The Ranking Minority Member of the Transportation and Infrastructure committee ( John Mica) undermines Florida HSR application, by not endorsing it:
http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/cms.php?action=Endorsements
Here are John Mica's reasons:
QuoteMica also questions the financial viability of the proposed high-speed rail corridor. He says only the link from the Orlando airport to Disney World would have enough riders to support it.
"The rest of the leg to Tampa is a dog," he said.
Ultimately, though, it's a matter of timing, he said. High-speed rail needs local rail as support so passengers can get around when they reach their destination.
His focus is on getting federal money for regional systems, including $10 million that U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor requested for rail in Tampa Bay.
"Then we connect together with high speed," he said. "Doesn't anybody get that? How dumb can you be?"
U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown, a Democrat from Jacksonville who chairs the Transportation Committee's subcommittee on railroads, said Florida's chances suffer from a lack of leadership at the state level.
"The people in charge tell me Florida talks a good game, but every time they have to put money on the table they come up short," she said, saying there's no funding available for high-speed rail in the state budget and light rail in South Florida is struggling financially.
Both Mica and Brown note that California voters recently voted to spend $9.8 billion on high-speed rail in that state.
"They're ready," Brown said.
Castor, a Democrat from Tampa, sees it differently, pointing out that Florida has dedicated right-of-way along the interstate for the line.
"That's a significant investment," she said.
Hillsborough County Commissioner Mark Sharpe, a champion for rail in Tampa, sees no reason to wait for local systems to get going before moving forward with high-speed rail.
"They can work together simultaneously," he said.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article1016211.ece
he has a point with the need for local rail.
I've started playing a game called Guess Which Thread Faye Started..... I'm 7 for 8 so far.
If it is one or the other local vs HSR for this funding I agree with him local is far more important. That said this funding is for HSR even if some goes to other systems and he should not hurt the State he represents chance at taking part. Stops and connections can be added later.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 22, 2009, 10:06:08 AM
If it is one or the other local vs HSR for this funding I agree with him local is far more important. That said this funding is for HSR even if some goes to other systems and he should not hurt the State he represents chance at taking part. Stops and connections can be added later.
Thank you JeffreyS.
We desperately need those jobs in Florida, and others (Republicans and Democrats alike) are unified on this for the sake of Florida.
Can't say that I blame the guy. The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months. The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that. So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route? I think there are pros and cons to both options.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 10:31:05 AM
Can't say that I blame the guy. The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months. The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that. So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route? I think there are pros and cons to both options.
Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.
It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.
While I do support rail in Florida, there are much less expensive ways to do it than HSR....and the fact is the portion between Disney and OIA will be the highest ridership....other than that, its just an experimental system (like the Skyway).
Sounds like Mica is right on target again, and Faye, is in far left field shouting don't vote for me, just vote against Mica. Same old S..T
Captain, your game is an easy win, just hit the search button for John Mica, and you get 113 hits, mostly posted by "Faye for Cure." Faye is blindly supporting the Florida High Speed Rail plan because we need the jobs, we need the money, we need a showcase rail system, we need development (as in: all of the miles from Orlando to Tampa, between I-4/HSR and the traditional CSX rail system).
Note that not a single one of these excuses have anything to do with common sense transportation, passenger needs, local transportation needs etc... Just a big and expensive toy to point to and yell, "I supported Boondoggle, I mean HSR!"QuoteAugust 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board:The state's high-speed rail application isn't due to the Federal Rail Administration until Oct. 2. But Florida applied Monday for $270 million from the high-speed rail fund to offset the cost of building the $1.2 billion SunRail line. It's a bit of a stretch to go after the high-speed rail money for SunRail but worth the try for these reasons: The commuter line would feed passengers to the fast train. It would also improve the economic link between Central Florida's east and west coast communities. Then, too, the additional money, combined with $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 10:31:05 AM
Can't say that I blame the guy. The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months. The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that. So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route? I think there are pros and cons to both options.
Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.
It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.
Look at it this way: If there are no local rail options in place first, and thus no mass public desire/awareness of such a transit system, what makes you think HSR will be a roaring success in Florida?
If my option is to drive my car (since the bus system in Jax is still quite the joke, IMO), to some HSR station, then take the HSR to Point B, I'd probably rather drive it if it's a short enough distance. Or fly if it's a long enough distance. There's still at least two different types of transportation involved: car-to-HSR or car-to-plane.
If local rail was pre-existing, I could hop on an LRT to an HSR station, then go on my way - no muss, no fuss, and chances are, no car either. More seamless I'd think.
But, as TUFSU just said, and if I may be permitted to take liberties, this HSR argument is setting up to be exactly the potential failure that the Skyway currently is in its present form: Sure it's cool and spiffy and new, but there won't be any (or at least *much*) in the way of other transit system connecting to it and making it a viable option.
Connecting the Skyway to something relavent, transit-wise, would probably redeem it. The state is making the same kind of mistake with HSR that'll go from OIA to Disney: self-contained and extremely limited and probably not worth the investment, as the rest of Florida is getting nothing out of it.
Anything else would be nowhere-to-nowhere, thanks to no pre-existing local rail options.
**EDIT** ...and amen, Ock!
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 10:31:05 AM
Can't say that I blame the guy. The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months. The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that. So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route? I think there are pros and cons to both options.
Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.
It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.
Commuter rail has been pretty successful across the US but it failed in Syracuse, NY. So was it commuter rail that was a failure or the plan that was carried out?
I think I've already made myself clear in our past discussions that I have nothing against HSR or rail in general. When applied in the right setting and designed accordingly it can be a wonderful asset. However, when planned poorly, it can be a devasting one (ex. the Syracuse On-Track story). In Florida's case, the HSR plan (primarily the Tampa-Orlando link) seems risky at best. The fares are too high and the train skips the pockets of density where most I-4 commuting trips actually generate. Nevertheless, just because I question the feasibility of Florida's proposal, don't put me in the anti-rail corner.
I guess we all agree that Florida needs an expansive and intergrated transit system.....which is why committment to intercity-rail (like HSR) should be tied to committments for local and regional commuter systems (like SunRail, TriRail, Tampa light rail, Orlando light rail, Jax. commute rail, etc.).
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2009, 11:21:20 AM
QuoteAugust 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board......... $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.
These are just so typical of the statements Mica makes,..........the FRA makes those determinations, unless Mica plans to put in an earmark, but that's a far cry from being "promised."
Why don't you check my signature line,........if you are incomfortable with my reproduction of what's readily available in the press about Mica,..........stuff that should interest anyone who believes in holding our elected officials accountable on transportation issues,.......don't read it.
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 22, 2009, 11:25:45 AM
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 11:09:11 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 10:31:05 AM
Can't say that I blame the guy. The argument presented is the same many of us have been saying on this site the last few months. The thing is a dog and an ugly expensive one at that. So then the dilemma becomes is it best to support a known failure because federal money is there (ex. Skyway) or go a different route? I think there are pros and cons to both options.
Hmmm, a "known failure," that's a pretty steep claim for you to make after HSR has been such a roaring success almost everywhere, and the voters certainly wanted it, before Jeb Bush and some of his Republican buddies decided to kill it.
It's becoming old and tired to compare HSR to the tiny Skyway in provincial acting Jax.
Look at it this way: If there are no local rail options in place first, and thus no mass public desire/awareness of such a transit system, what makes you think HSR will be a roaring success in Florida?
