Metro Jacksonville

Elements of Urbanism: Arlington, VA

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/655714019_icjBf-M.jpg)

Metro Jacksonville explores a transit corridor in community well known for its smart growth development strategies: Arlington, VA.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-elements-of-urbanism-arlington-va

I go to DC often and Rosslyn is the place to stay.  Plenty around the area, a walk over the Key Bridge to Georgetown and easy access to anywhere in DC from the Metro.  Although traffic is usually a nightmare in Arlington and Northern Virginia on the whole, you can do just fine for yourself leaving your vehicle in the garage. 

Those unique Arlington facts seem to beat jacksonville pretty badly.  35% with a grad degree??? What's our percentage with undergrad degrees??

Somebody should take that sign about the apartments on the orange line and post it all over city hall and JTA. 

Why are there tables and chairs on the sidewalk?

-Jacksonville City Council

You almost need a graduate or professional degree to afford to live in north Arlington.  One bedroom apartments were over $1000/mo. when I lived there over a decade ago.  It's probably closer to $1500/mo. today for a 1BR, over $2000/mo. for a 2BR, for anything within walking distance of a Metro station.  Those Archstone apartments from the sign are even more.

Nice looking city, especially the pics of downtown.  Seems to be clean, upscale, well educated populace that resides in Arlington.  Jax and Arlington have very little in common, but I believe that Jax can learn quite a bit from Arlington.

Heights Unknown

Quote- In 2005, Arlington was ranked first among walkable cities in the United States by the American Podiatric Medical Association.

I would have to question this conclusion based on your pictures.  My idea of the ultimate walkable is NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco, Washington, Chicago, or other great downtowns.  Not many people on the street on what appears to be a perfect day weather-wise speaks volumes.  The aerial map also shows the lack of a grid pattern making walking one block to another appear awkward. 

This area, per your pictures, mostly comes across as an uninspired, cold, concrete infested environment with people holed up in inauspicious structures for work and living and a few token trees dropped in.  Where are their parks?  And, I didn't see any historic or old buildings either which makes it look even more devoid of anything special (is anyone listening at City Hall in Jax?!).  Also, not many storefronts visible in front of most structures.  The streets themselves, as pictured, looked built for speeding through to somewhere else, not taking in the area's amenities, whatever they may be.  Most of the architecture lacks personality and warmth and I would project that on the community.  This could be "Anywhere, USA."

I bet outside of work, most of the residents are recreating somewhere else.  They live here during the week to avoid long commutes.  The Metro is their savior although I thought I could pick out more than a few ugly parking garages lurking amongst the buildings.

I give them credit for having clean and well cared for streets and sidewalks.  We should raise our standards here.

I have visited the DC area many times, and there are some beautiful areas.  But, much of the Virginia suburbs have been overrun by a tidal wave of people flowing out of DC and were developed way too quickly to properly digest it all.  Drive out another 40 to 50 miles to see the worst in urban sprawl.

I think Silver Springs, Bethesda, and some other areas in Maryland came out better.  Maybe Alexandria in Virginia.  Vienna, as I recall, is like Arlington, full of towers built in the last 20 years.

The area is expensive because it's all high level, well paid government workers who never get laid off (hence, low unemployment).  No one is insanely rich (except the lawyer lobbyists), but no one is especially poor either.  Think of this as the "corporate headquarters" of the U.S. Government, i.e. a company town.

Not a bad place to live maybe, but not where I would chose, given a choice.  I hope Jax doesn't follow this model to the future.

Well Arlington is a suburb.  Its not even a municipality.  The area these images were taken in resembled what Emerson and Baymeadows are today, when the Metro's Orange Line was completed.  I don't the idea is that our DT or urban core neighborhoods should be designed in this manner.  However, this is a huge step up from what exists in suburban Jacksonville.   Arlington is a perfect example of a suburb that found a way to integrate high density development and transit, while preserving established single family dominated neighborhoods. 

Personally, I'd be thrilled if a Philips Highway, Beach Blvd or River City Marketplace area could look something like this a decade or two down the road, once real transit is put into place.

Btw, when I say "look like this", I'm really referring to the successful development of pedestrian and transit friendly design.  Not actual building architectural design.

