(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2471/4046044717_041a36b1c8_b.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/4046044963_9d12ecc6a0_b.jpg)
I dont see where its using Proton Lab Staff or faculty. It is CC'ing Gerry Troy, who is an employee at Proton, and who is a board memeber at SPAR.
Aside from that, your making hay over a pretty run of the mill, rally the troops email.
To be honest, I don't see a problem with the emails or the contents....as for Jucoby and her intentions...I agree that they're not neighborhood friendly ones
"I like your plan and will support it fully and try to involve staff and faculty in the process."
Here he is referring to Proton Lab since SPAR does not have any "faculty."
I keep telling you "15 year old girls"
Quote from: Springfielder on October 26, 2009, 11:21:00 AM
To be honest, I don't see a problem with the emails or the contents....as for Jucoby and her intentions...I agree that they're not neighborhood friendly ones
So, if you are not "neighborhood friendly" then the troops should be marshaled against you, even though what you are doing is LEGAL?
I didn't say that nor did I imply that. I just don't see where her effort to have this 'veterans' recovery house is a plus for the neighborhood. I'm okay with the already established facilities, I'm just against adding more of a facility that's likely to have a high turnover of clients
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:23:34 AM
Quote from: Springfielder on October 26, 2009, 11:21:00 AM
To be honest, I don't see a problem with the emails or the contents....as for Jucoby and her intentions...I agree that they're not neighborhood friendly ones
So, if you are not "neighborhood friendly" then the troops should be marshaled against you, even though what you are doing is LEGAL?
It may be technically legal, but a lot of people in the neighborhood feel that this skirts the ideas behind limiting these types of facilities in the overlay.
If you want to be left alone, then stop supporting these under 6 style facilities, and run your business the way you say you do, and there shouldn't be any problems.
A halfway house, or a sober house, or whatever euphimism your using these days, simply isnt something most people in the commiunity want more of!
I recently emailed SPAR to suggest they bring you guys to the table to try to find middle ground to stop this stupid pissing contest, but the more I read your posts the more I realize there is no middle ground. You want to run your legal business, and then you want to find loopholes to run as many of these little quasi-sober houses as you can.
When you are ready to find common ground so that you can run your business and be 'left alone', let me know, and I will support you. Until then, realize, all you are doing by posting these emails is making the organization of SPAR be even less willing to work with you.
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
"I like your plan and will support it fully and try to involve staff and faculty in the process."
Here he is referring to Proton Lab since SPAR does not have any "faculty."
Ambiguous wording at best.
There are several issues here. First, having a home for a small number of veterans in the neighborhood, its legal and overlay issues. Second, the RED ALERT "controlled panic" that SPAR thrusts on the neighborhood. The third issue is using the Proton Lab staff and faculty for this "attack."
The first issue has been discussed many times here especially on the "boarding house" thread.
The second issue is alarming to me as I am the target of this attack and should be alarming to anyone who understands the nature of this sort of "call to arms."
Today you may not be a target...tomorrow you may.
Finally, enlisting the aid of the Proton Lab to do neighborhood business is dangerous for them. Afterall, they are a 501 C(3) and I seriously doubt that part of their mission statement is to provide staff and faculty to fight neighborhood battles. You would think they would want to stay above such political hot topics.
Quote from: Dan B on October 26, 2009, 11:41:28 AM
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
"I like your plan and will support it fully and try to involve staff and faculty in the process."
Here he is referring to Proton Lab since SPAR does not have any "faculty."
Ambiguous wording at best.
sent from a Proton Lab computer address
Quote from: Dan B on October 26, 2009, 11:40:25 AM
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:23:34 AM
Quote from: Springfielder on October 26, 2009, 11:21:00 AM
To be honest, I don't see a problem with the emails or the contents....as for Jucoby and her intentions...I agree that they're not neighborhood friendly ones
So, if you are not "neighborhood friendly" then the troops should be marshaled against you, even though what you are doing is LEGAL?
It may be technically legal, but a lot of people in the neighborhood feel that this skirts the ideas behind limiting these types of facilities in the overlay.
If you want to be left alone, then stop supporting these under 6 style facilities, and run your business the way you say you do, and there shouldn't be any problems.
A halfway house, or a sober house, or whatever euphimism your using these days, simply isnt something most people in the commiunity want more of!
I recently emailed SPAR to suggest they bring you guys to the table to try to find middle ground to stop this stupid pissing contest, but the more I read your posts the more I realize there is no middle ground. You want to run your legal business, and then you want to find loopholes to run as many of these little quasi-sober houses as you can.
When you are ready to find common ground so that you can run your business and be 'left alone', let me know, and I will support you. Until then, realize, all you are doing by posting these emails is making the organization of SPAR be even less willing to work with you.
Well said. Sheclown you're only hardening the opposition against you and the 'quasi-sober houses'.
Quote from: Springfielder on October 26, 2009, 11:32:51 AM
I didn't say that nor did I imply that. I just don't see where her effort to have this 'veterans' recovery house is a plus for the neighborhood. I'm okay with the already established facilities, I'm just against adding more of a facility that's likely to have a high turnover of clients
The house is going in there because there is a need there. Why don't they build shelters on Southside Blvd., or Ponte Vedra, or Mandarin? Because for whatever reason, there aren't a lot of homeless people there.
They tend to gravitate to urban environments, because there's more stuff to sleep under, there are public parks to sit around in, etc., etc. The homeless people are already there, it's not like they're going to be flying them in from Seattle to fill up this house. LOL!
Your decision at this point is pretty much whether you want them sleeping indoors or behind your house. They're still going to be there either way, and in fact large numbers already live in the area. I really don't really see the downside.
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:43:17 AM
Quote from: Dan B on October 26, 2009, 11:41:28 AM
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
"I like your plan and will support it fully and try to involve staff and faculty in the process."
Here he is referring to Proton Lab since SPAR does not have any "faculty."
Ambiguous wording at best.
sent from a Proton Lab computer address
Gasp!
QuoteThey tend to gravitate to urban environments, because there's more stuff to sleep under, there are public parks to sit around in, etc., etc. The homeless people are already there, it's not like they're going to be flying them in from Seattle to fill up this house. LOL!
Your decision at this point is pretty much whether you want them sleeping indoors or behind your house. They're still going to be there either way, and in fact large numbers already live in the area. I really don't really see the downside.
Yes, they gravitate to most downtowns in most cities...but they're also bused in from the beaches area.
As for whether or not we want them sleeping inside or in our parks, etc....so what, we should just sit back and continue to allow Springfield to be a dumping ground for more and more centers? No, we have more than our fair share, and we don't want more.
Quote from: Springfielder on October 26, 2009, 11:49:33 AM
QuoteThey tend to gravitate to urban environments, because there's more stuff to sleep under, there are public parks to sit around in, etc., etc. The homeless people are already there, it's not like they're going to be flying them in from Seattle to fill up this house. LOL!
Your decision at this point is pretty much whether you want them sleeping indoors or behind your house. They're still going to be there either way, and in fact large numbers already live in the area. I really don't really see the downside.
Yes, they gravitate to most downtowns in most cities...but they're also bused in from the beaches area.
As for whether or not we want them sleeping inside or in our parks, etc....so what, we should just sit back and continue to allow Springfield to be a dumping ground for more and more centers? No, we have more than our fair share, and we don't want more.
That sounds catchy, but it's ignoring reality. The homeless issue is already there...
You're not talking about bringing in more, this place will just give some of the ones who are already there anyway a chance to sleep inside, shower, and feel like human beings. Like I said, you make it sound like they'll be flying "extra" homeless in from Seattle to fill up this house. The reality is that they're already there, your choice is just whether you want them sleeping indoors, or behind your house.
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorThat sounds catchy, but it's ignoring reality. The homeless issue is already there...
You're not talking about bringing in more, this place will just give some of the ones who are already there anyway a chance to sleep inside, shower, and feel like human beings. Like I said, you make it sound like they'll be flying "extra" homeless in from Seattle to fill up this house. The reality is that they're already there, your choice is just whether you want them sleeping indoors, or behind your house.
Not true, most of the ones sleeping under bridges and such are the ones that don't use such facilities...so yes, it's highly likely it would bring more homeless to the area
Basically, in response to both the e-mail from Louise about Ju’Coby Pitman’s potential legal (as has been determined) low density group care home and Kharis’s one about “Red Alerts", Gerry Troy, from the Proton Lab (which means we can assume he is speaking for the people paying him while writing this e-mail), says “they are breaking the law, city ordinances and polices" (also proven not to be true) and that these people are predators and then says he will use the Proton Lab’s resources to get the word out.
Of course, Mr. Troy basically saying that he doesn’t want anyone to know he feels that way and to make sure everyone hides it makes it all OK then. I do wonder if all of the board members of the non-profit hospital that runs the Proton Lab feels that way about all those “predators†(most know them as non-profits) downtown.
Quote from: Springfielder on October 26, 2009, 11:55:21 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGatorThat sounds catchy, but it's ignoring reality. The homeless issue is already there...
You're not talking about bringing in more, this place will just give some of the ones who are already there anyway a chance to sleep inside, shower, and feel like human beings. Like I said, you make it sound like they'll be flying "extra" homeless in from Seattle to fill up this house. The reality is that they're already there, your choice is just whether you want them sleeping indoors, or behind your house.
Not true, most of the ones sleeping under bridges and such are the ones that don't use such facilities...so yes, it's highly likely it would bring more homeless to the area
One of the main issues with our local homeless population is that there are far more homeless than there are resources to address them. Not enough bed space, it gets awarded on a "lottery" basis, and then once they're lucky enough to get a bed in a shelter, they can only stay so long before getting the boot, because there are so many more of them that the charities are trying to spread limited resources around to.
The homeless are going to be in and around downtown and springfield anyway. That's the way it goes in every city, they gravitate towards urban areas. They're already there anyway. I highly doubt this will bring any new ones in.
It's the freakin' RED ALERT, the "controlled panic", the call to use city services to harrass legal homes and businesses that don't see eye-to-eye with SPAR... that is what should cause PANIC, controlled and otherwise.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 12:09:30 PM
Strider.
Im sorry on behalf of the reasonable people in the neighborhood that this little hobgoblin feels like its ok to lie, slander and libel you.
This kind of sleazy tactic, the outright mudslinging that is totally directed at creating hatred towards their neighbors is only another reason why the self serving little organization must go.
Are there any pictures of this cretin?
I would imagine on the Proton Lab web site. He is an administrator there.
Come on Dan. SPAR has never ONCE talked to us, except for that one time they tossed Joe out and banned him from the building.
Making us and others the focus of RED ALERTS is just plain WEIRD.
And using the Proton Lab is, quite frankly, shocking.
SPAR tactics, and one of its board members using his work email to receive *gasp* personal emails, not withstanding, the issue here is much bigger than that.
We keep hearing the mantra about 'a few people' who are directing all of this negativity. I assume this is being directed at me, or Louise, or one of any number of other people. Yet, almost every time I get into a conversation with someone in the community, the message is the same. No more special use facilities.
In fact, many people were pissed that SPAR capitulated last year in what can only now be called a shortsighted middle ground. I had several Womans Club members (who have a known disdain for SPAR) email me, and tell me they though SPAR dropped the ball.
So now we have people who hate SPAR, but who still believe that what you guys are doing is wrong for the community.
So now here we are a year+ later, and now we are at the point where there is mud being slung in all directions. In the end everything just ends up muddy.
