Another expressway on the way for Jax. This time it will only cost $82.4 million for 4.2 miles ($20 million/mile).
QuoteFlorida 9B, linking 9A and U.S. 1, moving forward
The project is expected to take 900 days to complete.
Construction on the long planned Florida 9B highway in southern Jacksonville will begin in 2010 and should be open to the public sometime in 2012.
On Monday, the Florida Department of Transportation began advertising for contractors who would build the project. The advertisement on FDOT’s website said the project is not to exceed $82.4 million.
Florida 9B will be built from Florida 9A to U.S. 1 near Bayard.
The deadline for contractors to indicate an interest in the project is Oct. 20. FDOT expects to have a contractor in place by March, 2010 with work beginning on the roadway soon after.
The project is expected to take 900 days to complete, with both design work and the actual construction occurring during that time frame, said FDOT spokeswoman Gina Busscher.
Money for the project is coming from an earlier round of roadwork funded by the federal stimulus that came in under budget.
http://jacksonville.com/news/2009-10-05/story/florida_9b_linking_9a_and_us_1_moving_forward
They can find 82.4 million dollars for this, but none for mass transit or a street car system? And, this is a road that parallels by only a little distance I-95 and US-1. What a super waste of resources. MJ should do a study on the property owners that will benefit from this. Who gets credit for pushing this boondoggle down our throats?
Unfortunately, the unnecessary Outer Beltway will also get done soon. Urban sprawl continues and we wonder why we can't improve our quality of life. Where are all the anti-tax people to fight these projects that will just drive taxes higher when we are asked to subsidize the extra infrastructure for this sprawl? ???
And people wonder why we're called the Shoulder of Florida. We shoulder more than our fair share of stupid is what it is, and this is further proof.
God we need some new people running not only this city, but our FDOT region, FDOT itself, and the state. We need better and smarter leaders.
All these " Stop Tax Waste" people need to look at FDOT long and hard, they'd be stunned.
We need to start holding people accountable for these projects. MJ needs to start NAMING the politicians, movers and shakers, and decision makers responsible for these idiot projects. Maybe a little "sunshine" would scare off these cockroaches and give us better use of our taxpayer dollars and smarter growth! How about it, MJ? Some investigative reporting. Time to take it up a notch.
Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2009, 12:07:40 AM
we could use your help, stjr!
We have a pretty clear idea of how the outerbeltway works, we just need the research time to prove the connections and ownership of the land.
I would really love to, Stephen, but a full time job prevents me.
How about a partnership with the T-U or Folio or, if you could put it in motion, using a hard-up ex-journalist from the newspaper business. After a few hard hitting stories, you would probably exponentially increase your readership and maybe get enough new ad dollars to pay for more such stories. I believe there are endless investigative stories in our area, just too few outlets to investigate them. Another great opportunity for MJ to exploit and maybe the future model for journalism. Go for it!
Stephen, a partnership with a print medium could be a win-win. Unlike the T-U, I don't think Folio is a powerhouse on the web. Maybe you could compliment each other somehow with dual ad placements and simultaneous stories. I bet you have quite an overlap in demographics and appeal and could fuel each other's following quite a bit.
But don't forget to get those investigative stories out of the deal. That is the engine that can drive everyone to new heights including our community. A few more incensed citizens is what we need. Stir them up!
Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2009, 11:33:22 PM
Another expressway on the way for Jax. This time it will only cost $82.4 million for 4.2 miles ($20 million/mile).
To be fair, bids will likely come in for less than $82 million....and the cost does include interchange ramps w/ 9A...at US 1, the road will just dead-end.
A future extension costing around $100 million will add interchange ramps at US 1 and extend it to I-95.
Quote from: stjr on October 05, 2009, 11:38:44 PM
They can find 82.4 million dollars for this, but none for mass transit or a street car system? And, this is a road that parallels by only a little distance I-95 and US-1.
This was a top state priority project, funded with extra money from the Federal stimulus caused by road contracts coming in under price....but it had to be spent on roads (as per the legislation)
Note that the state intends to fund statewide transit as well...they've applied for grants for resumption of service on the FEC, SunRail, and HSR...total cost of those 3 projects is around $5 Billion
tufsu1, is the interchange with I-95 included in the future extension's $100 million price tag?
In theory yes....based on estimates from FDOT last year, the entire 9B project would cost around $200 million...the portion from 9A to just north of US 1 (not including interchange ramps) was estimated to be around $50 million.
But keep in mind that the $200 million cost does not include extending 9B south of I-95 (to Racetrack Rd)...so not all of the interchange ramps would be built.
^ It just keeps getting better..... geeze!
Duval seemingly wants to cash in on the soon to be blossoming Nocatee and stretch more of the community across Duval borders.
This is government at its worst! Spend the money because if we don't we can't redirect it and someone else might get it. So we might as well waste the taxpayers money on our project rather than let it go for something really useful and needed. That's also how the $ky-high-way got built. This process has got to change.
As some of you know, I'm not a big SR 9B fan....but it is the #1 priority project for St. Johns County and has always been fairly high on the list for the Duval folks as well....the State would not have funded it if the locals didn't want it.
So if you have a problem with a road like this, you need to start with your respective County Commissioners!
Good advice tu.
I think he was remarking that people did not chime in.
Stephen, the referendum is called an election....we don't live in a democracy and never have...we elect people to represent us....if you don't like what they do, then throw them out!
But go ahead and hold a referndum in St. Johns County on whether SR 9B should be built or not...heck, so it in Duval too....you might be surprised by the results.
sorry...never meant to say the "people" put the project as #1....guess I should have been more clear in that the St. Johns County Commission has determined it to be their #1 Priority Transportation Project.
as for sprawl...it has different meanings for people....in my case it has always been about a certain aesthetic (i.e., strip retail) or leapfrog development....but building on undeveloped land adjacent to developed areas is not automatically sprawl to me.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 06, 2009, 04:28:41 PM
sorry...never meant to say the "people" put the project as #1....guess I should have been more clear in that the St. Johns County Commission has determined it to be their #1 Priority Transportation Project.
as for sprawl...it has different meanings for people....in my case it has always been about a certain aesthetic (i.e., strip retail) or leapfrog development....but building on undeveloped land adjacent to developed areas is not automatically sprawl to me.
