I saw that there was a MJ "Jacksonville Architecture Top 10" (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2105.0.html ).
Well, I couldn't resist thinking that we, unfortunately, may have many more candidates surviving today for a "Bottom 10" than a "Top 10". So, to get things started, I offer the following suggestions, likely to offend almost everyone :D . Feel free to add comments or your nominees.
Hyatt/Adams Mark Hotel (the wall by the river?)
$ky-high-way Tracks and Supports
JSO HQ's (or is that a fort?)
Bennett Federal Office Building (another fort, just taller?)
Wachovia Northbank Bldg. (the flat mirror with a bump on its head next to the Omni)
The Fuller Warren (I-95) Bridge (or, is that an oversized overpass?)
All parking garages
All the "new" office buildings in La Villa
All the strip malls, shopping centers, and malls in Jax
All the fake stucco box tract homes
*Awaiting completion to qualify: New Duval County Courthouse, master street killer.
What, the old library, at 122 Ocean gets a free pass? The Carnegie building, the original library is way cool! I would add many of the libraries are nothing more than glorified Circuit City boxes. The downtown and the Willow Branch are notable exceptions.
This is my choice for Jacksonville's worst architecture.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/690545660_XVJF7-L.jpg)
That reminds me, the original lower phase (the taller tower next to it was built years later as an addition) of the Blue Cross complex in Riverside could give it a run for the money. Now that I think of it, the adjacent tower addition isn't so hot either.
I love its "Architectural Style" described as "Brutalism" at this web site: http://www.emporis.com/application/?nav=building&id=bluecrossblueshieldbuilding-jacksonville-fl-usa&lng=3
(http://www.emporis.com/images/5/2004/08/290476.jpg)
Scanning the Jax skyline graphic at this web site, http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?cityID=135 , offers some other strong contenders:
The current Sun Trust Building (originally Atlantic Bank Bldg.) dressed in black
The elderly high rises around town in "bare pre-stressed concrete"
Tower Place Apartments downtown
Regency Tower
QuoteThat reminds me, the original lower phase (the taller tower next to it was built years later as an addition) of the Blue Cross complex in Riverside could give it a run for the money. Now that I think of it, the adjacent tower addition isn't so hot either.
A little history about the building you have identified. The shorter building, the Center building, was the original building for Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida. As BCBSF grew, it needed more space and added the taller building that has 20 stories. The reason one side of the building is missing windows is because it has elevators on that side AND there was a plan to add an identical building to the other side, where the elevators would be in the middle. Over the past few years, when BCBSF was HQd downtown, the top floor, 20th, was home to a radio station. Since then, the building is the First Coast Service Options division of BCBSF, primarily dealing with governmental contracts. The building has history and probably will never be torn down, especially since BCBSF is a major city employer.
The original City Hall Annex is pretty painful sight. One of the best things about the Hyatt is it blocks this creature from the riverfront.
(http://www.emporis.com/images/5/2004/03/253053.jpg)
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 25, 2009, 09:33:57 PM
The reason one side of the building is missing windows is because it has elevators on that side AND there was a plan to add an identical building to the other side, where the elevators would be in the middle.
Lake, thanks for the insight. The planned addition you describe would have only made it "twice" as ugly ;D
The JTA facility on Myrtle is just a modern shoebox with plants around it. Funny thing is, both of the administration buildings, and the garages, (a matched set mind you!) replaced an even more dismal looking Railroad Station. In fact the site and the former building and the 32 stub (back in) track platform area, made up the NATIONS LARGEST RAILWAY EXPRESS FACILITY, but God knows, it was DOG UGLY! BTW, lovers of all things Jacksonville? Where the hell is the historical marker for the Nations Largest REA facility? JHS? Anyone home? Hello?
The new Courthouse should have a title, until something better comes along, I officially declare in the kingdom of OCK, it shall forever be known as "An Explosion In A Pillar Factory."
