If the Outer Beltway doesn't come, which I'm hoping, will this kill the chances of a new span anytime soon?
This bridge is terribly outdated, unsafe, and blocks Palatka from being able to utilize the full capability of it's port near the Seminole power plant.
Another gripe is the fact that leftover stimulus funds are being used for 9b, which is not a needed roadway. The Shands Bridge should be of immediate concern because if you crash, you're in the water, and if you break down, you screwed up half the bridge.
I can support a new FREE-to-use Shands Bridge, especially WITHOUT the Outer Beltway TOLLway. It would probably serve more St. Johns County interests and residents than 9B. How much would it cost? Would be interesting to compare it to the hundreds of millions being wasted on 9B.
That bridge scares the hell out of me when I cross it, I had a close call on it once which put me up against the outside barrier. I'm surprised there's still no plans for expansion on the horizon, at least none that I know of.
I didn't know there is a natural spring less than 2,000ft north of the bridge either.
Anyways, the only bridge I think is worse is the Mathews Bridge. Not only is it too damn skinny, but way up high.
Back on track, it is also a primary evacuation route during hurricane season, so you'd think it would be higher up on the priority list. I may give FDOT call tomorrow or something, see if I can't get a detail or two.
If I'm not mistaken, it is the only two lane bridge that crosses the St. Johns period now. If not, at least between the Buckman and US17 near I-4 near Sanford.
I believe your correct Sir! Bridge is too narrow and there has been more than one accident on it where people went over the edge...........but 9B is higher priority! Makes me wonder if the Jacksonville City Council has control over the thing?
I've heard that if the Outer Beltway is built, the Shands will be removed, perhaps creating fishing piers on both sides. Good question about what happens if there is no Outer Beltway.
How many lanes does the bridge in Palatka have? Never mind, Google Maps shows 4.
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 14, 2009, 05:45:34 AM
I believe your correct Sir! Bridge is too narrow and there has been more than one accident on it where people went over the edge...........but 9B is higher priority! Makes me wonder if the Jacksonville City Council has control over the thing?
The person that went over the edge didn't have her seat belt on I believe ???
Quote from: stjr on October 13, 2009, 11:58:25 PM
I can support a new FREE-to-use Shands Bridge, especially WITHOUT the Outer Beltway TOLLway. It would probably serve more St. Johns County interests and residents than 9B. How much would it cost? Would be interesting to compare it to the hundreds of millions being wasted on 9B.
The answer is a new bridge would cost at least $200 million....and there is very little chance of it being built without a toll, regardless of whether the Outer Beltway happens.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2009, 08:20:54 AM
Quote from: stjr on October 13, 2009, 11:58:25 PM
I can support a new FREE-to-use Shands Bridge, especially WITHOUT the Outer Beltway TOLLway. It would probably serve more St. Johns County interests and residents than 9B. How much would it cost? Would be interesting to compare it to the hundreds of millions being wasted on 9B.
The answer is a new bridge would cost at least $200 million....and there is very little chance of it being built without a toll, regardless of whether the Outer Beltway happens.
Bull! Tolls are dumb Jacksonville would still be the city to past bye if we still had the tolls around here.
Quote from: reednavy on October 13, 2009, 11:50:58 PM
If the Outer Beltway doesn't come, which I'm hoping, will this kill the chances of a new span anytime soon?
This bridge is terribly outdated, unsafe, and blocks Palatka from being able to utilize the full capability of it's port near the Seminole power plant.
Another gripe is the fact that leftover stimulus funds are being used for 9b, which is not a needed roadway. The Shands Bridge should be of immediate concern because if you crash, you're in the water, and if you break down, you screwed up half the bridge.
The Outer Beltway is coming you can bank on that! http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/userfiles/image/LRTP%20Brochure%20map+list.pdf
The Shands bridge has become more traveled. People that are moving into Clay County south to Green Cove Springs are using it to come across to the east side of the river to get to Jacksonville instead of the stop and go up US 17 through Orange Park.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2009, 08:20:54 AM
Quote from: stjr on October 13, 2009, 11:58:25 PM
I can support a new FREE-to-use Shands Bridge, especially WITHOUT the Outer Beltway TOLLway. It would probably serve more St. Johns County interests and residents than 9B. How much would it cost? Would be interesting to compare it to the hundreds of millions being wasted on 9B.
The answer is a new bridge would cost at least $200 million....and there is very little chance of it being built without a toll, regardless of whether the Outer Beltway happens.
Hmmmm... a new Shands Bridge or 9B? How tough a choice is that? What a messed up system we have for setting priorities.