SPAR has problems. Sure. Regardless, a great many people in Springfield has no want, need, or desire, for more facilities that cater to people who are recovering. I wont claim a majority, as someone here might because I have not take such a pole, but from just day to day conversations, MOST seem to be against them.
Attempt to marginalize Louise, or Claude, or whoever you want. But your wasting your time on me. I am not active in the community right now, and unlike Joe, I have no interest in making a martyr of myself on behalf of any issue right now. I will also not be discuss the merits or failures of SPAR anymore.
Classy move.
The reasonable thing would have been to call Mr. Troy first to get an explaination on his choice of wording in the email. I guess you don't do reasonable, do you Stephen?
QuoteThe email specifically said that the medical institutions would be behind this.
Actually his email states that he would be behind it ("I like your plan and will support it fully"). He doesn't say the Proton Lab would be behind it. And besides, perhaps he is just using his work email to receive personal emails. Roadking is right, it would have been much more appropriate to talk to him first.
Actually, it says he will "try to include" staff and faculty.
'Trying' to include someone is a far cry from having institutional support.
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
"I like your plan and will support it fully and try to involve staff and faculty in the process."
Here he is referring to Proton Lab since SPAR does not have any "faculty."
Fine...all this means is that he has a personal opinion and plans to share it with other members of the staff....most of us do this with our friends, family, and work colleagues.
Sure the guy should have probably used a different e-mail address (the original e-mail seems to have 2 listed), but I would bet that most of us have used our work e-mail accounts to send personal e-mails.
And as for Stephen calling the Proton Therapy Institute....this is reprehensible!
Yep... I just don't see how you can read so much into these emails your posting. By the time your done with them (how you view them) they really don't even resemble the actual email you posted. Anyway, have at it.
Again, this is what happens when you let yourself get worked up and react to a single email.
fine...so he's going to try and get folks on the staff "involved"....unless he threatens to demote/fire them if they don't comply, it is not a big deal.
So Metro Jacksonville thinks SPAR should disband, or at the very least Louise should step down as executive director?
I don't recall metrojacksonville taking a stand, what's posted are the opinions of it's members
Springfielder, if we're using the same logic as Stephen on the issue of the Proton Lab, wouldn't you say that they are...
Jason, if you don't see it on the front page as an actual article developed and posted by Metro Jacksonville, than MJ's board has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, every one has the right to participate and express their views in the discussion board. As proven in this thread, forum participants (you included) view this issue from varying angles. Nevertheless, MJ's official position on topics have nothing to do with the what goes on in the forums or personal opinions of individuals.
Quote
stephendare
« Reply #17 on: Today at 11:52:48 AM »
Quote
I think this is indicative of the SPAR WARS.
This organization, clearly has got to go.
Quotestephendare
« Reply #26 on: Today at 01:16:47 PM »
Quote
Cool.
Trying to marginalize people is a pretty mean thing to do, I agree.
Even during debates online.
But especially when one group just kind of decides that another group 'needs to go' just because they don't particularly like them.
Hello, Kettle, you're black... Love, the Pot.
Is it just me or does the metrojacksonville forums, mainly the Springfield section resemble this video as of late?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuYnqwa_CFY&NR=1&feature=fvwp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuYnqwa_CFY&NR=1&feature=fvwp)
Is that true Matt? So what was the final outcome?
QuoteQuoteJason, if you don't see it on the front page as an actual article developed and posted by Metro Jacksonville, than MJ's board has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, every one has the right to participate and express their views in the discussion board. As proven in this thread, forum participants (you included) view this issue from varying angles. Nevertheless, MJ's official position on topics have nothing to do with the what goes on in the forums or personal opinions of individuals.
exactly.
Awesome. Let's apply this same policy to SPAR boardmembers who may post on here from time to time (Lisa S, etc) and to Proton Therapy staffers. I don't recall seeing any of their personal opinions as expressed on here, or in separate correspondence, displayed on sparcouncil.org or ufproton.org as the organization's official position. What's enough good for Stephen should be good enough for everybody else...
I think that's what jason_contentdg was getting at (but they, jason_contentdg that is, can feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted).
Quote from: thelakelander on October 26, 2009, 02:21:12 PM
Jason, if you don't see it on the front page as an actual article developed and posted by Metro Jacksonville, than MJ's board has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, every one has the right to participate and express their views in the discussion board. As proven in this thread, forum participants (you included) view this issue from varying angles. Nevertheless, MJ's official position on topics have nothing to do with the what goes on in the forums or personal opinions of individuals.
And I have no doubt this is the case, I just think that courtesy would have been forwarded to other individuals that have never stated that they are talking for a particular agency, that they happen to be a part of.
Quote from: zoo on October 26, 2009, 02:29:54 PM
QuoteQuoteJason, if you don't see it on the front page as an actual article developed and posted by Metro Jacksonville, than MJ's board has nothing to do with it. On the other hand, every one has the right to participate and express their views in the discussion board. As proven in this thread, forum participants (you included) view this issue from varying angles. Nevertheless, MJ's official position on topics have nothing to do with the what goes on in the forums or personal opinions of individuals.
exactly.
Awesome. Let's apply this same policy to SPAR boardmembers who may post on here from time to time (Lisa S, etc) and to Proton Therapy staffers. I don't recall seeing any of their personal opinions as expressed on here, or in separate correspondence, displayed on sparcouncil.org or ufproton.org as the organization's official position. What's enough good for Stephen should be good enough for everybody else...
I think that's what jason_contentdg was getting at (but they, jason_contentdg that is, can feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted).
That is absolutely what I was getting at.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 02:32:43 PM
Zoo, again, welcome to the ballgame.
Lisa Simon's, Alexs, and your comments have always been taken as your own. No need to create a straw man argument that they havent been.
Stephen, I just thought you acted a little too early by making a phone call to the Proton Institute, letting them know that an employee was getting the entire faculty involved in the "Red Alert"...
Where is the email sent directly to the city officials from the Proton Lab, and not in the body of an email sent by Kharis, cc'd to city officials?
I knew there would be another thread started up after the others fizzled. I thought it would at least be Tuesday.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
The email was clear, and it was sent to the city as an official communication, from the personell director of the proton center, using the proton center email address.
There isnt any other reasonable interpretation of that for any of the city officials reading, recieving or acting on the contents of the email.
Unless you can think of some other way it would have been interpreted by City Officials, in which case, I am all ears.
I provided another interpretation in my posts a few pages back.
Why not just conduct a survey of springfield property owners and ask them if the want any more boarding houses, halfway houses, sober houses, Etc. If they want them so be it, if they dint want them so be it also. I would be a simple way to resolve this issue.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
The email was clear, and it was sent to the city as an official communication, from the personell director of the proton center, using the proton center email address.
There isnt any other reasonable interpretation of that for any of the city officials reading, recieving or acting on the contents of the email.
Unless you can think of some other way it would have been interpreted by City Officials, in which case, I am all ears.
Your kidding right. It is a SPAR Boardperson answering an SPAR related email from his work. Simple.
You know what sam. I agree. Perhaps it would be a good way to get the sence of a couple of other issues as well.
Alex has been wanting to do this for a long time on a number of issues.
I'll help...
Probably has to be a hard copy survey, but an electronic one could be put together rather easily, like this one:
http://igetitjax.com/ (http://igetitjax.com/)
Quote from: strider on October 26, 2009, 10:31:21 AM
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/4046044963_9d12ecc6a0_b.jpg)
Actually, whats clear is, that Jerry sent an email to Kharis. The rest isnt so clear, as neither the email headers, or even the to/from field of the email that Gerry sent is included in this email.
I know I am just a cable puller, but thats how I see it.
Then one side or the other will come out and say it was rigged! Maybe we could get Kimmy Carter out to oversee the whole process. He could also over see the SPAR elections.....
It would be very easy to verify the results. just inform the property owners that an independent audit will be conducted to ensure the results of the survey
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 01:53:36 PM
Well shouldnt he have called JuCoby Pittman before he went over her head and reprehensibly accused her of breaking laws and promoting lawlessness and trying to 'destroy the neighborhood' to the City Council and all of the authorities listed in the email?
No, it really would have been more appropriate to contact Ronald Mallett, Board Chair of Clara White Mission.
All I was proposing is a simple solution to what seems to be a complex problem for some people in the community. All the other stuff that stephendare listed has nothing to do with the issue. I am a big fan of the KISS method.
It should be independent of Spar or any other organisation in Springfield so no one can say it is a Spar thing or Sharp or whom ever.
Samiam,
I appreciate the effort, but it doesn't go to the heart of the issue. The point is that as long as what is there is legal, or what is proposed is legal, then these people have rights, too, regardless of neighborhood approval.
Everyone wants to be acceptable, but when the neighborhood is whipped up into a frenzy, a "controlled panic" over something which is legal and allowable, it just causes heartache for everyone.
Lets take this to a vote. which is the law of the land
While we are at it, let's vote to violate other civil rights too.
Just so I am clear, because this whole bullying thing still confuses me. Use normal channels to city officials, like email and phone calls, to try to get things done is bullying... calling the employers of people you disagree with, and posting 4 month old emails to stir issues back up... not so much?
The issue isnt the people in the houses, but the businesses that own houses themselves. Stop trying to muddy the issue. Keep in mind, None of the other facilities involved in the issue have made any effort to expand their presence, and none of them have had any problems with SPAR.
Also, I keep hearing the mantra "if its legal, then you have no right to challenge it"... If thats true, no law ever would be changed.
Dan, would you like to be the target of a RED ALERT? Don't you think that is rather frightening in this day and age?
Sam, perhaps we could take a vote on the color you ought to paint your house?
I swear, you anti-sparbanians seem to only see what you want to see. You damn a survey before you know what it says? I think it would be a good way to see how everyone in the hood feels about several valid subjects.
Matt, the RED ALERTS don't bother you?
Quote from: 02roadking on October 26, 2009, 04:07:20 PM
I swear, you anti-sparbanians seem to only see what you want to see. You damn a survey before you know what it says? I think it would be a good way to see how everyone in the hood feels about several valid subjects.
We have trust issues. BTW what other "valid subjects" have recently been brought up?
Quote from: 02roadking on October 26, 2009, 04:07:20 PM
I swear, you anti-sparbanians seem to only see what you want to see. You damn a survey before you know what it says? I think it would be a good way to see how everyone in the hood feels about several valid subjects.
I like the name Anti-SPARBARIANS as in Conan The Anti-SPARBARIAN.
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: 02roadking on October 26, 2009, 04:07:20 PM
I swear, you anti-sparbanians seem to only see what you want to see. You damn a survey before you know what it says? I think it would be a good way to see how everyone in the hood feels about several valid subjects.
We have trust issues. BTW what other "valid subjects" have recently been brought up?
Historic preservation, commercial corridor renewal, creek clean up, park clean up, roads caving in, facilities failing, crime... there are plenty of issues that are more important than halfway houses. Its too bad you guys cant stop agitating long enough to realize that.
I am not here to insult or sling mud at anyone. I have spent 23 years in the military to uphold the constitution and the bill of rights and find it offensive if someone thinks otherwise.
Civil and political rights are a class of rights and freedoms that protect individuals from unwarranted government action and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression
Quote from: Dan B on October 26, 2009, 04:17:53 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 26, 2009, 04:08:58 PM
Quote from: 02roadking on October 26, 2009, 04:07:20 PM
I swear, you anti-sparbanians seem to only see what you want to see. You damn a survey before you know what it says? I think it would be a good way to see how everyone in the hood feels about several valid subjects.