If my option is to drive my car (since the bus system in Jax is still quite the joke, IMO), to some HSR station, then take the HSR to Point B, I'd probably rather drive it if it's a short enough distance. Or fly if it's a long enough distance. There's still at least two different types of transportation involved: car-to-HSR or car-to-plane.
If local rail was pre-existing, I could hop on an LRT to an HSR station, then go on my way - no muss, no fuss, and chances are, no car either. More seamless I'd think.
I am a real fan of LRT, and it's a shame Orlando didn't get it's LRT in 1999. That said there are other transit options available on both ends.
Thanks for bringing up this: no mass public desire/awareness of such a transit system, what makes you think HSR will be a roaring success in Florida?
The tourists that will be making up upwards of 50% of the ridership, generally have plenty of mass transit awareness accumulated in the regions and countries of origin. People may fly into Tampa (lower airline prices) and use the HSR to get to Orlando. Once in Orlando they can easily get around the Disney area complex without renting a car.
QuoteThe tourists that will be making up upwards of 50% of the ridership, generally have plenty of mass transit awareness accumulated in the regions and countries of origin.
No doubt. Most will be on the link between MCO, International Drive and Disney. But is that ridership worth spending $2.5 billion on and will they be up to paying the high fares? Its one thing when you're purchasing one ticket but another when you have a family of 4 or 6, etc.
QuotePeople may fly into Tampa (lower airline prices) and use the HSR to get to Orlando.
A few things that damage this idea.
1. Air fares in Tampa and Orlando are basically equal.
2. Whatever minuscule savings you could find flying into Tampa would be lost on the high $60 roundtrip/per person HSR fare.
3. HSR will terminate in DT Tampa, not TIA. Thus, to get to DT Tampa from that airport, you'll have to catch a bus or taxi crosstown and then transfer to HSR. Why not just rent a car at the airport and drive? Once you get to Orlando, you'll have to rent one anyway.
QuoteOnce in Orlando they can easily get around the Disney area complex without renting a car.
How many tourist confine themselves to one site during their vacation? What if the tourist wanted to go shopping, out to eat "off Disney's property", to DT Orlando or another theme park? Disney should be connected, but the system should not limit itself to Disney. That only hurts potential ridership numbers. Plus, nothing good comes out of designing something that completely eliminates your everyday local commuter trips.
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 11:52:31 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2009, 11:21:20 AM
QuoteAugust 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board......... $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.
These are just so typical of the statements Mica makes,..........the FRA makes those determinations, unless Mica plans to put in an earmark, but that's a far cry from being "promised."
Faye...promised in this case is the 50% Federal match for new transit projects that meet FRA/FTA requirements.
Lakelander, we've discussed some of these things before. There are also many business folks who come to the convention center, or tourists who come to just shop on International Drive given that our dollar has plummeted.
There are more different sources of ridership for the Florida HSR than most other HSR projects. Besides it fits in with the Disney flair of Florida ;D
Ock has one thing right:
Quote"Faye is supporting the Florida High Speed Rail plan because we need the jobs, we need the money, we need a showcase rail system"
and Florida is the state that could have this system up and running in 2014. Yay!!
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 22, 2009, 12:25:15 PM
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 11:52:31 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2009, 11:21:20 AM
QuoteAugust 31, 2009; Daytona Beach News Journal editorial board......... $300 million in other federal funds that U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, says are promised, should reduce the financial obligation of local partners like Volusia County. That should ease the concerns of SunRail opponents who have blocked the Legislature's approval of the commuter line deal with CSX railroad company for two years.
These are just so typical of the statements Mica makes,..........the FRA makes those determinations, unless Mica plans to put in an earmark, but that's a far cry from being "promised."
Faye...promised in this case is the 50% Federal match for new transit projects that meet FRA/FTA requirements.
Oh really? Hmmm, I wonder why these dollars are suddenly available as in "other federal funds," and all of a sudden it's supposed to reduce the burden on Volusia and other counties. Surely he would have mentioned the usual 50% matching funds twice before when Sunrail was under consideration.........
No, he's been pulling federal dollars out of his hat, and has previously been called on it by others outside the traditional media which blindly reports whatever Mica says.
Ironically Mica seems to be rejecting the $2.5 billion dollars in stimulus funds that really could be available to Florida, just like Mica rejected the entire stimulus package for Florida that saved hundreds of teacher jobs.
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 12:27:26 PM
Lakelander, we've discussed some of these things before. There are also many business folks who come to the convention center, or tourists who come to just shop on International Drive given that our dollar has plummeted.
There are more different sources of ridership for the Florida HSR than most other HSR projects. Besides it fits in with the Disney flair of Florida ;D
The question is how many will find HSR useful with the crazy fare? You're only saving 30 minutes on travel time but you'll lose it waiting to catch the train and on the final leg of your trip (from train station to bus/rental car center to final destination,etc.). Is that really worth $30 a ticket? MCO to Disney is viable (probably better as LRT) but past Disney, the way its set up is risky at best. I know in the long term this is only a small part of a larger system, but we need to do everything possible to make sure it works or else there won't be a larger system.
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 12:27:26 PM
Lakelander, we've discussed some of these things before. There are also many business folks who come to the convention center, or tourists who come to just shop on International Drive given that our dollar has plummeted.
There are more different sources of ridership for the Florida HSR than most other HSR projects. Besides it fits in with the Disney flair of Florida ;D
Ock has one thing right:
Quote"Faye is supporting the Florida High Speed Rail plan because we need the jobs, we need the money, we need a showcase rail system"
and Florida is the state that could have this system up and running in 2014. Yay!!
True we do need those things, as in the USA needs those things. What we do not need is another poorly planned rail project such as the Skyway, or Miami Tri-Rail, coming out of Florida. If this mess of a HSR plan is up and running by 2014, you will be able to join the deluded minions as we plunge like lemmings off a cliff.
Even the national numbers from the APTA, just published, demonstrate that FLORIDA DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE on transit in general and rail in particular.
Jacksonville, Failed
Tampa, Streetcar development success, but ridership isn't where it should be as they stopped short of a complete system.
Orlando, Failed, BRT with ridership lower then a pay toilet in a diarrhea ward.
West Palm, Failed, Tri-Rail goes SOUTHWEST and misses the key urban areas.
Ft. Lauderdale, Failed, Tri-Rail (see West Palm)
Miami, Failed, Tri-Rail (see West Palm)
Miami, Failed, Metro Rail can't be what it should because we won't complete it... Skyway anyone?
Miami, Limited Success, DPM, they just decided to give away the rides on their Skyway.
Miami, Failed?, BRT, is too early to tell much, but locals had MUCH rather had the old rail line rather then the "super bus freeway", now talking about opening all BRT to mixed traffic!
Add to this the history of not saving a single traction line in the state and you come up with more Disney like magic. Pensacola, Fernandina Beach, Jacksonville, South Jacksonville, St. Augustine, Palatka, Daytona Beach, Orlando, Sanford, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Sarasota, Palm Beach, Miami, Key West... All destroyed in the name of "modern flexible bus transit." OCKLAWAHA
Lake...I've never really thought that $30 is too much for a one-way ticket....I used to pay $25 to go from Philly to Baltimore...and it saved about 20 minutes in travel time and $6 in tolls
^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone). Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four). The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities. Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?
Well I have had my doubts about Representative Mica for quite sometime ......but he does not represent me! lake I have to agree with your thoughts regarding the total cost of any rail system in that part of the world! That would be the biggest obstacle that I can see.........number of trains might be another as well as scheduling but that's not the issue! What ever is inserted there will have to be something that the regular locals can use a regular basis or it will wither and die! Cost will be something that any private/public enterprise will have to take into account as well as the cost to initiate any system!
