Tampa Streetcar Project to Break Ground
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/images/tampa/streetcar.jpg)
While the potential of federal stimulus dollars for high speed rail has taken over Florida's news headlines, a smaller stimulus project is about to get underway in Downtown Tampa.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-oct-tampa-streetcar-project-to-break-ground
Tampa. You think you are the progressive city in Florida?? lol Wait until we build our billion dollar bus rapid transit here in Jacksonville. What? You spent a fraction of that and have hotels, condos, bars, tourists attractions and office buildings locating along the streetcar route.
While the extension is a short one, if applied to Jax, it would be like extending the Skyway down Riverside Avenue to hit Fidelity or to Atlantic Blvd to serve Hendricks Av and San Marco Square.
QuoteFederal stimulus funds to add buses, vans and streetcar rails in Tampa
By Michael Van Sickler, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Tuesday, April 7, 2009
TAMPA â€" Federal stimulus money is on its way to boost Hillsborough County's transit system.
On Monday, Hillsborough Area Regional Transit's governing board approved spending more than $15.1 million in federal stimulus money, including about $7.8 million on 29 buses and two paratransit vans, which are used to shuttle elderly or disabled passengers too frail to travel by bus. Another $1.5 million will be spent to operate the fleet of 36 paratransit vans.
About $1 million was approved to extend downtown's streetcar system about a third of a mile from the Tampa Convention Center to the outer business and office district on Whiting Street. Overall, the extension will cost about $5.5 million; construction is to begin this summer and be completed by mid 2010, according to HART spokesman Ed Crawford.
The remainder of the money, about $3.8 million, will be spent on improvements to operations, equipment and security.
"This helps tremendously," Crawford said. "We were behind on bus purchases, so this gets us up to date."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article990149.ece
Quote from: alta on October 09, 2009, 06:56:28 AM
Tampa. You think you are the progressive city in Florida?? lol Wait until we build our billion dollar bus rapid transit here in Jacksonville. What? You spent a fraction of that and have hotels, condos, bars, tourists attractions and office buildings locating along the streetcar route.
believe me...most folks in Tampa don't think $52 million for a 3 mile rail line that takes 20 minutes end-to-end was such bargain!
oh and btw...JTA just got approval for $8 million in stimulus funds...for things like new buses, shelters, and a park & ride.
Yeah, Tampa isn't the most progressive place. Its funny that people would see a $52 million transit investment as a boondoggle when its helped spur over a billion dollars in development along that 3 mile corridor. The Channel District was a real dump before all those mixed use projects and warehouse conversions came online. One of these days I'm going to have to pull out my photo archives and post some images of what this area looked like a decade ago.
3 miles would be huge for the core neighborhoods. That is the exact distance from San Marco Square, down San Marco blvd, over the Main Street Bridge, through DT, onto Riverside Ave, to Forest Street. For 50 mil, very worth it. That is also not the most efficient way to cover that distance. San Marco, Oklahoma, Southbank, DT, and Riverside would all benefit from that.
Keep in mind that the $52 million was in 2000....and of course was originally sold at $32 million....the extra cost primarily came from the very nice trolley barn that was built in Ybor City.
btw...the proposed Jax. long range transportation plan includes 7.5 miles of streetcar lines at a cost of $105 million (in 2009 dollars)...for more info., go to
http://www.northfloridatpo.com/envision2035/participate/
I live down here and really the only people who use the streetcar are those who live in Channelside or Ybor City. Now, I don't want it to seem like I am not happy with the expansion, because I am. However, if they really want this thing to work, they need to get it extended across the river to UT and then down into the Hyde Park and Soho area. If they did this, the ridership would go up big time. The other problem the streetcar has is the hours of operations. Closing time in Hillsborough County is 3 AM. They really need to have the streetcar running till about 4, because then people leaving the bars would use it and stay off the roads. As of now it is not open that late.
I agree DemocraticNole. The original streetcar line should have hit these areas. I don't know why we continue to avoid the dense residential pockets of communities with our rail planning decisions. However, its not too late to hit them. That seldom used CSX line through downtown is ripe for passenger rail use and could form the backbone of Tampa's proposed LRT system. It would also connect all of the places you just mentioned with DT and Ybor.
So where are we with a couple of simple extensions to the Skyway, to create the same type of demand and flow? NOWHERE. The "long range plan," had San Marco, maybe the Stadium, and certainly the Blue Cross extensions on it, but JTA withdrew all but Blue Cross. We have a loaded Congressional delegation and a president that will fund these things, and we pulled the plug, SMART, REALLY SMART JACKSONVILLE!
As for our streetcars? "Long range plan," should read, "long range dream." Have we even funded the second phase of the study? Are we serious, or is this just a ploy to throw off the dogs at MJ? Meanwhile we read that JTA is moving right on with the stupid BRT shit. Today I can ride a bus from downtown to Gateway Plaza, and with a BILLION DOLLARS worth of BRT completed, I can ride a bus from downtown to Gateway. Does anyone else see a problem with this thinking? Does this even qualify as thinking?