The theory is you get both....a new Shands Bridge happens as a result of the Outer Beltway....somewhere around 2016....and 9B gets finished about the same time
"Hmmmm... a new Shands Bridge or 9B? How tough a choice is that? What a messed up system we have for setting priorities"
Really not much of choice. One is an estimated $84 million and the other is going to cost WAY more than 200. This is a senseless statement regardless if you are pro or con 9b. There is no choice due to the cost. A new bridge will be a toll bridge. That I am sure you can count on. As well it should be. If you use it, pay for it.
Senseless statement?
One is a desperately needed project, the other is to "relieve traffic", which is total bs.
How's that Cecil Parkway working out? Another senseless waste of money. The Shands Bridge would get the most bang for the buck as it is a necessary crossing, being that another corssing is about 11 miles downriver and the other over 25 miles downriver. It is a critical hurricane evacuation route as well. Even though we do not see hurricanes on a regular basis, if Dora 2 comes along, that bridge, as it is right now, would be an utter failure, creating a massive bottleneck.
Use and improve what is already there before you build something that has no real purpose to begin with. This goes for 9A as well, it needs to be widened like it should've been from the get go.
9B is more like $184 million.....the first phase (intersection w/ US 1 to 9A) is out for bid at no more than $84 million
Bridge we could use.........9B taxpayer waste of money.....developers bonanza period!
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2009, 01:20:41 PM
9B is more like $184 million.....the first phase (intersection w/ US 1 to 9A) is out for bid at no more than $84 million
Quote from: St. Auggie on October 14, 2009, 12:14:54 PM
"Hmmmm... a new Shands Bridge or 9B? How tough a choice is that? What a messed up system we have for setting priorities"
Really not much of choice. One is an estimated $84 million and the other is going to cost WAY more than 200. This is a senseless statement regardless if you are pro or con 9b. There is no choice due to the cost. A new bridge will be a toll bridge. That I am sure you can count on. As well it should be. If you use it, pay for it.
Funny, in 2004, DOT said it would be $206 million. That was 5 years ago.
And, if the 9B TOTAL is really $184 million today, that is the number to compare to a $200 million bridge. We are talking an 8% difference. You can't just pick an arbitrary phase 1 number of less than half and suit yourself. Talk about senseless!
What really counts is the Cost - BENEFIT. If the benefits are high enough, the extra cost can be a bargain.
This simple minded approach is another part of the decision making process problem. Let's spend the Feds free money or lose it, even if we waste it. Let's spend on the cheap way out just to get something done rather than INVEST in doing the right thing. Let's do what the special interests ask for. Let's do the emotional knee-jerk and do what APPEARS best without too much thought. And so on....QuoteFlorida Times Union:
[1-23-2004]
The state Department of Transportation on Thursday kicked off a study that will pick a St. Johns County route for Florida 9B, the $206 million highway that will give Julington Creek residents a faster connection to Interstate 95...
Quote from: St. Auggie on October 14, 2009, 12:14:54 PM
A new bridge will be a toll bridge. That I am sure you can count on. As well it should be. If you use it, pay for it.
So, St. Auggie, you would support paying for 9B with user tolls? I just want to check the consistency of your position.
Now, when they do build a new span, I seriously hope they build something a little nicer than the simple spans as of late.
So, St. Auggie, you would support paying for 9B with user tolls? I just want to check the consistency of your position.
[/quote]
You bet. I grew up in Chicago. You can take local roads in the area, but if you want to GET somewhere, you will pay a toll. You get use to it. Getting to go over a bridge that I dont fear for my life is worth a couple bucks to me. I would think the board would be in favor of this being a toll so that you are not footing the full bill. Not to mention the whole outer (isnt it actually and outer outer beltway?) beltway.
Use and improve what is already there before you build something that has no real purpose to begin with. This goes for 9A as well, it needs to be widened like it should've been from the get go.
[/quote]
The shands bridge will not survive this. They will not be saving it. Maybe part of it as a fishing pier, that bridge is gone. Count on it. It will not be improved, it will be REMOVED. The reason the stament is senless is because the NEW bridge will be closer to 500 million. This part of 9b will be 20% of that. You are talking apples to oranges. That is why is is senseless. 9b is being built w/ "left over" money. There is not $500 million "left over". From what I am told that bridge may cost even more than that. I would get on board w/ improving 9a, but I believe the full scope of 9b does have improvements to 9a included. I may be wrong here. I am not talking about just this phase, I mean overall. Anyone know about that?