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 02:22:09 PM
^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone). Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four). The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities. Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?
Lake, I have also heard that the ticket price can be as low as $20.
And believe me when I say, I know all about large families. I have raised 5 children on my own, and my biggest obstacle even as I lived in Orlando was the crazy high admission price to any of the Disney amusement Parks. My 2 daughters went in recently and had to pay $80 each. You really think $20 or even $30 each way on HSR would be perceived as high by those tourists? I don't think so at all.
In a previous post, I mentioned that I paid just as much for HSR for the same distance in the Netherlands, four tickets. But I was glad to do it,.......it saved me renting a car.
So going to disney from MCO you can certainly avoid renting a car, so long as you remain a Disney captive.
If you desire to visit any other location, a car will be in order.
You do have the option of re-boarding HSR and giving downtown Tampa a visit. Would that include another fare?
I really do want high speed rail. I would also welcome any Jobs that new construction migh bring. Being but a layperson, I don't really know how it all works out, but most here who do have extensive experience in Mass Transit and Logistics seem to think this is not the best plan to go forward with. In fact they seem to feel it is a bad plan. Is your experience such that it supercedes that of our resident experts?
Riding in Amsterdam is fun.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 02:22:09 PM
^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone). Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four). The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities. Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?
well actually the train did stop in Wilmington....and I was usually going to the suburbs of Baltimore....my mother would just drive to the train station and pick me up....just like airplane passengers do.
So you would pay $100 (for five people) to catch the train from Lakeland to Disney? I'd chose to pay $10 for gas and drive 20 minutes. You would save $90 and get there in the same amount of time. I would not also base a transit system so heavily on Disney. Most people who stay in Central Florida and travel daily on I-4, don't spend much time on Disney's grounds.
It is not the smartest thing to design a transit system heavily based on tourist and assuming all of your riders want to go to Disney (especially from DT Tampa). Its really questionable when Disney themselves have no intention of eliminating their own free shuttle service between MCO and their property. If you're going to invest $2.5 billion on something, it should not be built so substantially on risks. We should try to actually address the commuting problem on I-4 as well. This calls for a lower fare service that makes more frequent stops. If there is really a market for express service, then that can easily be added but it should not take top priority.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 22, 2009, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 02:22:09 PM
^You would if you had a wife and kids (assuming we're talking about tourist...tourist normally don't travel alone). Then $60 roundtrip turns into $240 (family of four). The other difference is the train you mentioned took you to/from the heart of those cities. Would you have taken the train from Baltimore to Philly, if it dropped you off in Wilmington or Chester?
well actually the train did stop in Wilmington....and I was usually going to the suburbs of Baltimore....my mother would just drive to the train station and pick me up....just like airplane passengers do.
I guess your case is an exception to the rule. However, I would not call this common and would not endorse spending as much as $2.5 billion to provide you with that type of service. Instead, I'd send that train right into DT Philly. Wilmington would be a stop along the way (ex. Plant City, Haines City, etc.). Doing this would accommodate your trip, as well as everyday commuters.
Quote from: buckethead on October 22, 2009, 04:59:34 PM
I really do want high speed rail. I would also welcome any Jobs that new construction migh bring. Being but a layperson, I don't really know how it all works out, but most here who do have extensive experience in Mass Transit and Logistics seem to think this is not the best plan to go forward with. In fact they seem to feel it is a bad plan. Is your experience such that it supercedes that of our resident experts?
Riding in Amsterdam is fun.
You are right,.....the LRT in Amsterdam is fun and convenient and actually DOES connect to HSR to Utrect and Eindhoven, where I went to visit my mom and dad.
The Utrecht stop would be like the Lakeland stop.
Having experience in Mass Transit and Logistics isn't reserved for Metrojacksonville alone. There are others in this state that have studied and worked in the Mass Transit arena from a planning and user perspective as well, and the vast majority look favorable to Florida's HSR application, though most would have preferred the Orlando Miami route to start with.
But it's hard to ask the feds for an even bigger chuck of HSR money, when Florida has a history of playing politics with mass transit, in particular rail.
The Orlando/Miami link would have made more sense to move forward with, since the idea is HSR or bust. However, its significantly more expensive, which is why Tampa/Orlando segment was picked. Unfortunately, this short segment is not the best corridor for HSR implementation. Hopefully, they can secure funds and begin construction on the Miami segment before the Tampa/Orlando link is completed. At least then, you won't have to worry about the system not being completed due to the failure of an isolated phase 1 link.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 06:01:18 PM
The Orlando/Miami link would have made more sense to move forward with, since the idea is HSR or bust. However, its significantly more expensive, which is why Tampa/Orlando segment was picked. Unfortunately, this short segment is not the best corridor for HSR implementation. Hopefully, they can secure funds and begin construction on the Miami segment before the Tampa/Orlando link is completed. At least then, you won't have to worry about the system not being completed due to the failure of an isolated phase 1 link.
Lake, I think we've found common ground. I fully agree.
I think they should conect jax to the SEHSR first ok Miami to ORL at the same time.
It looks like that connection (at least in the short term) will be the Amtrak/FEC project, which will run up to 90 mph.
Is there reasonable hope of converting the Amtrack line to HSR in the relatively near future?
No. But whether its HSR or conventional intercity rail should not really matter. More important than the "highest speed" issue is the need to upgrade the areas of track that cause trains to move slower. Florida has to crawl before it runs.
lake........I agree! It is not the idea of Orlando getting a system that should be statewide but the idea that particular system is basically a stand alone system. Whether or not it is a LR or a trolley is not material but the idea of trying to incorporate a system there with supposed HSR is not cost efficient! A better choice maybe the proposed FEC/Amtrak corridor to Miami.....with a track upgrade! It is not the idea of 110 mph+ at this stage but the idea of the service being started. Properly set up it could possibly stand on its own and prove the HSR concept and show just what could be rather than an Orlando system in an island!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2618/3956095496_1909391290.jpg)
Florida High Speed Rail, circa 2021... Just kidding, it's really in Colombia, ain't it pretty!Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 05:54:06 PM
Having experience in Mass Transit and Logistics isn't reserved for Metrojacksonville alone. There are others in this state that have studied and worked in the Mass Transit arena from a planning and user perspective as well, and the vast majority look favorable to Florida's HSR application, though most would have preferred the Orlando Miami route to start with.
How true Faye, just off the top I can name 6 of us who are in some form or another transportation planners. One international, two with local firms that farm out work, and three with JTA. Giving credit where it is due, Jacksonville, and Florida in general has a highway system that even California would dream of...certainly when it comes to our busy urban interchanges. We do flyovers where ever we can replace a deadly cloverleaf, and Los Angeles, builds a 2,000 foot merge lane with a traffic light that should read "STOMP ON IT - or - DIE TRYING." Our local firm RS&H played with the designs at JIA and burst onto the national market to show everyone how an airport should be designed, again excellence.
With rail we have been the biggest collection of dumb asses ever to approach a track. See I can be a spokesman for HSR! IDIOTS! Our track record is horrible, take a look:
Miami Tri-Rail, 5 million riders a year, one of the lowest figures in the nation, in one of the hottest markets. The reason is pretty obvious, you can't serve the West Palm - Miami, market by skirting the Everglades. That track is former Seaboard which didn't arrive in Miami until Jan. 8, 1927. By that time the roaring twenty's and the Great Florida Boom had shut them out of anything like a urban core route. Meanwhile the Florida East Coast RY had been doing business and building cities along that corridor since April 1896. So in today's urban setting, guess which route FDOT chose to build upon?