Remember folks it was our own Scott Clem that said "LRT is not a good fit for Jacksonville," and Mike Miller who said, "The people hate rail, they want Bus Rapid Transit." "Klatu Nebula, calling Jacksonville... is there any intelligent life on your planet?"
OCKLAWAHA
Have any of the JTA planners ever been in a city with LRT? Not just the tourist lines, but a working system? Idiots!
Dog Walker I whole heartedly agree............Idiots! The hockey puck that said "We don't want rail" obviously is a share holder in Gates Concrete! No one asked me and I say rail for downtown Jacksonville. Any person with half of a brain can see the benefits but thats just me..........current Administration appears to have no brains at all!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 10, 2009, 10:39:01 AM
So where are we with a couple of simple extensions to the Skyway, to create the same type of demand and flow? NOWHERE. The "long range plan," had San Marco, maybe the Stadium, and certainly the Blue Cross extensions on it, but JTA withdrew all but Blue Cross. We have a loaded Congressional delegation and a president that will fund these things, and we pulled the plug, SMART, REALLY SMART JACKSONVILLE!
As for our streetcars? "Long range plan," should read, "long range dream." Have we even funded the second phase of the study? Are we serious, or is this just a ploy to throw off the dogs at MJ? Meanwhile we read that JTA is moving right on with the stupid BRT shit. Today I can ride a bus from downtown to Gateway Plaza, and with a BILLION DOLLARS worth of BRT completed, I can ride a bus from downtown to Gateway. Does anyone else see a problem with this thinking? Does this even qualify as thinking?
Remember folks it was our own Scott Clem that said "LRT is not a good fit for Jacksonville," and Mike Miller who said, "The people hate rail, they want Bus Rapid Transit." "Klatu Nebula, calling Jacksonville... is there any intelligent life on your planet?"
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I have said all along, our community is A-D-D. It can not focus on more than one mass transit project at a time.
The community is skeptical of mass transit and is not going to give leaders a groundswell of support until they see something that actually makes an impact on transit in this City. The $ky-high-way, our somewhat disfunctional bus system, and now, potentially BRT, will just continue to give mass transit a black eye and make the prospects for rail systems in Jax bleaker.
We need to dump the $ky-high-way and BRT and focus on doing one priority right. Previous discussions on MJ have indicated a priority for commuter rail and streetcars. Let's get one of these rail projects going as a start and move on after we have a success under our belts.
(http://db.cornwall.gov.uk/ltp/ltp20062011/images/356.jpg)
It doesn't even have to be big, to be RIGHT!Quote from: stjr on October 10, 2009, 03:44:48 PM
Ock, I have said all along, our community is A-D-D. It can not focus on more than one mass transit project at a time.
The community is skeptical of mass transit and is not going to give leaders a groundswell of support until they see something that actually makes an impact on transit in this City. The $ky-high-way, our somewhat disfunctional bus system, and now, potentially BRT, will just continue to give mass transit a black eye and make the prospects for rail systems in Jax bleaker.
We need to dump the $ky-high-way and BRT and focus on doing one priority right. Previous discussions on MJ have indicated a priority for commuter rail and streetcars. Let's get one of these rail projects going as a start and move on after we have a success under our belts.
(http://www.lastreetcar.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/URS_Comparison.jpg)
Any Questions?(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/lv-mon-trn-stn-over-str-bus-2004_r-anderson_seaweekly.jpg)
What happens in Vegas, needs to... COME HERE! It's really a damn shame that a city/metro of nearly a million and a half people, can't even get a bus or a freaking horizontal elevator to function correctly. JTA suffers from many ills most of which can be summed up in the old "too many chiefs and not enough Indians," argument.
One of the main reasons to add the remaining four miles to the Skyway, is to set the ground work that the officials at AMTRAK said attracts them toward downtown! It also serves along with streetcar and possible electric bus, as the distributors of downtown traffic in lieu of the current diesel bus fleet. Like I said, you Stephendare, myself and ?? perhaps Mr. Blaylock, should go spend a couple of hours to make some hard observations. Why isn't Rosa Parks on 8Th Street? Why isn't Kings Avenue Station at Atlantic, and the current station at the Hilton? etc..
Streetcars, this is an easy fix, simply follow Dallas and Tampa, fund and sub out the entire operation to a private nonprofit that will do the job 100% better and for less bucks... Hey, and it will even LOOK like the private streetcars that were stolen from us so, so, long ago.
Don't completely discount BRT, at least not the concept of priority, lanes and up grades to the infrastructure. Just for the sake of thought, if the Skyway DID end at 8Th and Jefferson, and if we built another Kings Avenue type station there, with the buses on one side and the STREETCAR on the other, I feel certain you would see success all across the board. Note that I said success, not profit. Anyone in this thread still looking for profit from Amtrak, Transit, Skyway, Streetcars, Buses etc... consider the new investment in buildings, offices and jobs, would more then pay - however indirectly - for the system. The key word is SYSTEM, without a good mix, laid out in a matrix, we don't have mass transit, we have a few bus routes, end of story!