Lake, give me a hundred San Marcos, 5 Points, Springfields, Avondales, Riversides, etc. instead.  No reason we can't duplicate those "town center" models instead.  Perhaps, MetroJax should do some stories on the "suburban" cities between and/or around San Francisco and San Jose for inspiration.  Like Mountain View, Los Altos, Saratoga, Los Gatos, Sausalito,  etc.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 30, 2009, 11:38:50 PM
Btw, when I say "look like this", I'm really referring to the successful development of pedestrian and transit friendly design.  Not actual building architectural design.

Yes, its walkable - they have nice clean, well maintained sidewalks.  But, where are they walking to?  The Metro and nowhere else?  And, what engagement do they experience during the walk?  Brick walls and shiny glass windows reflecting like mirrors?  It looks to me to be a half baked solution.  I think I could do better.  Put me in charge!  :D

Los Altos - incorporated in 1952.  Most growth occurred from the 50s to 80s (30 year period, but did not have to completely redevelop established sprawl).

Saratoga Springs - incorporated as a city in 1915.

Los Gatos -incorporated in 1887.  engulfed by San Jose's growth by 1950, but built out by 1980.

Sausalito - developed since the 1800s.

I think you may be missing the overall point, which is the successful integration of higher density pedestrian friendly new development around transit stations that were built in a place historically known for its cul-de-sac streets and single family residences moreso than historic structures / environments that exist in some of the established bedroom communities mentioned above.  I think a closer comparison to the places you mention is Alexandria, which will be highlighted in this series in October.  While the physical architecture could be better, the idea of densifying with mixed use development around transit stations applies to both concepts (except the older places already have decent density which is an asset they bring to the table that the Arlington environment did not).

I don't think you can duplicate a San Marco, a Riverside or Springfield "organically" in the middle of sprawling node like the intersection of Baymeadows and Philips or Philips and Emerson overnight.  Those neighborhoods are 100 years in the making.  With that said, this does not mean we can't have the type of environments you describe in areas like Durkeeville, the Eastside, Murray Hill, St. Nicholas, etc. where decent fabric is already in place.  

Quote from: stjr on September 30, 2009, 11:43:32 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 30, 2009, 11:38:50 PM
Btw, when I say "look like this", I'm really referring to the successful development of pedestrian and transit friendly design.  Not actual building architectural design.

Yes, its walkable - they have nice clean, well maintained sidewalks.  But, where are they walking to?  The Metro and nowhere else?

Its a transit corridor that has developed in the middle of preserved single family residential districts.  So the metro does draw traffic.  However, these nodes have a good deal of retail, restaurants and interior park spaces.  The spot we were in had a movie theater, underground parking, a hotel, a condo building, restaurants, an interior pedestrian promenade (linear park), a CVS, and a couple of office buildings all on the same mega block.  All of this was across the street from the courthouse metro station.  The street between this development and the metro stop was closed off for a weekend farmer's market.

So my guess is that those residents living in those established single family neighborhoods are walking and biking to the nearest commercial node (which happens to be around the metro stops) for many of their needs.  Here, depending on where you are at, you're driving a couple of miles in multiple directions for the same services.

QuoteAnd, what engagement do they experience during the walk?

In Rosslyn, its a verticle office park. However, in Courthouse and Clarendon, the engagement is retail shops, bars, grocery stores, urban central parks, shaded sidewalks in residential areas, etc.  Ballston felt more like Rosslyn.

QuoteBrick walls and shiny glass windows reflecting like mirrors?  It looks to me to be a half baked solution.  I think I could do better.  Put me in charge!  :D[/b]

Architecturally, I agree.  However, in terms of density and pedestrian friendly design at street level, I'd say the opposite.  Especially around Courthouse the Clarendon stations.

I brought up the California towns because most of what's there came well after they were founded and yet they preserved and expanded upon what they started with.  They didn't cave in to blah "suburban architecture" but rather made the area conform to what was already started.  On the other hand, it looks like modern suburban totally consumed Arlington.