Jacksonville? Okay, the Skyway is rail, monorail, the future of transportation if you ask anyone on the street that DOESN'T know it's checkered history. So we designed a system from Shands to Riverside, from the stadium to San Marco, and even a westward link that "could" be expanded into Durkeeville. Don't finish a single branch of the system, don't get riders, Duh, and call it failed.
Yeah, I write detailed stuff Faye, because the DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS. The current HSR plan stinks to high heavens, with you on board, Mica on board, and anyone else short of the Holy Trinity.
Orlando - Tampa: As stated over and over, it doesn't serve anybody in the metro area. It's a tourist attraction, and one more Florida, fun ride for Uncle Dave and his carload of snowbirds.
OIA, is NOT the place for a multi-modal terminal, International Drive better, Orlando Amtrak, better yet, and finally Church Street Station or the new Lynx station...PERFECT. Tie it to Amtrak, tie it to LRT to OIA, tie it to Sunrail, and make the damn thing do something.
The CSX Orlando Utilities branchline east of the Airport is not the best location for a yard and maintenance facility. Sanford still has the bones of the old ACL/CSX Diesel shops, with a complete yard, and Lake Monroe is the site of the fairly large, seldom used Rand Yard. Sanford was once a hub, and still is for Auto-Train, Oh I almost forgot, AMTRAK already has shops in SANFORD! So let's spend like fools and build a new one.
The Orlando - Miami plan isn't much better, again the Devil is in the details. IF we go south of the Orlando Airport, or Sanford-Orlando International, or Amtrak at either location, we have two choices. Build the much more direct Kissimmee Valley route (so called Turnpike Route) which takes the train away from every metro between West Palm and Orlando... Unless we can count Yeehaw Junction and Holopaw, as metro areas. So direct, but misses everybody, which makes it a great match for the screwed up Orlando - Tampa segment that also misses everybody.
The second choice is head straight to the coast, highway 50, I-4, somewhere between Daytona Beach and Melbourne and Orlando. Trouble is, if we waste the time to run 30-50 miles east, then south, a Greyhound on The Florida Turnpike could do almost as good. You would also have to factor in stops in all of those places, which will drag your 150 mph train down to a realistic 60-70 mph average speed. For all those bucks, hell knows anyone could do better on I-95. (http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2922/252altaria11qs8.jpg)
We boast about our "First World" status, but the words taste like crap when we do this SOUTH OF THE BORDER!QuoteBut it's hard to ask the feds for an even bigger chuck of HSR money, when Florida has a history of playing politics with mass transit, in particular rail.
Perhaps this is why at least one of our "professional staff at MJ" (Trabajará para la torta de Colombiana, hee hee) will work for peso's, and take the sweet life of sucre sal. OCKLAWAHA(http://m.b5z.net/i/u/6118299/i/120px-Animated-Flag-Colombia.gif)
Colombia Es Pasion
One thing in retrospect, as of 1920, we HAD rail lines that extended from:
Orlando-Winter Park-Oviedo-Lake Charm, former SAL
Sanford-Sanford NAS (airport today)-Oviedo-Truck Center, former ACL(less then a mile from the Florida East Coast)
Sanford-Benson Junction-Enterprise-Maytown-Titusville, former FEC
New Smyrna Beach-Lake Helen-Orange City, former FEC
New Smyrna Beach-Maytown-Osceola-Geneva-Chuluota-Holopaw-Yeehaw-Okeechobee-Belle Glade, and was graded to Miami but never finished due to depression, THIS IS the HSR valley line, just something else we had and abandoned. former FEC
Sanford-Cameron City (ghost town, Southeast of Sanford Airport) former Sanford and Everglades streetcar line, bought by ACL and abandoned in the 1980's.
Add to these the mainlines, FEC down the East Coast, and ACL Jax-Palatka-Deland-Sanford-Orlando-Tampa, and Seaboard Orlando-Tavares-Leesburg-Wildwood (today only the Orlando-Tavares segment is still in place).
Great work Florida! TAX EM WHILE YOU CAN BECAUSE WHEN THE CARS QUIT MOVING SO DOES THE BUCK! Relief or abandonment, we made another stupid choice.OCKLAWAHAQuotePS: What did your American mind tell you when you saw the peasant on the horse in Colombia (above)? Would you have guessed that he owns about all of the land in the photo, has a huge freaking ranch house - for weekends only, (it's a Colombian thing to have your Finca). He has a Land Rover, A jeep CJ, and a fancy french sedan, Peugeot 407 that still has the new smell inside! Engineer, builds highway tunnels... pretty cool really!
Ock...........what leaves me speechless is the notion of what we had at one time and then just wrote it all off! The ROW should still be in place, along with some stabilized bedding and seems to me that this is something that could come to life without too much effort or cost? There are several corridors that would be of benefit in either LRT mode or true HSR.....we have options to select from but the powers that be just don't seem to get the notion about rail! I am glad to see that some of the neighboring counties are trying to plan ahead and think about the possible consequences of horizon to horizon concrete but there are still pockets of resistance to a simple concept.........put some rail in, plan around it and do it. From my view the answer is not more concrete but to make more efficient use of what we already have.......same goes for ROW and rail!
Let me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!
John Mica is the Real Dog :P
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 23, 2009, 08:06:11 AM
Let me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!
I too will offer a hand of help and qualify your message with the postscript: "If it actually goes to/through the cities."
Anything less is not intercity rail.
If John Mica is the real dog, then he deserves a milk bone for attacking this theif of a HSR plan!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2009, 10:56:16 PM
With rail we have been the biggest collection of dumb asses ever to approach a track. See I can be a spokesman for HSR! IDIOTS! Our track record is horrible, take a look:
Miami Tri-Rail, 5 million riders a year, one of the lowest figures in the nation, in one of the hottest markets. The reason is pretty obvious, you can't serve the West Palm - Miami, market by skirting the Everglades. That track is former Seaboard which didn't arrive in Miami until Jan. 8, 1927. By that time the roaring twenty's and the Great Florida Boom had shut them out of anything like a urban core route. Meanwhile the Florida East Coast RY had been doing business and building cities along that corridor since April 1896. So in today's urban setting, guess which route FDOT chose to build upon?
I hate to bother you with figures, but at 5 million riders a year, that's almost
14,000 riders per day and is considered a huge success, look at this headline:
QuotePosted January 5, 2009
TRI-RAIL SETS NEW RIDERSHIP RECORDS IN 2008
Ironically, you and the other MJ folks are fans of the Central Florida Commuter Rail that is projected to have minimal ridership,........... an embarrassingly low ridership of just
3,500 daily riders.
But to be totally fair we also need to compare the miles on each: 61 miles for the Central Florida Commuter Rail vs 75 miles for the Tri-Rail line, so the Tri-Rail isn't significantly longer to capture more riders that way.
Hmmmm, as Ock would say: "I smell a rat"
Being front of the line is a good thing for Florida, especially since we are in dire need of jobs, although I whole-heartedly agree with tufsu1's condensed summary:
QuoteLet me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!
Faye using data! I like it.
Source not cited, but I'm sure she wouldn't make the numbers up.
If we get the FEC Amtrak west palm is looking to create hyper local service in south fla on the FEC tracks.
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 23, 2009, 08:20:22 AM
John Mica is the Real Dog :P
Though I would never say that,.......... Mica's own word choice does have a real history of occasionally colorful language use, dispersed in his otherwise boring and monotonous statements.
