Create another JTB. It will need overpasses now, sorta like 9A. However it will be $ well spent. US1 does not need to turn into Blanding Blvd. We ne a "B" line from Jax. to St. Aug. (With no traffic lights)
First off, it is PHILIPS.
2nd, it has a JTB-like neighbor called I-95.
I am sorry added an extra L. Can you forgive me reednavy? I forgive your hostility.
let your 970th post be positive. You can do it!
Instead of converting it into another expressway, it should become an urban boulevard that complements commuter rail and Amtrak on the FEC corridor. The majority of the property along Philips should be rezoned to allow for dense transit friendly and walkable development from the county line all the way to DT. A multi-use path running parallel to the tracks the entire length, would also be a nice element. This would really turn Philips into a gateway instead of a blight magnet.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 13, 2009, 11:32:22 PM
Instead of converting it into another expressway, it should become an urban boulevard that complements commuter rail and Amtrak on the FEC corridor. The majority of the property along Philips should be rezoned to allow for dense transit friendly and walkable development from the county line all the way to DT. A multi-use path running parallel to the tracks the entire length, would also be a nice element. This would really turn Philips into a gateway instead of a blight magnet.
Ding!
Bayard could be turned into an excellent model for such development. Hopefully before more ugly sprawl spills over from Nocatee and Bartram Park.
BSC, I'm not being hostile, it's jsut that you pull some stupid, just plain stupid ideas out of thin air and expect people to go along with them when it is clear that Philips Highway could not be transformed into what you think.
God help us all if you were to get into public office one day.
Quote from: reednavy on October 13, 2009, 11:37:47 PM
BSC, I'm not being hostile, it's jsut that you pull some stupid, just plain stupid ideas out of thin air and expect people to go along with them when it is clear that Philips Highway could not be transformed into what you think.
It's just, not jsut.
Quote from: David on October 13, 2009, 11:45:30 PM
Quote from: reednavy on October 13, 2009, 11:37:47 PM
BSC, I'm not being hostile, it's jsut that you pull some stupid, just plain stupid ideas out of thin air and expect people to go along with them when it is clear that Philips Highway could not be transformed into what you think.
It's just, not jsut.
Damn, oh well.
I'm just a stickler for Philips Highway being spelled correctly.
Why don't we build an interstate parallel to every non-interstate in Northeast Florida: Beach, Atlantic, San Jose, University, Blanding, Roosevelt, Timuquana/103rd, San Juan, Normandy, Lem Turner, Dunn, Heckscher, A1A - Heck, pave over the entire county and be done with it. That'll solve all our traffic problems, rid us of those pesty snakes and trees, and stimulate our economy with all that "free" federal money. And, it will sell more of both "liberal and conservative" gas. Right, British Shoe? ::)
The Duval County road planners are not a good road models in general. I do think we should try to make the best of a bad situation in Duval, and St. Johns County does need to do it better.
Philips could be a show piece if we could get commuter stops up and down the length of it. Go to work downtown stop at Baymeadows on the way home 50 foot walk to Chicago Pizza, shop at the Avenues then settle down in Naccotee or St. Augustine for the evening. The next day San Marco or any of the new businesses who are trying to take advantage of New line.
JeffreyS, I like your line of thinking. It sets up perfectly for a linear transit corridor.
Quote from: British Shoe Company on October 14, 2009, 07:41:03 AM
I do think we should try to make the best of a bad situation in Duval, and St. Johns County does need to do it better.
I agree. The answer is rail, not more of what got us all (St. Johns included) in this mess in the first place.
QuoteThis would really turn Philips into a gateway instead of a blight magnet.
Lake - Exactly where is the blight on Philips in Jax? Remember, its a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng road in Jax.
Primarily between DT and JTB or Baymeadows. However, the rest of the corridor (all the way to St. Augustine) is nothing to brag about and would benefit from a longterm makeover as well.
Lake - From I-95 to Shad road looks pretty decent, with a movie theatre and some simple office buildings. South of I-95 its the makings of suburbia with light/light/light and car dealerships, then the interchange with 9A and office parks.
The only real blight I see is the Gator lodge and some mobile home parks between Emerson and University, but for the most part, the Wal-Mart and the BJs have all done great to clean up the area. The George Moore Chevy area is getting a cleanup in new development and this will take place up and down the corridor.