Well, maybe the St. Johns County commissioners should butt out of making decisions they are not qualified to make. It's clear they have no idea what they are doing if this is the best way they could come up with to spend over $200+ millii on ultimate transportation dollars for their county. Total incompetence to me.
As to urban sprawl, here is one definition highlighted by Wikipedia:
QuoteUrban sprawl, also known as suburban sprawl, is the spreading outwards of a city and its suburbs over rural land and to its outskirts.
Based on this definition, I would say expanding to adjacent undeveloped land is the epitome of urban sprawl. This highlights the problem: Sprawl happens daily in front of us, but we often fail to recognize it until we come to the all-too-late recognition that we have swallowed up all those great undeveloped and natural open spaces with a bunch of mundane tract housing and strip shopping centers around a multilaned strip of asphalt. Any area around the First Coast pretty much qualifies with more candidates joining the club daily.
Makes me wonder just who is gonna make out on this deal.....sure won't be the public! We get to pay for the road and the developers get to make houses with fancy names! I sure wish my tax dollars were used wisely and by the way......I do keep track of how my Representatives vote and if they get too out of the mainstream then I make note ....sooner or later they have to come up for reelection and if they have not done their job.....they are gone period! But that's just my take!
Darts to the T-U for blindly supporting growth and urban sprawl with this endorsement editorial just posted in support of 9B. A bunch of exaggerated, self serving statements about traffic relief with the best support they could muster of "holds much promise" and "could." What basis is that for building this road? Very weak thinking but what do you expect for a pork barrel project. I especially "like" the logic that finishing the first phase justifies building the next phase. Urban sprawl at its best, T-U! Once again, misplaced priorities for our limited transportation funding. Shame on the T-U for selling out on this one. Who got to you?
I like the cite at the end of all the usual bureaucratic and developer-friendly agencies and politicos who made this project possible. I hope everyone clips it out, puts it on the refrigerator, and remembers it the next time they vote! Of course, three (JTA, MPO, and NFRC) of the EMPOWERING groups are UNELECTED officials. How convenient. Maybe their makeup and control should be an item for the Charter Review Commission.QuoteFlorida 9B: Success at last
* Story updated at 12:25 AM on Monday, Oct. 19, 2009
Bids are being sought for construction on Florida 9B.
Those words - so elusive for years - are finally reality.
The Florida Department of Transportation started advertising for the work from Florida 9A to U.S. 1 in Southeast Jacksonville this week.
The $82.4 million project made possible by federal stimulus money will extend a road that holds much promise in relieving traffic in parts of Duval and St. Johns counties, although the St. Johns County part that would extend to County Road 2209 remains unfunded.
But just getting to this point has been the major challenge - and represents a major victory.
The state earmarked money for the initial part of the road into its five-year plans, but those plans shifted in and out of focus, making Florida 9B a road on paper that seemed to elude traction for getting done.
Much to their credit, however, various local politicos refused to let Florida 9B slip out of the public consciousness.
The expansion of the Jacksonville port and the role 9B could play in providing another outlet for truck traffic gave local leaders new ammunition for arguing the case of the road to various agencies and the state Legislature.
They made various pleas to the leadership of the state Legislature and the Florida DOT for the worthiness of funding.
When federal stimulus money became available from other work that came in under budget, Florida 9B wasn't an afterthought.
The initial phase of the road is now on target to be completed in 2012. Having that section done will make a stronger case for finishing the rest of the project in St. Johns County.
It's nice to see a project of tomorrow become a project of today at long last.
local leaders helped Florida 9B: The project was kept on the front burner by trying to earmark local money that shows a local government commitment for luring state and federal help. Some of the leaders: Some members of the Jacksonville City Council, the St. Johns County Commission, First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization, the Northeast Florida Regional Council and the Jacksonville Transportation Authority.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2009-10-19/story/florida_9b_success_at_last
Sounds like a broken record.
Can I get a map of where this proposed road will go?
Im not a Jax Native, I live over here in Tally.
Furthermore, how is this justified? I did a small bit of research and if I understand correctly this will only cut off less than 10 miles distance to 95 South..
How is that efficient?
I dont get it at All....
TD*.........if you go back through this thread you will find a projected map of both the 9A and B route. Pork at it's most magnificent best! Too bad the TU Article did not give names on the COJ Council members who pushed for the this...........I would take bets that Daniel Davis was one just off the top of my head due to his ties with the Builders Association (at least I don't remember him resigning as President of that organization) This is just one more example of the GOB Network hard add it.....not only do we get to pay to build it, we get to pay to maintain it.......wow! What a deal for the taxpayers!
stjr....two fact flaws with your rant above
1. The MPO (or TPO as its now called) does include localgovt. elected officials
2. The Charter Review Commission has no jurisdiction over regional bodies like the TPO or NEFRC....and I'm not as convinced as some that they have any say over the makeup of JTA either
The other major problem is the issue about the extension.....while I have never been a fan of 9B, constructing the road only to US 1 is useless....it needs to connect 9A to I-95...and an extension to Racetrack Road would provide a better grid system and minimize the traffic impacts of the Julington Creek area (which is Duval and St. Johns counties) on SR 13 and US 1.
I would agree that any further extensions are purely sprawl inducers.
From the look of things, the most needed section is the southern half of it (I-95 and South). This would at least tie in Race Track Road with an interchange at I-95, thus relieving 210. The first phase seems to be redundant with I-95 and 9A already in place, but does open that area up to sprawl growth if that's the goal (which I suspect it may be if you dig deep enough behind the concept).