We have trust issues. BTW what other "valid subjects" have recently been brought up?
Historic preservation, commercial corridor renewal, creek clean up, park clean up, roads caving in, facilities failing, crime... there are plenty of issues that are more important than halfway houses. Its too bad you guys cant stop agitating long enough to realize that.
Of course we realize that Dan, we have been saying THAT all along.
Quote from: samiam on October 26, 2009, 04:19:25 PM
I am not here to insult or sling mud at anyone. I have spent 23 years in the military to uphold the constitution and the bill of rights and find it offensive if someone thinks otherwise.
Civil and political rights are a class of rights and freedoms that protect individuals from unwarranted government action and ensure one's ability to participate in the civil and political life of the state without discrimination or repression
And without neighborhood approval, if necessary.
Majority rule processes do not require consensus for group action. Instead, decisions are made by voting with a majority determining the position of the entire group. This approach has the advantage of being able to produce a prompt and clear decision.
This is obviously the same thing as chopping single family homes into many living quarters, a structure built for multi-family, with tenant separation walls, private kitchens, bathrooms, and zoned mixed use.
Can't wait to hear more...
At 3rd & Main, each space is an individual apartment or condo unit with its own bedrooms, bathrooms, kitchen and living room. If anything, its an extended stay hotel.
A hotel would classify as a commercial use. CCG-S is allowed all up and down Main Street. However, 3rd & Main is a PUD. A planned unit development is allowed to have its own special set of zoning requirements that are approved by the council.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 05:02:58 PM
Is the neighborhood zoned for an extended stay hotel?
I think thats a special use according to the overlay isnt it?
They had to submit for a PUD regardless, I believed and asked for any sort of variances at that time.
Knowing before construction began that they were going to be scaling back from original plans and maybe incorporating Proton Therapy patients, I would assume they got all of their ducks in a row.
Was there a public hearing for 3rd and main for its use?
Its not a rooming house by code.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 26, 2009, 05:04:52 PM
A hotel would classify as a commercial use. CCG-S is allowed all up and down Main Street. However, 3rd & Main is a PUD. A planned unit development is allowed to have its own special set of zoning requirements that are approved by the council.
Anyway, you can find out the PUD's exact uses by giving the planning department a visit or call, if they aren't already on COJ's website. Its all public record.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 05:07:04 PM
so its a rooming house, then.
Awesome.
Well seems like the best of all possible times to be redefining rooming house and group homes and treatment facilities doesnt it?
Does Bill Cesery know about this nonsense?
It is mutli-family construction regardless, even before looking at the extended stay aspect of it. Are you trying to compare the structure at 3rd and main to a single family residence operating as a rooming house?
12,165 posts would deem that statement false. They are at least meaningful to someone.
A rooming house is any building in which renters occupy single rooms and share kitchens, bathrooms, and common areas. The building may be a converted single-family house, a converted hotel, or a purpose-built structure. Rooming houses may have as few as three rooms for rent, or more than a hundred
Stephen, zoning-wise you're opinion, in this case, does not have a leg to stand on. 3rd & Main isn't a rooming house by any means, according to Jax's official adopted zoning ordinance.
It might seem that I live in a rooming house then. I have a few roommates,all of whom are professionals, and we share a 3,000 sq. foot house on Laura Street. When we lived in Avondale in a smaller home and it was never an issue, but we decided to give Springfield a shot. I never have consider myself a "rooming house" sort of person, and frankly thought I added more to the neighborhood than I detracted from it. If the neighborhood thinks we are not the right sort of people, I suppose we will gladly move back to Richmond Street or near when our lease is up.
I have not been in any of the rooms at 3rd and main, do they have there own bathrooms and kitchens
QuoteI have a few roommates
GG, if you use the term "few" correctly (to mean 3), than I believe your situation fits within the description of how many non-family members can legally occupy a single-family home. I think you could even have one more roommate?
If you have more than 4 un-related roommates, then I believe you would be in violation of the current law, and could be subject to enforcement of the law if someone issued a complaint through the City's Code Enforcement division. Hopefully that isn't the case, and you're enjoying living in Springfield!
Well if they have kitchens and bathrooms its by definition not a boarding house.
The equivalency your desperatly attempting to make is stupid.
Nobody is trying to shut down legally operating facilities (including Joe and Glorias). These are protected by the overlay.
If their facilities had a bedroom and kitchen for each and every client, I dont think anyone would have a single complaint.
Is 3rd and main only for temporary treatment or can anyone rent them
Quote from: samiam on October 26, 2009, 05:45:36 PM
Is 3rd and main only for temporary treatment or can anyone rent them
I believe anyone can rent them.
This is a strawman argument, and should be wholly discounted.
Quote from: zoo on October 26, 2009, 05:33:19 PM
QuoteI have a few roommates
GG, if you use the term "few" correctly (to mean 3), than I believe your situation fits within the description of how many non-family members can legally occupy a single-family home. I think you could even have one more roommate?
If you have more than 4 un-related roommates, then I believe you would be in violation of the current law, and could be subject to enforcement of the law if someone issued a complaint through the City's Code Enforcement division. Hopefully that isn't the case, and you're enjoying living in Springfield!
Jennifer, Oh, I meant Zoo (she often uses my real name), before you give advise about anything else, I suggest you go and learn about the subject. This has been covered here time and time again and yet, you, and to be honest, many others, fail to accept the actual truth. So you can't say I made it up, here is the actual e-mail to Louise DeSpain from Sean Kelly, containing the actual definition of what is considered a family. But thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to show once again how little truth comes out of the small group of people supporting SPAR Council in over this issue. Remember too that the Overlay does not cover this isue, it is done for all of Jacksonville.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2771/4047366599_c13c4e47d2_b.jpg)
You do see where it is actually FIVE (5) and under, do you not?
Joe, yeah, 5 and under.
QuoteIf you have more than 4 un-related roommates
That's what I said -- one post-er ("you" in my quote above, "GG" in the previous post I addressed to them, and their "4 un-related roommates." Last time I checked 1+4=5, or are you practicing some kind of "new math" to go along with your "new law?"
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2009, 05:02:58 PM
Is the neighborhood zoned for an extended stay hotel?
I think thats a special use according to the overlay isnt it?
The whole "special use" section of the overlay is problematic. I don't think it could stand any sort of legal scrutiny. Frankly, I don't see how it became a part of the overlay in the first place.
Quote from: zoo on October 26, 2009, 06:00:35 PM
Joe, yeah, 5 and under.
QuoteIf you have more than 4 un-related roommates
That's what I said -- one post-er ("you" in my quote above, "GG" in the previous post I addressed to them, and their "4 un-related roommates." Last time I checked 1+4=5, or are you practicing some kind of "new math" to go along with your "new law?"
and then let's look at your post, Zoo:
QuoteGG, if you use the term "few" correctly (to mean 3), than I believe your situation fits within the description of how many non-family members can legally occupy a single-family home. I think you could even have one more roommate?
If you have more than 4 un-related roommates, then I believe you would be in violation of the current law, and could be subject to enforcement of the law if someone issued a complaint through the City's Code Enforcement division. Hopefully that isn't the case, and you're enjoying living in Springfield!
Sorry, Zoo, I got confused and missed the "I think you could even have one more roommate?"
Still, I did just more or less answer your question then, didn’t I? But then again, I will still apologize for my mistake. You did sort of read the code after all.
And just for fun, here is an e-mail where a Springfield resident e-mails Louise a post I made on this forum when we were talking about the history of rooming and boarding houses.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2526/4047559909_03289891c5_b.jpg)
The comment was to show that what was once considered a very appropriate business is now not, but the function it once served has been taken over by similar types of businesses, which is the Bed and Breakfasts and the extended stay hotel, which, I agree, the 3rd and Main facility is nothing more than a extended stay hotel that happens to be in Springfield. And I also implied that just like the once “grand†Park View Inn, if the economy and business climate dictates it, both of those types of business will certainly take in a less “classier†clientele to pay the bills. So in the end, an extended stay motel is not much different than a rooming house, the difference is the code says you must have certain things. Does anyone believe that if the code said you only had to have a bath for every floor, that places like that would not get built today? (Assuming normal convention (the public) would generally accept a bath on each floor, which it does not today in this country, though it certainly once did.)
This e-mail is particularly nice as it includes that little quote from the August 7th, “SPAR Speaksâ€. Note the last lines that state that the overlay prohibits four (4) or Five(5) unrelated adults, which it does not, and contrary to the information provided by Sean Kelly a month or so earlier.
SSDD...
As to the possible low density group care home on Boulevard, as of a couple of weeks ago, it was still on. The HPC nor the Historic Department can not pass judgment on the use of this place. Comments made about how it was not legal were not true. It is not a “special use†and therefore an acceptable use with in the RMD-S zoning code. Even some of the requirements stated by Sean Kelly in a few e-mails were not correct and so, there is, as far as I know, no reason this facility will not open unless the owner herself decides not to open it for some reason.
SSDD? anything like HSUA? We both seem to have that particular problem sometimes.....
Anyone at all thinking of moving to the area should read this forum and know to stay the hell away from Springfield because it's full of little busybodies with waaaaay too much time on their hands. Everything has to be so damned black and white. I don't care if cancer patients and their families stay next door to me on a temporary basis. I do care if a bunch of freaking crackheads shack up there. Somehow in the minds of people here, that's a totally impossible scenario. If SPAR is a joke, the over-reactions here are the punchline.
Judging Springfield based on 4 or 5 posters here is weak.
Come to a neighborhood event. Maybe even a clean up, and you will see the real Springfield. What your seeing here is just the messy bits.
Quote from: Dan B on October 26, 2009, 05:44:41 PM
The equivalency your desperatly attempting to make is stupid.
Nobody is trying to shut down legally operating facilities (including Joe and Glorias). These are protected by the overlay.
If their facilities had a bedroom and kitchen for each and every client, I dont think anyone would have a single complaint.
Dan, thanks for stating that our house is protected (it is nice to hear it outloud), but it is not protected by the overlay. Home Away From Home is protected by its grandfathered status. That would occur anywhere in the city. The reasoning is that you cannot change the game plan on someone once they are in business and operating.
The "sober houses" are protected by the city as well, because they are legal rentals and we have ensured that they are, investigated the legality of it before we opened and etc.
The overlay, and the problems with it, are two fold. First, it is prejudical in tone, separating classes of legal business. Secondly, the overlay is "unenforceable" meaning that the city council passed something back in 2000, that it simply does not have the power to enforce. Check the new labor halls in the area for proof of that.
Basically, if a business can follow Jacksonville city ordinances and zoning codes, it can operate in Springfield. Throwing the overlay up as some sort of shield is going to get it seriously challenged and Springfield may lose it. And that would not be good for the neighborhood.
Also using false information about the overlay puts its very life in danger. SPAR needs to quit doing that immediately.
Quote from: thekillingwax on October 26, 2009, 07:03:25 PM
Anyone at all thinking of moving to the area should read this forum and know to stay the hell away from Springfield because it's full of little busybodies with waaaaay too much time on their hands. Everything has to be so damned black and white. I don't care if cancer patients and their families stay next door to me on a temporary basis. I do care if a bunch of freaking crackheads shack up there. Somehow in the minds of people here, that's a totally impossible scenario. If SPAR is a joke, the over-reactions here are the punchline.
Some say we are 16 year old girls. (There is probably nothing more powerful and frightening in the universe).
No one would ever accuse us of being dull or uninteresting. Springfield has never been for the faint of heart. That's for damn sure.
