I'm just tossing this out there to see if it rings a bell with anyone else:
From what I've gathered/heard over the years from a few long-time residents of the Westside (namely, 103rd - Jax Heights - Wesconnett area): as far back as the 1920s, this area was known as 'Wildcat Bay'. It was a rather dense, swampy area, and was known for the stills and moonshiners that inhabited the area. Apparently there was also a railroad that ran near the current 103rd/I-295 area. (In T.F. Davis' 1925 book, "History of Jacksonville, FL", he makes mention of a standard gauge line that travelled between the Cummer property and Alachua County in the 1800s which I imagine would likely have to pass through this general area.)
I've searched for more information about the history of this area, but it's either extremely hard to come by or non-existent. Granted, what little history of the area I've learned is simply word of mouth and unconfirmed. Has anyone else come across information about this area of Jacksonville? I'd be interested to know if you've heard a similar history...
First I've heard. If longtime residents say it's so then there must be some creedence to it. I'll try some googling and other searching and see what comes up.
Heights Unknown
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Florida%20Shortline%20Transportation/FloridaLogger.jpg)
Found you a couple of photos, to give you some idea. This scene is on the Upchurch Lumber road, South of Hastings, FL, the steam skidders have finished dragging the logs to the tap line and in the distance a McGriffet Loader is putting together a train. (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Florida%20Shortline%20Transportation/OVRRshop.jpg)
This is the "railroad shop" in Ft. McCoy, on the Ocklawaha Valley Railroad, a logger that tried and failed, to grow into a vital rail system. The roads chief engineer is up on the engine, and his small daughter in the big white hat, stands below. She became the author of the booklets "Salty Crackers" and last time we spoke she was living around Silver Springs. (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2191/2156925753_f7496719a9.jpg)
Sometimes fortune smiles on the one who dares to hike in search of the truth.(http://www.thegnats.com/wvpics/100_0239.jpg)
Few Florida companies could afford the luxury of this SHAY Locomotive. With a boiler offset to one side, the cylinders mounted vertically over a crank shaft, with gear drive to four wheel trucks under each end of the engine. The advantage was the Universal Joints on those trucks kept the Shay flexible on the worst track. Something a regular "stiff" engine like the 1504, behind the Prime Osbourne could NEVER do. Quote from: kam311 on October 08, 2009, 11:41:40 AM
I'm just tossing this out there to see if it rings a bell with anyone else:
From what I've gathered/heard over the years from a few long-time residents of the Westside (namely, 103rd - Jax Heights - Wesconnett area): as far back as the 1920s, this area was known as 'Wildcat Bay'. It was a rather dense, swampy area, and was known for the stills and moonshiners that inhabited the area. Apparently there was also a railroad that ran near the current 103rd/I-295 area. (In T.F. Davis' 1925 book, "History of Jacksonville, FL", he makes mention of a standard gauge line that travelled between the Cummer property and Alachua County in the 1800s which I imagine would likely have to pass through this general area.)
I've searched for more information about the history of this area, but it's either extremely hard to come by or non-existent. Granted, what little history of the area I've learned is simply word of mouth and unconfirmed. Has anyone else come across information about this area of Jacksonville? I'd be interested to know if you've heard a similar history...
kam311, WELCOME!
The nearest rail line to the area you are speaking of would have been:
1. The Seaboard Air Line Railroad, today's CSX mainline from Baldwin, Starke, Waldo and South.
2. The Seaboard Air Line Railroad, today's CSX mainline from Jacksonville to New Orleans alongside Beaver Street, highway US 90.
3. The Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, today's CSX mainline from Jacksonville to Tampa alongside Roosevelt Blvd, highway US 17.
The only other regular railroads in the area was the old Jacksonville Southwestern, which became part of the Atlantic Coast Line, and is today the Jacksonville-Baldwin Rail Trail. It didn't turn Southwest until west of Baldwin, then dropped down to Lake Butler, High Springs. The Traction Company routes in the area ended in Murray Hill, Lackawanna, and NAS Jax. so none of that trackage ever reached out so far.
The key to a railroad in your area may lay in the words, "Cummer Lumber." Until about 1960 virtually all logging was done by rail. The companies would lay down a "mainline" which often had a grade, bridges, water tanks, fuel platforms and rarely even a depot or two, and looked much like the railroads of the era. The mainline often connected camps made up of rail car mounted cabins, or fixed camp sites. The camps had bunkhouses, blacksmith shops, saw shops, teamster barns, rail facilities, Supervisors house, and sometimes a depot or even a hotel. Between camps, which could be miles appart, the rail line would have branchlines into "the woods", each branchline then had a nearly geometric layout of a secondary tap line every few hundred yards. These tap lines were literally thrown on the ground, with little or no engineering going into them.