I'm still confused as to how the area north of I-95 gets opened up for development as a result of SR 9B...this area can already be accessed from US 1 and 9B won't have any other interchanges.
When I get some time, I'll post a few land use maps and further explain how it will open land for future development.
Lake, the southern half would also help relieve San Jose BLVD because of Julington Creek Plantation.
lake..........I agree with your gut feeling, opening up that area for development! They can hem and haw all they want.....developer nirvana and away we go.......I give it maybe 2 to 3 years tops and viola........another high dollar development will be kicking off!! We get to pay for it and maintain it .....lucky us! I would really like to know just who on the COJ Council was pushing for this......already posted Davis who has his builder buddies in mind I am sure, just not quite sure who else had a finger in that pie!
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 19, 2009, 08:09:06 AM
stjr....two fact flaws with your rant above
1. The MPO (or TPO as its now called) does include localgovt. elected officials
2. The Charter Review Commission has no jurisdiction over regional bodies like the TPO or NEFRC....and I'm not as convinced as some that they have any say over the makeup of JTA either
The other major problem is the issue about the extension.....while I have never been a fan of 9B, constructing the road only to US 1 is useless....it needs to connect 9A to I-95...and an extension to Racetrack Road would provide a better grid system and minimize the traffic impacts of the Julington Creek area (which is Duval and St. Johns counties) on SR 13 and US 1.
I would agree that any further extensions are purely sprawl inducers.
Tufsu, I wouldn't call them "fact flaws" as much as "propositions" for change from the status quo. We need a responsive plannning entity that is beholden to the community rather than special interests. I doubt most of us could readily identify who among our elected reps (if they are even the appropriate ones to serve) serves on these agencies, whether they actually attend or just send staffers, and how they actually vote (are votes recorded by voter or is it just the final tally?). I think the overall process is obscure enough that it would not be readily apparent to any but the most committed of diehards as to how and who pushed for what decisions, especially when its threaded between so many bodies.
The process by which priorities for projects are set should be more transparent. Not sure if this means revising the process or just getting more information in the press and the public's hands as to what factors into setting priorities and how specific choices are made. Maybe meetings should be televised like the school board and city council. Instead of wasting a full page on restaurant inpsections in the T-U, maybe they should list how each person involved in this process votes, what the meeting agendas are, and when the public can appear to speak. In other words, transportation development should get the same limelight that taxes, crime, and sports do in this town.
P.S. My guess is the urgency to extend 9B to US 1, even without I-95, is to support the traffic coming off the nearly completed Nocatee Parkway that will dump all of its traffic on US 1 a few miles to the south. Again, politics and urban sprawl at warp speed.
no...the reason that 9B is being funded is because it has been a highly ranked priority project by the TPO for years and there was left over $ after bids for the initial stimulus projects came in under the FDOT estimates....but there was only enough $ to fund a portion of the road, which is why the part to US 1 is being built.
As for the TPO, it is a federally and state mandated body...so a local charter review commission can't do much....that said, your ideas on making the process more transparent are good....maybe you should call/e-mail the TPO with your ideas.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 19, 2009, 04:43:31 PM
no...the reason that 9B is being funded is because it has been a highly ranked priority project by the TPO for years ...
I understand, Tufsu, but the question is why?Quote...that said, your ideas on making the process more transparent are good....maybe you should call/e-mail the TPO with your ideas.
Thanks, Tufsu. It seems you know these people well too. Perhaps you could also bring it to their attention.
Tufsu1, what's the minimal distance allowed between interstate interchanges? The proposed Collins Road interchange and Blanding are pretty close to each other. There's less space there than an interchange along 9B, between 9A and US 1 would be between exits. How was the Collins Road interchange approved?
Minimal spacing ranges from 1 mile to 3 miles, depending on whether the area is urban, surburban, or rural....the Collins interchange got approved because C/D roads will connect the two interchanges....in essence, if you're traveling west/north on I-295 and want to get off on Collins, you'll actually exit the mainline facility before Blanding.
How many times a day will we hear of crashes along this section when this is all done?
reednavy what is your problem? Crashes are a way of life and to be expected when people don't follow the traffic rules! I AGREE by the way...........talk about urban sprawl and a lack of cohesive urban planning and here is a classic example! I don't care how long it has been talked about, this will just open that area up for development! This sounds like a DR Horton project coming to me! Sure am glad I get to pay for it! My tax dollars hard at work so developers can earn lots of money for their shareholders.......taxpayers be damned!
My problem? Having two intersections that close together on a section of the interstate that has a fairly nice curve in it. The backup due to the Blanding ramps still spills out onto the highway and people trying to merge on or off will be worse with the addition of a new interchange. I guess FDOT has never heard of left onramps?
Either way, it is a waste.
guess you don't understand what C/D roads are...check out an aerial of I-95 around I-595 in Ft. Lauderdale...you'll notice that several exits are acceseed from the side...allowing through vehicles to avoid the weaving....that's what we'll have here (albeit on a msaller scale)
Good lord, that whole area looks like a concrete clusterf*ck. Hopefully there will be plenty of signage for this area. People here can't even merge w/o causing a big deal, let's see how this goes.
However, looking at the image, I've seen this in more urban environments, not usually suburban areas. We'll see how it works.
reednavy I was being sarcastic! FDOT has several boondoogles around Jacksonville............Southside hook up from acess road Bay Meadows Cirlcle west, Belfort road onto JTB and the like! What we need are traffic control roundabouts..........less concrete, no lights perfect solution right?
Quote from: reednavy on October 19, 2009, 08:42:18 PM
How many times a day will we hear of crashes along this section when this is all done?
Good lord knows there are no crashes on the existing roads LOL!!!!
Quote from: civil42806 on October 20, 2009, 06:58:51 AM
Good lord knows there are no crashes on the existing roads LOL!!!!
If you didn't get what I was saying, I was talking about how many more will we see because we all the worst drivers in the metro area are from Clay County.