It is an unconventional place for unique people.
Wait......WAIT....Look what I just found! IT'S A EMAIL FROM THE BROTHER OF A SPAR MEMBER STATING THAT THEY WILL BE GOING TO BUY GATE GASOLINE LATER TODAY!!!!!!!
I can't belive they would be that dumb! Caught red-handed! Everyone knows that since this guys is related to a SPAR member, they probably share the same views. Heck, I heard they were twins! And by buying Gate Gasoline he is directly supporting Mayor Peyton and his corrupt, mafia-style, family business. It's no different that than just slipping a mob boss $40 bucks in a handshake to keep on his goodside!
So in all honestly.....let's get real............SPAR is filling up the coffers of ruthless organized crime.
And all of it's members are implicite! Just a bunch of criminals!
Hey guys, can I run this on the front page of the website? No? Ok, well then i'm going to start 10000000 threads about how horrible SPAR is. Then i'm going to find old emails, regardless of context and history, and plaster them on the threads. Then i'm going to call people's work and check up on them.....do thier bosses know that they are criminals?
Hmmm.....what's my next move. Should I throw tacs & nails in the driveways of SPAR members, while following them around 24/7 with a long lens camera?
No guys! This is NOT over-the-top, i'm just doing my duty!
This is getting pathetic.
Stephen is grasping at anything, ANYTHING, quite literally.
Trying to throw enough mud hoping something will stick.
Since common sense and reasonable arguments don't work with him, it's best to just ignore him as much as possible when it comes these issues.
He thrives on attention and getting a reaction out of people. Don't give it to him on these issues and he'll lose interest.
He and his 3 or 4 like-minded buddies can sit and circle, pass the peace pipe, and take turns going on about why SPAR is horrible until they fall asleep......wake up and do it agian the next day. That's fine, everyone has an opinion.
And everyone else can just watch.
It'll be like when Batman easedropped on The Penguin, The Riddler, & Poison Ivy.
I gotta go to work. =P
Quote from: fsu813 on October 27, 2009, 09:00:05 AM
Wait......WAIT....Look what I just found! IT'S A EMAIL FROM THE BROTHER OF A SPAR MEMBER STATING THAT THEY WILL BE GOING TO BUY GATE GASOLINE LATER TODAY!!!!!!!
I can't belive they would be that dumb! Caught red-handed! Everyone knows that since this guys is related to a SPAR member, they probably share the same views. Heck, I heard they were twins! And by buying Gate Gasoline he is directly supporting Mayor Peyton and his corrupt, mafia-style, family business. It's no different that than just slipping a mob boss $40 bucks in a handshake to keep on his goodside!
So in all honestly.....let's get real............SPAR is filling up the coffers of ruthless organized crime.
And all of it's members are implicite! Just a bunch of criminals!
Hey guys, can I run this on the front page of the website? No? Ok, well then i'm going to start 10000000 threads about how horrible SPAR is. Then i'm going to find old emails, regardless of context and history, and plaster them on the threads. Then i'm going to call people's work and check up on them.....do thier bosses know that they are criminals?
Hmmm.....what's my next move. Should I throw tacs & nails in the driveways of SPAR members, while following them around 24/7 with a long lens camera?
No guys! This is NOT over-the-top, i'm just doing my duty!
This is getting pathetic.
Stephen is grasping at anything, ANYTHING, quite literally.
Trying to throw enough mud hoping something will stick.
Since common sense and reasonable arguments don't work with him, it's best to just ignore him as much as possible when it comes these issues.
He thrives on attention and getting a reaction out of people. Don't give it to him on these issues and he'll lose interest.
He and his 3 or 4 like-minded buddies can sit and circle, pass the peace pipe, and take turns going on about why SPAR is horrible until they fall asleep......wake up and do it agian the next day. That's fine, everyone has an opinion.
And everyone else can just watch.
It'll be like when Batman easedropped on The Penguin, The Riddler, & Poison Ivy.
I gotta go to work. =P
Keep at it!! 10000 posts are only a few away ;D
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2009, 09:25:42 AM
fsu813
Again, I didnt start this thread, and I certainly am not grasping at straws.
But you are right, your time is better spent at work.
At the Proton Center, right?
Cause people at the Proton Center are the problem now? Wow. Unbelievable.
please just stop this madness!
Was going to give an equally smarmy comment in return to Stephen but saw TSU's request first so removed it.
Seems to be that this one applies for the treatment centers...
"Special uses. Special uses include residential treatment facilities, rooming houses, emergency shelter homes, group care homes, and community residential homes of over six residents. New special uses are not allowed in the district and existing special uses must conform to the standards set forth in Section 656.369."
That said, anyone has the right to request a change to zoning laws...in fact, the City has been engaged in comprehensive zoning re-write study for the last year or two...
But these changes don't happen in a vacuum...any rule changes must be adequately noticed (usually includes orange signs in the area) and a public hearing must be held.
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2009, 11:21:05 AM
The above is the Springfield Historic Overlay with all the permitted uses of structures.
I thought I would post it so that people arent having to guess or speculate.
Thanks to the City for this copy.
I don't see any permitted use for residency hotels.
Stephen, it was a PUD. It can have exceptions to current zoning as long as it applies for them, and is approved.
Seeing all of the time and effort that has gone into these post, would only that same time and energy have gone into a collective effort of cleaning up our blocks of trash and debris or lobbying the city to fix our pot-hole riddled streets, we could conceivably not only be in consensus, but actually doing something productive and proactive to create the sort of neighborhood most of us want Springfield to be.
I suppose I understand why this is an important discussion to have, but it's a shame more of these forums couldn't be about collective projects for improvement, and not just be a tangle-bang of derision, that I can not conceivably see solving anything, nor making any tangible "improvements".
I think at this point it is more than crystal clear what we do not agree on, can someone remind me again what it is that Springfield residents do agree on?
Gideon, this is such a small collection of the Springfield conversation. There's 2 other threads on the main page talking about some of the positives, the I love Springfield thread and the Main Street Enhancement thread.
At least we're a passionate neighborhood, no one can take that away.
As you can see, the Zoning overlay is not the best thing out there because it does not address (for or against) several types of urban uses. Hotels probably fall in that same grey area as new construction live work lofts. If so, applying for a PUD would be the current way to get this use allowed on a particular site.
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2009, 11:37:18 AM
And Im still not finding any provision as a special use.
Jason, these overlays were meant to preclude unspecified uses in the district.
Otherwise they would be meaningless.
But Im sure everyone was just speculating yesterday in a wild attempt to come up with an answer to the question: How can you be simultaneously for and against something at the same time?
And the answer, which no on really knows---was that it was a residency hotel. That was tossed out there in an attempt to make something stick.
Anyways, I just wanted to get the actual information out there so that we are all dealing with the same set of facts.
Then by all means dig deeper and hope like hell that what you're fighting for makes the neighborhood better.
I'm having a hard time following the "play-by-play", is the crux of the issue that the Proton Therapy center wants to use Historic buildings to house patients who come in from out of town?
I'm with Lake, I think, just have the Proton people apply for a special exemption PUD and be done. If they help to contribute to the neighborhood in a positive way, what is the argument?
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2009, 11:37:18 AM
And the answer, which no on really knows---was that it was a residency hotel. That was tossed out there in an attempt to make something stick.
Anyways, I just wanted to get the actual information out there so that we are all dealing with the same set of facts.
Give these guys a call and ask for a copy of the Lofts on Main PUD. That will give you all the zoning information you seek on this project.
COJ Current Planning
128 East Forsyth St., Suite 700
Jax, FL 32202
(904) 630-1900
I agree with all of those Stephen...
I think main street revitalization needs to focus on individual Mom and Pops stores, and not try to land any sort of chain at the moment. I think that's happening.
I would like to see more people involved with SPAR's board and more transparency.
There's going to be differences of opinions, but I at least think the ship should always be steered in a certain direction.
Preservation is key to contributing structures. I've never been in love with the "If it's over 50 years old it has to be preserved" way of thinking. Contributing has to go beyond its age. A badly designed building from over 50 years ago, is a badly designed building today as well.
Does SPAR speak for the residents of Springfield as a whole? I don't always love what RAP wants, but 80-90% of the time I agree with them. I do like the fact that lumineria will be 2 nights this year, not just 1, the Saturday and Sunday instead of just the Sunday.
Aren't 3rd and Main, condos/apartments? So they would be zoned multifamily and wouldn't fall under the same zoning regulation as a single family residence.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 27, 2009, 12:10:59 PM
Does SPAR speak for the residents of Springfield as a whole? I don't always love what RAP wants, but 80-90% of the time I agree with them. I do like the fact that lumineria will be 2 nights this year, not just 1, the Saturday and Sunday instead of just the Sunday.
no they don't thats why a lot of SPR residents aren't even SPAR members
From what I understand each unit would fall under zoning as a single family residence not the entire building
All it takes is a call to the planning department to get a copy of the actual PUD.
I don't think anyone seriously disagrees with the structures at 3rd and Main, or thinks they are bad for the neighborhood, with or without Proton patients.
Point is, judgments based on class such as good rooming houses (Proton Lab apartments) versus bad rooming houses (Joe and my legal rentals for example) are just bound to cause strife.
Rather than investigate any situation, SPAR Council attacks, spreads falsehoods, starts RED ALERTS and controlled panic, encourages complaints to code enforcement and other agencies, etc etc etc. Board members throw their weight around (Proton Lab will back this up) and etc.
This is all a waste of time.
Want reconciliation? Let's start by not calling us "predators." That will go a long way.
What we need are those Springfield residents who are middle of the road, willing to look at the facts of the law and the overlay, and are willing to mediate our way through this. A thankless and dangerous job, and to-date, I don't see any volunteers.
Until then, I don't really know what will happen.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2009, 12:38:58 PM
All it takes is a call to the planning department to get a copy of the actual PUD.
but bickering about it on this site is so much more fun ;)
Quotebut bickering about it on this site is so much more fun
And with just a few more pages, this thread will be more infamous than the Moon River Pizza incident.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
I don't think anyone seriously disagrees with the structures at 3rd and Main, or thinks they are bad for the neighborhood, with or without Proton patients.
Point is, judgments based on class such as good rooming houses (Proton Lab apartments) versus bad rooming houses (Joe and my legal rentals for example) are just bound to cause strife.
Rather than investigate any situation, SPAR Council attacks, spreads falsehoods, starts RED ALERTS and controlled panic, encourages complaints to code enforcement and other agencies, etc etc etc. Board members throw their weight around (Proton Lab will back this up) and etc.
This is all a waste of time.
Want reconciliation? Let's start by not calling us "predators." That will go a long way.
What we need are those Springfield residents who are middle of the road, willing to look at the facts of the law and the overlay, and are willing to mediate our way through this. A thankless and dangerous job, and to-date, I don't see any volunteers.
Until then, I don't really know what will happen.
well, someone posted on one of these threads (they are all the same now). that the only people that are qualified to do anything with/to/about springfield is chrisufgator, stephen, yourself and strider - basically, no one else need apply. looks like the positions have been filled.
Stephen Dare For Mayor!
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 03:57:49 PM
Stephen Dare For Mayor!
Hey, I already posted same back on July 14 in another thread. It's gaining momentum!
I agree. He should run!
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
Point is, judgments based on class such as good rooming houses (Proton Lab apartments) versus bad rooming houses (Joe and my legal rentals for example) are just bound to cause strife.
