QuoteOur views: Riding the rails
Grant request shows payoff of passenger trains through Brevard
October 8, 2009
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20091008/OPINION/91007020/1004/capitolnews (http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20091008/OPINION/91007020/1004/capitolnews)
Restarting passenger train service down Florida’s East Coast â€" including stops in Brevard County â€" has always made good economic sense.
It made sense in 2001, when the first effort to revive the 350-mile Jacksonville-to-Miami route was proposed but failed.
It makes even more sense now to create badly needed jobs, boost economic development and promote greener transportation.
The potential payoff is now more evident with an application from the Florida Department of Transportation for $268 million in federal stimulus money for the project that would pay for upgrading tracks, building stations, improving railroad crossings and purchasing land.
The plan includes stations in Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne, which would boost their economies with passengers arriving and departing in or near those cities’ historic and revitalized downtown areas.
More than 100 cities, counties and public and private organizations wisely endorse the new plan, with Space Coast municipalities and the county among the proponents.
That kind of united front is rare and shows the recognition of the benefits the trains could bring.
And why Washington should approve the funds from the $8 billion in stimulus money that’s set aside for rail projects.
The FDOT grant request provides these economic impact estimates:
# The project would directly create about 1,050 full-time jobs, with more than 880 jobs coming from construction to build the stations and improve the rail lines.
# It would produce an even larger economic benefit as the money ripples through the nine-county region, indirectly creating more than 6,300 permanent jobs and $259 million in annual earnings by 2021.
# The state would gain money for its depleted coffers, with the service generating more than $300 million in sales tax during its first 10 years of operation.
# About 176,000 passengers would ride the rails the first year, with passengers boarding in Brevard between noon and 1 p.m. and arriving in Miami three hours later.
# Ticket prices haven’t been determined, but would be similar to fares for other Florida Amtrak routes. It costs $60 to travel round trip from Orlando to Jacksonville and $72 round trip from Orlando to Miami.
Passenger service along the Florida East Coast Railway was ended 40 years ago as the nation’s car-obsessed culture grew.
The renewed service would allow local cities to prepare for inevitably higher gas prices that would again limit driving and cause people to seek other ways to travel.
For instance, Amtrak saw an 11 percent increase in riders last year when gas hit $4 a gallon.
Furthermore, the service would fit into the trend toward greener means of public transportation.
That includes commuter rail service in metro areas, such as the proposed Sun Rail in Orlando and proposed high-speed rail links between Orlando and Tampa.
If approved, the East Coast passenger rail project would get rolling in October 2012.
We say it’s time this train leaves the station.
QuoteThe plan includes stations in Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne, which would boost their economies with passengers arriving and departing in or near those cities’ historic and revitalized downtown areas.
Interesting. With less than 550,000 residents, Brevard County will be getting three stations. Yet with over 850,000, Duval County will continue to have one located in the boondocks.
Well, Miami-Dade is only getting one station as well. They are moving the station from Hialeah to the MIC. Jacksonville's move from Clifford Ln to JRTC comes in the second phase.
Miami-Dade does not need another. Tri-Rail is already on the same corridor and connects to Metrorail, which gets you to DT and the South Dade busway. If we had some form of commuter rail in place to connect DT with the Southside and Northern St. Johns County getting a satellite station would not really matter.
Quote from: fsujax on October 13, 2009, 08:59:33 AMJacksonville's move from Clifford Ln to JRTC comes in the second phase.
Do you have a link to this information that you can post online? I'd like to learn more about the second phase.
the appliocation is online
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/
On page 131 and 132 of the Application it lists the Historical Stations on this line. You guessed it no Jacksonville Terminal (Prime Osborn) even though all the rest shown do not amount to a joke compared to our Granddaddy of a station.
Given the location of the Jacksonville terminal and the proposed St Augustine terminal, I'd go to St Augustine. It is the same distance for me either way.
Overstreet............same for me since I live on the southside off Bay Meadows. It is about the same for me, but slightly further out to St Augustine. I would rather go south to board a train than go north into the middle of nowhere.....but thats just me!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2645/3733607468_40f3ff445e.jpg)
Quote from: Overstreet on October 13, 2009, 05:06:55 PM
Given the location of the Jacksonville terminal and the proposed St Augustine terminal, I'd go to St Augustine. It is the same distance for me either way.
(http://www.visitjacksonville.com/includes/media/images/jacksonville-downing-187.jpg)
NOTE: Restoration of Jacksonville Terminal, would involve dropping the current plan to add a modern station to the Southeast Corner of the original headhouse, and condensing the JTA plan, WITHOUT the Prime Osbourne. This should be a CITIZEN DEMAND!I'd wager that IF we restore the original 1919 station, with pedestrian subway, new Park/Lee viaduct and a 9 -10 track yard with 5+ platforms on the South side, you'll wander into that grand old entry on Bay and Lee. Maybe still stuck on going to St. Augustine to catch the train, once Jacksonville Terminals spirit possesses your soul, you'll be in its grips forever.