Lake, what I am trying to say is that when going into an area and either (a) building it anew or (b) radically transforming it by overwhelming it with new development that changes the character of the area totally (as, I suggest, appears to be the case here in Arlington), the opportunity should be exploited to "create" town centers a la these older, proven, sustainable models.  There is nothing to say we can't continue to build today such town centers, we just need to commit to it.  They are just as viable an alternative as anything else pictured in your pictorials.  It doesn't take a 100 years to establish them, just good planning, vision, and execution.  People don't care if the town center is 1 year or 100 years old, but rather about its character and functionality.  We can create that at will if we chose to.  Many of the vibrant downtowns you have featured prove this.

If we don't build these town centers today, in 100 years people will still be saying, oh, it's not 200 years old, so it can't be done?  How to get off the treadmill turning out the Arlingtons of the world?  By changing models now!

Quote from: thelakelander on October 01, 2009, 12:12:08 AM
Its a transit corridor that has developed in the middle of preserved single family residential districts.  So the metro does draw traffic.  However, these nodes have a good deal of retail, restaurants and interior park spaces.  The spot we were in had a movie theater, underground parking, a hotel, a condo building, restaurants, an interior pedestrian promenade (linear park), a CVS, and a couple of office buildings all on the same mega block.  All of this was across the street from the courthouse metro station.  The street between this development and the metro stop was closed off for a weekend farmer's market.

So my guess is that those residents living in those established single family neighborhoods are walking and biking to the nearest commercial node (which happens to be around the metro stops) for many of their needs.  Here, depending on where you are at, you're driving a couple of miles in multiple directions for the same services.

In Rosslyn, its a verticle office park. However, in Courthouse and Clarendon, the engagement is retail shops, bars, grocery stores, urban central parks, shaded sidewalks in residential areas, etc.  Ballston felt more like Rosslyn.

Lake, you were there, I wasn't so you have the upper hand and I will take your word.  I don't think the pictures fully reflect your experience per your comments above and the pix are what I had to rely on aside from my memories last I traveled these parts.

Regardless, I think there is plenty of room for improvement and suggest, if we could, to strive for a higher standard here when given the opportunity.

Thanks for showing us all these studies as they do offer us a full menu of outcomes to select the best from.

I think well be lucky if more density is allowed in Jax's future transit corridors than what Arlington currently requires as a minimum around its stations.  I can see the average Jax resident fighting zoning density increases tooth and nail, which will limit us to nodal development still surrounded by sprawl outside of the preconsolidated city limits.  Neverthless, I do agree with you that there is always room for improvement and that we should strive for the highest standards.

Lake, I think density will be driven by demographics.  When sprawl gets as bad as the DC area here (God, help us!), closer in and "nodal" land values will become so high that they will drive development vertically.  Maryland and Virginia have much stricter planning and development regulations than we do from what I have understood (Maryland maybe more than Virginia), but, nevertheless, they have succumbed to high rise developments around their Metro stops, most of which are fully surrounded by sweeping suburban homesteads.

Even here, we have begun preparing for such possibilities, wiping out most all single family housing around the greater downtown area:  the Southbank, Brooklyn, LaVilla, southern Springfield, the Stadium area, and, going back decades, Downtown itself.  High rise living will be coming to Jax in the suburbs, its just a matter of demographics over time.

My guess is JTB at I-95, Southside Blvd, and 9-A will be the first suburban high rise places since most of this is office/commercial already or multi-family (always an easy target!).  The Avenues and St. Augustine at I-95 are candidates also.  9A and Beach, 9A and Atlantic, and Regency (it already has one high-er rise behind the mall) are other prime possibilities.  University, Emerson, and Baymeadows, each between Philips and I-95 could fall in at some point as well, Baymeadows being the first.

Interestingly, the suburban high rise office building that comes to mind is Allstate off JTB at the entrance to the exclusive Pablo Creek community!  Good thing it was there first.  The only other high rises (over 10 stories or so) in the suburbs I can recall are the apartment/condo towers on the Ortega River, in Lakewood on the St. Johns, on University near I-95, and at Phillips Mall and in Jax Beach (Pablo Towers).