Just my two-cents here, and SheClown if you look at other posts I have voiced support for you and Strider in some of your posts. Onthis, however, I have to disagree. The Lofts at 3rd and Main is definately NOT a rooming house. They are individual apartments each self-sufficient and self-contained. they are designed to be occupied by a single family per unit.
Group homes, by the very definition of their name, are single homes in which multiple, non-related persons live. They are NOT apartments and were not designed or intended to be used as you use them (if your buidings were ORIGINALLY designed as apartment buildings, then please correct me).
I also understand that the homes you currently own and operate should be left as is. My only concern is that there not be any more homes of a similar ilk opened in the area. We have our fair share.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
Rather than investigate any situation, SPAR Council attacks, spreads falsehoods, starts RED ALERTS and controlled panic, encourages complaints to code enforcement and other agencies, etc etc etc. Board members throw their weight around (Proton Lab will back this up) and etc.
My opinion (and it is just that, my opinion) is that this all is a matter of you reap what you sow. Ill will, rude behavior, boorish attitudes and bullying -- on both sides of the playing field -- have led to irreconcilable differences. At some point EVERYONE has to stop pushing their own agenda, negotiate in good faith, give in a little and come to a mutually aggreeable solution.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
This is all a waste of time.
Yes it is. With everyone on ALL sides holding grudges and crying over milk that was spilt long ago. how about everyone act like adults, agrees to be open to each other's views, sits down at a table and sees what it would take to cohabitate in the neighborhood. Civilly, no shouting, no raised voices, no towering over anyone, no finger pointing, no name calling, no "you knowcked down my sand castle," no "your ruining the neighborhood." Reasonable, educated, civil discussion.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
Want reconciliation? Let's start by not calling us "predators." That will go a long way.
Without sounding like a jerk, I have to ask the question; are there predators living in your houses? If so, you will never live the lable down. Do these people need a place to live? Absolutely. Do we want that place in our neighborhood? Absolutely not.
People will always have a strong reaction to those who commit heinous crimes. They will always try to drive out those who are in recovery regardless of there good intentions. It is the neature of the human state. Is it right? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The bottom line is that you will never change that particular opinion.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 12:48:43 PM
What we need are those Springfield residents who are middle of the road, willing to look at the facts of the law and the overlay, and are willing to mediate our way through this. A thankless and dangerous job, and to-date, I don't see any volunteers.
Until then, I don't really know what will happen.
I guess you could call me a middle of the roader. I can see both sides of the argument, but strongly disagree to allowing more group homes into the neighborhood.
I would be happy to act as an arbitrator, but it wuld be much better to have a professional handle this. The biggest challenge is this: can everybody check their egos at the door and come into a negotiation in the true spirit of wanting a better neighborhood?
Gonzo, you are so right...
Wait, you only have 24 posts? Please strike my above comment from the record! ;)
Is there a middle road? Personally, I'm perfectly willing to let the facilities that have been grandfathered in stay without comment, or complaint.
However, the issue (Which keeps getting lost) is what Gloria is calling "sober houses" where they have 5 men in treatment living together, without guidance or in-house support, and in a residentially zoned house.
The overlay uses the number 5 to try to delineate between a roommate situation, and a rooming house situation.
Joe and Gloria have, in my opinion, exploited a loophole in the overlay to expand their business model.
So to back off that stance, and in an attempt to be reasonable about this, what is the middle ground?
Lets say everyone in the community were to go to SPAR and tell them to lay off... what is the trade off? What are Joe and Gloria willing to do? So far, they have been as rash and unbendable as SPAR because they feel they have the law on their side. SPAR similarly feels the law is on their side, and has asked the General Council for a decision on the current law (I have been told that there is NO proposed legislation, just lots of talk).
So, again I ask. What is the trade off? Whats to mediate? If SPAR backs off the issue, what is the other side willing to do in return?
Gonzo,
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
We do background checks and do not let sex offenders in our houses as a matter of policy.
As far as the 3rd and Main reference goes, I was attempting to quell a comment that got out of hand. Obviously, I did a poor job.
Hey Everybody...I think we have our first arbitrator!
I don't think it is checking egos, as much as checking hurt feelings...
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 05:57:54 PM
Gonzo,
Thank you for the thoughtful response.
We do background checks and do not let sex offenders in our houses as a matter of policy.
and for this, I thank you. Seriously.
Actually, back when I this whole thing started up, I asked you guys if you did that, I seem to remember getting an incredulous response from Joe about it. Im glad to see you are.
Thanks.
Found it. From July 2007
QuoteAs far as doing background checks. Yes, and no. Background checks work on those that are in the system, but many of these guys are not "in the system" per say. Some have criminal records, but who knows what they really did or didnââ,¬â,,¢t do. Getting arrested was sometimes a survival thing. Have we had someone who killed a guy in a bar fight? Yes, but he served his time. Sex offenders? Possibly. We try to screen for that and have refused entry based on the location of the Bridge, but not all offenders in the system like you think they are. Bottom line - we offer a new beginning. We canââ,¬â,,¢t judge someone based on what they did or didnââ,¬â,,¢t do using. We try to judge them on how they are sober. Sometimes they are asked to leave and sometimes guys are told they are not welcome, sober or not. But that is more based on our experience with them as an individual rather that a ââ,¬Å"background checkââ,¬? type thing.
Dan, the city ordinances say that five people living together in a family situation is a family, related or not. It is not the overlay.
This group of people can live in a single family home. It is considered a family.
This is what we have done. Where is the "loop hole?"
Quote from: Dan B on October 27, 2009, 05:55:45 PM
Is there a middle road? Personally, I'm perfectly willing to let the facilities that have been grandfathered in stay without comment, or complaint.
However, the issue (Which keeps getting lost) is what Gloria is calling "sober houses" where they have 5 men in treatment living together, without guidance or in-house support, and in a residentially zoned house.
The overlay uses the number 5 to try to delineate between a roommate situation, and a rooming house situation.
Joe and Gloria have, in my opinion, exploited a loophole in the overlay to expand their business model.
So to back off that stance, and in an attempt to be reasonable about this, what is the middle ground?
Lets say everyone in the community were to go to SPAR and tell them to lay off... what is the trade off? What are Joe and Gloria willing to do? So far, they have been as rash and unbendable as SPAR because they feel they have the law on their side. SPAR similarly feels the law is on their side, and has asked the General Council for a decision on the current law (I have been told that there is NO proposed legislation, just lots of talk).
So, again I ask. What is the trade off? Whats to mediate? If SPAR backs off the issue, what is the other side willing to do in return?
Joe and I have a tremendous amount of knowledge on this whole issue, rooming houses, family definitions, the overlay. We have spent years studying it, for obvious reasons. We have talked to lawyers about it, paid lawyers for information and etc.
We know a lot of the players in the neighborhood.
We spoke at a community meeting years ago and suggested we be involved in the whole "out of control rooming house situation" and I was actually laughed out of the room. It was one of the more humiliating experiences of my life.
The offer still stands. In spite of hurt feelings. I know all of the rooming house owners, I have been in most of the houses. Joe and I could bridge a gap. However, if Joe and I are the problem, well...then there you have it.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Dan, the city ordinances say that five people living together in a family situation is a family, related or not. It is not the overlay.
This group of people can live in a single family home. It is considered a family.
This is what we have done. Where is the "loop hole?"
So then, no, There is no middle ground?
Quote from: Dan B on October 27, 2009, 06:09:36 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Dan, the city ordinances say that five people living together in a family situation is a family, related or not. It is not the overlay.
This group of people can live in a single family home. It is considered a family.
This is what we have done. Where is the "loop hole?"
So then, no, There is no middle ground?
I am confused. Gonzo?
As long as you are saying that we cannot exist where legally we are allowed to exist, then how can we find middle ground?
Not only do we follow the law, but we are covered under the Fair Housing Act.
You don't get a vote as to whether or not you want us. The city and the federal government say we can stay.
Its not a matter of you not existing. Its a settled issue, that your licenced facility on Pearl is grandfathered in.
Beyond that one house is where the issue is.
If it were a settled issue, then this discussion wouldn't still be happening.
So, you don't believe we exist, legally?
Let’s try this for middle ground. SPAR Council backs off their smear campaign, gives up on their attempts at finding a way to change the laws to get rid of us and we go about our business and leave them alone. We continue to insure that our houses are well maintained, the renters are good neighbors and we continue to check on our houses regularly as we do now. We also will agree to leave the overlay alone as long as you leave us alone and allow us to continue to operate our legal businesses in peace. Oh, and a public apology for the all the times they lied about us might be nice too.
Not much chance of that, is there? So, here we are and here we stay, vigilant and ready to counter whatever they may dream up next. If this attack, which seems to be “get them at what ever the cost, regardless of truth and fairness“, continues, then all is fair game. The choice has always been theirs. To accept the truth, to actually follow the laws themselves and to accept everyone who lives in the community or to continue as they have. Which do you think it will be?
Its not a matter of whether or not I think you have the right to exist. I think the issue is unsettled.
I personally do not believe it should be allowed, but unlike other posters on here, I dont believe the world revolves around me.
Truth be told, I really almost dont care about the 5 person 'sober houses', except that there is now a model that can be replicated by others, like JuCoby Pittman.
I dont believe that you and Joe have it out to make Springfield a bad place, but I believe there are others who could care less what kind of swill they put here.
I HOPE that some sort of a compromise can be had with the 'sober houses', that disallows that model to be used again, but in the end, it wont be decided by me, and my opinion is just that... my opinion.
...and this is a place where we can begin a conversation, Dan.
Strider,
what "smear campaign"? Are they actively posting on MetroJax about how horrible you are, or is it the other way around?
They do thier work behind the scenes, for the most part. They didn't publicize thier emails, you dug them up. SPAR is allowed to communicate with thier members without being accused of a "smear campaign" right? They are allowed to express thier opinion to thier elected officails, right?
As are you. The only difference is that SPAR wouldn't dig up your old emails and try and start a public propaganda war against you.
If you feel they have, then the most logical place to look would be thier Weekly Newsletter, since this is how they communicate with all thier members.
Is it there? No.
What about the paper News Letter sent our every couple of months? Is it in there? No.
Hmmm......so if SPAR is trying to launch a massive smear campaign they aren't doing a very good job.....
working privately to achive thier goal, yes. a public smear campaign, no.
while you could be doing the same thing, working with others behind the scenes to achive a goal, you instead attempt to make it as messy and loud as possible, repeatedly mistating the "issue" SPAR has with you. Purposely i suppose, to draw sympathy.
do you think you've persuaded anyone?
I agree with most others in stating that the rehab homes you have now are fine. but we don't want new / additonal rehab homes/boarding houses.
that's the issue.
especially since not all owners of such houses will run them as well as you do yours.
Now as far as "finding a middle ground", my understanding is that this was done sometime ago. SPAR agreed not to pursue the issue any further, your existing rehab houses were fine, as long as you don't open new ones.
but that agreement went out the door when you found a way to open new ones legally. so the loophole is legal, but goes against the sentiment of the law when it was written.
well, that pisses some people off, understandabley. Not me personally, b/c i can't blame you for trying to take advantage of the loophole.....everyone tries to find loopholes in taxes, speeding, double coupons, etc. But when a loophole is revealed, don't be surpised when it's eventually addressed.
I've got a question. How much money do you stand to make or lose if the zoning/overlay law is changed?
I don't have a direct finanical interest in this, neither does SPAR. but you do, so i think it's a fair question to ask. what do you have to gain?