There is far less blight here than there was in the 80s.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 14, 2009, 09:14:58 AM
Lake - From I-95 to Shad road looks pretty decent, with a movie theatre and some simple office buildings. South of I-95 its the makings of suburbia with light/light/light and car dealerships, then the interchange with 9A and office parks.
The only real blight I see is the Gator lodge and some mobile home parks between Emerson and University, but for the most part, the Wal-Mart and the BJs have all done great to clean up the area. The George Moore Chevy area is getting a cleanup in new development and this will take place up and down the corridor.
There is far less blight here than there was in the 80s.
Once blighted areas seem to have to fight that stigma for a long time here in Jax....
If getting a Walmart is the definition of cleaning a place up, then we're really in trouble. With the assets of that corridor, I think we can do a lot better than Walmarts, a few strip malls and non pedestrian/transit friendly infill development.
QuoteJeffreyS, I like your line of thinking. It sets up perfectly for a linear transit corridor.
A light rail or multiple streetcars would work perfectly running the length of Phillips... plenty of room in the median for double tracks and passenger stations...
Blight might be strong but remember the people on River Oaks equate Philips with slums of Mogadishu. We could certainly add much to this corridor and help transit and trafic along the way.
BT I bet your right.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 14, 2009, 09:22:49 AM
If getting a Walmart is the definition of cleaning a place up, then we're really in trouble. With the assets of that corridor, I think we can do a lot better than Walmarts, a few strip malls and non pedestrian/transit friendly infill development.
We can, but we've got to educate quite a few people.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 14, 2009, 09:32:43 AM
Blight might be strong but remember the people on River Oaks equate Philips with slums of Mogadishu. We could certainly add much to this corridor and help transit and trafic along the way.
BT I bet your right.
For all their arguing all they got was 5 acres of torn up pavement and some dirt mounds. I hope they're happy. Philips has decent traffic flow, but I agree that the area, not the road, could use significant improvement. Commuter Rail and infill and TODS at Baymeadows, JTB, San Marco, Avenues, and Old St Augustine would be an amazing start to a new direction of growth for Jax.
Lake - The Wal-Mart and BJs are better than what was once there. Now I know you have millions sitting in your pocket and you were next in line to buy and develop these spaces. Did you know they had MILLIONS of removal costs of bad chemicals in both locations? I am sure Cat left a few more nasty suprises than the car yard did for Wal-Mart.
So we replaced the OLD GM Warehouse with a great mixed-use of space. What's not to like? There is development going on up and down US1, and people are removing the old junk structures with new ones. Prices of land is also rising. Soon the trailer parks will be priced out of the land and will sellout as well.
When there is enough density of mixed use, there will be discussions of the light rail, and I think its a great place for light rail down the median to the Skyway system. The key will be getting St. Johns County to buy-in down to St. Augustine Road.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 14, 2009, 09:59:58 AM
Lake - The Wal-Mart and BJs are better than what was once there. Now I know you have millions sitting in your pocket and you were next in line to buy and develop these spaces. Did you know they had MILLIONS of removal costs of bad chemicals in both locations? I am sure Cat left a few more nasty suprises than the car yard did for Wal-Mart.
I never said it wasn't an improvement over what was there before. I just said we can have more and better by taking advantage of the corridor's assets. Why settle? Let's take it to the next level.
QuoteSo we replaced the OLD GM Warehouse with a great mixed-use of space. What's not to like? There is development going on up and down US1, and people are removing the old junk structures with new ones. Prices of land is also rising. Soon the trailer parks will be priced out of the land and will sellout as well.
Sounds great. Now add a commuter rail stop next to the old GM warehouse, fill in the parking lot with future development and you have a product that's 100% better than what exists today.
QuoteWhen there is enough density of mixed use, there will be discussions of the light rail, and I think its a great place for light rail down the median to the Skyway system. The key will be getting St. Johns County to buy-in down to St. Augustine Road.
At some point, you can't just "wait" on density. You're going to have to make a commitment and invest in the system that will spur additional density. Imo, we're at that point. There's already enough density for commuter rail on the FEC corridor, plus there are redevelopment opportunities that make the corridor perfect for potential for dense infill development and supportive land uses.
Quotecommuter rail on the FEC corridor
Right there at the GM Warehouse is Bowden Yard, that is a major bottleneck. That won't be easy to add a rail station right there. FEC could bury it in their right of way issues.
It would be far easier to embrace Light Rail down the middle of US1.
QuoteLet's take it to the next level.