I never mentioned the Shands Bridge surviving anything. I'm refering to improving 9A before ever even giving 9B a second look. The Shands Bridge will not cost half a billion dollars to build either, that is over twice of what was even estimated for a tolled replacement as part of the Outer Beltway. The bridge is outdated, and used by more cars than what the design intended. Hell, a part of the bridge was knocked out years ago and was replaced with cheap steel grating.
A new Shands Bridge does not need to be tolled, as it serves a multiple uses and what is currently there isn't. It wouldn't be fair to them as this is the only crossing between the Buckman and Palatka. 9B however, deserves to be tolled, it serves no purpose other than trying to please people in northern St. Johns County by getting them to their jobs quicker.
Why not toll both 9A and 9B? Bridge when replaced will become a "Toll" bridge......government will take every opportunity to raise revenue of some kind for the coffers!
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 15, 2009, 07:26:22 AM
Why not toll both 9A and 9B? Bridge when replaced will become a "Toll" bridge......government will take every opportunity to raise revenue of some kind for the coffers!
Tolls are DUMB they add to the Pollution Problem we have now. Put a 1 cent sales tax to pay for these needed roads. :P
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 15, 2009, 07:36:39 AM
Tolls are DUMB they add to the Pollution Problem we have now. Put a 1 cent sales tax to pay for these needed roads. :P
Not true at all...in fact, most tolling is now via transponder (SunPass, EZPass, etc.) so there is very little slowing down..
In fact, one could argue that modern-day tolling helps reduce pollution in that it adds to the cost of driving, thereby yielding fewer trips.
Quote from: St. Auggie on October 14, 2009, 12:14:54 PM
"Hmmmm... a new Shands Bridge or 9B? How tough a choice is that? What a messed up system we have for setting priorities"
Really not much of choice. One is an estimated $84 million and the other is going to cost WAY more than 200. This is a senseless statement regardless if you are pro or con 9b. There is no choice due to the cost. A new bridge will be a toll bridge. That I am sure you can count on. As well it should be. If you use it, pay for it.
Tolls are Dumb if you live in Duval we all should pay for all roads etc etc etc. If you use it, pay for it, is so Juvenile I say raise a 1-2 cent sales tax on everything we buy that is taxable and we could have more new and better roads.
What?
9B should be tolled, it serves no real purpose to people in Duval County.
A new Shands Bridge should not be a toll bridge period.
Quote
Tolls are Dumb if you live in Duval we all should pay for all roads etc etc etc. If you use it, pay for it, is so Juvenile I say raise a 1-2 cent sales tax on everything we buy that is taxable and we could have more new and better roads.
They already did that. It's called the Better Jacksonville Plan. Besides, the county as a whole just voted down millage rate increases. I'm not so sure people would turn right around and vote for a tax *increase* after just rejecting one.
One other problem with sales taxes for infratructure....it can only be used for capital costs, not operations/maintenance.
So how do you fund the maintainenance on all the new/widened roads built with the sales tax?
^ I'll bet the greater public have no clue about that. Good point.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 15, 2009, 02:35:19 PM
One other problem with sales taxes for infratructure....it can only be used for capital costs, not operations/maintenance.
So how do you fund the maintainenance on all the new/widened roads built with the sales tax?
Property taxes? And don't forget all the attendant schools, utility and drainage infrastructure, additional public safety costs, etc. That's how urban sprawl costs the taxpayers. Ironically, some of the most antitax people I have met are the developers that benefit from this system.
so basically you are saying that we should fund operations of new roads through increased property tax revenues?
Based on that, I guess development caused by new/widened roads is a good thing.
We need an upgraded Bridge.The bridge is the tail wagging the dog.
The benefits of the proposed beltway are over promoted."Traffic" alleviation being the weakest claim but it doesn't matter- the northern Brannon Chaffee leg was erroneously but sucessfully promoted as "alleviation" for Blanding.Proponents have quietly made one step after another,including public work shops et al carefully monitored by an army of Planners & Consultants.The legally binding public opportunity to demand"NO BUILD" quietly passed long ago.
Mayor John Delaney had a hand in the beltway...key D.O.T. Brannon Chaffee leg permit application before the water Management District and Corps of Enginneers was facing scrutiny- the DOT application premise was the B/C leg was stand alone with no plans for the controversial extension....and Delaney's letter of support broke the log jam.
I could go on for many pages.How many of you know of the thirty year history??
The result is the beltway will acommodate Orlando style sprawl in the name of 'growth management' and 'jobs'.
During the past couple of years "water wars" we have been furious over evil central Florida's over growth yet unaware of the unfolding yet unseen impacts in our own back yard....and that goes for most of the environmental community and RiverKeeper advocates please sit down...your organization was one of the worse in this matter during key early periods...as in blank stares.