Quote from: stjr on October 01, 2009, 12:53:13 AM
Lake, I think density will be driven by demographics.  When sprawl gets as bad as the DC area here (God, help us!), closer in and "nodal" land values will become so high that they will drive development vertically.  Maryland and Virginia have much stricter planning and development regulations than we do from what I have understood (Maryland maybe more than Virginia), but, nevertheless, they have succumbed to high rise developments around their Metro stops, most of which are fully surrounded by sweeping suburban homesteads.

The bold part drives the physical side of density, not general demographics.  This is what we need to address locally, especially within a 1/4 to 1/2 radius of our future transit stations.  We can physically change our make up over time by simply chaning certain requirements in our land use and zoning regulations (see Building 101 series).

QuoteEven here, we have begun preparing for such possibilities, wiping out most all single family housing around the greater downtown area:  the Southbank, Brooklyn, LaVilla, southern Springfield, the Stadium area, and, going back decades, Downtown itself.  High rise living will be coming to Jax in the suburbs, its just a matter of demographics over time.

Increasing density levels don't have to be equated with "high rises".  If zoning does not allow you to create massive oversized surface parking lots, large setbacks and encourages mixing of uses, density will increase and the development that takes place will be more pedestrian friendly, thus transit friendly.  Ideally, imo its best to have a mix of actual building styles but its more important that all development is walkable and transit friendly (see Building 101 series). 

Some responses to earlier comments.

Regarding density, the zoning for land within two blocks of Fairfax Drive or Wilson Boulevard (under which the Metro runs) is high density, while more than two blocks away is lower density.  This is why you see so many high rises around Metro stations, and either low rise apartments, townhouses, or single family homes further away.  The whole county can't go dense unless they change the zoning rules.

The photos don't show it, but there are things to do in Arlington.  Ballston Common has evolved from a low end shopping mall to more of a lifestyle center as cheap stores have given way to restaurants, a gym, a movie theater, even an ice skating rink.  Clarendon is the nightlife hub of northern Virginia, with plenty of bars, restaurants, and music venues within a block or two of each other.  There's also Clarendon Market Common, but that was built after I left so I can't comment on it.  The only real park in north Arlington is Quincy Park near the FDIC, but it's a short bike ride to Lady Bird Johnson park along the river or to the National Mall.

Rosslyn is a pretty boring place, although they almost built the new Nationals' stadium there.  Admittedly, there aren't many historic buildings in Arlington (besides Lee's house in the cemetery).  People don't move to Arlington for its charm, they move there for its convenience.  Fortunately, Georgetown and Alexandria aren't far away.  Besides, if you want charm, walkability, AND safety in the DC area, you will pay through the nose for it.

The original plan for the Metro was to have the orange line continue down the median of I-66 all the way to the District.  Someone from Arlington County convinced WMATA to run the line under the county instead.  Had this not happened, this area would look completely different.

P.S. If you want to see dull dense development, check out Crystal City.

^Good post.  Btw, I didn't even bother taking shots of Crystal City.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T1RMuoQnKo

A few years ago, I flew with a friend to DC on a 24-hour trip. We flew into Reagan, took the Metro out to Ballston, walked to our hotel room, which was a few blocks from the Metro station, and then walked to Ballston Common Mall from the hotel. A little later, we took the Metro into DC and from there took a bus to our destination in the city. And then we took the Metro back to the airport in the morning. We did all of this without having a vehicle up there, and that was the first time I was able to take a trip like that. And yes, there are certainly things to do in Ballston beyond what's covered here A good profile of the neighborhood can be found here (http://beyonddc.com/profiles/ballston.shtml)). It's not perfect, but it's better than the vast majority of suburbs I've ever spent time in.

QuoteARLINGTON, Va. â€" While many metropolitan markets around the country are enduring steep increases in vacancies in their office and retail sectors, the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor in the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington is an oasis of stability â€" and even of prosperity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/realestate/commercial/07ballston.html

Quote from: krazeeboi on October 08, 2009, 05:16:30 PM

QuoteARLINGTON, Va. â€" While many metropolitan markets around the country are enduring steep increases in vacancies in their office and retail sectors, the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor in the Northern Virginia suburbs of Washington is an oasis of stability â€" and even of prosperity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/07/realestate/commercial/07ballston.html

Good followup article.  Thanks for posting it, krazeeboi.  Of course, when you have goverment-related, especially the Federal government, as tenants, stable occupancy is all but assured:

QuoteGovernment agencies and related contractors account for 60 percent of the leased office space in the corridor, Mr. Holzheimer said.