For those who have never walked through Jacksonville Terminal as a working train station, perhaps it's the ghosts of the past. Maybe the stations 3Rd highest unsupported ceiling in the world grabs you, maybe like me, you hear the echos of millions of voices, perhaps walking under a grand corridor of stained glass, but something beyond understanding will pull you here. Jacksonville has trashed it's heritage, South Jacksonville, Yukon, Marietta, Bayard, Durbin, Greenland, White House, Springfield, Oceanway, railroad stations all, gone to the wrecking ball. Only Callahan, and Yulee survive at trackside. St. Nicholas and Yukon have been moved away from their tracks but survive. But in the constellation of railroad stations in the American South, this is our crown jewel. No mere chapel to the gods of the rails, but somewhere just short of the Vatican, and 4 paces ahead of a Cathedral or Basilica.
Also missing from the DOT FEC plan is:
South Jacksonville: At Atlantic (we need to push this hard, an unmanned flagstop station no local tickets honored)
Bunnell/Palm Coast: In downtown Bunnell
Ormond Beach: Right off Granada
New Smyrna Beach: FEC's shops, and one time home to their famous restaurant, under the overpass.
Also the cross over to the CSX at West Palm Beach is more bad planning from FDOT, but the new Miami BILLION DOLLAR multimodal station at MIA, is on the CSX. FEC was in Miami in 1896, the Seaboard didn't reach it until 20+ years later. The FEC is DOWNTOWN from West Palm South, and the CSX is on the fringe. If we stabilize Tri-Rail, they plan to shift trains to the FEC from Miami North, retaining service on the CSX as well. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on October 13, 2009, 09:20:09 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 13, 2009, 08:59:33 AMJacksonville's move from Clifford Ln to JRTC comes in the second phase.
Do you have a link to this information that you can post online? I'd like to learn more about the second phase.
Lake at the bottom of page six of the states Amtrak-FEC application it says phase two will move the staion into the proposed JRTC.
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Amtrak-FEC-application.pdf (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Amtrak-FEC-application.pdf)
Page 7 gives more of a description of all the conections at JRTC.
Ock, if you add all those stations, won't that extend the travel time? I think they are trying to sell a competitive travel time between Jax and Miami.
And, JefferyS - congratulations on wading through that application!
I went through the application this afternoon. It does not say that phase II will fund the JRTC. So it appears we'll be in the same boat that we are in today. That is, looking for funds to build it from other pots.
QuoteOck, if you add all those stations, won't that extend the travel time? I think they are trying to sell a competitive travel time between Jax and Miami.
A future phase calls for corridor trains to run from Jax-Cocoa and Cocoa-Miami. The majority of people using a corridor service won't be those taking the whole trip from Jax to Miami. It will most likely be shorter trips. Spots like Palm Coast, the Avenues, etc. should definitely be added as corridor trains come online to make the system more accessible to the region's population. For the few going directly to Miami, there will still be intercity trains.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 13, 2009, 09:26:54 PM
Page 7 gives more of a description of all the connections at JRTC.
Do you see anything on there besides, Skyway, Bus, and BRT? Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 13, 2009, 09:45:26 PM
Ock, if you add all those stations, won't that extend the travel time? I think they are trying to sell a competitive travel time between Jax and Miami.
And, JefferyS - congratulations on wading through that application!
Not at all Charles, having waded through myself, (yes Kudos Jeffery), they are looking at the "5-Train Plan", for Florida. Let's just hope this isn't the only line they plan to implement it on. So this boils down to:
Silver Meteor
Silver Star
Both splits at Jacksonville, and both long-distance flagship trains would stop only at the major stations along the line. But that leaves a void for local services.
3 daily Jacksonville - Miami locals...
So the economy stays alive, the stations are restricted. For example Ormond Beach, tickets valid only from Jacksonville or points north, and Ft. Pierce and points south. That is why I said NO LOCAL ticketing such as JAX-South JAX.. This is the traditional way to handle this type of traffic, and it becomes a great convenience to passengers who may have just stepped off the Sunset Limited/Gulf Wind route, or some future Atlanta train, and would really like to get off near the snowbird cottage in Bunnell. All ticketing is in advance, and folks with computers could book their own from New Smyrna Beach to West Palm, for example. It must be enough of a distance to make it a paying stop. Palatka started this way with Amtrak, after myself and an army of loud mouths bombarded the HQ with WTF letters. They agreed to the limited flag stop, and POOF, it became one of the stronger small stations in the state, boarding 12,082 passengers last year alone. Today it's a scheduled stop for all trains, and full ticketing including local is available. OCKLAWAHA
The application says the JRTC is being developed by "others". Wasn't that a Nichol Kidman movie? The application does include a resolution from the JTA page 234 on the pdf that "redevelops historic downtowns built around train stations, including the historic Jacksonville Terminal and the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center (JRTC)".