The Hyatt? I don't know? Most hotels are sort of hum ho in the daylight, it's in the evenings that the lighting takes effect and turns them into magical inviting places. How many times I've popped into a hotel in BFE New Mexico, and woke up in the morning, walked outside and said WTF?
Fuller Warren, AGREE, gosh darn Johnny, couldn't we use just a couple Million of the new flex park bucks and install some killer neon or color to that glorified wart.
Everything at Jacksonville Beach that is under 35 feet high! BOW WOW! HOWL!
The Skyway Maintenance Facility, at least it could have been brick, to match the planned station, maybe arched doorways, a little flash back to the grand old streetcar barn that "Had to be bulldozed" because "it got in the way of the New Acosta Bridge Ramps..." What a queer thing to say, how did the streetcar barn "get in the way," but the Skyway barn doesn't?? Go figure, that was Jakes math!
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteThe planned addition you describe would have only made it "twice" as ugly
Twice the number of jobs, twice the number of taxes collected....with everything perceived to be ugly, you need to look at the beauty. Look at the old Barnett Building, you may like it, but its empty, no jobs, and generating little to no taxes.
Most of the great architectural buildings in Jax have been torn down, the old Bell South building was torn down for the courthouse, was it particullarly beautiful, no, but it did have workers generating revenue in it. I think the Bank of America building is boring with few, if any noticible features that make it stand out to me. The Havertys building is boring to me, but at least the City is making the best use of it with people inside it.
Regarding the Fuller Warren, what we have no is 1 million times better than what was there before and 10 million times better than when we had tolls on it.
Mtrain, good architecture isn't at the expense of jobs. In fact, if it's good enough, it creates jobs because the environment it creates attracts people - whether tourists, residents, employers looking to make a statement, or all of the above!
The same for historic preservation. Savannah and Charleston live off of great and/or historic architecture.
I would suggest much of Manhattan thrives upon its architectural environment as does Washington, D.C., Chicago, and San Francisco.
Architecture and history "speak" for our community and its values and vision. We need to set the bar higher - not look for the lowest common denominator. Especially, if you want those higher paying jobs that flock to communities with something "to say".
This parking garage at Forsyth and Main is particularly ugly. Even more so when you consider what it replaced.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/667259636_6JV6F-M.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on October 25, 2009, 09:38:07 PM
The original City Hall Annex is pretty painful sight. One of the best things about the Hyatt is it blocks this creature from the riverfront.
(http://www.emporis.com/images/5/2004/03/253053.jpg)
Hopefully they implode that thing when the courthouse move is completed and make room for a new convention center.
Quote from: Lunican on October 25, 2009, 10:24:31 PM
This parking garage at Forsyth and Main is particularly ugly. Even more so when you consider what it replaced.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/667259636_6JV6F-M.jpg)
That parking garage is probably the worst I have seen, anywhere.
There used to be an Architecture of Downtown Jacksonville webpage early this decade--the creator of it contributed most of the Emporis Jacksonville images--that argued for Hogans Creek Towers as the worst architecture in the city.
If those here who are the most passionate about downtown Jacksonville think so little of her, how much worse does the rest of the world see her.
I'd like to see some positivity.
Downtown Portland Maine is stunning. Head to the waterfront and she becomes less so. It is more industrial/fishing/boating with dining mixed in.
All cities need their functionality. We would do better extolling the beauties of our city rather than giving her the Ike Turner treatment.
QuoteSavannah and Charleston live off of great and/or historic architecture.
We are not these cities, not because we don't have the attributes, but because our leaders have chosen to focus on other ways to promote Jacksonville. When you are part of the First Coast, you wonder how our tourism is less important than that of those cities. Regardless this is a building thread, so back to the buildings.
Had the old City Hall, old Post Office, many of the old hotels remained downtown, we would have the historic gawkers downtown as well, be thankful for what we do have, but in the end, its not the historic attributes of the building that draw employers, its the same economics of rent, people, and demand to customers. I don't care if there is a building downtown that was built after the fire, lined with gold, if the rent is cheaper somewhere else, and people, customers, are all the same no matter where they are located, economics will win and they will move to where it is cheaper.