I think Louise saying Joe threatened her and then mailing a copy of Claude's letter banning Joe from the SPAR building to city council members, General Counsel, city department heads and saying "this is the type of person we are dealing with" is pretty ugly.
I could go on. In about every third email she or Claude mentions Joe by name.
We earn enough to keep our houses out of foreclosure.
The last thing this neighborhood needs is another couple sitting idle.
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 06:14:39 PM
Quote from: Dan B on October 27, 2009, 06:09:36 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Dan, the city ordinances say that five people living together in a family situation is a family, related or not. It is not the overlay.
This group of people can live in a single family home. It is considered a family.
This is what we have done. Where is the "loop hole?"
So then, no, There is no middle ground?
I am confused. Gonzo?
See, this is what I meant when I said both sides need to back down. Keep in mind I am trying to see eye-to-eye here...
Strider you say the law is on your side. But, just because something isn't illegal does not necessarily mean you should do it. An example would be that it is not illegal to smoke but, it is well documented that it is not only bad to you, but can cause serious illness to others through consequences of the behavior.
SPAR, on the other hand, should act responsibly and loose the holier-than-thou attitude. The neighborhood consists of many types of people. Rich, poor, black, white, young and old. Coexistence with all should be a paramount directive. While another of their goals should be to assist businesses it also has a duty to limit the density of certain types of business in a responsible and ethical manner.
It seems that the posturing both sides are exhibiting is a big portion of the problem. Someone felt threatened so they pushed back whether that was unintentionally overshadowing someone or by writing a letter is immaterial. Everyone took it too far. There is bad blood and no one seems to want to see past it. Shades of the Hatfields and McCoys!
Middle ground:
Strider, continue to operate your current houses in a responsible manner, but do not open any more within the neighborhood. Accept that the overlay will be changed to prevent further homes of this nature from opening. This does not prevent you from expanding your business it merely prevents you from doing it in Springfield.
SPAR, get off Strider's back. Allow him to operate his legal businesses free from harassment. But, continue to work towards preventing further group homes from opening. Ethically operate the organization in complete transparency and in accordance with all bylaws.
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2009, 06:07:02 PM
The real issue which keeps getting missed is that SPAR is acting predatorily.
That can't be fixed by making the victims defend themselves, and such an approach is silly.
SPAR does not need to be asked to 'LAY OFF" by its handful of members.
It needs to become a positive agency for change and not put itself in these types of situations.
After looking over the letters that started this whole thread, I have to ask what is predatory about them? It seems to me that they are emails from concerned citizens to other concerned citizens about a topic of great concern.
The supposed issue with The Proton Beam people is a non-issue. Have you never spoken to a co-worker and asked them to support something you feel strongly about? It happens daily in my office. And, yes, company email is used.
The issue is that a large majority of Springfield residents do not want more rooming/boarding/recovery houses in the neighborhood. And they have every right to do lobby to prevent more from opening just as proponents have the right to lobby for them.
Brass tacks time fellas. There are those on this board who have a serious spilled-milk complex. While I do not always agree with SPAR -- and, indeed, have not renewed my membership for that reason -- I agree that we do not need more group homes. And while I do not want more group houses I think that the ones that are currently operating legally and ethically should be allowed.
Once again I say, act like adults, sit down at a table and talk it out. There is middle ground but both sides have to be willing to give. And none of that, "his half of the cookie is bigger than mine."
Quote from: sheclown on October 27, 2009, 08:20:49 PM
We earn enough to keep our houses out of foreclosure.
The last thing this neighborhood needs is another couple sitting idle.
Does that mean that this is a side business for you?
Yes
I'll say this: I've never been pro-SPAR. We've had run ins with them in the past and I usually don't care about their goals. When all this business with the group homes and crap started, I felt bad for those involved but the past few weeks of activity here have made my opinion of the folks involved in the group home trade do a complete 180. The dragging out of emails and constant attacks makes you look pathetic.
And do you honestly think people would rather have more group homes than an empty house? Especially when you're wielding your rehab huts like a weapon? Don't mess with us or we'll open more? Really? What happens when something else doesn't go your way- will you threaten to mismanage your properties? Purposefully house dangerous people?
You want a real starting point? How about all the parties involved get the hell out of my neighborhood and leave us sane, quiet people alone?
QuoteFSU813: what "smear campaign"? Are they actively posting on MetroJax about how horrible you are, or is it the other way around?
A definition: A smear campaign is an intentional, premeditated effort to undermine an individual's or group's reputation, credibility, and character. "Mud slinging", like negative campaigning, most often targets government officials, politicians, political candidates, and other public figures. However, private persons or groups may also become targets of smear campaigns perpetrated in schools, companies, institutions, families, and other social groups.
Smear tactics differ from normal discourse or debate in that they do not bear upon the issues or arguments in question. A smear is a simple attempt to malign a group or an individual and to attempt to undermine their credibility.
Smears often consist of ad hominem attacks in the form of unverifiable rumors and are often distortions, half-truths, or even outright lies; smear campaigns are often propagated by gossip spreading. Even when the facts behind a smear are shown to lack proper foundation, the tactic is often effective because the target's reputation is tarnished before the truth is known.
Smears are also effective in diverting attention away from the matter in question and onto the individual or group. The target of the smear is typically forced to defend his reputation rather than focus on the previous issue.
Smear tactics are considered by many to be a low, disingenuous form of discourse; they are nevertheless very common.The problem is, SPAR Council has indeed done this, whether they just did it through their newsletter, e-mails to city officials and word of mouth, they still did it. While you could argue that we have done the same thing, the big difference here is the we actually used the truth and what we said about SPAR Council has been verifiable.
QuoteThey do thier work behind the scenes, for the most part. They didn't publicize thier emails, you dug them up. SPAR is allowed to communicate with thier members without being accused of a "smear campaign" right? They are allowed to express thier opinion to thier elected officails, right?
As are you. The only difference is that SPAR wouldn't dig up your old emails and try and start a public propaganda war against you.
Of course they can express their views to their membership and city officials. One would hope though that they would actually tell the truth when doing so. Using misinformation, exaggerations and out and out lies to further your way of thinking to your membership is bad, to do so with city officials is horrendous. If this is a war, SPAR Council started it over a year ago when they elected to call code enforcement multiple times. Even when we were found to be legal. They never picked up a phone.
QuoteIf you feel they have, then the most logical place to look would be thier Weekly
Newsletter, since this is how they communicate with all thier members.
Is it there? No.
What about the paper News Letter sent our every couple of months? Is it in there? No.
Actually, some of it is. Perhaps when the failed to send them to me, a paid up member, they also forgot to send them to you? August 7th SPAR Speak is one that somehow didn’t make it to the front page of the website nor to my mail box. Did it make it to yours? Did you notice the lies about the overlay in it?
QuoteHmmm......so if SPAR is trying to launch a massive smear campaign they aren't doing a very good job.....
working privately to achive thier goal, yes. a public smear campaign, no.
In politics, back rooms filled with heavy cigar smoke is a common theme. A back room , behind the scenes smear campaign filled with lies and innuendo fits right in with the SPAR Council mentality. Or did you forget that these same “innocent†few who we are “smearing†so badly have totally forgotten that they too are supposed to follow the laws.
Quotewhile you could be doing the same thing, working with others behind the scenes to achive a goal, you instead attempt to make it as messy and loud as possible, repeatedly mistating the "issue" SPAR has with you. Purposely i suppose, to draw sympathy.
No misstating, or did you miss the e-mails, SPAR Speak quotes , copies of the by-laws, ETC that has gone along with all of the posts in the various threads over the past months?
Quotedo you think you've persuaded anyone?
Don’t know. I would hope that some will read the truth and get it. Others will not.
QuoteI agree with most others in stating that the rehab homes you have now are fine. but we don't want new / additonal rehab homes/boarding houses.
that's the issue.
No, it isn’t. No matter how you try to spin it, it is the people you don’t like in your neighborhood. It isn’t the businesses, it isn’t even me and she clown (though we do seem to be the poster children of whom they do not like) it is the people themselves. You do not like them, you do not trust them, perhaps you even fear them.
And we are not talking about a treatement facility nor a half way house nor even permissible and accepted by the overlay low density group care homes, we are talking about a simple rental. With five unrelated adults living in it. Who have as much right to be here, and if we go by some of the posters opinion of whom should be allowed in Springfield, then they may have even more right to be here than you do. Some of these guys, these transients who bring nothing good to Springfield, if you listen to some here, have been living in their HOMES for 2 years or more. If SPAR Council had their way, they would be out of their HOMES and in the streets
Quoteespecially since not all owners of such houses will run them as well as you do yours.
Thank you for the compliment. We are decent landlords.
QuoteNow as far as "finding a middle ground", my understanding is that this was done sometime ago. SPAR agreed not to pursue the issue any further, your existing rehab houses were fine, as long as you don't open new ones.
but that agreement went out the door when you found a way to open new ones legally. so the loophole is legal, but goes against the sentiment of the law when it was written.
Here we have an issue. No one considers even the low density group care homes allowed in Springfield by the overlay, let alone a simple single family rental a special use, except of course for you and Dan and a few others along with SPAR Council. Go back and read the overlay, read the codes and learn what is right and wrong with your statements above. None of the actual Special Uses have expanded against any law or through any loophole.
Quotewell, that pisses some people off, understandabley. Not me personally, b/c i can't blame you for trying to take advantage of the loophole.....everyone tries to find loopholes in taxes, speeding, double coupons, etc. But when a loophole is revealed, don't be surpised when it's eventually addressed.
Well, how is that all working out for them? And you?
QuoteI've got a question. How much money do you stand to make or lose if the zoning/overlay law is changed?
I don't have a direct finanical interest in this, neither does SPAR. but you do, so i think it's a fair question to ask. what do you have to gain?
Actually, everyone has a financial interest in this and every issue in Jacksonville.
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2009, 09:34:58 PM
the beginning point of this conversation should be two resignations and a date for new elections if SPAR wants to be taken seriously by the greater community ever again.
It is possible that heartfelt apologies would be enough, but I doubt there is enough character present to make that a reality.
Again, that's not really in the spirit of negotiation is it? You cannot have a dialog unless you are willing to concede some points.
While I respect your right to call for resignations or demand apologies, I keep coming back to the, "if I don't get my way I am going to take my toys and leave," mentality. Really? This is an adult conversation?
The facts are that things have been done on both sides of the issue that are regrettable. SPAR may have crossed lines it should not have. Stephen, you are using this board as a personal tool to advance your anti-SPAR agenda.
Adults can see and say that. They can also work to make things better WITHOUT issuing ultimatums.
No one likes us posting the e-mails…is it because they think it rude or is it because then no one can hide behind the lies anymore? Don’t like the mud slinging? Don’t read the thread. Don’t like us? Oh, well. Join the group, it forms behind SPAR Council. Louise is probably at the head of the line.
QuoteGonzo: Middle ground:
Strider, continue to operate your current houses in a responsible manner, but do not open any more within the neighborhood. Accept that the overlay will be changed to prevent further homes of this nature from opening. This does not prevent you from expanding your business it merely prevents you from doing it in Springfield.
SPAR, get off Strider's back. Allow him to operate his legal businesses free from harassment. But, continue to work towards preventing further group homes from opening. Ethically operate the organization in complete transparency and in accordance with all bylaws.
I suppose we could have been good little past residents and current home owners and not stood up to the bully tactics that SPAR Council likes to use, but we weren’t built that way. We are not going to abandon the rights of the guys who rent from us because Louise DeSpain says we should. I suppose that is one of the reasons why we are attacked, why my name is used in almost every e-mail about the subject of rooming houses (please note, I do not own any rooming houses, but I have thought about buying one once or twice…) sent to the city officials.