I believe page 7 did mention commuter rail.
Developed by others is another word for "we aren't paying for it." Imo, its in Jax's best interest to get Amtrak back DT, even if the city has to fund it themselves.
Agreed and I believe the city will have to fund it. I wish it had mentioned possible Street car also but no such luck.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 13, 2009, 10:17:10 PM
Agreed and I believe the city will have to fund it. I wish it had mentioned possible Street car also but no such luck.
That's what I saw too, NOTHING but the SOS from our Transportation AUTHORITY! God help us. OCKLAWAHA
I think FDOT has applied for JRTC funding through the TIGER grant program (another stimulus fund)...we'll have to see if they get any $
I think it was JTA that applied for the TIGER grant for the JRTC ...
correct...my mistake....the grant applications were endorsed by the NFTPO and FDOT
So if we have applied for the Amtrak upgrades and the JRTC facilities the next step seems to be to prioritize Streetcar, commuter rail and BRT projects. The I am a fan of the streetcars but I believe the commuter rail has moved further down the path studies, projections and such. I believe we should use the Jacksonville Terminal as our station whether the convention center is there or moves.
Commuter rail is further down the path but it would be easier to implement a streetcar system. You would not have to negotiate with railroad companies, it could be built on existing public ROW and from an entity other than JTA, if desired.
The JTA would be our best bet at streetcar using the BJP money for transit. (If the money is still around.) I guess if someone else implemented streetcar the JTA would have the money for commuter rail. Who else would we be talking about?
JTA also endoresed the FEC jax to miami project. For some reason it didn't make into the application. I know the Board passed a resolution of support at the August 2009 meeting. Don't fret too much of no mention of streetcar in the application. Remember FDOT put the application together not JTA, the City or the NEFRC.
The JTA's resolution is on the pdf's page 234. So it is in there kudos to JTA.
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Amtrak-FEC-application.pdf (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Amtrak-FEC-application.pdf)
Quote from: fsujax on October 14, 2009, 08:36:28 AM
JTA also endoresed the FEC jax to miami project. For some reason it didn't make into the application. I know the Board passed a resolution of support at the August 2009 meeting. Don't fret too much of no mention of streetcar in the application. Remember FDOT put the application together not JTA, the City or the NEFRC.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 14, 2009, 08:39:39 AM
The JTA's resolution is on the pdf's page 234. So it is in there kudos to JTA.
Well, well, well, who would have guessed Johnny WAS up to something after all...?? Daddy has probably explained "How the cow eats the cabbage!" Because when the man pile was unstacked, guess who I found at the bottom? QuoteDecember 5, 2000, Jacksonville Business Journal: *(Just two years from the first $80 Million dollar + deal with the State of Florida and Amtrak... The one Bush squashed)
St. Augustine-based Florida East Coast Industries (NYSE: FLA) made some changes to its leadership team.
Gate Petroleum founder Herb Peyton was elected a director at the company's Dec. 1 board meeting. He also is a director of The St. Joe Co. (NYSE: JOE) and is a trustee of the duPont Trust,
"Herb has first-hand experience at developing those strategies for a company with a diversified portfolio like FECI," said Robert Anestis, chairman and CEO of FECI. "He will bring a wealthy of knowledge and experience to FECI as well as seasoned business judgment."
Peyton's position on The St. Joe board forges a closer relationship with Florida East Coast. The two companies have enjoyed a long history together, but separated two months ago when St. Joe spun off its majority interest the company.
Florida East Coast also named Robert MacSwain vice chairman of the company. MacSwain had been executive vice president of special projects for Florida East Coast and president of Flagler Development, Florida East Coast's commercial real estate development subsidiary.
John Carey, formerly chief operating officer of Flagler, was named president of the division.
Florida East Coast owns four subsidiaries including Flagler, Florida East Coast Railway Co., logistics firm International Transit and Orlando-based carrier company EPIK Communications.
I realize he long since retired from the Board, but this speaks volumes, libraries and God knows what about the wheeling dealing child mayor of Jacksonville. Think maybe his lack of motivation for rail could have anything to do with the family business now? Knowing the official line of the industry is "Amtrak is in the way of profitable freight trains." The new battle cry is more like, "Amtrak a huge operations liability, is a great way to milk Uncle Sam for dollars to add capacity." Add to this a family fortune based in automobile travel, gasoline, and oil, as well as concrete highways. I think we are now seeing the light, and just like I suspected, it IS the headlight of an oncoming train! (This is the part where MJ readers, rail activists, new urbanest, and general travelers from around the nation, do our best deer in the headlight imitations.)OCKLAWAHA
I believe the FEC has been purchased since Herb's time and is now operated by Rail America. is this correct?
yes...so much for the conspiracy theory
Correct Jeffery, it was bought out in 2007, with a DOT AMTRAK deal dating to 2002, worth $80 Million dollars. Then the deal was remade this year for another chunk of change.