Key 'drivers' behind the beltway in Clay county have been specific land owner entity.
We could name the beltway in honor of Reinhold/Jack Myers or the Chamber of Commerce.
Over St.Johns county way Randy Ringhaver once sent a letter out opposing the beltway-but the route was 'shifted' to skirt his property-that is why the projected roadway makes some twists and curves east of the bridge.
Note Denver's 'beltway' system has a long standing missing section on the northwest due to strident public concerns and opposition.
When officials are faced with opposition here their comment is to the effect;it's twenty years away.
the great 'conservative' First Coast ....where Miami begins!
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 15, 2009, 03:21:59 PM
so basically you are saying that we should fund operations of new roads through increased property tax revenues?
Based on that, I guess development caused by new/widened roads is a good thing.
Tufsu, you said sales taxes pay to build roads, not maintain them. In Florida, that leaves property taxes as the main source for maintenance funds, correct? The problem is that added property taxes don't appear to pay enough for BOTH the maintenance of roads and the services demanded by the new residents paying them. As such, each new residence created under this model puts us further behind the "8" ball. That's why "development caused by new/widened roads" is a BAD thing.
stjr........at one time, here in Jacksonville,we had such a thing called "Concurrency" where the developer was required to pay a portion of the funds needed to enhance an area with water,sewer,power and roads. Some how under the guise of encourageing business this requirement was dropped. I still say that Daniel Davis had a hoof in that taking place but my point is it was removed. The good thing about it was that any developer had to shoulder some of the cost to put a development in..........of course it was not allways used were the development was at and sometimes used in other parts of Jacksonville but that was the way it was set up. Makes me wonder just what the North East Builders Association had to do with that?
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 15, 2009, 04:41:18 PM
stjr........at one time, here in Jacksonville,we had such a thing called "Concurrency" where the developer was required to pay a portion of the funds needed to enhance an area with water,sewer,power and roads. Some how under the guise of encourageing business this requirement was dropped. I still say that Daniel Davis had a hoof in that taking place but my point is it was removed. The good thing about it was that any developer had to shoulder some of the cost to put a development in..........of course it was not allways used were the development was at and sometimes used in other parts of Jacksonville but that was the way it was set up. Makes me wonder just what the North East Builders Association had to do with that?
CS, in my opinion, concurrency was just a token or down payment (lip service? a bone?) on the real cost of growth. Proponents of better education funding have never seen payments toward schools in the name of concurrency. How about public safety? Lot's of "hidden costs" of growth developers and others don't want to talk about. They wouldn't want anyone to know the real costs of urban sprawl.
The fact that the true costs of growth have not been profiled effectively to the public nor be part of state is amazing.We can lay this at the feet of the 'environmental community" and I get to say that due to particular recent past qualifications.Instead we all fall in line with the mantra of "projections","inevitable growth" and an irrational idealism in defense of never ending 'growth'.
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 15, 2009, 04:41:18 PM
stjr........at one time, here in Jacksonville,we had such a thing called "Concurrency" where the developer was required to pay a portion of the funds needed to enhance an area with water,sewer,power and roads. Some how under the guise of encourageing business this requirement was dropped. I still say that Daniel Davis had a hoof in that taking place but my point is it was removed. The good thing about it was that any developer had to shoulder some of the cost to put a development in..........of course it was not allways used were the development was at and sometimes used in other parts of Jacksonville but that was the way it was set up. Makes me wonder just what the North East Builders Association had to do with that?
As I've stated on this site many times, concurrency still exists...nothing has changed.
All that happens in the state Legislature was the passage of SB 360, which takes away the state mandate for concurrency...local concurrency requirements, including those in Duval County, still exist!
SB 360 is cause for the demise of Crist popularity among many in the environmental community...even though some of them got tangled up in the forces to pass during the session.This is the untold story- why some enviros stepped back.
If SB 360 could have been done all over again as if by magic it would have-quickly.Can't put a happy face on it.
Any move to reduce any state/DCA oversight is suspect.
A primary feature of "Growth Management" promotions whether state or local can be to relax ('sedate'?) the public.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 15, 2009, 08:09:04 AM
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 15, 2009, 07:36:39 AM
Tolls are DUMB they add to the Pollution Problem we have now. Put a 1 cent sales tax to pay for these needed roads. :P
Not true at all...in fact, most tolling is now via transponder (SunPass, EZPass, etc.) so there is very little slowing down..
In fact, one could argue that modern-day tolling helps reduce pollution in that it adds to the cost of driving, thereby yielding fewer trips.