QuoteThe other major problem is the issue about the extension.....while I have never been a fan of 9B, constructing the road only to US 1 is useless....it needs to connect 9A to I-95...and an extension to Racetrack Road would provide a better grid system and minimize the traffic impacts of the Julington Creek area (which is Duval and St. Johns counties) on SR 13 and US 1.
I would agree that any further extensions are purely sprawl inducers
You don't think the same reliever could be created by simply building an interchange at Racetrack and I95? Even if the road needed to be slightly redirected to the north to limit interference with the rest area it would still provide the same connection to US1 to the east and even on into Nocatee.
yes...that would be the same and would be my preference....but spacing requirements would mean either moving the rest stops or building C/d roads connecting the rest stops with the interchange.
IMO, collector/distributer roads between Racetrack and CR 210 would be ideal because it would easily push the stalled traffic exiting/entering I95 at CR210 away from the through traffic. The CR210 interchange is already getting mile long exit ramps on I95 SB to separate the exiting traffic from the other lanes. They could be easily tied into a C/D system.
I keep getting the impression this is a game plan being made up as it tries to move forward. I have yet to see just how 9B is going to do much of anything other than open that area up to developers which we need without planning for it like another hold in the head! Maybe we should consider making the 9B extension a "Toll" road in order to control traffic useage and get some return on our tax money?
If it is to be a toll road I think we will see just how useless it is.
QuoteI keep getting the impression this is a game plan being made up as it tries to move forward.
Actually, this has been in the works for years. The PD&E and design are already done. Its not exactly being "made up as it tries to move forward".
cline that maybe so....I don't know for sure much about anything other than when I look at the total cost expended for the various projects being discussed,planned and in the works and stop and think about just what those dollars could do for a "Rail" system in place of all of the concrete being planned.........I say "What the Hell"! Noise reduction walls when the decibel levels make plain sound to the point it could be considered a health hazard, 6 to 8 lanes acoming because we need the additional wideth to handle all of the potential traffic? Gentlemen what is wrong with this picture?? 9B is just a developers inroad which kinda makes me wonder just who owns that part of the world and what might be their ultimate goal........I wonder what the developement will be named.......that would be the first one in and really glad I could help!
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
When I get some time, I'll post a few land use maps and further explain how it will open land for future development.
I bet you all thought I forgot about this! Here are a few maps to show why I believe 9B will open more land for low density sprawl development.
The image below contains an aerial, land use and zoning classification information for an isolated "high and dry" plot of land dab smack in the middle of the 9B segment between 9A and US 1.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/North-Florida-TPO-2035-Needs/9B-Land-Use/694856646_wLyaN-XL.jpg)
A. Zoning Use (upper left illustration)Notice the blue spot labled "CO." That stands for commercial office. Permitted uses include:
QuoteCommercial Office (CO) District.
(a) Permitted uses and structures.
(1) Medical and dental or chiropractor offices (but not clinics or hospitals).
(2) Professional or business offices.
(3) Cosmetology and similar uses including facilities for production of eyeglasses, hearing aids, dentures, prosthetic appliances and similar products either in conjunction with a professional service being rendered or in a stand alone structure not exceeding 4,000 square feet.
(4) Day care centers incidental to a professional office
(5) Essential services, including water, sewer, gas, telephone, radio, television and electric, meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4.
(6) Single family dwellings which were originally constructed as single family dwellings.
Who would zone for these types of uses on a plot of land with no visibility or access?
B. Land Use (upper right illustration).Notice the same spot, now green, and labled "CGC" or Community/General Commercial. Also take a look at the land labled LDR (Low Density Residential) going up the east side of 9B and 9A. My guess, is this commercial area will serve the low density sprawl that is eventually build on the land surrounding it, east of 9A and 9B.
C. larger Zoning Use image (lower left illustration)I find it interesting how 9B splits this area right in half. Its hard to imagine an isolated parcel like this, having a commercial designation and no possibility of future road access to connect it to the rest of the city's street network.
D. Aerial (lower right illustration)I find this aerial to be quite revealing. Judging from the plant material, most of this property seems to be pretty dry. All it needs is a little access and visibility to make it marketable. 9B will immediately provide the visibility. A few frontage roads can provide a little access. However, when push comes to shove and congestion becomes an issue, there's little doubt in my mind that some type of interchange (midway point would be in the area identified as RPI or Residential-Professional-Institutional in land use map) can be developed to give future development access to 9B. So in other words, the establishment of the 9B corridor opens development opportunities to land that has, up until now, been severely isolated and out of sight.
Lake, good work. Add that the land in this area is owned by the Davis's and others with intentions to develop, and you can be sure it will be under asphalt and concrete quick enough.
What would be especially interesting is if 9B has a built-in overpass in the vicinity of this area to cut an east-west road from US1/Philips Hwy to the eastern side of the future 9B. That would be an assurance of urban sprawl.
Many years ago I noted an MPO future roadways proposal map depicting a St.Augustine extension on down in to 'off limits' lands;Dee Dot,that we had just defended from the proposed Southeast Landfill.
Later,when the Nocatee "surprise" sprung it all made sense.
There is considerable predictive capability in tracking 'sprawl',although community organization and environmental groups have typically entered the arena late in the game.These posts are rare...and refreshing.
Why can't they go around Bayard, instead of taking the entire SE corner of it?
Quote from: north miami on October 27, 2009, 06:47:18 PM
Many years ago I noted an MPO future roadways proposal map depicting a St.Augustine extension on down in to 'off limits' lands;Dee Dot,that we had just defended from the proposed Southeast Landfill.
Later,when the Nocatee "surprise" sprung it all made sense.
Good insight, North Miami. It would be a "natural" to extend St. Augustine Road through Bayard as its new "main street" and onward to an interchange with 9B and then under it to the eastern lands held by the Davis's. Unfortunately, its not "if" but probably "when". Now we can begin to see the real reason for 9B and why sprawl just keeps unfolding. >:(
I'll go one step further in my prediction. The St. Augustine Road extension will become a new road to the beach. Based on aerials, tying into Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd. would bring it to A1A/Ponte Vedra at the southern boundary of TPC. How convenient!