At one point he crudely called welfare recipients aligators
Must have a thing for or against animals ;D
I wonder how he feels now with our 11% unemployment rate.
Gentlemen & Lady..........I keep coming back to using what we have in place now as in right this very minute! I don't have a problem adding something that enhances what is already there but gosh darn it........We got track right now and it is not used to the fullest by any account!Got no problem with Orlando getting something that is not there right now.......but I keep coming back to "what could $2.5 billion dollars do to enhance what is here now"? I believe it is called prioritizing and I don't see that taking place much at all!
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 23, 2009, 10:47:32 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2009, 10:56:16 PM
With rail we have been the biggest collection of dumb asses ever to approach a track. See I can be a spokesman for HSR! IDIOTS! Our track record is horrible, take a look:
Miami Tri-Rail, 5 million riders a year, one of the lowest figures in the nation, in one of the hottest markets. The reason is pretty obvious, you can't serve the West Palm - Miami, market by skirting the Everglades. That track is former Seaboard which didn't arrive in Miami until Jan. 8, 1927. By that time the roaring twenty's and the Great Florida Boom had shut them out of anything like a urban core route. Meanwhile the Florida East Coast RY had been doing business and building cities along that corridor since April 1896. So in today's urban setting, guess which route FDOT chose to build upon?
I hate to bother you with figures, but at 5 million riders a year, that's almost 14,000 riders per day and is considered a huge success, look at this headline:
QuotePosted January 5, 2009
TRI-RAIL SETS NEW RIDERSHIP RECORDS IN 2008
Ironically, you and the other MJ folks are fans of the Central Florida Commuter Rail that is projected to have minimal ridership,........... an embarrassingly low ridership of just 3,500 daily riders.
But to be totally fair we also need to compare the miles on each: 61 miles for the Central Florida Commuter Rail vs 75 miles for the Tri-Rail line, so the Tri-Rail isn't significantly longer to capture more riders that way.
Hmmmm, as Ock would say: "I smell a rat"
Being front of the line is a good thing for Florida, especially since we are in dire need of jobs, although I whole-heartedly agree with tufsu1's condensed summary:
QuoteLet me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!
I think most here are in favor of an Amtrak corridor service over HSR and Sunrail (I know I am), but I'll bite. Did Tri-Rail start of at this number in 1987? Or is this after over 20 years of operation, a connection with other local rail systems and a region twice the size of Orlando and a couple times denser? Just trying to put things in the proper perspective.
Anyway, I think South Florida has finally embraced mass transit now that they are at buildout stage and Tri-Rail, Metrorail and the Metromover are all benefitting from that (all struggled in their early years). Hopefully, if the Amtrak/FEC thing works out, they can find a way to provide service along the denser FEC corridor.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2009, 10:47:32 AM
With rail we have been the biggest collection of dumb asses ever to approach a track. See I can be a spokesman for HSR! IDIOTS! Our track record is horrible, take a look:
Miami Tri-Rail, 5 million riders a year, one of the lowest figures in the nation, in one of the hottest markets. The reason is pretty obvious, you can't serve the West Palm - Miami, market by skirting the Everglades. That track is former Seaboard which didn't arrive in Miami until Jan. 8, 1927. By that time the roaring twenty's and the Great Florida Boom had shut them out of anything like a urban core route. Meanwhile the Florida East Coast RY had been doing business and building cities along that corridor since April 1896. So in today's urban setting, guess which route FDOT chose to build upon?
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 10:56:16 PM
I hate to bother you with figures, but at 5 million riders a year, that's almost 14,000 riders per day and is considered a huge success, look at this headline:
QuotePosted January 5, 2009
TRI-RAIL SETS NEW RIDERSHIP RECORDS IN 2008
Does this mean you didn't think all of the other systems reached ridership peaks during the most recent gasoline price hikes? Even our humble JTA set new records, but apples to apples, or to Oranges, Miami's Tri-Rail is a non-performer. The fact is it was built on the WRONG RAILROAD LINE, had they built it on the FEC, in the first place, which is the newly hatched corridor Jeffery, is so correct about, we might be leading the national numbers.
You want to be one of our public servants, but like much of the rest of Florida, you'll support any project that brings in "free money," (please recall that much of that is out of our pockets) and gives us another flashy new rail system built on the WRONG SPOT. I realize with so much promo going on anybody could get on here and post endless copy's of glowing articles, but that doesn't make them right. We already have a rail system, and we don't need to reinvent the wheel until we prove that we can move people from Tampa to Brooksville, Orlando to Tavares, Jacksonville to St. Augustine, but we haven't paid any attention to this. We have years of rail neglect, and frankly if Obama, you or anyone else pushes this train through because "It's cool, just like Denmark...etc..." We'll be wishing we had never seen a train.
I know you hate the details, but in a scattered review of national numbers, rate TRI-RAIL. Here are a few facts for you to consider:QuoteCRT= Commuter Rail, LRT= Light Rail Transit, HRT= Heavy Rail Transit (some mile figures are track miles)
Tri-Rail South Florida, CRT: 144 miles, 4.3 million 2008 (official count)
Caltrain, CRT: 79 miles, 12.7 million FY2009
Valley Metro, LRT: 19.6 miles, 33,480 daily riders, won't be fully open until 2010
BART, HRT: 104 miles, 103.3 million
Los Angeles County MTA: 55.7 LRT/17.4 HRT, 40 million LRT/38 million HRT
Sacramento Regional Transit District, LRT: 37.4 miles, 14.5 million
Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority, LRT: 81 miles, 10.8 million
Regional Transportation District Denver, LRT, 35 miles, 21 million
Chicago Transit Authority, HRT: 224.1 miles, 198.2 million
Twin Cities Metro Transit, LRT: 12 miles, 10.2 million, still incomplete Under Construction plus CRT
St. Louis Metro, LRT: 46 miles, 53 million
New Jersey Transit, CRT/LRT: 500 miles CRT/ 60.7 LRT 81.6 million CRT/22.3 million LRT
NYC Transit, HRT: 233 miles, 1.6 Billion
Charlotte Area Transit System, LRT: 9.6 miles, 5 million (new system FY 2009 numbers)
Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, 26.2 LRT/38.6 HRT, 3.3 million LRT/6.4 million HRT
TriMet, LRT: no miles given (constant additions), CRT new start, 35.2 million
SEPTA, LRT, HRT, CRT: LRT 56.1 miles, HRT 24.1 miles, CRT 292 miles, 29.9 million LRT, 93.3 million HRT, 35.5 CRT
Dallas Area Rapid Transit, LRT/Streetcar: 45 miles, 19.4 million, incomplete under construction
UTA UT, LRT, CRT: 20 miles LRT/45 miles CRT, 13.9 million LRT, 1.4 million May-Dec 2008 CRT just opened FrontRunner, 70 miles under construction including both CRT/LRT
SOURCE: Passenger Rail at a Glance, pp I-18, OCT 2009, Progressive Railroading Magazine
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 22, 2009, 10:56:16 PM
Ironically, you and the other MJ folks are fans of the Central Florida Commuter Rail that is projected to have minimal ridership,........... an embarrassingly low ridership of just 3,500 daily riders.
But to be totally fair we also need to compare the miles on each: 61 miles for the Central Florida Commuter Rail vs 75 miles for the Tri-Rail line, so the Tri-Rail isn't significantly longer to capture more riders that way.