Not everybody will have the (Sunpass, Ezpass, Etc Etc) so you still have to have the booth attendent take money from those without the pass. Go on the Florida Turnpike and see for yourself? Tolls are Dumb in 2009 and beyond!
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 15, 2009, 08:09:04 AM
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 15, 2009, 07:36:39 AM
Tolls are DUMB they add to the Pollution Problem we have now. Put a 1 cent sales tax to pay for these needed roads. :P
Not true at all...in fact, most tolling is now via transponder (SunPass, EZPass, etc.) so there is very little slowing down..
In fact, one could argue that modern-day tolling helps reduce pollution in that it adds to the cost of driving, thereby yielding fewer trips.
Is that your saying "Tolls are dumb"?
If you're no for tolls, then how do you expect some roads to be paid for. How do you think Orlando would be w/o toll roads? Matter of fact, what about all the other cities and states that have them?
If you're smart, you get a Sunpass or whatever, so you don't have to deal with the attendants. The newer toll plazas are reducing the number of attendant booths, as more people know that having the prepaid device is easier and allows for a smoother commute.
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 15, 2009, 09:32:14 PM
Not everybody will have the (Sunpass, Ezpass, Etc Etc) so you still have to have the booth attendent take money from those without the pass. Go on the Florida Turnpike and see for yourself? Tolls are Dumb in 2009 and beyond!
Or you could go to the Lee Roy Selmon Crosstown Expressway...try the reversible lanes....just make sure you have a SunPass first, because they only use open road tolling on those lanes!
Quote from: reednavy on October 15, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
Is that your saying "Tolls are dumb"?
If you're no for tolls, then how do you expect some roads to be paid for. How do you think Orlando would be w/o toll roads? Matter of fact, what about all the other cities and states that have them?
If you're smart, you get a Sunpass or whatever, so you don't have to deal with the attendants. The newer toll plazas are reducing the number of attendant booths, as more people know that having the prepaid device is easier and allows for a smoother commute.
What is so HARD do you have BLINDERS ON ::) we need a 1-2 cent SALES TAX IN DUVAL TO PAY FOR THE ROADS THAT COULD HAVE TOLLS ON THEM :P. Its that easy and if that road goes into Clay or St Johns have a 1-2 Cent sales tax there. Sure we would have to Vote on a Sales Tax and if that lost. Then the Old Dumb Toll Roads will be back, by this time gas will be $5.00 to $7.00 dollars a gallon in which not many people will be driving.
Quote from: reednavy on October 15, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
Is that your saying "Tolls are dumb"?
If you're no for tolls, then how do you expect some roads to be paid for. How do you think Orlando would be w/o toll roads? Matter of fact, what about all the other cities and states that have them?
If you're smart, you get a Sunpass or whatever, so you don't have to deal with the attendants. The newer toll plazas are reducing the number of attendant booths, as more people know that having the prepaid device is easier and allows for a smoother commute.
Even Smarter Don't use Your Wonderful and Great Toll Roads! :P
I'd rather use a toll road that gets me somewhere quicker, rather than sitting in the mess that is either I-4, I-75, or I-95. Each city has it's own issue, and the toll roads are easier to use.
The one exception is the 408 (East-West Expy) in Orange County. That is and always has been FUBAR since the boom on the east side of Orange County.
JaxBorn1962, do you know British Shoe Company? You guys sound an awful lot alike.
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 15, 2009, 10:59:42 PM
What is so HARD do you have BLINDERS ON ::) we need a 1-2 cent SALES TAX IN DUVAL TO PAY FOR THE ROADS THAT COULD HAVE TOLLS ON THEM :P
What seems to be difficult is someone answering the question about how these "free" roads will be maintained....remember, a sales tax (which by the way the state won't allow locals to have an extra $0.02) can only be used for capital costs.
It is revealing but no surprise to see reference to the vast "Beltway" identified as "Shands Bridge".
Perhaps per design by the promoters.Key public hearings typically focused on 'crossing'.
At the height of the John Delaney love fest with the enviros John stated that we can't build our way out of congestion.
Soon after, his hand in beltway matters proved telling.
Certainly there are few examples of viable long term "alleviation".
New roadways always come with the assumption that we will vest additional development.The concept of a new roadway without companion development would send chills.
Erroneous promotion of Brannon/Chaffee as an 'alternate' and "alleviation" to Blandiing was spectacular....and a winner! (Even outrageous statements by former MPO Calvin Burey that 30,000 cars a day would use Brannon "as soon as it opens" were never recanted.(30,000 ADT-average daily traffic-was indeed a formal,'official' number.....that number to be realized after a period of time,as a result of new development)The FTU/Mike Clarke stuggled with this internally,just a little,but nothing out to the public.So the erroneous image remained.