A few more quotes of note, including ones about mass transit and the presence of higher education institutions having a supportive impact  (Interesting observation about the frequency of subway stops.  A much higher density than talked about for Jax.  Maybe we aren't being ambitious enough.) :

QuoteServed by five Metro subway stops within four miles, the corridor continues to attract new tenants, buyers and developers in the face of the deepest recession since the Great Depression.

....“We just consistently have new development in what we call urban villages,” said Terry Holzheimer, Arlington County’s director of economic development, recalling that “we were a decaying urban corridor in the 1970s.” Since then, he said, “Arlington has been nothing but consistent in terms of adding buildings over time: 20 million square feet of office space and 20,000-plus housing units over a 25-year period.”

...Arlington County’s 26 square miles were a part of the original District of Columbia, but were returned to Virginia in 1846. The transit-related development in the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor has won national recognition for smart growth that mixes offices, shops and living quarters close to subway stops. “We really worked on creating a sense of place, and on what kind of development we wanted near our Metro hubs,” said Barbara A. Favola, chairwoman of the county’s governing board.

....“The Rosslyn-Ballston corridor, with its immediate access to downtown Washington, D.C., is an ideal submarket for transit-oriented, mixed-use development,” said Brian P. Coulter, chief development officer of the JBG Companies, which has been a major developer in Rosslyn and is also active in Ballston.

While Wilson Boulevard, a main artery, helps define the corridor, the key element in its success has been the subway. Planners had wanted to place it in the median of Interstate 66, on a more northerly alignment. But Arlington officials fought to have it run underground in the corridor to spur development.

... The National Science Foundation moved to Ballston in 1993, in the vanguard of many institutions.

These include Marymount University, whose business school is across the street from Virginia Tech’s planned expanded research center.

...One Metro stop closer, Virginia Square, just blocks from Ballston, has George Mason’s Law School and School of Public Policy and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.

....Dan McCaffery, a Chicago developer, saw the corridor’s potential a decade ago when he bought land in Clarendon. Former owners had wanted to build a Home Depot, but citizens resisted.

Mr. McCaffery instead built Market Common, a mixed-use project that opened in 2001 and continues to thrive with two street-facing levels of high-end stores arranged in a horseshoe facing a long landscaped lawn, with apartments and offices above and adjacent. “It’s all self-contained,” Mr. McCaffery said. “There’s always a buzz.”

As I live in DC (Georgetown) and work in Arlington (Rosslyn,) I think I can comment and provide insight regarding this quite interesting "Learning From..." article.

QuoteIf we don't build these town centers today, in 100 years people will still be saying, oh, it's not 200 years old, so it can't be done?  How to get off the treadmill turning out the Arlingtons of the world?  By changing models now!

In the first place, what Arlington planners did was to create town centers out of sprawl. Both the Orange and the Blue lines run through areas that were essentially automobile sewers. Now each stop is a center in its own right (including the wild, "TRON"-like Crystal City.) Moreover, Arlington effectively splits the difference between the best of the 'burbs (safety, conformity, chain stores and malls) and the best of the city (transit, walk/bike/run, density) into it's current form. In the next place, if most metropolitan statistical areas got on the treadmill and turned out Arlingtons, the world would be a much better place, indeed.

QuotePeople don't move to Arlington for its charm, they move there for its convenience.  Fortunately, Georgetown and Alexandria aren't far away.  Besides, if you want charm, walkability, AND safety in the DC area, you will pay through the nose for it.

Truer words were never written. However, the savings is relative. It's quite expensive to live in Arlington, especially along the Orange Line corridor, and at the Crystal City and Pentagon City stops (both feature dense mixed-use development; the latter features a multi-story enclosed mall as well.) Is it more expensive in the safe, walkable and charming areas of the District? Absolutely, but not by much. I'd spend about $2000 a month to live in Arlington. I spend about $2200 a month in Georgetown. Not much "savings" there. People pay to live in Arlington (and Bethesda, Silver Spring, Rockville Town Center, etc) because they are desirable places to live.