You have to start somewhere, and what we have now is MUCH better than what was there before. We have a ways to go, but if I could embrace light rail, this would be the corridor that would have the best shot. Plenty of land down near I-95 for parking to the rail, right into downtown.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 14, 2009, 10:16:45 AM
Quotecommuter rail on the FEC corridor
Right there at the GM Warehouse is Bowden Yard, that is a major bottleneck. That won't be easy to add a rail station right there. FEC could bury it in their right of way issues.
Already checked it out physically a while back. The GM Warehouse is south of Baymeadows. The Bowden Yard is north. There's room on the west side of the ROW and under the bridge itself.
QuoteIt would be far easier to embrace Light Rail down the middle of US1.
It would be easier to work with FEC. Especially since FEC is working with Amtrak to upgrade the track capacity for passenger rail. LRT down Philips would be signficantly more expensive and with the existing track in place, why construct a parallel facility? If Jax wants LRT, take it to areas away from existing rail corridors.
QuoteQuoteLet's take it to the next level.
You have to start somewhere, and what we have now is MUCH better than what was there before. We have a ways to go, but if I could embrace light rail, this would be the corridor that would have the best shot. Plenty of land down near I-95 for parking to the rail, right into downtown.
No doubt. We've started. Now lets take it one step further.
Here is a link to Google maps. The intersection is Tasman and 1st Street in Santa Clara. When I lived there it was similar to P.H.... mobile home parks, old strip malls, and alot of undeveloped land. Silicon valley before it was Silicon valley.
My point is... the road. Two lanes in each direction... with a large weed filled median. They replace the median with light rail and high tech businesses filled in rapidly. Hotels and restaurants filled the gaps. Condos pooped up all over the place and density increased where there was once sprawl.
Check it out... Zoom in and take a look at P.H. possible future...
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.409283,-121.94476&z=19&t=h&hl=en
Has the FEC embraced a station next to their yard? Even for Amtrak? everywhere I have seen Tri-rail, it is away from a yard as a bottleneck.
Would the FEC have to add a 3rd rail up to/before University to bypass the yard traffic?
Its a tough call...obviously having a tram system running the length of the median to St Augustine would be both convenient and aesthetically pleasing. But what about the expense relative to utilizing the existing FEC line?
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 14, 2009, 10:26:51 AM
Has the FEC embraced a station next to their yard? Even for Amtrak? everywhere I have seen Tri-rail, it is away from a yard as a bottleneck.
Would the FEC have to add a 3rd rail up to/before University to bypass the yard traffic?
Yes, additional track would be needed to create capacity. Luckily, some of that may be put in place by Amtrak. Anyway, regarding the Bowden issue, the station in question would be the one at JTB.
Quote from: jaxtrader on October 14, 2009, 10:29:08 AM
Its a tough call...obviously having a tram system running the length of the median to St Augustine would be both convenient and aesthetically pleasing. But what about the expense relative to utilizing the existing FEC line?
LRT would really make sense between DT and the Avenues if the FEC corridor wasn't already there. However, under no circumstances would it be the best idea to take LRT from DT to St. Augustine.
I love the brainstorming. Now I know how the Government feels. What is best? I am not sure. We have rail lines parallel to Philips already, and I think they could be used. I do not want anymore red lights on Philips Hwy.
Well, get over it, more redlights are a reality for that road.
A light rail system down P.h. would not likely have more traffic lights but would most certainly lessen the traffic on that road...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 14, 2009, 03:40:42 PM
A light rail system down P.h. would not likely have more traffic lights but would most certainly lessen the traffic on that road...
I was refering to the anticipated sprawl spilling over from Nocatee and and nearby Bartram Park. With 9B coming, it is almost a certainty. You'll have at least one light added with the interchange at 9B.
LRT down Philips would most likely be elevated over major intersections like the lines in Dallas and Charlotte.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 14, 2009, 04:18:45 PM
LRT down Philips would most likely be elevated over major intersections like the lines in Dallas and Charlotte.
Does the track elevate or the road? Those trains don't seem to climb hills good with out cogs or cables.
There isn't enough space in the median. They'd have to take more right away from businesses. Especially south of Sunbeam.
By they way there is only one "l" in Philips Hwy. It couldn't afford two. However many of the signs have the two L spelling these days.
QuoteDoes the track elevate or the road?
In Dallas and Charlotte, the track elevates. However, a significant portion of these lines run on railroad ROW adjacent to highways like Philips. Anyway, the design typically depends on the environment of a particular situation. In Jax, if rail went down Philips, it would be hard to image not putting in overpasses at least at University/Bowden, JTB and Baymeadows. On the surface, it would be much easier to just work with FEC and their ROW.