[Aerial of Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd.: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=30.186869,-81.398649&spn=0.025188,0.038409&t=h&z=15 ]
(http://download.atlasrr.com/images/containers/1008/45'%20Container%20Hanjin.jpg)
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Nice maps Lake, good information.
As tusfu1 and myself have said about 100 times in other threads, this WHOLE THING is about the port. If you don't think this Port expansion gos WAAAAY PAST the local hype, just check out the Federal site on this road, I-795. It has taken the entire Southeast 50 years to get the I-22 corridor added to the Federal Interstate List, but along comes some home ports and badda-bing - badda-biff, instant Interstate connector.
I have been thinking of Jason's suggestion that port traffic could just use I-295/95's crumbling interchange and then head East/North to and from the port. Highway 9B/795 does cut off some miles, but the answer might be in part the fact that anyone traveling I-95 through the I-295 already knows that there isn't a solid piece of concrete anywhere on 95. A few more pounds and it's going to become the nations first gravel interstate.
(http://www.matts-place.com/intermodal/part1/images/hjcu1557272.jpg)
Headed North?
(http://lettres-histoire.ac-rouen.fr/histgeo/yokohama_k_line_container_terminal.jpg)
Hecksher Drive, I-295, MLK/Talleyrand? SOMETHING BETTER MOVE SOON!
The pounds are very interesting too. If we hit the projected 3,000,000 containers, actually I believe the Port is Projecting TEU's. A TEU is the standard shipping measurement for container traffic. While they do come in some other sizes and lengths, as a measure yardstick a TEU is a 20' x 8' 5", max weight 58,000 pounds (think in terms of what THAT would do to your driveway). If only a quarter of our containers head South into Florida, (realistic because Disney has named us THEIR cargo port for ALL Disney/Orient toys and...) that's still 750,000 TEU'S. One comes out with something like 4,350,000,000 Billion pounds. Ouch.
Unless City Hall steps up and rebuilds that "S" line, and cuts a deal for ownership and a shortline to leaseback neutral access to all of the Port, then every ounce of 2,054 big rig truck traffic moving south daily, will be on the highway.
I still say build it, and build additions all the way to the port, get the money while the Federals are handing it out! HEAVY ROADWAY construction, NOW!
OCKLAWAHA
Stevedare-
I see in an earlier post you note the need to track land owner involvement and influence in the Beltway process.
The curiosity is exactly,perfectly likely too late.
I have been a student of the beltway proposal since 1978.Today's organizations such as the River Keeper,Sierra etc. have been clue less.Only the Florida Wildlife Federation has seen involvement-I insisted on the creation of the FWF Northeast office due in part to address the 'defacto' beltway.The FWF has since engaged in Beltway related matters.(I abruptly resigned from my FWF vice chair position due to 'profound sense of futility'.Selfishly-I say get on with it- good for my book.I'm not staying around here anyway)
FTU David Baierlein trailed me for two days during critical (long past) events.
There are elements likely deserving formal investigation.
For starters: on the Clay County side Reinhold Corp/Jack Myers key 'driver' since the earliest implementation of the Local Government Planning act of the early 70's. Genesis Group as consultant for County Brannan/Chaffee sector plan and later,during Lake Asbury sector,Myers.And don't forget the Lake aAsbury sector plan (#1 - this time Prosser Hollock*Nocatee*) that wasn't- curiously deemed not authorized by state DCA on the eve of transmittal after months of proceedings failed to win pre determined putcome sought by development.See also Jack Myers attempt to swap Ravines State Conservation Lands for the beltway alighnment most beneficial to Reinhold...the early 70's dream.
On the St.Johns county side- see a curious swing in the road near the river-at the needed convenience of Randy Ringhaver and his 'sensitive' holdings,who earlier mailed a letter asking fellow land owners to oppose.
All the above but a figment of a highlight.I can't believe how bad 'Folio' is with this,-although as a result of a small mailing I made to Anne Schindler last month she knows or is reminded of much more than shared here.
stjr-
your thoughts on St.Augustine road extension...
Indeed,what we see is not what we get."Nocatee" came as a surprise perhaps in part to gain development credits/vesting while the getting was good,on the heels of pesky citizen Future Land Use Maps et al.
And they hit a home run,with weak legal challenge by Florida Wildlife Federation and Sierra,further watered down by Thousand Friends of Florida and outright public endorsement and a 'protected' Intracoastal area that was former sludge dump.
Since Nocatee St.Johns county has seen a run of DRI amidst basically ignored FLUM as only past PZB member David Wiles can describe.The future is paved-of course in friendly growth management terms,with remnant natural features.The unfolding urban transformation of a county that sold itself against evil Duval county will be telling.
Here too-the lack of "news" & insight.
Quote from: stjr on October 27, 2009, 06:56:12 PM
I'll go one step further in my prediction. The St. Augustine Road extension will become a new road to the beach. Based on aerials, tying into Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd. would bring it to A1A/Ponte Vedra at the southern boundary of TPC. How convenient!
On looking again at the aerials, an even more preposterous possibility is BOTH a St. Augustine Road local traffic extension to at least the intracoastal AND an interstate extension from the I-295/9A - 9B interchange eastward to the beaches.See map at: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida&ll=30.17125,-81.470833&spn=0.201535,0.307274&t=h&z=12
I'm not so sure about the Wilderness Trail extension, those are some very expensive waterfront homes in the way.
Oh wait, FDOT will just abuse eminent domain.
I always have wondered if those suckers got a bounty for using Eminant Domain? Those roads don't help the public one drop, we just get to pay for it going in and then taking care of it!