QuoteBeing front of the line is a good thing for Florida, especially since we are in dire need of jobs, although I whole-heartedly agree with tufsu1's condensed summary:
QuoteLet me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!
Gee Whiz Faye, think of all the poor highway worker jobs you'll be terminating, that's a shell game your playing with the job sob story, I don't buy it. As for commuter rail, here, Tampa or Orlando, trying to stack projections against hard numbers, such as the above examples, is like trying to grab onto air.
I'm not even saying we shouldn't be proud of Tri-Rail and be supporting it and pushing it's expansion. God knows South Florida needs all the help it can get, but Tallahassee is deaf, dumb and blind. The logic of taking the money from Tri-Rail to build Sunrail sounds more like a plot from "A Clockwork Orange." In the world of Commuter Rail ONLY, Tri-Rail is around number 11 of 21 systems, not bad, considering the route, but there are those damn details you love to hate. With the population, length, infrastructure, traffic counts, and density, of South Florida, had they built it right the first time, we'd probably be pushing into Chicago/New York type numbers today. But hey what do I know, I'm just an expatriot that is starting to feel like "HOME" is an hour southwest of Cuba. QuoteHere's Jeffery's information from the industry:
In the 2025 and 2030 long range transportation plans, Tri-Rail has envisioned moving to or adding service on the Florida East Coast (FEC) rail corridor, which runs next to U.S. 1 (Biscayne Boulevard/Brickell Avenue in Miami-Dade County, and Federal Highway in Broward & Palm Beach Counties). This corridor will provide more opportunities for pedestrian travel from stations to end destinations than does the current South Florida Rail Corridor, which must rely almost exclusively on shuttle buses for passenger distribution
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 23, 2009, 11:28:10 PM
In the world of Commuter Rail ONLY, Tri-Rail is around number 11 of 21 systems, not bad, considering the route, but there are those damn details you love to hate. With the population, length, infrastructure, traffic counts, and density, of South Florida, had they built it right the first time, we'd probably be pushing into Chicago/New York type numbers today. But hey what do I know, I'm just an expatriot that is starting to feel like "HOME" is an hour southwest of Cuba. [/color] [/b]
QuoteHere's Jeffery's information from the industry:
In the 2025 and 2030 long range transportation plans, Tri-Rail has envisioned moving to or adding service on the Florida East Coast (FEC) rail corridor, which runs next to U.S. 1 (Biscayne Boulevard/Brickell Avenue in Miami-Dade County, and Federal Highway in Broward & Palm Beach Counties). This corridor will provide more opportunities for pedestrian travel from stations to end destinations than does the current South Florida Rail Corridor, which must rely almost exclusively on shuttle buses for passenger distribution
You know, criticizing our existing commuter rail, when it does quite well, even though it could have done better on another route, is fairly useless. It's making the good, the enemy of the perfect.
Truth is we should be happy to have at least one commuter rail line in Florida, and we better fully support it or we foolishly will lose out on federal monies, and I'm not just talking HSR monies:
QuoteLegislators have previously rejected a proposed $2 surcharge on car rentals to finance commuter-rail projects. That was despite the possibility that the state might have to give back some $256 million in federal aid if it does not provide a continuing funding source for Tri-Rail.
SunRail is even more problematic. The system would operate on CSX tracks in the Orlando area, and the most recent proposal called for holding the freight line harmless in any legal action resulting from the firm's negligence. CSX also wants $150 million for use of its tracks and another $500 million for improvements to CSX facilities. The Florida Senate rightly rejected that proposal.
Long-awaited commitment
Atwater, however, said federal officials might be flexible in how they view the state's commitment.
"This is about rail in Florida; it's not about SunRail specifically," Atwater said after the Washington meeting. "That's what their communication was to us today: 'Look, we need to see long-term commitment on rail activity in Florida if we're going to make this investment.'"
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20091025/OPINION/910251023/2198/OPINION?Title=Running-for-the-train
Funny how you keep criticizing the Tri-Rail Ridership, but have no problem with the Central Florida Commuter Rail only taking 3,500 riders off the I-4, which has 170,000 roders each day. Quite deceitful in my mind as it should be in everyone's mind.
Screw them both! Give me an Amtrak corridor service. ;D
lake I gotta agree with you! FEC/Amtrak has a better shot at getting something going rather than what is trying to take place Orlando way! The hell with Mica and his posse.....If Amtrak is serious then we net to get it going!
For those just joining this long standing ramble: FayeforCure, in making a bid to support Central Florida HSR, has stated that we need to support all rail projects in Florida. She has used data showing that Tri-Rail in Miami, has broken ridership records in the recent fuel crunch, yet she is fighting Central Florida Commuter Rail/AKA: Sunrail.
I have replied that the High Speed Rail, as it now appears, is a BAD PLAN. My contention, and that of most of MJ's staff, is that a train from Orlando Airport to Disney to Downtown Tampa, without passing through the center, or even close to a single intermediate town is poor planning. I recently was critical of Miami's Tri-Rail, in spite of the spike in ridership because it too was poorly planned by FDOT, my contention being while we should support and fix Tri-Rail, they should have built it through the intermediate towns directly on the FEC track and not "Way Out West", as they did. Quote from: FayeforCure on October 25, 2009, 03:39:33 PM
Funny how you keep criticizing the Tri-Rail Ridership, but have no problem with the Central Florida Commuter Rail only taking 3,500 riders off the I-4, which has 170,000 roders each day. Quite deceitful in my mind as it should be in everyone's mind.
Could that be because I am the dark and evil Ocklawaha, or is it that Tri-Rail is dealing with real people on the worst possible route we could have built and Sun Rail's numbers are only "projections." Faye, transit projections have been so wildly off, usually far, under the real performance of different forms of commuter rail, that they're becoming laughable. Sunrail, would at least serve community centers, middle of town, all the way from start to finish. This tells me their numbers will quickly pull away from your Airport-Disney shuttle train. Man when this HSR thing stops north of Haines City, you better have your hiking shoes on... or another $30 to get you to Haines City from the middle of I-4 and nowhere in a 1979 model Chevy Taxi.
I'm certainly no enemy of rail in any form, but it must be done right, on budget and on time, after all are you willing to stake our States transportation future. You see Faye, it isn't just Lake, Stephendare or myself who are saying Tri-Rail is off track (even though the idea is RIGHT): QuoteMiami Downtown Development Authority hashing out plans to bring Tri-Rail downtown.
By Catherine Lackner
Commuters who travel by rail into downtown Miami from points north might have their journeys shortened considerably if a new plan to bring Tri-Rail into the central business district succeeds.
The tri-county commuter train runs daily from Miami to West Palm Beach on tracks owned by CSX, which means riders must disembark at Northwest 79th Street in northwest Miami-Dade and board Metrorail to get downtown. But Florida East Coast Railway tracks just blocks from the transfer point head directly downtown, and switching Tri-Rail onto those tracks would give the train â€" and commuters â€" a straight shot.
"If we could bring Tri-Rail downtown it would be a huge advantage," Vice Chair Neisen Kasdin told board members of Miami's Downtown Development Authority this month. It's been shown that the fewer transfers and accommodations riders are forced to make, the more likely they are to use trains, he said.
"It's a priority to get Miami-Dade County behind it," he said, noting that there has been a perception that a re-routed Tri-Rail would compete with Metrorail.
While long-range plans for South Florida include passenger rail transportation into downtown Miami eventually, "This would be quicker and much less expensive," Mr. Kasdin said.
Board member Oscar Rodriguez asked how it could be done.
"Tri-Rail will negotiate with FEC," Mr. Kasdin said. "In fact, they're having discussions now."