At-grade in Phoenix
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8447-stevevance4-flickr.jpg)
The San Diego Sprinter going over a road
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.747.feature.jpg)
Going over a busy road in Charlotte
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3001-flickr-carolinatim-woodland-station.jpg)
An at-grade median crossing in Charlotte
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3006-flickr-704slacker-2.jpg)
Median running in Charlotte
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2998-flickr-samuelspence.jpg)
Lake - great pics, what possible max speed would these run down US1, if the rail did not work, do you think?
^The top speeds are restricted to 55mph in Charlotte.
Quote from: reednavy on October 13, 2009, 11:48:09 PM
Quote from: David on October 13, 2009, 11:45:30 PM
Quote from: reednavy on October 13, 2009, 11:37:47 PM
BSC, I'm not being hostile, it's jsut that you pull some stupid, just plain stupid ideas out of thin air and expect people to go along with them when it is clear that Philips Highway could not be transformed into what you think.
It's just, not jsut.
Damn, oh well.
I'm just a stickler for Philips Highway being spelled correctly.
I can understand. I will never forget it's Philips!
I have mine too. The Gator Bowl will always be the Gator Bowl to me, and when others call it other names it bugs me.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 14, 2009, 05:15:01 PM.........................At-grade in Phoenix
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8447-stevevance4-flickr.jpg)........................
Even if it was surface it would mess up a lot of turn storage lanes down the median and widen the over all right of way. Current median is only about 12 feet. Does a surface light rail stop for traffic lights? I know trains don't.
Might be interesting to make a left turn across traffic and train.
Rising over the I-95 over pass at US-1 and I-95 would be interesting. The current I-95 over pass opening underneath is too narrow for both train and traffic.
QuoteLRT down Philips would most likely be elevated over major intersections like the lines in Dallas and Charlotte.
Why would this be so? VTA(?) San Jose Light rail runs at street level through 95% of the system. Intersections seem to be timed to give right of way to trains. Overpasses and underpasses would add huge amounts of cost to what could be relatively inexpensive straight line corridor.
Those intersections are already a mess, especially the one at Philips, University and Bowden. Adding another transit element in there that would remove the duel turn lanes on Philips would make it significantly worse. I agree, the overpasses would add to the cost, but even at-grade it would be significantly more expensive to build LRT or BRT down the median of Philips, compared to commuter rail down the FEC.
I do not disagree that those intersections are a mess. Our antiquated traffic light system in this city is definately not conducive to smooth traffic flow. This intersection in Santa Clara is pretty busy... yet the trains turn both left and right through the intersection as to the cars from both directions. This is pretty common on this system.
Zoom in and check it out...
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.409283,-121.94476&z=19&t=h&hl=en
Without knowing the traffic count in Santa Clara its hard to say if such a move at University would be worth it or not. What really complicates the University situation is Bowden. Those intersections are really right on top of each other.
This one may be more accurate to compare with P.H. Same LRT line but crossing Montague expressway. This is a major commuter artery through the valley. Four lanes in each direction and 55 mph speed limits.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.409283,-121.94476&z=19&t=h&hl=en
Would the trains be rolling through University/Bowden at 55 during rush hour? Probably not, and the gates would be down well in advance. It would force people out of the cars, because the light cycles are not long enough now as it is. I can see lots of P'oed drivers as a result of this.
Look at the google map mtrain... zoom into the intersection. There are no gates. The LRT trains use the same signals as traffic. They cross the intersection at grade and with traffic.
Bridge, I don't need to look at a map to know that not using gates at that intersection is a death sentence for an unsuspecting driver. In the photos that Lake showed, there were gates at the intersections on both sides, to keep people from driving around the tracks. We need those here as well.
I guess the folks in California are just better drivers than here then... because virtually NONE of the crossings through San Jose and Santa Clara have gates. Zoom in, go to street level view and check it out... follow the tracks through the entire line. I'm not making this up dude...
At least The Jacksonville Police Department has cleaned up the most the prior issues that made Philips Hwy. famous!