I never used or said the words conspiracy heir TUSFU1, just that the lessons learned, the friendships made and the hand me downs from Daddy, have no doubt shaped and solidified Johnny's actions, or lack thereof. So I'm not saying, or even suggesting some back room payola, or hankie pankey, going on. It would be however, the opinion maker, for any family invested as heavily in the industry as the Peyton's. Don't forget TUFSU1, that it was only days after the inaugural of "The Empire State Express," on the old New York Central System, that Monsieur Cornelius Vanderbilt, reviewed the investment, service, and the profit and loss statements for the new flagship train . It was then recorded that his voice rolled out of the office like the voice of Thor himself, as he thundered the now infamous phrase, "THE PUBLIC BE DAMNED!" Perhaps without even realizing what had just occurred, the die had been cast for the future of America's rail passenger service.
If there were a conspiracy, or if we sought to discover a conspiracy, it wouldn't be in Herb or Johnny's office, rather it would go straight to the White House. The seeds of the final distruction of the passenger rail industry, fit so neatly into a government package called Amtrak, as to be undeniable. But the fact that Herb, and his hand-me-down golden boy, little Johnny Midas Peyton, had shaped their opinions under such leadership as Richard Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush, Clinton and Bush again makes their decisions rather transparent.
Consider the source, consider the lessons learned, the execution of the American Passenger Trains took nearly 65 years. As the drumheads rolled, AMTRAK was left starving and holding the basket. You can be certain of one thing, without a major management change, we'll get milk from a mynah bird before we see a rail revolution in the City of Jacksonville. The infinite space between the ears is a trackless wasteland, and "We the People," have our work cut out for us.
OCKLAWAHA
Very poetic post Ock............too bad it's only too true! I agree that we have our work cut for us, Jax might be a lost cause until Johnny is gone and we get some professionals in the spots that matter. All of the overpaid AIMO's are no help and most are incompetent so we are just going to have bide our time!
Just got an email:
QuoteAmtrak train with 2 engine, and 20 cars from jax to cape. 2morrow leaving approx 0615am.
My response: To Cape Canaveral? What for?
QuoteA special aaprco 32nd annual convention train 2009. this train will stop at st. aug. @ approx 0750a to pick some special passenger. i don't know where.
HELLS BELLS, ANYBODY THAT CAN DO PHOTOS, GET TO THE TRACKS, THIS IS THE ASSOCIATION OF PRIVATE RAIL CARS OWNERS, SPECIAL TRAIN. They'll be a string of varnish on the end worthy of a freakin KING! We gotta find out if it's coming back up the FEC or CSX? COOL.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteMonday, November 2nd
Special train departs Washington early morning and travels the former Richmond, Fredericksburg & Potomac and the CSX "A" line (former Atlantic Coast Line) arriving Jacksonville FL late evening. Parked at Jacksonville FL overnight.
Tuesday, November 3rd
This morning we will depart Jacksonville and travel south on the Florida East Coast Railway, crossing the Saint Johns River bridge and traveling along the scenic east coast of north Florida to City Point where the train will park until Wednesday morning. A special lunch and extensive tour of the Kennedy Space Center will take place over the next 4 hours.
Wednesday, November 4th
This morning we will proceed north on the Florida East Coast Railway to St. Augustine, Florida, the oldest city in the United States. Our passengers will disembark and have 5 hours for a tour and lunch in St. Augustine. Following the St. Augustine tour, we will depart mid-afternoon and travel north on the Florida East Coast Railway to Jacksonville. Then we continue north on CSX, arriving Savannah at 8:30 pm. Cars are parked at Amtrak's Savannah station.
The convention will be held in beautiful historic Savannah, Georgia with the Desoto Hilton, 15 East Liberty St., Savannah, GA 31401 as our convention headquarters.
http://www.aaprco.com/convention/2009/09index.html
So 11/4:
Following the St. Augustine tour, we will depart mid-afternoon and travel north on the Florida East Coast Railway to Jacksonville.
So they leave St. Aug around 2 or 3, head north. Maybe best place to check this out is along US1?
It's really too bad a "special" train such as this can not be opened to the public for viewing on how the other half live and travel. As Ock has pointed out before, private train cars where the Lear Jets of the train set and right fully so................much more room than a Lear and a real bathroom or at least a holding tank! Not near as quick as a Lear, usually tripped planned at Flite Level 31 @ 360 kts.........good for about 1800 nm at that altitude and speed! Train would be lots slower but alot more plush for sure!
I have some pictures of the CSX business cars, insides as well, let me see if I can pull them out soon.