Anyone else up for a few hours at the Skyway?(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/BROOKLYNPARKSKYWAYSTATION.jpg)
The plan is SWEET, just add streetcar! But keeping it on paper and not in brick is just plain dumb!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Dog Walker on October 10, 2009, 10:43:28 AM
Have any of the JTA planners ever been in a city with LRT? Not just the tourist lines, but a working system? Idiots!
pretty sad statement...considering I doubt you know any of the JTA planners in person...if you did, you wouldn't have asked the question
Perhaps if JTA could begin to get some transit elements for free (hint: bus shelters, etc.), maybe we could use other funds to finally get some rail plans implemented. However, its kind of hard to do anything worthwhile in a cheap city that doesn't want to pay for quality services or improve what they have for free with public/private partnerships. Sometimes you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Tampa progresses, we regress. What happened to the "Bold New City of the South?"
Heights Unknown
Quote from: thelakelander on October 09, 2009, 07:09:49 AM
While the extension is a short one, if applied to Jax, it would be like extending the Skyway down Riverside Avenue to hit Fidelity or to Atlantic Blvd to serve Hendricks Av and San Marco Square.
QuoteFederal stimulus funds to add buses, vans and streetcar rails in Tampa
By Michael Van Sickler, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Tuesday, April 7, 2009
TAMPA — Federal stimulus money is on its way to boost Hillsborough County's transit system.
On Monday, Hillsborough Area Regional Transit's governing board approved spending more than $15.1 million in federal stimulus money, including about $7.8 million on 29 buses and two paratransit vans, which are used to shuttle elderly or disabled passengers too frail to travel by bus. Another $1.5 million will be spent to operate the fleet of 36 paratransit vans.
About $1 million was approved to extend downtown's streetcar system about a third of a mile from the Tampa Convention Center to the outer business and office district on Whiting Street. Overall, the extension will cost about $5.5 million; construction is to begin this summer and be completed by mid 2010, according to HART spokesman Ed Crawford.
The remainder of the money, about $3.8 million, will be spent on improvements to operations, equipment and security.
"This helps tremendously," Crawford said. "We were behind on bus purchases, so this gets us up to date."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article990149.ece
So Lakelander, do you think that extension, though short, is viable and needed in Tampa? And...will it be workable and successful?
In my opinion if the same extension were put into Jax, it might not work.
Heights Unknown
[[/quote]
Quote from: thelakelander on October 09, 2009, 08:17:59 AM
Yeah, Tampa isn't the most progressive place. Its funny that people would see a $52 million transit investment as a boondoggle when its helped spur over a billion dollars in development along that 3 mile corridor. The Channel District was a real dump before all those mixed use projects and warehouse conversions came online. One of these days I'm going to have to pull out my photo archives and post some images of what this area looked like a decade ago.
I agree. That area was run down, blighted, and abandoned ten or more years ago. I have had the pleasure of performing in that area with a couple of bands I was with and it seems to be humming, teeming and buzzing with people. Entertainment Venues are also beginning to pop up and grace that area. I think it is slowly beginning to take over as the premier spot for entertainment from Ybor City.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on October 11, 2009, 07:24:47 AM
So Lakelander, do you think that extension, though short, is viable and needed in Tampa? And...will it be workable and successful?
Right now, Tampa's streetcar is nothing more than a tourist train that completely misses DT Tampa. While this is short, it makes sense to extend the line into DT Tampa. With this extension, you make the system accessible to thousands of DT visitors and office workers. I already consider the TECO streetcar a success from the economic development standpoint. Adding a decent walkable destination as a terminal point can only help with ridership and spread economic development opportunities to bridge the gap between DT and the Channel District.
QuoteIn my opinion if the same extension were put into Jax, it might not work.
Heights Unknown
An example of a similar extension in Jax could be taking the skyway from Kings Avenue station, across the FEC, to Atlantic Blvd, establishing a direct high frequency transit connection between DT, Hendricks Avenue and San Marco Square. Imo, its hard to prove that a reliable fixed transit connection between DT and one of Jax's most vibrant walkable neighborhoods, dining and entertainment districts would not attract higher ridership than what exists today.
At least Tampa is doing something which is more than I can say for Jacksonville! We appear to be more concerned with "Advertising" than we do with adding shelters. Don't forget the historical districts will be exempt from what I have seen,but the ridership numbers are higher in terms of useage.....so I guess its OK to not have advertising there but all right for the rest of the City! I digress............Tampa is one up on us and Jacksonville is still lost!
TUFSU, I do know a couple of planners in person and they have not been in a city with real working LRT. They even self identify as "highway planners." The only time they have ever been out of the country was to Cancun on spring break.
Jacksonville had the first expressway system in the South. Yes, ahead of Atlanta. It was very successful and lowered travel times even in a city that had bridges as choke points. IMO, that early success has ingrained a culture of asphalt and concrete into our planners so that they have difficulty even conceiving of any alternatives.
then I would argue you don't know their planning staff at all..I can tell you that they have been to Denver and Charlotte just in the last year or so.