Key land owner/beltway 'drivers' even attempted to route the beltway through the Ravines- state conservation lands.A contentious "Sector Plan" for Lake Asbury focused on citizens adamant about not having a Ravines route-unlike the previous Brannon/Chaffee sector plan the Asbury group was more dynamic and the pre determined wishes of the beltway supportes did not easily unfold.Turns out this Lake Asbury Sector Plan (#1) was in fact NEVER AUTHORIZED BY STATE DCA- a point revealed to all ,including a sharp Florida Wildlife Federation attorney,late in the process.( I still feel this aspect is worthy of formal investigation).
Plan # 2 process and the beltway Ravines alignment remain-we had to fight it back at the DCA level.
Later Reinhold attempted a land swap in attempt to retain the Ravines route, which would have brought on a Florida Constitutional amendment challenge relating to surplus of state conservation lands.
The fact that the Trust For Public Lands held a key option on 1900 acres of former Gulfstream land along Brannon/Chaffee ,most of which became Oakleaf smack dab in the middle of regional water recharge region is perhaps too provocative for most.
With the exception of the Florida Wildlife Federation (what a bummer of a name for a group so involved with people/resource matters-I get to say this as a former FWF Vice Chair) virtually none of the area conservation community is versed .Yes even the RiverKeeper.In fact,our furious gaze has recently glared at evil central Florid'a overgrowth during recent water wars while most are unaware of the yet unseen but vested 'sprawl' so quietly placed.
Only by completing the project will the truth be revealed. We can spare others areas this fate.
I'm against the Outer Beltway, but tootally for a new Shands Bridge, which is why I started this topic.
Quote from: stjr on October 15, 2009, 11:25:42 PM
JaxBorn1962, do you know British Shoe Company? You guys sound an awful lot alike.
No but Thanks I guess?
Quote from: reednavy on October 16, 2009, 10:24:32 AM
I'm against the Outer Beltway, but tootally for a new Shands Bridge, which is why I started this topic.
And on the Shands Bridge if people WOULD SLOW DOWN this bridge could last a lot longer. You will get your new bridge when state road 23 comes thru Clay! Just Slow Down or have the FDOT place several (ticket camera's) out on the bridge to give all those speeders a $300.00 ticket for speeding!
Quote from: stjr on October 15, 2009, 11:25:42 PM
JaxBorn1962, do you know British Shoe Company? You guys sound an awful lot alike.
No But that's because we are SMARTER then you! :P
New Bridge would be nice but don't hold your breath!
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 23, 2009, 08:24:25 AM
No But that's because we are SMARTER then you! :P
Well, it is "smarter than you".
I'm not sayin', just sayin'.
Quote from: reednavy on October 23, 2009, 07:53:25 PM
Quote from: JaxBorn1962 on October 23, 2009, 08:24:25 AM
No But that's because we are SMARTER then you! :P
Well, it is "smarter than you".
I'm not sayin', just sayin'.
Thanks Teacher can I go out and Play ???
For those of deeper thought/concern see my minutes old post on the 9a stream/page 4 & 5-including note to stevedare
northmiami I concur! There has always been much more to this overall picture than what has come out in the media and I have always been of the mind that a - someone is going to make money on the sale of the property! b - someone is going to make money developing that part of the world! c - the taxpayers will get screwed again paying for a road to be put in that developers can build off of and the taxpayers will have the added expense of maintaining it! Shands Bridge needs to be upgraded or replaced but 9A & 9B Extensions are just for a select few to profit by!
(http://www.stjohnsshipbuilding.com/img_contacts.jpg)
(http://www.stjohnsshipbuilding.com/header4.jpg)
SHANDS BRIDGE + Palatka's St. Johns Ship Building = JOBS $$
www.stjohnsshipbuilding.com/news.html
OCKLAWAHA
Ock.....not really a bad idea! Drive some pilings down to limit lateral movement, hook them up and away we go!
The Shands is so low, many of the orders for the St. Johns Ship Building Yard, have moved elsewhere. THEY ONCE EVEN OFFERED TO PAY FOR THE CHANGES! Nope!@$&@*
We once saw our waterways as inland highways, especially in the South. River traffic is still a tradition all along the Gulf Coast States. It is much lighter on the East Coast, but even Florida's Gulf coast suffers from lack of infrastructure on the waterways. The St. Johns/Ocklawaha are different, they have a history of boat traffic. Palatka and Sanford as well as Green Cove Springs have developed ports. But we've hung a clothesline across the river that nobody can get past since 1954.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock............it's pretty obvious that was not taken into consideration with the Shands design........but it sure was cheap right? Seems that Jacksonville is not alone with ......no vision, no plan and no cents!