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 06:53:35 PM
Why can't they go around Bayard, instead of taking the entire SE corner of it?
they are...the line on the map is not quite right
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 27, 2009, 08:53:09 PM
they are...the line on the map is not quite right
Good, I was about to say wtf? Bayard is kinda peaceful, but I would not dare tread into during the night.
The map is right. The area of Bayard it goes through is undeveloped. The street ROW shows up because it was set aside for streets decades ago but they were never developed.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 27, 2009, 07:04:23 PM
As tusfu1 and myself have said about 100 times in other threads, this WHOLE THING is about the port. If you don't think this Port expansion gos WAAAAY PAST the local hype, just check out the Federal site on this road, I-795. It has taken the entire Southeast 50 years to get the I-22 corridor added to the Federal Interstate List, but along comes some home ports and badda-bing - badda-biff, instant Interstate connector.
Sorry Ock, I can't drink that kool aid. 9B has nothing to do with the port. Its just another route to get Northern St. Johns County residents in and out of the area faster. Unfortunately, the new development that will follow in the future will eventually congest it was well.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2009, 09:39:47 PM
The map is right. The area of Bayard it goes through is undeveloped. The street ROW shows up because it was set aside for streets decades ago but they were never developed.
actually Lake it isn't...you are correct that some of the Bayard roads were never built...but the 9B alignment has been shifted slightly to the east...if you look at an aerial on Bing, 9B will intersect w/ US 1 about 1/3 mile south of Gran Bay Pkwy....then will extend between Citicards Way and the adjacent residential subdivision on the way to I-95.
BTW...I also don't buy into this port thing...9B has been on statewide maps for at least 15 years...well before our Port contemplated serious expansion.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2009, 09:43:14 PM
Sorry Ock, I can't drink that kool aid. 9B has nothing to do with the port. Its just another route to get Northern St. Johns County residents in and out of the area faster. Unfortunately, the new development that will follow in the future will eventually congest it was well.
Agreed, Lake.
IF it was about the port, the idea for 9B would have just come up with the Mitsui and Hanjin announcements. We all know that this predated those by about a decade or more and was a dream of the St. Johns County people. Read the archived Times-Union articles I previously posted.
Given this and Ock's impassioned defense of JTA having multiple books of numbers and offering a lame excuse for JTA misleading the public and City Council on bus shelters, I think Ock is spending too much time with our road builders trying to get them to come over from the dark side to mass transit. This may be making him a victim of the Stockholm syndrome where a captive becomes enamoured by his captors (see the Patty Hearst case). :D
YOU BOYS ALREADY DRANK THE COOL AIDE,
"Don't build another road! yeah, yeah... and?
So don't drink the cool aide? Push hard to get the city to wake the hell up and take charge of the railroad mess we've allowed to destroy some of the beneficial fallout from the massive port expansions. You don't think Florida East Coast Ry, could handle 2,000+ more TEU'S daily? HA! Meanwhile CSX, and NS would be taking 3x that number North, West, and Southwest of town.
We wouldn't have a gravel interchange under I-295/I-95, had someone thought of the railroads before now. Lakelander, stjr, tufsu1, you boys are too easy to play, more so because I've used this same approach on this same damn road on another thread... and everybody jumped on the messenger, "Me," which was all about the benefits of the road, and nobody ripped into the real answer.
For those totally out of touch with my life living between Volcano Ruiz, and the FARC Guerrilla's, in the oxygen deprived altitudes of the high Andes, welcome to Thermia, just beyond the Klatu Nebula! My retreat in heaven.
Maybe I should bring a bottle of thin air to town with me tomorrow, Jacksonville needs the fix. It's so damn sad we live in America's leading 3RD World City, and I hate that we are so damn bass akward and cheap about our quality of life, what's the Literacy rate in town today? Colombia's is right at 91.5% male and female. Oh and by the way, when I'm not trying to shake up my home town "north" about rail, I'm having a ball with my train set in my home town "south."
Meanwhile that highway that bi-passes Nuqui, from Alto Baudo', and creeps north toward Bahia Solono, will soon be cut across the REAL jungle in Choco, completing another cutoff from Medellin to the Mar Pacifico. Gee, just like 9B aka: 795. What do we Jaxsons think will happen in Nuqui, with it's unspoiled beaches and resorts once a land connection allows the metropolitan crowds to bathe in the Pacific? Sprawl? Desegregation? Integration? Assimilation? Captivation? Right now Nuqui is untouched by modern man, with the single exception of an airport and military installation. It's one street is busy, innocent native children sell little carved trinket's, while others work in the adventure and Eco travel industry at the many little resorts. Come on down to El Cantil ( our family owns the place) and forget what electricity, cell phones and digital brain pollution is. Don't worry the staff speaks Inglis:
http://www.elcantil.com/elcantil/english/english.htm
Next, what Jacksonville should be doing! Just as loud as Orlando, HSR and Tri-Rail, maybe louder!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/FCCarareCol.jpg)
God, life is great when your having fun! 1ST WORLD THINKING!
Witness: A 1 BILLION US DOLLAR project, 750 miles in total, 75% reconstruction and 25% new construction. Easy grades, coke grade (steel making) coal, UN says reserves for 100+ years, and we'll move 15,000,000 tones per annual.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/BusColombiachiva-1.jpg)
Ock, you are surely one-of-a-kind. We luv you as your are. Don't change.
I thought being anti-9B was complementary to being pro-rail. If you want support for rail for the port, you got it. Unfortunately, we aren't the ones who can make it happen.
Are you sure you aren't inhaling some souvenirs you bought back from your beloved Columbia? ;) It may be as bad for you as the Koolaide in Guyana! What is it with these South American vices? ;D
The long history of road way proposals:
Assume new road way will bring vesting/new development.Those to gain vesting are key 'drivers' within the proposal process.
The 'public' plays reactive mode,rarely proactive or predictive role.
The role of non government Planners & Consultants extends to "public" 'workshops','visioning'.