Gonzo, I don’t know who you are, but I think you have a lot to learn about the few at the top of SPAR Council. Say we did make some sort of compromise, how could we possibly trust SPAR Council, headed by a few who can not even follow their own by-laws, to keep that agreement? They tell all who will listen that we didn’t keep the last agreement, but go ask the city if we did or didn’t. The only one saying we didn’t is SPAR Council. After we (and several who have posted against us here recently) braced them over the election and by-laws issues.
One would think that after seeing how often my name comes up in these e-mails that SPAR Council and my detractors would have horrible things to report about our rental houses. Yet, some have said they were well run. The truth is, they are. The truth is also, these few still do not like the people who live in them. Oh, and as a side note, the house we rent outside of Springfield was turned in as well…by SPAR Council.
There is only a need to change the overlay to eliminate future “homes like this†in the minds of a few. You say group homes, but in reality, groups homes are not the issue. There is already a category for “special Uses†of which high density group residency homes are a part of, but when the overlay was written, it was recognized that not only did high density group care homes created an issue if too many were allowed into one area, it also recognized that low density group care homes were not an issue and so were left out of the “special Uses†and allowed in most of Springfield. Some minor restrictions were placed on them, but nothing too limiting. Then realize that what we have are not even low density group homes, but simple single family rentals.
The real fear here is that if SPAR Council has it’s way, then these guys will not have a home anymore. After we are gone, who is next? College kids because they make too much noise? Four young school teachers sharing a house because they have young men over once in while? Who decides what is a permissible use once the first change is made?
We know the law, we know what has been said, we know what has been planned and we will not accept less than preserving the rights of the men and women who need those rights the most.
QuoteStephendare: I do however have a pro Springfield agenda, and the leadership of SPAR is at cross purposes with the needs and welfare of the neighborhood.
Thanks for an early morning dose of ridiculousness. Your hyperbolic statements, and your repetitive references to majority/minority opinions, give me reason to chuckle throughout the day. Further, your contribution to credibility for "your side" of the discussion is invaluable -- keep it up!
Gonzo, thanks for weighing in and suggesting finding middle ground. After reading the most recent posts from Strider and Stephendare, do you still think it's possible?
It seems these post-er's "middle ground" is "let me buy, renovate, and fill with 5 un-related, recovering persons as many properties in this District as I'm financially able" and "I'd like to decide how Springfield should revitalize," respectively. Anyone, other than the 4 whose opinion we already know well, think Springfield should meet at this "middle ground?"
Without going in more circles of who is right or wrong, can someone help a non-Springfield resident understand all of this. Please correct me if any of this is wrong.
From what I have read there are group homes providing living for people recovering from different things that have been grandfathered into the neighborhood. These are specially licensed to operate in this fashion.
There are also single family homes being shared by five or fewer people that are in some form of recovery, which is legal according to the overlay laws, and does not require any special permitting.
Just a ballpark figure, how many of these type of houses are there like this in Springfield?
Also as someone considering buying in the neighborhood, is there a way to confirm whether a house is operating as a recovery house?
Quote from: strider on October 27, 2009, 10:28:43 PM
There is only a need to change the overlay to eliminate future "homes like this" in the minds of a few. You say group homes, but in reality, groups homes are not the issue. There is already a category for "special Uses" of which high density group residency homes are a part of, but when the overlay was written, it was recognized that not only did high density group care homes created an issue if too many were allowed into one area, it also recognized that low density group care homes were not an issue and so were left out of the "special Uses" and allowed in most of Springfield. Some minor restrictions were placed on them, but nothing too limiting. Then realize that what we have are not even low density group homes, but simple single family rentals.
The real fear here is that if SPAR Council has it's way, then these guys will not have a home anymore. After we are gone, who is next? College kids because they make too much noise? Four young school teachers sharing a house because they have young men over once in while? Who decides what is a permissible use once the first change is made?
We know the law, we know what has been said, we know what has been planned and we will not accept less than preserving the rights of the men and women who need those rights the most.
Again, I reiterate, I am not against you or Stephen, I just think that you need to ease up on the militant rhetoric.
Let's take alook at the single-family rentals. Again I refer to my analogy of smoking - just becasue something is legal does not mean it is a good thing. A question that comes to mind is: does each individual have a seperate, one-year lease or is this a month to month rental? A month to month rental allows for a lot of tranciency. Which is something that is definitately detrimental to the fabric of the neighborhood. We have plenty of transients already. And, while your argument of a group of college kids or school teachers living together is valid, it does not truly address the issue; college kids and school teachers are not recovering alcoholics or drug addicts who have the potential of bringing more of those elements into the neighborhood just as we are trying to usher them out.
I would also like to ask what your requirements for residency in one of your hoses is? You have already stated that you subject potential residents to background checks, for this I truly thank you. However, what follow-up requirements do you have? Are your residents required to submit to periodic drug and alcohol screenings? If so, I commend you for that. If not, I wonder why not? If these houses are meant to places of recovery wouldn't it be detrimental to all residents if one person in a house slipped back into bad habits?
Again, I am not trying to slam anyone, just trying to get to the crux of the matter.
I feel (and again, just my opinion) that there are enough houses dedicated to your business model inthe neighborhood already. Just as I feel that we have plenty of convenience stores. Should someone say to me that they plan to open a convenience store, I would express my concerns about that as well.
I don't think that your business is nefarious in any way as I do not know you personally nor have I visited one of your houses. Perhaps I will stop by your thrift store on Main one day and say hello.
Quote from: zoo on October 28, 2009, 07:19:40 AM
Gonzo, thanks for weighing in and suggesting finding middle ground. After reading the most recent posts from Strider and Stephendare, do you still think it's possible?
zoo -- I am only trying to bring order to the chaos out here. Can middle gorund be found? I don't know. One would like to believe it can, but it does not seem that anyone is willing to compromise.
Maybe the best thing at this point is to ask: without calling for heads on platters, calling names or spinning and facts, what is it -- specifically -- that Stephen and Strider want?
Lucasjj,
just call SPAR. they do a great job of keeping track of them & can fill you in on anyelse regarding this issue.
353-7727.
just tell 'em you're thinking of buying in the area and they'll help you out.
Stop in the thrift store -- we'd be happy to talk to you and take you on a tour. Or PM us and we'll set up a time to meet.
Quote from: sheclown on October 28, 2009, 08:16:44 AM
Stop in the thrift store -- we'd be happy to talk to you and take you on a tour. Or PM us and we'll set up a time to meet.
That would be great.
Quote from: Gonzo on October 28, 2009, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: zoo on October 28, 2009, 07:19:40 AM
Gonzo, thanks for weighing in and suggesting finding middle ground. After reading the most recent posts from Strider and Stephendare, do you still think it's possible?
zoo -- I am only trying to bring order to the chaos out here. Can middle gorund be found? I don't know. One would like to believe it can, but it does not seem that anyone is willing to compromise.
Maybe the best thing at this point is to ask: without calling for heads on platters, calling names or spinning and facts, what is it -- specifically -- that Stephen and Strider want?
Gonzo, hate to break the news to you but its not possible, you'll figure it out after a while, just read the posts.
This is what Sheclown wants:
More transparency in neighborhood affairs
Stop the scare tactics and lies ie: RED ALERTS, illegal rooming houses, loopholes
Treat all businesses and residents as equal shareholders in Springfield's future
Quote from: civil42806 on October 28, 2009, 08:27:45 AM
Quote from: Gonzo on October 28, 2009, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: zoo on October 28, 2009, 07:19:40 AM
Gonzo, thanks for weighing in and suggesting finding middle ground. After reading the most recent posts from Strider and Stephendare, do you still think it's possible?
zoo -- I am only trying to bring order to the chaos out here. Can middle gorund be found? I don't know. One would like to believe it can, but it does not seem that anyone is willing to compromise.
Maybe the best thing at this point is to ask: without calling for heads on platters, calling names or spinning and facts, what is it -- specifically -- that Stephen and Strider want?
Gonzo, hate to break the news to you but its not possible, you'll figure it out after a while, just read the posts.
Civil -- I have actually been a reader of the site and forums for a long time. I weigh in occassionally and have met most of the players. Its difficult dealing with strong-willed, passionate people. But, I can't help but think there is a place where everyone can come to an agreement. Where that is, I don't know, but it would certainly make the neighborhood a better place and maybe -- just maybe -- break this cycle of finger pointing and persecution.
Call me a dreamer...
Quote from: zooAnyone, other than the 4 whose opinion we already know well, think Springfield should meet at this "middle ground?"
Yes, but it takes a willingness from all interested parties...of which, I've not seen
Quote from: stephendare on October 28, 2009, 08:59:39 AM
that is so true, springfielder.
Btw. Where are the SPAR representatives?
There's a SPAR meeting tomorrow night (10/29/09). 7:00pm 1321 N. Main Street. I'm sure there will be SPAR representatives there.
Quote from: Gonzo on October 28, 2009, 08:44:25 AM
Quote from: civil42806 on October 28, 2009, 08:27:45 AM
Quote from: Gonzo on October 28, 2009, 08:12:01 AM
Quote from: zoo on October 28, 2009, 07:19:40 AM
Gonzo, thanks for weighing in and suggesting finding middle ground. After reading the most recent posts from Strider and Stephendare, do you still think it's possible?
zoo -- I am only trying to bring order to the chaos out here. Can middle gorund be found? I don't know. One would like to believe it can, but it does not seem that anyone is willing to compromise.
Maybe the best thing at this point is to ask: without calling for heads on platters, calling names or spinning and facts, what is it -- specifically -- that Stephen and Strider want?
Gonzo, hate to break the news to you but its not possible, you'll figure it out after a while, just read the posts.
Civil -- I have actually been a reader of the site and forums for a long time. I weigh in occassionally and have met most of the players. Its difficult dealing with strong-willed, passionate people. But, I can't help but think there is a place where everyone can come to an agreement. Where that is, I don't know, but it would certainly make the neighborhood a better place and maybe -- just maybe -- break this cycle of finger pointing and persecution.
Call me a dreamer...
Okay your a dreamer
Lack of transparency in this neighborhood organization has hurt everyone. We are forced to go to a very public forum in order to be heard. This trend started after the SPAR election two years ago when there were accusations of election fraud. Instead of dealing with the disgruntled citizenry of Springfield, SPAR clamped down on communicating with the neighborhood. You can look to the beginnings of the SPAR revolt when it deals with shutting down the forum.
Then last year when the board decided not to hold elections, they became even less communicative and controlled the information even more.
Certain things happen when leaders operate in a vacuum. Historic structures get torn down, dangerous policy gets advocated and etc.
SPAR does not have the power to hurt me and Joe nor our business. It does have the power to destroy forward progress of the neighborhood by its actions.
Quote from: JaxUnicorn on October 28, 2009, 09:02:00 AM
Quote from: stephendare on October 28, 2009, 08:59:39 AM
that is so true, springfielder.
Btw. Where are the SPAR representatives?
There's a SPAR meeting tomorrow night (10/29/09). 7:00pm 1321 N. Main Street. I'm sure there will be SPAR representatives there.
And will there be a venue for open discussion about neighborhood issues, or will it be a PR session?
We won't be there, Joe can't go....