Don't think for a moment that companies "need" a historic building to promote their company. Most don't care, they just want to have enough money at the end of the month to be able to re-invest in the business.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 26, 2009, 08:43:58 AM
QuoteSavannah and Charleston live off of great and/or historic architecture.
We are not these cities, not because we don't have the attributes, but because our leaders have chosen to focus on other ways to promote Jacksonville. When you are part of the First Coast, you wonder how our tourism is less important than that of those cities. Regardless this is a building thread, so back to the buildings.
Had the old City Hall, old Post Office, many of the old hotels remained downtown, we would have the historic gawkers downtown as well, be thankful for what we do have, but in the end, its not the historic attributes of the building that draw employers, its the same economics of rent, people, and demand to customers. I don't care if there is a building downtown that was built after the fire, lined with gold, if the rent is cheaper somewhere else, and people, customers, are all the same no matter where they are located, economics will win and they will move to where it is cheaper.
Don't think for a moment that companies "need" a historic building to promote their company. Most don't care, they just want to have enough money at the end of the month to be able to re-invest in the business.
ummmmm actually we don't "not because we don't have the attributes" have those attributes at all. At least not in the density that both Savannah and Charleston does. But your right trying to develop jax in the modes of Savannah and Charleston is a fools errand. Lord knows there used to be post after post a few years ago trying to compare us to them, its not possible, maybe 30 or 40 years ago it may have been, but that ship has sailed.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 26, 2009, 08:43:58 AM
QuoteSavannah and Charleston live off of great and/or historic architecture.
We are not these cities, not because we don't have the attributes, but because our leaders have chosen to focus on other ways to promote Jacksonville.
I only mentioned those cities to demonstrate to you that architecture can contribute to an economy and create jobs, an idea you dismissed. I never said Jax was in their league (although, as mentioned, a more visionary group of past leaders could have put us there).QuoteDon't think for a moment that companies "need" a historic building to promote their company. Most don't care, they just want to have enough money at the end of the month to be able to re-invest in the business.
That's often the conclusion of an often poorly run company out to make a quick buck and move on. Truly re-investing in their business, as you call for, includes investing in their buildings and the image and values they convey.
Plenty of businesses do restore and occupy buildings to use as part of their image management and to show the community they respect and appreciate it through the preservation of its history. Many historic and other buildings are icons and provide instant recognition and acceptance, not to mention conveying corporate culture and values. Visionary companies that plan to lead their communities and convey permanence will pay a premium to make a statement with their buildings.
NBC promotes its HQ's in Rockefeller Center. Banks and government agencies build marbled columned temples to themselves. Skyscrapers are built to top all others. Transamerica makes its "pyramid" part of its image. Almost every Fortune 500 company works hard to have a distinctive HQ's. Professional firms and architects treasure distinctive buildings. And, don't forget restaurants and entertainment venues looking for memorable locations. Even Wal-mart, with its legendary stripped down HQ building is using it as a statement about its culture. The fact is, architecture can "speak" to customers, community, and employees. Like expensive, slickly produced advertising, there are companies willing to pay extra for "slick buildings" to promote special messages.
QuoteTruly re-investing in their business, as you call for, includes investing in their buildings and the image and values they convey.
Let's keep to Jacksonville for our discussions. No need to go to NYC and Rockefeller Center, which is more of a mall complex than 1 single building. Most companies in Jacksonville do not own their building, they lease the space, why? Because owning a building and maintaining it are more expensive than the lease of it. Also, and I am not an accountant, some people feel it is more financially responsible to lease than to rent. I am a proponet of owning, because it is an asset you can do more with assets in the US, and if you lease, you well, have no asset.
Eola Capital manages the Modis Building, I doubt Modis owns it, so the owners manage to sell the rights to the name of the building, and maintain it for the tenants. I'll study this further, but I do not believe there are many "companies" that own their own buildings. If they do, they own them in a seperate company to hide the debt of the company, a smart accounting move.
