foot boat, I think you will find that it is one of the specialized law enforcement models that you wouldn't find among confiscated or used boats. It's probably one of those rigid hull, inflated tube models with a couple of huge engines that will do fifty knots in rough water.
The question is why is Fish and Wildlife providing a boat for JSO?
Searay? Donzi? Cigarette?
Man cannot live on bread alone.
He also needs an 80mph water toy to eat his bread on.
Err... It's to protect and serve. (the children)
This boat is part of a state wide program overseen by the Florida FWCC. The equipment and boats were selected based on what the teams were required to be prepared for and they are equipped the same throughout the state in order to ensure common training, techniques, etc. The teams are located around the state and in this region it rests logically with JSO. The funding is from federal grant money.
The question I have is not where the money came from, its WHY do you take it when you can find 26-foot hulls, and new engines, lines and equipment for a heckuva lot less? I know grants are restrictive and require people to follow the letter to the T, but it makes more sense to buy 3 boats with this money that could be rebuilt, that were impounded, than to buy 1 for that rediculous amount of money.
I know I am asking A LOT for a government employee to think, but we taxpayers deserve better management of our money.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 27, 2009, 11:11:33 AM
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QuoteThe Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission will provide $184,242 for a 26-foot boat for the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office. The JSO’s Waterborne Response Team for Domestic Security will use the boat.
With all the confiscated boats available in a slow economy, did the State really need to purchase a NEW boat?
It is a mistake to consider this to be only for the purchase of the boat. Often program money includes operational cost like fuel, maintenance, storage, etc. for a specific time. Then too, if it is trailer borne figure too the trailer and tow vehicle.
A specialized law enforcement boat with twin, high horsepower outboards and trailer cannot be found on the used or confiscated boat markets. A rig like this will cost in the neighborhood of $130,000 without electronics (add $10,000) and the rest of the grant is probably operational expenses for a period of time.
The grant from the Federal Government came through the FWC to JSO probably because they both have law enforcement authority over the local waters and FWC is grossly understaffed with enforcement officers.
If you want to question Federal spending on law enforcement then take a close look at the Federally funded militarization of local law enforcement. The only difference between the equipment of soldiers in Afghanistan and your local swat or DEA team is the color of their uniforms. Local police departments are even getting armored cars.
But that is a topic for another thread.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 28, 2009, 12:36:40 PM
The question I have is not where the money came from, its WHY do you take it when you can find 26-foot hulls, and new engines, lines and equipment for a heckuva lot less? I know grants are restrictive and require people to follow the letter to the T, but it makes more sense to buy 3 boats with this money that could be rebuilt, that were impounded, than to buy 1 for that rediculous amount of money.
I know I am asking A LOT for a government employee to think, but we taxpayers deserve better management of our money.
Well, I am just a dumb ole government employee, but I will try to explain myself here and them you can tell me how the "smart" people would have done it. These boats will have a number of missions, some of which involve placing Officers in harm's way at all hours and in all weather. Some missions require an extremely strong and resilient hull, radar stealth, load capacity , or other attributes that commercial or seized vessels do not have. The boats are also rigged, equipped, and powered to fullfill the mission requirements. The equipment is very specialized and the design is not mass produced. The equipment is purchased based mainly on strength and reliability, since in this arena your life will often depend on your equipment. Open water presents a unique tactical environment, where speed, stealth, and any cover you can find become very important in some situations. These boats were selected by people (yes, government employees) who do this for a living and have not just researched the subject, but have actually performed the missions. The boats and equipment as well as the entire project were reviewed by JSO, FFWCC, State of Florida, and the Department of Homeland Security.
Could we place Officers on a repossessed or seized 26 ft Trophy? Yes, we could. And when they die because of failure of their equipment, who do we blame? When persons are hurt or killed because the Police do not have the capability to get to them or resolve the criminal situation they were in, can we just say "Hey, sorry, we were trying to save some money." Stupid government employee's are a dime a dozen anyway, right? If a few get killed because of cheaper or used equipment, what the heck, we can just hire a few more of those morons, isn't that what you are saying? If I missed your point, forgive me, I'm a little slow. I have worked for government all of my adult life and it has affected me.