Jumping to conclusions again CS?
The existing Shands Bridge has a portion that used to rise up and allow taller ships to pass through when needed.....although I'm not sure that's been in operation anytime recently....Ock, surely you remember that?
The only part of the current Shands Bridge that isn't concrete is a section about 10-12ft long that is steel grating from what I've been told was an accident years ago. Whether it was boat of vehicle is a moot point to the fact the current bridge has never had a section that acted like the Main Street Bridge to allow for taller boats to pass through.
Unless you're refering to the original Shands Bridge that is now a pier.
The steel grating that Reednavy is referring to is about a 20' section on the flat of the bridge east of the span. If it is somehow removable there is no chanel beneath it to allow larger boats/ships passage.
Check it out on Google Streetview.
maybe it was the old bridge then....guess the new briodge has that small hump
Quote from: Jason on October 28, 2009, 10:15:55 AM
The steel grating that Reednavy is referring to is about a 20' section on the flat of the bridge east of the span. If it is somehow removable there is no chanel beneath it to allow larger boats/ships passage.
Check it out on Google Streetview.
Guys, I pretty much remember the bridge from opening day on, that panel was there when they opened it as far as I know. Seems like it was supposed to either be some sort of 1950's expansion joint or perhaps DOD had it put in due to the nearby Lee Field, naval base as some sort of option.
I don't think it was ever really intended to open, and it's no where near the channel then or now. OCKLAWAHA
Gentlemen............the current Shands Bridge has a steel grating panel but it is not powered......there is no power running to it, there are no motors and there is no control station as in a regular drawbridge. What is there appears to be just a plain standard grate! At one time they may have planned to install a drawbridge but there is nothing there at this time. I have not been on the water underneath that section but have been over it many times on two wheels........that is part of my western loop! No motor brackets,hinge points are anything, just plain concrete buttment!
That section is so quite a ways east of the main channel.
Yes reednavy it is! Infact it is so far outside of whatever channel is there it is not funny! I am not sure just what the channel depth is there but can't be more than 40' if that much! But that grated section looks more a permanent repair than anything else!
More like 9' feet if your looking for a consistant bottom depth, the river channel is only maintained at somewhere around 11' feet. There are some deep spots, for example black creek has several miles of hard rock bottom and deep 80'+ holes, thought to be ancient limestone cavern cave sites.
OCKLAWAHA
Could such a grate, based on your descriptions, be lifted by crane in order to deliver bridge maintenance materials off the paved section of the bridge to a waiting barge? Or, in reverse, to carry away dredge material from a barge on waiting dump trucks? Just a random idea. ;)
Quote from: stjr on October 28, 2009, 11:54:15 PM
Could such a grate, based on your descriptions, be lifted by crane in order to deliver bridge maintenance materials off the paved section of the bridge to a waiting barge? Or, in reverse, to carry away dredge material from a barge on waiting dump trucks? Just a random idea. ;)
Then send the Bill to Charlie C. the next senator for the gop.
I am not sure just what its purpose would be! Dredging spoils are usually removed by pumping through a series of large floating piping to an area outside of a maintained channel. Corp of Engineers usually maintain navigable waterway and the USCG maintains the aids to navigation.....buoys,range markers and channel markers! Infact, come to think about it .......I don't remember seeing any standard buoys marking that channel. It might be a state maintained system............we pay some kind of tax for Inland navigation but I think that is for boat ramps and public docks and think that is a state tax not a Federal.
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 28, 2009, 07:51:26 PM
Gentlemen............the current Shands Bridge has a steel grating panel but it is not powered......there is no power running to it, there are no motors and there is no control station as in a regular drawbridge. What is there appears to be just a plain standard grate! At one time they may have planned to install a drawbridge but there is nothing there at this time. I have not been on the water underneath that section but have been over it many times on two wheels........that is part of my western loop! No motor brackets,hinge points are anything, just plain concrete buttment!
If I am not mistaken..the current Shands Bridge was completed in the early 60s ...just before my time... (My father was one of the people who helped build it) I know there is a grate in the middle that was designed (in an emergency) to be removed,,but it is not a drawbridge..