How many companies downtown own their own building? I know Boyd Jenerette owns their own building, as do a number of law firms, or they did, but it will be interesting to see if the commercial crisis hurts ownership of these buildings, and subsequent maintenance.
I know a few companies that own their own buildings DT. Not to keep bringing up Rockefeller center, but it is a notable example of a sale lease-back. Companies who own their buildings often sell them to free up capital and lease them back from the purchaser. Many companies choose not to buy their buildings in the first place, so most buildings are owned by third party companies.
There are a few, probably more than a few downtown. The discussion was though, if you own a historic building or any building, do you do more to keep it up, because it is historic, and provide more worth for people to admire, especially downtown. Or do you lease the space and let the landlord manage the space and the appearance?
The CSX building, while not an architectural gem, did receive new windows, I think in time for the Super Bowl. Energy efficiency, the whole 9 yards. A building built in the early 50s, completed, I believe in 1960, it would appear they own it and maintain it, and from all appearances, it has held up well with their own maintenance and improvements.
The CSX Building is quite nice now, and have grown to like it.
Plus, it block 550 Water St being seen from the river, which is just an ugly structure. That said though, at least their plaza has been redone.
Quote from: Lunican on October 25, 2009, 07:33:28 PM
This is my choice for Jacksonville's worst architecture.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/690545660_XVJF7-L.jpg)
It actually won't be too bad once the rocket ship is repaired enough to fly home.
Reed - Your right, 550 is just a box with windows. But at least they have windows compared to the ATT Data Center with its concrete and monolithic views, reminds me of the old structures on the Martin Landau TV program, Space:1999.
Quote from: stjr on October 25, 2009, 03:22:12 PM
I saw that there was a MJ "Jacksonville Architecture Top 10" (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2105.0.html ).
Well, I couldn't resist thinking that we, unfortunately, may have many more candidates surviving today for a "Bottom 10" than a "Top 10". So, to get things started, I offer the following suggestions, likely to offend almost everyone :D . Feel free to add comments or your nominees.
Hyatt/Adams Mark Hotel (the wall by the river?)
$ky-high-way Tracks and Supports
JSO HQ's (or is that a fort?)
Bennett Federal Office Building (another fort, just taller?)
Wachovia Northbank Bldg. (the flat mirror with a bump on its head next to the Omni)
The Fuller Warren (I-95) Bridge (or, is that an oversized overpass?)
All parking garages
All the "new" office buildings in La Villa
All the strip malls, shopping centers, and malls in Jax
All the fake stucco box tract homes
*Awaiting completion to qualify: New Duval County Courthouse, master street killer.
I hate to have to extremely disagree with that list. I never complain with the design with all of these. Although a few buildings could use some more life:
All parking garages i.e.
As for the new courthouse, I don't think it looks that bad.
One of the worst has to be the Federal Reserve Building that blocks the view of the Prime Osborne from downtown. That thing looks like a concrete block laid on it's side and is soon going to be vacant since the Jax Federal Reserve office is closing. Even our jail has better design!
School Board building on the south bank should be on this list.
I don't understand why the Wachovia Northbank is on the list. I find it very nice and if the sun angle in the sky is right, and your position is as well, you can get this large glare from it's roof even on the Buckman.
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 09:04:11 PM
I don't understand why the Wachovia Northbank is on the list. I find it very nice and if the sun angle in the sky is right, and your position is as well, you can get this large glare from it's roof even on the Buckman.
Reed, I am supposing this is your sarcasm about one of Jax's largest "solar panels". A box entirely skinned in simple reflective glass and nothing more isn't very inspiring accept maybe to sun worshipers. 8)(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:wmQrWSfBMsH9PM:http://image36.webshots.com/37/8/72/77/283187277hWNtIT_ph.jpg)
I like the variations between the reflective glass and the white stripes. It is simple, but also doesn't overpower the Landing or riverwalk.