For those who miss the old Philips Hwy. There is still (8th, and Main)
http://www.youtube.com/v/HaLrQdy6Jj8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
South Fresno, CA
FYI guys, California does indeed have state-of-the-art crossing protection on lines and roadways that meet certain standards. They also have perhaps the largest collection of ancient "Wig-Wag" signals remaining on earth. These early crossing signals for automobiles are interesting, a standard crossing sign (called a crossbuck), a rather large bell mounted on top of the post, and a single arm which reaches over the auto traffic lane with the classic round R X R disc sign. When a train approaches the bell starts which is very loud, and the R X R sign starts swinging back and forth like a hypnotist's gold watch.
If Corridor rail can morph into full commuter rail on the Florida East Coast, then we'd be better off looking at Southside Blvd for an LRT line. Such a route would use the new Matthews bridge or tunnel and probably climb up and over the Arlington Interchanges at: Southside and Arlington Expressway/Southside and Atlantic.
Dallas uses some overpasses on roads such as Arlington Expressway. In Medellin, we didn't use anything but grade crossings from blows our freight rail line into places such as the LG appliance plant, or Renault "EL CARRO COLOMBIANO" etc... But on the other side of the fence we ran a double track, overhead electric heavy rail line, that frankly blows the socks off of anything in the USA...being a sort of cross hybrid between BART in SFO, and ACELA in DCA. Our electric Metro line doesn't have a single grade crossing for roads or highways, it does have a few at grade crossings of the narrow gauge national railroad system. Dallas LRT currently tops out at 65 mph, and runs in a transit mall for LRT traffic in downtown Dallas. No reason this system couldn't top out at 90+ mph, smooth as silk.
Someone asked about bridges, LRT can handle regular grades without cables, or cogs, as steep as 12%, though most locations set a limit at 8%. Electric cars such and as Dallas LRT or the ancient ones in New Orleans, have remarkable acceleration, in Oregon slang, the MAX LRT SYSTEM, is sometimes refereed to as the "G Force". Light Rail trains (streetcars and trolley buses) have much quicker acceleration then a diesel bus, and frankly about even with some little red sports car imports. The same applies to braking power, especially in foul weather, coming down the grade electric rail has far more control and stopping power then our new buses. Think about this the next rainy day you happen to ride over the Matthews or Hart aboard JTA!
Most railroad companies, diesel, electric, or urban LRT, set a ruling grade that sets a limit for the entire lines gradient. For those non transportation Jaxson's reading this the grades are measured by the amount of accent or descent per 100' feet of travel. A one foot rise would equal a 1% grade, a 3 foot rise in 100' feet equates to a 3% grade, etc...
The only other trick to use in making for faster LRT or Commuter Rail is to be certain the crossing protection is timed for the speed limits. If the gates are set to be down 15 seconds ahead of that moment when a freight train rolls past at 45 mph, and we introduce a 90 mph passenger train, then we have a problem. It's just a matter of circuits and some simple math, and your autos and trains will be happy.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock... In santa Clara... the light rail shares the intersections with regular traffic... using ONLY stop and go lights. They cross intersections and make turns on the same streets as traffic. Most of the time the train is running in the median strip out of the way of traffic... but... at intersections... they cross the same as cars.
Just click this link and zoom in all the way to street level and you will see what I mean...
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=37.409283,-121.94476&z=19&t=h&hl=en
Crossing at-grade with traffic in Phoenix
(http://transit-safety.volpe.dot.gov/safety/Rail/Newsletters/Winter2009/html/images/4-on%20street.png)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8469-stevevance3-flickr.jpg)
Crossing a downtown intersection in Houston
(http://triptotheouthouse.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/houstonmetro1.jpg)
In this Houston intersection, left turns are not allowed
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4037-houstonmetrorail-qwenturnerjuarez.jpg)
Those are cool pic's. I would love something like that on Phililps Hwy.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 15, 2009, 10:40:20 PM
Crossing at-grade with traffic in Phoenix
(http://transit-safety.volpe.dot.gov/safety/Rail/Newsletters/Winter2009/html/images/4-on%20street.png)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8469-stevevance3-flickr.jpg)
Crossing a downtown intersection in Houston
(http://triptotheouthouse.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/houstonmetro1.jpg)
In this Houston intersection, left turns are not allowed
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4037-houstonmetrorail-qwenturnerjuarez.jpg)
I saw a car with lights like that. He had 24's (rims) I wonder if he purchased them, or took them from Houston?
In Houston, some of those lights, the ones without the streaks, are in the streets. Where we, and Texas, normally place reflective road markers, Houston is trying out a new system of LED markers for transit routes, also some colored ones for crossings.
OCKLAWAHA