"We are looking at that option," confirmed Bonnie Arnold, Tri-Rail spokeswoman. "FEC comes across our corridor just south of Northwest 79th Street." The potential downtown Miami link and a planned extension to Jupiter are already part of presentations that have been shown would-be investors, she said.
The Florida Department of Transportation is also studying the issue as part of its long-term agenda, she added.
"We have to provide advocacy and leadership if we want this done," Mr. Kasdin told the downtown authority's board. "I think we really ought to move on it as soon as possible."
(Source: Miami Today News, Oct 29, 2009)
HEY Y'ALL? DOES THIS ARTICLE/PLAN MAKE ME 6 FOR 6?OCKLAWAHA
Excellent! Now we would have an east line and a west line, once the FEC line is used by Tri-Rail.
None of this is a reason to let the existing Tri-Rail (east line) languish without dedicated state funding. End of story.
As I said: there is no reason to make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Yeah Ock..........it does look like your 6 for 6, but that's just because your crystal ball is high end and evidently fresh out of overhaul! I really think there should be a dedicated funding source for all rail not just isolated pockets where counties are funding a system out of their own pockets. If that be the case then each county would need to step up and those counties with few residents would be more strapped than the more populated ones. Looked at from that point..........a simple $2 Dollar tax on rental vehicles would be the easiest to swallow,we charge bed tax's now as does most of the country.....any more on the hospitality industry and it will go further down then it already has. If the state of Florida can not fund out of state coffers, then we need to come up with an alternative or we will never have no mass transit system but isolated pockets!
When you see the current Tri-Rail stations from I95 they do look isolated but it is probably also good advertising to people interested in Miami to see they have commuter rail.
sorry Ock...this doesn't make you 6 for 6.....Tri-Rail, as originally planneed, was to provide a relatively high speed route from West Palm while I-95 was under construction.....having the tracks adjcent to I-95 meant that it was accessible by car (most stations are park & ride) and in the center of the three counties.
While I like the idea of running transit on the FEC through the area, imagine how long it would take to travel from West Palm Beach to Miami through all those downtowns...I'm guessing almost 2 hours instead of the current 1 hour Tri-Rail ride...and do some research on what they now say LRT along this corridor would cost.
Now, as for Miami itself....the end of the Tri-Rail line was always poorly located....whichis why the second to last stop was the busiest, as it tied into MetroRail....the final stop is close to the Airport and will be tied into the new Miami Intermodal Center (MIC) that is under construction, providing a direct connection to the Airport.
And guess what else....there will be an east-west MetroRail line connecting the MIC with downtown....so at this point, I would not be in favor of a Tri-Rail extension into downtown.
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 29, 2009, 12:39:08 AM
Excellent! Now we would have an east line and a west line, once the FEC line is used by Tri-Rail.
None of this is a reason to let the existing Tri-Rail (east line) languish without dedicated state funding. End of story.
As I said: there is no reason to make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Once again, we agree Faye. My point all along was the piss poor route they decided to use. Tusfu1, is simply lathing in a tub of old news. If Tri-Rail can't use the FEC due to congestion, thus making the FDOT "smart," in picking the worst, BFE route, between the end points, then I suppose (as you WELL KNOW FAYE) that Los Angeles will NEVER be able to have Commuter Rail. My God, railroads through downtowns? At grade crossings? Yeah, a real deal killer, tell that to METROLINK, SURFLINERS, AMTRAK CALIFORNIA, AMTRAK, etc... Ah slow as hell? Really? Last ride on Metrolink from Agua Dulce (Palmdale) to Los Angeles Union Terminal, we were overtaking cars on I-5 like they were in reverse.
This is all I'm saying, not that I don't support Tri-Rail, Sunrail, Tampa, and the citizens dreams for JAX.. Nobody is holding Tri-Rail, MetroLink, FEC Corridor, etc... up to LRT transit, while they are from the same litter, your now talking about a different puppy, tu.. Faye, has brought up Orlando LRT several times, which is a project, not unlike Tampa. I support the idea, but how in hell did we come up with figures higher then most Subways, Heavy Rail, or elevated LRT? I would suggest the promoters and defenders of the BUS RAPID TRANSIT school of higher transportation living, have managed to convince themselves, reading their own propaganda.
"The people want buses, they hate rail." Mike Miller, JTA
"LRT is not a good fit for Jacksonville." Scott Clem, JTA
"Rail is just rail, the price of busways are getting cheaper every day." Ed Castinelli, JTA
"We'd like to do rail, SOMEDAY." Mike Blaylock, JTA
What does this tell you about JTA? Jacksonville? BRT? OCKLAWAHA
Steel on steel must be the deal!
Sorry, just couldn't resist.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 29, 2009, 10:01:33 AM
Tusfu1, is simply lathing in a tub of old news. If Tri-Rail can't use the FEC due to congestion, thus making the FDOT "smart," in picking the worst, BFE route, between the end points,
since when is I-95 in Palm Beach, Broward, or Miami-Dade Counties in BFE?
btw, I rode the commuter rail in San Diego....it goes through a whole bunch of undeveloped land....and completely bypasses the developed areas surrounding La Jolla....not even remotely comparable with the FEC line in south Florida.
I know how to fix the problem.............we need another "STUDY"! I bet tufsu1 can suggest someone willing to do that for us right?:-)
sure CS...another study would be good...and I'd like to recommend that you lead the effort because I'm sure you can do it for pennies on a dollar compared to all those high-cost consultants....but do keep us all up to speed on how your study is received by the approval agencies (FDOT, FTA, EPA, etc)!!
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6mr9&related=0
Enjoy the countryside view from the cab of the Surfliner, through Anaheim. Clicking on the full screen box, under the video is like a mini I-Max kind of mind blowing view (just hit esc to go back to MJ). BTW the in cab signaling is a very nice addition, you'll see actual speed, max authorized speed, and signal indication.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock...have any video of the train just north of San Diego....the part where it traverses 20 minutes through nothing?
tufsu1..............I would be more than willing to lead since I have lead most of my life........by the way you forgot about the FFA!
do you mean FRA?
Nope............FFA is Future Farmers of America..........had to yank your chain once dude! :) Have you ever noticed just how many acronyms there are out there?
CS, If you think we have a lot of acronyms in English, where we usually put together a string of letters, you should try a root based language like Arabic, Hebrew or Russian. Their acronyms turn into new words and they do it to EVERYTHING! Horribly confusing to anyone already trying to learn an already difficult language.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 31, 2009, 09:12:42 AM
Ock...have any video of the train just north of San Diego....the part where it traverses 20 minutes through nothing?
Sorry you thought you were in the middle of nowhere TUFSU1, You were in ROSE CANYON OPEN SPACE, which headed north starts out in a rather narrow canyon, then appears to be out in the mountains or some such... It's not, surrounded by development perched above you on all sides and hopefully, someday park and preserve land. After that you branch left into a tangle of curves in another narrow confine called Sorrento Canyon, as you come out you pop over the salt marshed then assume the waterfront mainline. I believe we did 90 on the salt marsh. Yes I have the ENTIRE trip on video, vhs, I'll be glad to let you see it. OCKLAWAHA
yes...I knew it was preserved open space....just thought since the Orlando Airport is in the "middle of nowhere", this would be too :-)
Nice try, but the Kissimmee River Valley and the St. Johns Rise, are just a wee bit larger then Sorrento Canyon. Except for greater metropolitan Kennansville, and Yeehaw Junction, or west into Green Swamp and the Withlacoochee Rise.