Now, if we want to add another skyscraper to the list, add the AT&T Tower.
So what about the Modis building? It is certainly a signature building that defines the skyline, however, it's always "love it" or "hate it" whenever it comes up in conversation.
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 11:09:51 PM
I like the variations between the reflective glass and the white stripes. It is simple, but also doesn't overpower the Landing or riverwalk.
Now, if we want to add another skyscraper to the list, add the AT&T Tower.
At least the ATT tower has some "jagged" edges, angles, and a contrast between glass and metallic panels. That beats glass and more glass. ;)
I think the most "distinctive" high rise in Jax is either the Modis building (ONLY because its base makes it look like a rocket ready for launch. The glass mirror tower is just one of many.) or the Gulf Life/Riverplace tower with what was, at least once, the tallest building in the world supported by its exterior. Otherwise, most of our high rises aren't too memorable.
I do like the original Prudential/Aetna building for being a classic of its era. I find it to be a "warm", approachable building for its size. I actually preferred the CSX building with the blue tiles before it was covered over for the same reasons. Always thought those tiles were something different than what you see elsewhere. Other than that , I don't recall any particular skyline buildings that really stand out.
Well, once the BOA Tower gets relit, whenever the hell that happens, it'll be very noticeable again. During the day though, I like the contrast between it's dark granite and glass exterior against the blue sky.
My issue with the AT&T Tower is that it needs a serious exterior cleaning and needs the silver sections replaced/reclad. Some of them are loose and appear to have air pockets in them.
The Riverplace Tower looks much better now that the pressure washing and repainting was completed last year.
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 11:32:48 PM
Well, once the BOA Tower gets relit, whenever the hell that happens, it'll be very noticeable again. During the day though, I like the contrast between it's dark granite and glass exterior against the blue sky.
My issue with the AT&T Tower is that it needs a serious exterior cleaning and needs the silver sections replaced/reclad. Some of them are loose and appear to have air pockets in them.
The Riverplace Tower looks much better now that the pressure washing and repainting was completed last year.
I agree with all your comments. The B of A tower has a classic look which is no surprise since its an adaptation of a twin tower in Manhattan.
I want to add that, even though its sheathed mostly in glass, the Prudential "new" complex in green on the Southbank is unique with its multiple stacked interlocking box look. It's both distinctive and interesting to look at.
If it came down to one building to chose, I would have to go with Riverplace/Gulf Life as our most unique and memorable building.
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 11:32:48 PM
Well, once the BOA Tower gets relit, whenever the hell that happens, it'll be very noticeable again. During the day though, I like the contrast between it's dark granite and glass exterior against the blue sky.
I wish somebody rooting around in the city planning files of "dead dreams," would come across the rendering of the BOA tower as planned with the Palm Tree deck some 5-10 floors short of the top floors. Sort of a balcony with palms, but I don't remember if they were to be REAL or metallic. I do remember Barnett said "No" they were too "Liberal" or some such trash. But it did appear in the TU or Florida Trend, I just don't remember, Damn!@$@^$^&!@!*(&&&$ OCKLAWAHA
I doubt they would've been real as a strong tropical storm would rips them out and heave them towards nerby buildings and the ground.
If I remember correctly, for every 100ft you climb, you add 10mph to the wind speed.
I don't get the hate for the exchange building and Fed Reserve. They're basically fortresses, they're not supposed to be pretty. The Exchange is pretty in its own way, just like the massive ones in NYC. The Fed Reserve isn't as nice but lord knows I'd love to explore it.
The AT&T building does need cleaning up, but IMHO is probably the most sophisticated and subtle piece of architecture in downtown. When the sun is shining (not today!) the step backs make beautiful and ever changing geometric patterns up and down the sides of the building. It is NOT an accidental effect, but one that was obviously designed in. Quite striking.