DW, if you wan't to start another thread, just say so. An Army squad and a Police squad are equipped VERY differently. Let me know if you need an explanation of the differences. And armor is a good thing, it keeps you from getting shot. When you are approaching a barricaded armed suspect over open ground, or trying to get to a gunshot Officer or civiian without getting shot yourself, an armored car is pretty handy.
NN, I obviously don't know enough about the subject to be a good participant on a thread. No objections from me about armor on our LEOs. I have TWO friends who would be dead today without it.
Maybe I'm watching too much TV, but it unsettles me a bit to see a squad with fully automatic long guns take down a door to arrest some punk drug dealer. Perhaps I'm just being squeamish and the overwhelming "shock and awe" works to keep anybody from getting hurt.
I also had an interesting conversation at a training camp a number of years ago with one of the FBI agents who SURVIVED the shootout with some bank robbers in Miami. The FBI had .38 revolvers and a couple of shotguns and the robbers had AK47's! That was the incident that moved the FBI to switch to 10mm semi-automatics.
Times change and I grew up in a less violent era.
Officers are provided long guns, but they are semi automatic. SWAT wields auto weapons but the nature of Police work generally calls for selective fire, and NO fire if at all possible. Without delving into a very specialized subject, please realize that the military has a very different mission from Police and they work generally in open fire environments where civil authority is usually nonexistent. Police on the other hand, have a responsibility to prevent death and injury including the criminal. Sometimes deadly force is used but it must be used in protection of lives. Officers do not use indirect fire weapons and have a wide variety of non lethal weapons to supplement extensive training in negotiation and non violent resolution. Although they may look similar, Police and military squads are trained and equipped in very different ways. What is the same is a dedicated man or woman in every one of those uniforms who is willing to move forward when threats arise.
Mtrain, please disregard my snippy answer as I should realize that you just don't understand what is involved here. I am often frustrated by apparent government waste as well but I have learned to educate myself on the facts before speaking on a subject that I shouldn't.
NN, so what I am seeing on TV, when US soldiers break down doors and enter a building in Iraq or Afghanistan is actually police work? Do those soldiers have some of the same training at clearing a building as our police forces do? I certainly hope so!
Since they are working in a environment with mostly civilians too, I guess they can't clear a room like my uncles did in WWII by tossing a grenade in ahead of them.
Sorry, I've pulled us off thread to satisfy my own curiosity.
If the TTP hasn't changed, then all civilians are called out before an entry team goes in in Iraq. If they take fire from a room or a hallway, they will not hesitate to use a grenade. If they can't clear it out that way, an AT-4 or Artillery or air power will work. Police in America don't do that. While soldiers do receive CQB training and the techniques for entering a structure and moving through it are roughly the same, the military functions in a far different environment.
The bottom line is that the military is employed to either kill people and break things, or prevent the enemy from killing us and breaking our things. The Police are to apprehend criminal suspects with the minimum possible injury to the suspect or others and minimal disruption of society.
My one experience in Medellin with the police SWAT team was mega cool.
We got a strange call at our apartment supposedly from a cousin, she was screaming rape, men's voices and other evil sounds were heard. My wife and her sister kept the caller as long as we could and got all the vital information in screams before the line went dead.
As police are well trained for many layers of kidnapping they dispatched a team to our apartment to stand in front of our complex, (they all feature walls and gates with armed security - vallet). Meanwhile a full blown entry team was at the cousins place just setting up as we arrived. Three distinct low key "booms," (like the Shuttle reentry) and they were inside a cast concrete, tile roof, steel door building! Front door, back door, center of building! Maybe 5 seconds? Charges blew off two doors, and another blew a hole in a bathroom roof-skylight. Once inside, NOTHING! Not a clue. When the cousin and husband arrived they were like WTF? Investigation later found the call came from Bogota, and was one of a series some college brats were having fun with. They got busted. Meanwhile, they covered us at home, at the cousins and followed us on the highway. Very good police work...
The cousins husband laughed (typical Colombian reaction) and told us, I hated those old doors and have been wanting to get new ones at the home center for years. He thanked the police for trashing them, then joked about making a duck pond of his open air "Roman Bath". Oh well... ends well...
OCKLAWAHA