The trains would run from the tap lines, to the branches, to the logging mainline, and out either to a mill, a river/lake log dump site. Often the went to a major railroad connection where the cars would be interchanged for destinations such as Jacksonville or Palatka, both huge lumber centers. The major difference was as long as they stayed on the logging line, they could use any gauge track, any type of car, coupler, safety appliance/or lack thereof. To send a car on to the regular railroads they had to play by the rules, which was too costly for some of the smaller operations.
My guess is, any right of ways on a grade that you find, are probably related to the logging railroads, or early turnpikes, which were improved dirt or corduroy (log) roads.
One last note, keep in mind too that the Confederate Government built two lines of earthwork fortifications that extended some 15 miles from the far NW of Duval to the Argyle area. If this is your grade, it will zig-zag every 50/100 feet. It's still very much a part of the City, though unknown to most, I took Stephen and Lake out to see a preserved section and we did an article on it sometime back. "Camp Milton". (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/56/172289006_9ebfb05d10.jpg)
This one is a freebie, the remains of the "Mann's Creek Railroad" in West Virginia... Yes, THAT Mann family!OCKLAWAHA
Thanks, Ock!
I've never noticed any remnants of tracks or anything that stands out, but I'll have to take a closer look next time I'm over there. Having backpacked in areas of the Great Smoky Mountains that were subject to logging in the 1800s, I've seen what you're talking about. They've even got tracks still on the sides of Clingman's Dome, as well as an old engine left back in the forest if you know where to look for it. Obviously, the Westside's seen too much development over the years to preserve much, but I've got a certain location in mind that I'll have to re-inspect soon. Hopefully something interesting turns up!
I hope you find the old Red Barn BBQ while you're back there!
oh wow ... that takes me back ... I remember the Red Barn BBQ on Wesconnett - great place (went as a child with my parents)
The Red Barn? Oh hell, I was hoping for Milligans or maybe LUM'S HOT DOGS - Boiled in Beer! Anyone remember Coopers Hardware? WT Grants? or the big Pic-n-Save? House of Bargains? When Cedar Hills Shopping Center opened the new segment with a real JC Penny store, man we thought we were UPTOWN! Wow such memory's.
OCKLAWAHA
I remember the Red Barn. Good stuff. I think it was around until the late 80's. I can't remember exactly where is was on Wesconnett. I am thinking right off of Timuquana to the right.
I think you are right, David.
Ock, I remember all that, except the hardware store and Grant's - where was the Grant's out there? (I remember the one downtown - where the JEDC offices are now).
Remember the slot-car track in Cedar Hills shopping center? It was in that little courtyard area - spent way too much time and money there in misspent youth. :D
I remember the Penneys and there was a record store in the strip. Also, a Movie Gallery (precursor to Blockbuster). And a Bally's Great Escape (think that is what is was called) game room was an out parcel on the south end of the area by the theatre. Circa 1983/84 we would float between that game room and Putt-Putt a little futher down Blanding. Those were pretty hot spots when you were 17. :) Sad to see what Cedar Hills has become. Pawn shops, cash advance, adult novelty stores etc.
Before the Bally's game room was a game room, I think it was an Arthur Treacher's Fish n Chips place.
The Grants store was one of the last the chain built, it was frickin huge (at least we thought so) and sat at 103rd and Blanding on the SW corner. Haven't been past there in years, but some time back the building was still in use as something else.
Coopers Hardware, was a hole in the wall in that little antique strip of buildings where Wesconnet and 103Rd came together. Once you squeezed into the door, it just wandered from shop to shop, it was a maze, they were known for having not much of anything-but a little bit of EVERYTHING! They formed a company, Florida-Brasil Cattle and Grain Corp., with my dad, and we all ended up in the prairie north of Brasilia! Something like 10,000 acres of land? +/- Suposedly a chunk of which is mine for the claiming but I've not been back to that little town in forever.
Anyone remember the bakery at Venetia Village? The tiny Winn-Dixie with the worlds slowest ceiling fans, and two squeeky screen doors with the metal "Southern Bread" logo's on the push bar? There was a Rexall Drug store on that corner and all us rotten Ortega kids knew they had the best soda fountain in the State. There was also a Slot Car track in that center, Roosevelt at Timuquana. Just to the south was Trouts Restaurant, which looks so small today! But it was a hopping spot back in the 50's-60's and into the 70's. Today the building still stands and is some kind of Auto or Insurance agency. Best place in the world to sit in the early morning and watch the Atlantic Coast Line's parade of purple-silver-and-gold passenger trains race south along Roosevelt. At dinner time you could watch them all headed North.
OCKLAWAHA
Wasn't there a "Hawaiian Luau" near the water in Cedar Hills(?) that burned down within minutes in the '70s? I believe that a thatch roof didn't help things either.