I've loved the look of the Gulf Life Tower from the time is was first put up. In a era when everything was floating glass boxes, the architects boldly put the bones on the outside. "See," they were saying, "This is what holds a building up!" Terrific sense of strength, stability and safety from that building.
Quote from: Dog Walker on October 28, 2009, 09:09:48 AM...............I've loved the look of the Gulf Life Tower from the time is was first put up. In a era when everything was floating glass boxes, the architects boldly put the bones on the outside. "See," they were saying, "This is what holds a building up!" Terrific sense of strength, stability and safety from that building.
Especially when you think of the building as a post tension concrete structure. Those corners do not have a column holding the corner beam and floor up. It is the tension on the cables that stiffens up the structure.
Quote from: thekillingwax on October 28, 2009, 05:16:51 AM
I don't get the hate for the exchange building and Fed Reserve. They're basically fortresses, they're not supposed to be pretty. The Exchange is pretty in its own way, just like the massive ones in NYC. The Fed Reserve isn't as nice but lord knows I'd love to explore it.
Ever seen the Federal Reserve building on Peachtree Street in Midtown Atlanta?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/FedReserve_Atlanta.jpg
The "Four For the Future" section at the end of Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage argues for the Gulf Life as one of the modern buildings most likely to be considered a classic in the future. The author notes that in addition to the bold statement that the exterior support provides as Dog Walker noted, the exterior also distinctly articulates each floor of the building, humanizing it and defining its scale.
I always loved the Independent Life building just for its massiveness and sense of authority, not to mention that you can get great pictures with the sky, fireworks, etc. reflected in its exterior.
Barnett/BoA always had a special place with me since it was the first large building in Jacksonville that I got to tour. Better interaction at street level would be nice, of course.
Trivia about Southern Bell/AT&T: it has 16 sides because it was intended to be a headquarters for Charter Co. as well as Southern Bell, and many executives demanded corner offices.
I think the AHL/Humana/SunTrust building gets lost in the shuffle when people discuss the best high-rises in the city. Although better street level interaction would be nice with this one, I like how it incorporates orange and blue and reflective panels and really ties the skyline together, with the blue granite Barnett behind it, the orange roof of the Landing in front, etc.
I always liked the Florida National/First Union/Wachovia on the Northbank. Seems cheerful to me somehow.
People up here who see my pictures of Jacksonville always comment positively on the look of the newer Prudential building on the Southbank, but I really dislike this one for the bad street level interaction and enormous street-crossing footprint. It looks nice enough from 95 or a photo.
And yes, I am addicted to calling these buildings by their former names.
Quote from: thekillingwax on October 28, 2009, 05:16:51 AM
I don't get the hate for the exchange building and Fed Reserve. They're basically fortresses, they're not supposed to be pretty. The Exchange is pretty in its own way, just like the massive ones in NYC. The Fed Reserve isn't as nice but lord knows I'd love to explore it.
The Fed Reserve building in Baltimore looks almost exactly the same as the one in Jacksonville.
I'd like to nominate the FBC lighthouse that is attached to one of their numerous ugly parking garages downtown.
Also, another that should definitely be on the list; the new TPC Sawgrass clubhouse. More faux Tuscan ugliness right here in NE Florida. Why couldn't they design something with its own identity with a coastal island feel & look. Tuscany & its architecture is about as far removed from this climate/locale as any that I can imagine.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on October 26, 2009, 08:37:10 AM
There used to be an Architecture of Downtown Jacksonville webpage early this decade--the creator of it contributed most of the Emporis Jacksonville images--that argued for Hogans Creek Towers as the worst architecture in the city.
If you've ever been in the front door of this building, you'd swear that the jailhouse has more class and design. It's so ugly I can't even come up with the right word to express it.
Since we're listing ugly structures, can we also throw in the Singleton Senior Center on 1st, or does that not count? The building looks like a solid concrete missile housing facility with an odd wide gun turret in the back.
Singleton Senior on 1st (ick), and the Shands twin towers with the one glass bridge floating around the top floor, co-joining these ugly twins.