There is no credible "news"/reporting provided to or accessable by the 'public'
Most have little idea of what I share here
"Roads are the mothers milk of development" - St.Joe Company
"We can't build our way out of congestion"- John Delaney....short lived promotion,conveniently employed during the initial love fest with enviros,and then retired.John made key comments during the FDOT Brannon/Chaffee permit application to COE/SJRWMD. The premise of the application was misleading- B/C described as "stand alone" with "no future plans" (at this time) for extension ,a blatant image.
Ock has just gone native on us! heheheLOL! He does have a point regarding this 9B situation.....I mean which could move more a road or a rail track? If I had a say in the matter, rail should be the only way to mass move shipping containers! Which is more efficient, one truck or one train! This is something that the Port people should have planned for from the beginning not after the fact! Rail would help relieve congestion on 95 and when they really start moving trucks south on it......gravel city here we come! Rail is a much smarter alternative for moving many many loads south to a hub point and then transfer from there! But that's just me!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 28, 2009, 12:21:49 AM
YOU BOYS ALREADY DRANK THE COOL AIDE,
"Don't build another road! yeah, yeah... and?
I'm not against road construction where it makes sense. As proven by the HSR dialogue on this site, you'll see that I feel the same way about rail. Invest on projects that make sense. So, if we want to spend money on roads, spend money replacing the Matthews Bridge, building a river crossing between the Shands and Buckman, extend Lone Star Road to the Southside Connector or add the missing link of Alden. These are the types of road projects that make sense to me. Outside of opening land for new development, the need for 9B to me remains highly questionable.
QuoteLakelander, stjr, tufsu1, you boys are too easy to play, more so because I've used this same approach on this same damn road on another thread... and everybody jumped on the messenger, "Me," which was all about the benefits of the road, and nobody ripped into the real answer.
I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm just saying the true primary benefit is opening more land to development. I've preached the same message as you about FEC, but in this case, I don't think this project is remotely port related.
lake...........I agree 101%........the 9A & 9B extensions are the fore runner for more development along that stretch plain and simple! The people who own the land, the road builders who will build and then the developers who will then add to the urban sprawl by building high dollar houses and the like! Both are not needed and are just a waste of taxpayer money.....we get to pay to build it, we get to pay to maintain it!
Quote from: thelakelander on October 28, 2009, 06:43:36 AM
I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm just saying the true primary benefit is opening more land to development. I've preached the same message as you about FEC, but in this case, I don't think this project is remotely port related.
Lake, you've got to smile more! WINK! Actually 9-B or uh, I-795 is linked to the port all over the place as a web search of the two will demonstrate. Perhaps it is for PR, perhaps planned, or perhaps they just figure that we are all too damn stupid to know the difference. Can't you see the articles now? "WHAT IF I-795 WAS NEVER BUILT! HA!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 28, 2009, 11:01:46 AM
Actually 9-B or uh, I-795 is linked to the port all over the place as a web search of the two will demonstrate. Perhaps it is for PR, perhaps planned, or perhaps they just figure that we are all too damn stupid to know the difference. Can't you see the articles now? "WHAT IF I-795 WAS NEVER BUILT! HA![/color]
Ock, you haven't responded to those who have pointed out 9B was conceived of by St. Johns County officials well before the current port expansions. We aren't too stupid to recognize bait and switch. We are insulted by the games public officials play with these projects to backfill with excuses for their construction.
What really burns me up about the Port expansion is that rail was not considered initially..........expansion of 9A was and the taxpayers were going to have to pay to beef up and widen the roads! Rail was not in the running to begin with and it took public outcry to get the so-called Port Authorities moving in that direction! Faced with the prospect of hundreds and hundreds of truck wearing on that stretch, it should not take a mental giant any time to wonder why rail was not the first choice for transportation of containers......I mean bulk ship and then truck from a shipping point rather than truck 380 miles plus outbound on roads my tax dollars pay to build and then maintain! The Port people had no vision, no plan and not alot of cents!
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 29, 2009, 06:49:25 AM
What really burns me up about the Port expansion is that rail was not considered initially..........expansion of 9A was and the taxpayers were going to have to pay to beef up and widen the roads!
Why shouldn't taxpayers fund infrstaructure improvements related to economic development?
and btw...you do know the port authority is a public entity right?
Well that would depend on your definition of "public entity"! If you mean a stand alone Agency that is funded for and by the public.........yea, mine and your tax dollars busy funding not only the Port operations but the salaries of all involved. Mine and your tax dollars busy funding the 9A road upgrades required to transport 100's of containers out of the Port because of no Plan from the start to use rail instead of the road! A true public entity would be self sufficient, by my standards, and they are not..........still receiving public funds to operate but the public has no accountability, which is kinda like JAA come to think on it. Their current Clark replacement was recommended by Mr Ferrin. A true "Public Entity" should be responsible to the public and you are telling me they are?
Both JTA and JPA have board meetings that are open to the public...what private company does that?
And as for the new Airport Director, he comes highly qualified from Oakland's airport....and Mr. Ferrin knew him from when he worked at Oakland's port.
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 08:20:51 PM
I'm not so sure about the Wilderness Trail extension, those are some very expensive waterfront homes in the way.
Oh wait, FDOT will just abuse eminent domain.
I don't know about you, but I think it would be incredibly difficult to get an interstate (or an interstate like highway) to abruptly end at the 2 lane Roscoe Blvd in Palm Valley. It wouldn't be possible. If it were, eminent domain would be well, imminent. Seriously if there's so much money in the budget for 9B, why not build a rail line from Wilderness Trail in Palm Valley to the FEC mainline near the Avenues Mall. Aside from the few obvious roads it would have to be bridged over (9A, Southside, 95, Phillips Hwy) there is almost a continuous stretch of land (yes even west of 9A for a mile). If FDOT wants to fix a transportation problem, they should probably start there, because the last time I drove through Nocatee it was rather empty.