QuoteYes, its walkable - they have nice clean, well maintained sidewalks.  But, where are they walking to?  The Metro and nowhere else?  And, what engagement do they experience during the walk?  Brick walls and shiny glass windows reflecting like mirrors?  It looks to me to be a half baked solution.  I think I could do better.  Put me in charge! 

They walk to a variety of shops, restaurants, grocery stores, bars and parks. As well as the Metro. The sidewalks are a safe place to walk, with actual people using them to walk. As for the architectural style of the place, in DC, where much of the building is in Roman-American drag, the modern sleekness of the Arlington neighborhoods is a nice change. The District only recently started to build postmodern buildings: a lot of it is columns and marble and "New England by the river."

Arlington's success has a great deal to do with the Metro, and in many ways, it's not a model to be followed for that reason. It sounds counterintuitive, but hear me out. The Washington Metrorail is an expensive, vanity transit system. A lot of money was (and is) spent on making the subway appealing to the middle class. From the expansive, vaulted stations to the trains themselves, the Metro is the antithesis of the stereotype of a heavy-rail transit system. Indeed, it was designed to not be like New York City's subway.

As a result, expanding and maintaining the Metro is costly, which is why, despite the Washington Metro being the 2nd most used heavy rail system in the country, there are gaps in the coverage. As an example, I either take the Georgetown Metro Connection bus or walk .75 miles to the Rosslyn Station, despite the fact that I live in a very dense neighborhood.

Metro succeeds because everyone takes it. Rich folks. Poor folks. People in between. Everyone takes it because it's a nice way to get around. It's not cheap to get this appeal, and that's why I don't think that the Arlington model is easily transferrable around the country, as most metro areas don't get the Tiffany of heavy rail transit funded. Even the buses here are generally nicer than those elsewhere.

You can see the effect that a jewel of a transit system has by comparing it to others. The Miami Metrofail, doesn't work for many reasons, not the least of which is that it's looks, smells, and drives cheap. Their "Arlingtons" around their stations feature massive parking decks, because even though people live near the Metrofail in a fake downtown, they (a) still have to drive and (b) probably would rather drive, considering the state of Miami's transit. Atlanta has a similar problem with the MARTA. If a transit system is viewed as third-class transit, and is built and funded as third-class transit, nobody will want to take it.

They take the Metro in DC because it's first-class transit, at least for an American subway system.

A great transit system to look at would be the DART light rail in Dallas. By not using heavy-rail, Dallas was able to spend more on the stations, the trains and the overall reach of the system. They have, in effect, a first-class light rail transportation network.

But Dallas, DC, Miami and Atlanta's metropolitan statistical areas differ hugely from Jacksonville's in one key difference: population. Each of them have at least 4 million more residents, which increases both the need for transit and the funding available.

I know it's a poisoned opinion here, but if I lived in Jacksonville, I'd embrace the BRT system that seems to be moving forward...but with the goal to make it a first-class transportation option. Use DART as a model here, rather than Miami, Atlanta and the unattainable goal of DC. Make those BRT stations as nice and clean as can possibly be. Make them architectural icons of design and consistency (a DC and DART trick.) Make the buses themselves be clean and comfortable. Part of the problem with any transit project in the States is woeful underfunding, which frequently results in cheap, unwanted transportation. Change the paradigm with your BRT. Create a top-drawer experience that people will want to use. If that means the best damned BRT the world has ever seen, so be it! Anyhoo...   

Another reason why the DC region model isn't easily applied involves history. While 1960-70s white flight decimated the population of the District, following the trends of basically every city in the US, the city itself wasn't divided by highways, wasn't road raged with widening projects, and didn't lose their office business to the suburbs, thanks to the government not moving their offices. This effectively means that DC doesn't have much to undo, in terms of poor urban planning of the past. It also means that Arlington, located right across the river, had a desirable location, if not a desired set of buildings, when they were laying out the Metro.