Quote from: sheclown on October 28, 2009, 08:28:46 AM
This is what Sheclown wants:
More transparency in neighborhood affairs
Stop the scare tactics and lies ie: RED ALERTS, illegal rooming houses, loopholes
Treat all businesses and residents as equal shareholders in Springfield's future
Thats a very fair list, and one many of the people in the neighborhood agree with. However, what about the proliferation of these sober houses?
Why not just make them available as regular single family rentals? There is actually a market for such a thing, and at least a few of your houses are in desirable areas. You would still have rental income, and you would suck much of the wind from SPAR, and other sails.
wow, Dan. That is so ugly. These guys are so great, and I love them very much. They are my family.
I may or may not be nice regardless, as its really not about me, nor is it about you. Its really almost not even about Joe and Gloria. Its about a business model that has been created, in which 'do-gooder' organizations can come into our neighborhood and house people without inspections, supervision, or appropriate zoning.
Keep in mind, we are talking about an at-risk groups of people here.
Its simply not the same as 4 or 5 roommates. The people living in these 'sober-houses' aren't choosing their roommates, they have no control over who they live with and even share a bedroom with. So when something bad happens, they are at the discretion of the land lord to solve it. In a roommate situation, the roommates are making decisions and working together. If there is a problem, often people are asked to leave or leave on their own accord to solve the problem.
Quote from: sheclown on October 28, 2009, 09:17:03 AM
wow, Dan. That is so ugly. These guys are so great, and I love them very much. They are my family.
Its not ugly at all. I have no beef with the guys. Frankly, I woldnt even care if they were to chose to lease the house on their own. But that isnt whats happening.
Quote from: Dan B on October 28, 2009, 09:25:52 AM
Its simply not the same as 4 or 5 roommates. The people living in these 'sober-houses' aren't choosing their roommates, they have no control over who they live with and even share a bedroom with. So when something bad happens, they are at the discretion of the land lord to solve it. In a roommate situation, the roommates are making decisions and working together. If there is a problem, often people are asked to leave or leave on their own accord to solve the problem.
...funny that sounds like my family when I was growing up...
is there a reason the same email keeps getting posted over and over within the thread?
QuoteSheclown: Lack of transparency in this neighborhood organization has hurt everyone.
The information is accessible; just pick up the phone and call 353-SPAR (you can ask over the phone, and/or make an appt to receive further clarification re: your questions).
What some in the community have a problem with is HOW it is made available -- in limited print, electronic and in-person methods -- and that it is not consistently delivered to their doorstep or their computer screen. This is a resource issue that SPAR has called for help on repeatedly, and help is still welcome.
I happen to agree that better outbound communication is needed and that use of the internet for such purpose has had its problems over the past few years. However,
that is not synonymous with "the organization isn't transparent," because the information is available. And the claim that anything has "hurt everyone" is more hyperbole.
QuoteSheclown: And will there be a venue for open discussion about neighborhood issues, or will it be a PR session?
So, it's as I guessed. SPAR can't win. The organization is "not transparent", but then when it communicates about its initiatives, it's "a PR session."
I don't believe open discussion is on the agenda for this particular General Meeting. I believe much of the meeting will be taken up by HDR Engineering presenting early concepts for the revitalization of the Creek and its park system from Liberty to 8th Sts. Call 353-SPAR if you'd like to know what the other agenda items are, as I've filled my SPAR-Gen-Mtg-allocated brain cells with "Woohoo, can't wait to hear what COJ, SPAR, HDR and PPS have in mind for the parks!!!"
I'm sure some will say "Right, general discussion isn't on the agenda." You're welcome to that negative interpretation. But like any other org, SPAR must have an agenda for all of its meetings to keep them on-task and focused, which ultimately enables the org to move toward implementation of revitalization strategies. Everyone on here knows open conversations about the District can last weeks or longer!
I hope everyone who gives a hoot about Springfield plans to attend (except, of course, Strider, who I'll save the energy of reminding us again that he's not permitted).
For anyone interested in this issue, please attend the SPAR meeting tomorrow evening at the SPAR building. 7PM.
We'll see if anyone has anything to say about this then, which would be the most appropriate setting to raise concerns of SPAR conduct.
My guess is noone will.
Which would tell you all you need to know.
Quote from: fsu813 on October 28, 2009, 12:26:16 PM
For anyone interested in this issue, please attend the SPAR meeting tomorrow evening at the SPAR building. 7PM.
We'll see if anyone has anything to say about this then, which would be the most appropriate setting to raise concerns of SPAR conduct.
My guess is noone will.
Which would tell you all you need to know.
in the past these meetings have not lent themselves to an "open forum". everything must have been submitted and put on the agenda, even then - there were times when certain board members were not afforded the opportunity to speak due in part to those that were not board members but were allowed to speak taking up the meeting time. but hey, everyone can show up and stare at each other, that should be fun.
Quote from: cindi on October 28, 2009, 12:55:17 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on October 28, 2009, 12:26:16 PM
For anyone interested in this issue, please attend the SPAR meeting tomorrow evening at the SPAR building. 7PM.
We'll see if anyone has anything to say about this then, which would be the most appropriate setting to raise concerns of SPAR conduct.
My guess is noone will.
Which would tell you all you need to know.
in the past these meetings have not lent themselves to an "open forum". everything must have been submitted and put on the agenda, even then - there were times when certain board members were not afforded the opportunity to speak due in part to those that were not board members but were allowed to speak taking up the meeting time. but hey, everyone can show up and stare at each other, that should be fun.
Exactly, and that's part of the problem, it's usually not open forum.
Quote from: cindi on October 28, 2009, 09:46:03 AM
is there a reason the same email keeps getting posted over and over within the thread?
Yeah, there is.
It's intended to bring the discussion back on point, because all the Sparbarians keep deflecting attention away from the real and valid issues presented by the Executive Director having sold out the organization's entire purpose for existence.
During all of these discussions, the Sparbarians have employed a wide variety of methods to distract from the scandal engulfing the group, including personally attacking whoever happens to disagree with them, all while simultaneously kvetching about how there are too many personal attacks on the forum. ROFL
So the point of re-posting the emails in which Louise, among other things, is found waging a closed-doors battle against neighbors and fellow spar members, whining about how she can't tear down these damned historic properties fast enough, then demanding that COJ pass new whatever new legislation that she wants whenever she wants it, and instructing other Sparbarians to call in bogus code enforcement complaints against people she doesn't like, not to mention sending private letters and e-mails to members of the COJ city council in an attempt to discredit other Spar members who disagree with her.
Oh and then there's the hilarious "RED ALERT" system for, of all things, a silly boarding house... like that's really a big problem in a neighborhood where prostitutes still walk the sidewalks in open daylight, and where 1/3 of the neighborhood has been demolished under SPAR's 'historic preservation' reign. Oh, and with most of the resulting vacant lots winding up in the hands of the same wealthy developer who, coincidentally enough, writes her giant $150k checks every year. LMFAO!
The whole thing is really just ridiculous. You can argue with me, and try and discredit whoever disagrees with the rooming house issues, or SPAR's gaffes, but those e-mails are straight from the horse's mouth, leaving little room for argument. Which of course, is why everyone resorts to personally attacking people in first place, because they can't attack Louise's own words that came straight from the source.
So yes I think it's actually quite helpful to keep re-posting them. It turns the focus away from being a personality contest and back to the actual issues at hand here.
^ You do realize the email that is continuously posted is not the one from Louise, right?
Quote from: jason_contentdg on October 28, 2009, 01:34:51 PM
^ You do realize the email that is continuously posted is not the one from Louise, right?
There are a dozen emails from her, and she's ultimately behind this "RED ALERT" thing. The one being posted accomplishes the same effect, of bringing the discussion back on point. There are like 10 threads where all these issues have blown up, it's hard to keep it all straight, but my statements generally apply to all of them.
Springfielder & Cindi,
so when you raise your hand and bring ask a question about it, what do you think will happen?
Raise hand.
"Yes, I have a concern about something that has been discussed at naseum on online forums, i'm sure you've heard. Can you tell me what's going on with ____________________ please? If we don't have enough time now to discuss it, when would be an appropriate time? Thanks."
If they give a better time, good enough. If they do repsond then follow it up with
" I understand, but my concern is _____________".
It's pretty simple.
I seriously doubt they'll stone wall you.
so i guess just stating, "hey, lets stay on topic" was not within forum etiquette?
Quote from: fsu813 on October 28, 2009, 02:10:06 PM
Springfielder & Cindi,
so when you raise your hand and bring ask a question about it, what do you think will happen?
Raise hand.
"Yes, I have a concern about something that has been discussed at naseum on online forums, i'm sure you've heard. Can you tell me what's going on with ____________________ please? If we don't have enough time now to discuss it, when would be an appropriate time? Thanks."
If they give a better time, good enough. If they do repsond then follow it up with
" I understand, but my concern is _____________".
It's pretty simple.
I seriously doubt they'll stone wall you.
You're told that it's not open forum and that's that...your question or concern is never really addressed...been there, done that.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 28, 2009, 01:55:28 PM
Quote from: jason_contentdg on October 28, 2009, 01:34:51 PM
^ You do realize the email that is continuously posted is not the one from Louise, right?
There are a dozen emails from her, and she's ultimately behind this "RED ALERT" thing. The one being posted accomplishes the same effect, of bringing the discussion back on point. There are like 10 threads where all these issues have blown up, it's hard to keep it all straight, but my statements generally apply to all of them.
Is there a singular thread where all the issues and concerns people have with SPAR are all in one place, instead of spread out over numerous threads?
my keyboard must be really jacked up because evidently what i type and can read on my end is not what everyone else is seeing - i could have sworn i typed IN THE PAST. but the answer to what has happened IN THE PAST is pretty much, blah, blah, skirt the issue, blah, blah.
QuoteYou're told that it's not open forum and that's that...your question or concern is never really addressed...been there, done that.
Try this if the meeting has a tight agenda b/c other non-transparent information is being shared with the community:
QuoteThe information is accessible; just pick up the phone and call 353-SPAR (you can ask over the phone, and/or make an appt to receive further clarification re: your questions).
This method of clarifying issues always worked for me even before I worked for a developer, or was labeled a "SPAR insider." (not my words, just another attempt at character assasination on this forum)
And, no, cindi, it isn't your keyboard that's really jacked up...
QuoteThis method of clarifying issues always worked for me even before I worked for a developer, or was labeled a "SPAR insider." (not my words, just another attempt at character assasination on this forum)
May as well misquote me, too, huh? More dramatic that way, I suppose...
Just for kicks, go read post number 105 from the SPAR Revolt thread - top of page 8 and is dated September 22, 2008. (I’d post it, but it is long and I’m trying to do the less is more thing…) This was actually an excellent post and it addresses the very same issues with transparency and how questions and concerns are met by the Executive Board of SPAR Council...yes the very same people who are "in power" today. We could also refer you to the Q&A meeting held late last year.. There is a thread about that as well. (It may be on a different forum- I know lots of that discussion was on the “closed†SPAR Council forum.)
The complaints about SPAR Council are nothing new. This Executive Board still applies the same tactics, the same apparent disdain for their membership and at least the majority of the residents of the community of which they claim to represent, it's just a new year.
You can try to hide from the truth, but you will seldom succeed. Perhaps it is time SPAR Council got out from behind that bush and faced the tissues at hand. With honesty and sincerity….now wouldn’t that be refreshing?
Has there ever been one study done to determine if boarding/halfway houses add to a crime problem in the neighborhood? Or is it just a perceived threat? Maybe we should be going after the places in Arlington where all of the trannys stay at? I read the last 17 pages and all I have is a headache.