Quote from: Murjax on October 30, 2009, 09:57:13 PM
Quote from: reednavy on October 27, 2009, 08:20:51 PM
I'm not so sure about the Wilderness Trail extension, those are some very expensive waterfront homes in the way.
Oh wait, FDOT will just abuse eminent domain.
I don't know about you, but I think it would be incredibly difficult to get an interstate (or an interstate like highway) to abruptly end at the 2 lane Roscoe Blvd in Palm Valley. It wouldn't be possible. If it were, eminent domain would be well, imminent. Seriously if there's so much money in the budget for 9B, why not build a rail line from Wilderness Trail in Palm Valley to the FEC mainline near the Avenues Mall. Aside from the few obvious roads it would have to be bridged over (9A, Southside, 95, Phillips Hwy) there is almost a continuous stretch of land (yes even west of 9A for a mile). If FDOT wants to fix a transportation problem, they should probably start there, because the last time I drove through Nocatee it was rather empty.
I agree, Murjax, let them build a rail system, if they built anything at all. My first preference would be for the Davis family to negotiate donating/selling their remaining lands west of the intracoastal to I-95 to the State or Feds for a state or national park. See my MJ thread on this idea at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6223.0.html .
As to the connection to Wilderness Trail, the pathway I saw, looking at the Google aerial photo/map (see link below), was bridging over Rosco to the east-west portion of a newly 4 laned Wilderness into a stub of a newly 4 laned Palm Valley Rd./SR 210 terminating into A1A. Once such a limited access east-west highway "landed" on to Wilderness, heading eastward, it could be a "local" road to A1A.
[Aerial of Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd.: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=30.186869,-81.398649&spn=0.025188,0.038409&t=h&z=15 ]
tufsu1 there is what is called an "Annual" meeting if it is publicly held, as in Stockholders! Open meeting are great but policy as well as a game plan are not taken from the public meeting. Supposedly the Board controls direction with or without input from the Public! Don't get me wrong, when I have the chance to put my two cents worth in I take the opportunity.......especially if I have a vested interest, as in money from my pocket or taxes, but I have no say in the game plan or business plan. I just get to pay for it one way or the other. Rail was not considered from the start up for the Dames Point Facility and that is a shear lack of vision or planning! 9A is just a road for developer expansion that the taxpayer gets to fund and maintain and what burns me up is within several years it will have to be rebuilt because of the heavy truck useage!
9A is a road for developer expansion, and not a bypass around the city?
And I guess the public funded and maintains the road, but never uses it?
And why would an expressway have to be rebuilt just because trucks use it...or do you mean resurfaced?
9A is a bypass around the city, when it is fully completed...........my understanding and looking at the maps leads me to believe it is the other half of 295 bypass! What is apparent is 9A was not designed for heavy truck traffic and that idea is based on the upgrades and widening being proposed. This is based on the "Container" traffic departing from Dames Point when rail should have been the Number One moving system rather than trucks but due to a lack of vision and proper planning from the Head of the Port Authority down. It does not make any monetary sense to have to build a road up and plan on having to rebuild due to heavy traffic within 3 years from being beefed up to supposedly handle said traffic! Most containers are 20' x 8' or variations there of.....weight limitations at 80 Thousand Pounds which is the truck limits for traveling on the road,except for permitted loads limited to daylight travel and with escorts. Container trucks don't have escorts but they have weight and because of that 9A will breakdown in a very short period of time...........road was not designed for those kinds of weights from the start...........we get to pay for the upgrade and the next upgrade and the next one? 9B would complete that side of the loop but at what cost?
9A is fully complete...and has been for about a year...9B has nothing to do with completing the loop!
Widening of 9A to 6 lanes has always been contemplated....that's why the Dames Point bridge was built w/ 6 lanes and the median is wide enough on the rest of the road.
Quote from: stjr on October 28, 2009, 11:47:57 PM
Ock, you haven't responded to those who have pointed out 9B was conceived of by St. Johns County officials well before the current port expansions. We aren't too stupid to recognize bait and switch. We are insulted by the games public officials play with these projects to backfill with excuses for their construction.
Sorry stjr, I've been off on other threads seeing what I could stir up... Might have been before the "Current Port Expansions," as you say. I've been here since just after WWII and damn if I can remember a single time when the Port wasn't 1. Expanding, or 2. Planning Expansion. Even that I-22 Corridor that in the 1960's was announced as a multimodal KCY-JAX Expressway/Railroad/Utilities route that would open the West to JAXPORT. Only back then I don't think we called it "Jaxport." Just as along with the Dames Point Bridge, I can think of Mayport, 20TH Street-Merril, Timaquana-University (which I think was later changed to Butler), Fleming Island-Switzerland M/L... Out of the whole batch, only one was built, today we call it the Broward. I can certainly see how the current Port Expansion with it's target being almost 100% containers, without balanced rail access, could be the start of a disaster. So even if the studies predate the current port moves, it has been linked to the port since I first heard of it. Chicken or Egg? What does it matter when your looking at 3 Million Containers? OCKLAWAHA
tufsu1 I guess you have not been out by Merrill Road anytime of late? When I first started doing work for Powertel (became Voicestream and then T Mobile) the Merrill Road area was nothing but tree's! Within 3 years the outer Perimeter was completed and linked everything together ...........Outer Perimeter has expanded to take into account additional T Mobile customers who now live in that area's.........telecom use's high power forcasting logarithms and demographics to forecast where the system needs to think about placing a tower or a system at in order to maintain system continuity. That particular area has shopping malls and condos and apartment houses from hell.............they are sprouting like mushrooms! This is why urban planning is critical before we build over our own toes..........but plan for expansion. Dames Point was not designed for Rail from the start and the thought of millions of containers traveling over that section of road is ridiculous. I have no problem paying for needed infrastructure or maintaining it..........I have a problem with unplanned commercialism utilizing public roads when the obvious option should have been rail not public roads.......rail can handle the millions of containers to a hub point.......roads create problems for the traveling public not to mention the roads themselves!