Think you are right Blizz. It wasn't far from the Ryan's Steakhouse (err shot out remains of Ryan's...good luck selling that building).
Quote from: blizz01 on October 08, 2009, 10:37:03 PM
Wasn't there a "Hawaiian Luau" near the water in Cedar Hills(?) that burned down within minutes in the '70s? I believe that a thatch roof didn't help things either.
Bamboo Luau on the Cedar River at Blanding, I believe.
Remember Pritchett's Kitchen? AYCE fried shrimp $.99 back in the 60s.
Wow, remember almost all of these places growning up in the Jacksonville Heights area. Remember:
-going to pic n save at 103rd and Blanding. always wanted to go to toy section while my dad wanted to go into
the hardware section and check tv tubes in the tube tester.
-remember going in the hardware store on timuquana and 103rd for various things.
-remember the fish n chips, slot car track shop, and movie theatre in Cedar hills shopping center. Also remember
as a kid getting in trouble running up the escalator the wrong way at JC pennys in the Cedar Hills shopping center.
-remember getting my first GIJoe at Kmart on Blanding BLVD.
-remember getting milk and ice cream at skinners dairy on Ricker Road.
-remember my dad giving each of us kids 5 dollars each when he got back from vietnam, to spend as we saw fit at pic n save.
-etc etc etc
The Red Barn was on the lot on Wesconnett now occupied by Florida Pest Control. Growing up in Cedar Hills we ate there quite a bit. Lum's was also really good, in the Cedar Hills Mall parking lot. Some other lost places nearby: Arty's Pizza, S&S (of course), Sir Goony Golf, Ayer's, Gunning's Hardware, Mrs. Winner's (for like...a year), Godfather's Pizza...aw crap...I'm old.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 08, 2009, 11:55:34 PM
Remember Pritchett's Kitchen? AYCE fried shrimp $.99 back in the 60s.
Oh my yes! Some of the best food in the citys history. They had jaw dropping house salad dressings, their 1,000 Islands was legend. I think it finally burned down, one of the many times I was wandering around the freaking Amazon, or Colombia, or Sao Paulo, or Rio, or Panama, or oh hell, I don't remember. But the TV river monster guy is right, YOU CAN wade across streams where the Parana are everywhere, rather like most gators here, they don't give a damn.
That restaurant brings to mind several... TROUTS, on US 17 South of Timuquana. TADS, on Park Street in Brooklyn by Forest. PAT AND MIKES, on Lane Avenue out in the truck stops of the day.
Another cool place that came up and went down in maybe 10 years time, I think is was called KEYS FISH CAMP, and it was on that first lot north of Timuquana, on that tiny creek a few blocks east of Wesconnett. I always thought an upstream fish camp, small boat marina, store etc... was a great idea. I'd love to duplicate that old place somewhere. There's a small creek like that in Orange Park between Doctors Lake and Kingsley, depending on ownership, it might even be able to front on 17...
Hey, at least dreams are cheap. Maybe down here in St. Johns County on Trout Creek or 6 Mile?????OCKLAWAHA
Ock, Tads is back as "One Door Down" I think. Literally, its name describes its current location from where the original Tads was at Forest and Park (?). Ate there a while back and it was good as ever. Same crowd following Norman including lot's of politicos like his cousin (?), Tommy Hazouri.
Quote from: stjr on October 15, 2009, 12:15:01 AM
Ock, Tads is back as "One Door Down" I think. Literally, its name describes its current location from where the original Tads was at Forest and Park (?). Ate there a while back and it was good as ever. Same crowd following Norman including lot's of politicos like his cousin (?), Tommy Hazouri.
Tads still exists, though its on lane ave near San juan. Different owners, but still basically the same menu
QuoteSad to see what Cedar Hills has become. Pawn shops, cash advance, adult novelty stores etc.
Hardly, it has turned into what we in real estate call, renter heaven. The great flight to outside the perimeter left us with what we have now.
Great point about the outward bound sprawl............
Recall the 1970's era announcement by Gulfstream Land Development of ambitious plans for their project along the Clay/Duval border. (This is why the Brannon/Chaffee road proposal came in to being....not,as commomly believed,for Blanding "alleviation")
The development lagged,foreclosures.Some of the lands along the then dirt road Brannon/Chaffee ended up as Trust For Public Lands option-about 1900 acres. The state of Florida Fish & Game Commission Brannon/Chaffee Mitigation Park stalled at 600 acres,the Trust released it's grasp on lands that could have been future conservation/recreation (great,under reported story!) and the rest of the story is under the heading "Oakleaf" and the "Outer Beltway".I had a work associate who moved to Oakleaf and put a for sale sign back up before they even finished moving in.
A classic example of sprawl- and a cause for the "shift" of 103rd street et al.