As to its safety...you won't get much of an arguement from me OTHER THAN...you should have seen the bridge IT REPLACED..... A wooden monster that crossed the river and ended in Orangedale on Rt 16..( Ock ....correct me if I am wrong here, but since I was born and raised in the area, I think I have my facts straight )
No question the bridge should be replaced with a much taller one on the outside chance a ship might need to get through there. I would love nothing more, than to see the Former Navy Base reinstated and put back in to use...though I doubt it will happen.... seems the mentality in these parts is, if it makes sense to do, then for god's sake DO NOT DO IT !!!
Timkin...........I agree! That bridge is narrow and has had one fatal accident that I know of! Not anytime in this decade I would guess.............gotta find the money for it and the traffic down it is not heavy enough to warrent it ....yet!
I never knew of the fatal accident but there have been lots of them in my time, which involved that bridge.. No argument she needs to be replaced.. Although I wish a part of either end was spared for fishing.. I certainly think the bridge is structurally sound.
I don't remember the exact date, but was last year or the year before that! The old wooden structure could have been saved just for that but since it ain't there anymore.........next best thing would be save this one just for that purpose, if and when a new bridge goes in! Besides, it would save money by not dismembering current bridge and funding could be applied to replacing what is there now! That concrete structure would last a long time with no vehicle traffic on her!
The City of Green Cove Springs actually did overhaul completely..500 feet of the old Shands Pier.. the rest of it is crumbling away.... as a kid I remember going shrimping off of that bridge and thinking ...geez how could two cars pass each other on this without hitting each other?
I presume they would either greatly enhance the current span or demo most of it. If one of the goals is to create a passageway for ships , then the center part of the span would have to go .
Waters are not deep enough for something that has a keel or deep draft. NFTPO had a route planned through there for a "Water Taxi" to Jacksonville, but last meeting I attended did not have enough interest to make it happen! Other issues such as being able to navigate in low visibility and bad weather had a bearing!
Just curious...how deep is the water in that channel??
16' on an average and I believe that is at high tide.............fluctuates with the tides! That boat/ship repair yard in the Green Cove Springs Industrial park has to dredge upon occasion, but they are further up than the bridge and it get shallower further towards Palatka you go!
You gotta remember that is not a navigable waterway! The Bridge itself prohibites large vessels and the Corp does not maintain any channel through there!
I never knew that. I just wondered how it was that the worlds largest Mothball fleet (at one time) resided at the Piers of the Lee Field Navy Base... I presume the channel going towards Jacksonville is much deeper.. But today....if the base were to return there (and I know that is not likely) Would some of the current spans in Jax and the Buckman prohibit Ship traffic?
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa313/buoyjumper/Laurel.jpg)
Green Cove Springs, Clay County Port Authority
(http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/guide/indust3.jpg)
Palatka Port Comedy!
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/2865223503_18892d922d.jpg)
Headed to Sanford
CS, it is indeed a navigable waterway. Palatka and Sanford have very active river ports and the one in Palatka has a shipyard that has lost contracts because of that low bridge. The Army Corps of Engineers as well as the US Coast Guard are often as far up stream as Sanford (or Enterprise where fuel oil was delivered). They maintain the channel depth and width as well as take care of the channel markers and beacons.
Current Active Cargo Ports include: Jacksonville, Green Cove Springs, Palatka, FPL, Sanford, Enterprise. There are several other small commercial fishing, or crabbing ports or harbors.
I live on 6 mile creek and often see the barges and even occasional small ships moving up river. Historically the only natural obstructions were a bar at Mayport, and another at Palatka. The former was tamed by the jetty's and the latter is a dredge chore.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TGH0rFLMrsI/AAAAAAAAC5U/Q8DQr2_sJjE/s800/shands_bridge.jpg)
As for the bridge, replaced in 1963 I believe, it's light years better then the old one which was a cross between a bridge and "The Manta" roller coaster. I was a white knuckle ride for sure. The Western portion still stands and was used as a pier for years, but I think they have blocked it off now. The East portion stood until fairly recently when St. Johns County and the Water Mgmt District replaced it with a new state-of-the-art-pier.
The Navy Base was designed for 500 ships, mostly DD and DE classes. One needs to keep in mind our Pacific Fleet alone consisted of over 1,200 fighting ships at the end of WWII not to mention fleets in the other oceans of the world. At it's peak Green Cove berthed some 400 ships with another 50 at anchor in pods in the river. The Navy supposedly feared it being bottled up by an enemy and moved it to a more open location.
OCKLAWAHA
It is such a shame that the decision to close the Navy Base there came to pass... Green Cove has struggled ever since....
I obviously do not remember crossing the old bridge because the new was in place when I came into this world..but my Mother described it much as Ock did. She says when hurricanes were in the area the water was literally up over the bridge.. I cannot imagine trying to cross that in a hurricane.