OCKLAWAHA
there is nothing close to this much open space along the Tampa - Orlando HSR route
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 01, 2009, 09:56:04 PM
there is nothing close to this much open space along the Tampa - Orlando HSR route
Uh, yeah, like Disney to Tampa via I-4... Sure there is some freeway clutter at the intersections but so much open or wooded land, it's sad that it will be destroyed by sprawl developers. You and I both know, if this lousy plan is adopted, every home builder in the Southeast will want to fill in the gaps, from Haines City to Leesburg, Lakeland to Dade City.
I really don't care if you designed it TUFSU1, guess I'm known in town for the one that keeps calling the City and State on dumb planning, and that's what this is. If we want the benefit of rail, City Center to City Center, then damn it, build it that way. Tallahassee needs to pick up the phone and dial 1-800-USA-RAIL. OCKLAWAHA
So tufsu1 had a finger in the design, or proposed design of that Orlando escapade? No wonder he is so positive about that project! Idea has merit but I still say that Jacksonville to Miami would be a better showcase for true HSR! Have no problems with thinking outside of the box (most times) but Orlando is not the one to showcase a system such as that...............one issue that has cropped up is where does the maintenance yard sit in relation to the system! If the HSR end is supposed to hit 150 mph plus, braking is paramount and high speeds equal high wear and have yet to see or hear of any proposal regarding where that particular yard will be situated? LRT with fully articulated cars would be a better fit for that area....pretty high speed, 3 or 4 car elements run on a timed element schedule and 24/7! Something along those lines is more of a fit for that part of the world not HSR!
Commuter rail with express trains (aka Caltrain) or an Amtrak corridor service (aka Pacific Surfliner) would be the best options for a Tampa to Orlando link. LRT would be ideal for linking Orlando's airport with Disney and I-Drive.
lake I concur! There are a variety of rail system's that could be used not just HSR! LRT or Commuter is not the issue but the correct type of people moving system that actually touches all of the population centers not just from Airport to kinda City Center! The more that I see what is proposed, the more that I am leaning against it! I have no problem with the jobs both before during and after the system is up and running but I have reservations regarding whether or not this is the area that we need to have an HSR system as a shining example of rail at its finest! I think if really needs to be something in excess of 380 miles out.......either Jax to Miami or Jax to Atlanta take your pick........but something out far enough to make it show the possibilities!
so Jax to Miami and Jax to ATL are 380+ miles away...I don't think so.
That said, may I suggest doing some research on high speed rail systems in Europe...check how many of them pass by smaller population centers...or whether any termini/stops outside of downtowns.
Ours should be a real winner then tusfu1, running from Florida's most inaccessible major airport to an amusement park, to a downtown where it will completely miss the station preserved to be the intermodal center. Brilliant!
While your remarks to do some research, and slap at the miles quoted, smacks of an elitist comment, I think CS, has a point. A line straight up the coastal cities, as close to the FEC as possible, from one end to the other would be far superior. So would a long, long, dreamed of "air line" from Tampa to Miami. I even bet you tusfu1, that you, Lake and I, could find old archived surveys, engineering drawings, and right-of-way, hidden away in some dusty corner, dating from the roaring 20's.
OCKLAWAHA
not elitist Ock, just informed :-)
Well tufsu1 according to FDOT Center of Jacksonville to Center of Miami is 359 miles by existing roads....so who is right, them or you?? If you went nautical miles or statue miles direct at 1K up......I know it would be less but I have no aircraft of anykind to make that altitude jump and then straight line direct. Shortest distance between two points is a direct line but I do not have any aerocharts or even ICW charts (That would be nautical sectional charts of Intercoastal Waterway) Don't have access to Loran C and GPS would require equipment that I no longer have.........so I gotta go with FDOT, even though I don't believe much of what they say about much of anything! Jacksonville to Miami either using existing tracks upgraded on ROW that FEC currently owns or controls or Jacksonville to Atlanta via tracks northbound......take your pick! Orlando is a stand alone system and serves nothing but an Airport,Mouseville and a City Center............Whopee! That is 2.5 Billion Dollars of my tax money hard at work for who? Local transit possibilities allmost zero for $60 Dollars.......so-called HSR with three to four stops and all this for only $2.5 BILLION DOLLARS? That is just to build it.....no funding to run or operate and this is the best we can do? I say back to the drawing board and come up with something practical and cost efficient! Any detours for traffic issues,wrecks or traffic incidents,bathroom breaks, fuel or something to eat would add mileage to that which is why I said 380 miles allowing for any detours
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 04, 2009, 07:00:04 PM
not elitist Ock, just informed :-)
Yeah, tufsu1, but a hippie hitcher might know that milage and CS or a newbie, Florida boy might not. ...Speaking of "informed", you might be surprised at a couple of issues (positive) that are coming out of JTA to a city near you. Real soon, "an Ocklawaha production..." ;)
OCKLAWAHA ;D
Ock.............looking forward to something positive out of JTA, other than new bus's @ $600k a copy that is never more than 12 people full........somehow I don't think that really is a cost effective solution to mass transit! I won't even go there about the shelters.......spend money on new high tech bus's and have no shelters for use,something is wrong with that picture and it is not my fault! Leave it to our so-called experts to come up with this solution that still leaves me scratching my head!
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 04, 2009, 07:56:45 PM
Well tufsu1 according to FDOT Center of Jacksonville to Center of Miami is 359 miles by existing roads....so who is right, them or you??
both of us are right...remember you claimed that Jax to ATL and Jax to MIA would be good HSR routes because they were over 380 miles....I said you were wrong....you've just confirmed it
I would suggest you look at mileage from Miami to Atlanta......that total is in excess of 380 miles and I think your trying to split the camels hairs! Your comment regarding HSR bypassing population centers in Europe just proves that Orland system would require bypassing population centers there also. More than likely due to noise pollution from trains moving at high speed through the air, as in noise related issue's and crossing points that could not be circumvented! I know I would love to have HSR running next to my house that would be a real selling point! So HSR would not work there is what your saying?
you said Jax to Miami and Jax to ATL..those are two separate routes.
Unless of course you're claiming it would be a MIA-ATL route w/ a stop in Jax....if so, then TPA-MIA w/ a stop in ORL is the same thing...
Either way, you have to start somewhere!
CS, high speed trains are quieter than our freight or passenger trains. They are lighter, the rails are welded and I am sure that there are some other measures used to keep they wheels from being so noisy. I've stood near a TGV track in France and they go by with a whine and whoosh in the blink of an eye. The singing noise from the electric pickup is actually audible over the sound of the wheels.
You can't imagine how fast 200kph is until you see one of those things go by.
Dog Walker I will be the first one to say..........got a lot to learn about trains! I do know about speed and subsonic aerodynamics and those French Trains a real engineering feat! I don't say they can not work here in the US of A, I say we need to showcase here just what that type transportation can do for a people moving system. That whoosh you refer to is the air coming back together after the train slides through it.....just the fact you hear after it has gone by indicates superlative aero work! I just don't think Orlando is the region to do something of that nature........waste of resources!
DW.....familiar with super sonic aerodynamics also......bought round trip ticket on the Concorde before they decom'd the ships.........2.45 hrs New York to London......traveling at about 2300 mph......now that was high speed and 1st class accommodations.....no business class on that ship! Outstanding ride and wish Boeing had gotton their platform up and running before Congress pulled the plug! I was ready to work for them back then as a junior draftperson and was just waiting for the phone call...........oh well!