Contrast that situation with the firebombed husk of downtown Jacksonville, the highways slicing through the city, the businesses entrenched in sprawl. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Jacksonville first has to undo the damage you can even hope to become another fruit, and complain about the blandness of your variants of Arlington. You are two steps behind the place where Arlington-clones can effectively exist.

^Unfortunately, true BRT costs just as much as LRT and has limited potential in stimulating the type of transit oriented development that has taken place not only in Arlington, but also Jax sized peers like Salt Lake City, Charlotte and now Austin.

I think our answer is clear and is proven by cities like Charlotte, Little Rock and Norfolk.  While DC-like heavy rail makes no sense in Jax, rail can work in a city our size (it also worked 100 years ago) and BRT should be designed to complement it.

thelakelander, i totally agree that Jacksonville can support LRT. I think LRT is much better than BRT, and in most cases, better than heavy rail (the current Silver Line extention in DC should be light rail, IMHO.)

However, if the politics, which seem to be veering towards a BRT-based system, get gridlocked and sidetracked, then Jacksonville gets no system, or worse, a repeat of the last 60 years of "future improvements and plans" that never materialize. My point regarding the BRT moment is thus: as long as it's a top-drawer, first-class, utterly awesome, clean and beautiful system, it almost doesn't matter which system (BRT/LRT) you get. I'm suggesting that perhaps the focus needs to be on the 1st-class nature of the system, rather than the rail/bus debate.

QuoteHowever, if the politics, which seem to be veering towards a BRT-based system, get gridlocked and sidetracked, then Jacksonville gets no system, or worse, a repeat of the last 60 years of "future improvements and plans" that never materialize.

From my take the politics statewide have done a 180 from what they were five years ago.  We're past the typical bus/rail debate in Jacksonville.  We'll have both.  Now the question is how to fund and best implement them. 

QuoteMy point regarding the BRT moment is thus: as long as it's a top-drawer, first-class, utterly awesome, clean and beautiful system, it almost doesn't matter which system (BRT/LRT) you get.

This is where I differ, from a land development standpoint.  The only thing worth discussing with the rail/bus issue at this point, is understanding what you'll get with each specific mode and design.  This is where we need to accept and work with the truth on what things bring to the table.

No matter how you design these modes, they are different animals with a separate list of pros and cons.  For example, if land development is a goal, one has a well backed proven track record for stimulating transit friendly development and one does not.  If development is the major goal for certain areas of town or corridors, go with the proven mode.  Both cost too much to base things on theory, wishes and dreams.

QuoteI'm suggesting that perhaps the focus needs to be on the 1st-class nature of the system, rather than the rail/bus debate.

I agree. The development of a 1st-class "integrated" mass transit system has always been a priority of Metro Jacksonville.    A one size fits all strategy does not lead to the creation of a successful mass transit system.  So, there should be a mix of several modes all designed to best cater to the different built environments of the region that they'll serve.  From my take, this is where we're at in Jacksonville.  Now we just need the political will and financial resources to pull it off.

I will offer one piece of advice from DC: no carpeting. Whomever thought that a subway train would be made "classy" by carpets trampled by dirty feet every damned day should be shot.

QuoteNow we just need the political will and financial resources to pull it off.

You also need it to be a success, and to be planned correctly to be so. The SkyTrain probably ended any meaningful debate in Jacksonville regarding transit for years, due to its poor ridership (due in no small part to the thing not being completed.) It took Miami-Dade County nearly 20 years to overcome the taint of the MetroFail and authorize a much-needed transit plan...which is a boondoggle that has produced nothing while siphoning hundreds of million of taxpayer money...thus completing a cycle of suck, and basically ensuring another 20 years of inaction.

Whatever you all decide to implement as your integrated system, it has to work, has to work well, and has to show demonstrable results. Transit is under much greater scrutiny in this country than the personal automobile; it's why the top-tier nature of your system is so integral towards its success. 

lol, I agree.

Quote from: AaroniusLives on December 02, 2009, 11:18:43 AM
... The SkyTrain probably ended any meaningful debate in Jacksonville regarding transit for years, due to its poor ridership (due in no small part to the thing not being completed.) It took Miami-Dade County nearly 20 years to overcome the taint of the MetroFail and authorize a much-needed transit plan...which is a boondoggle that has produced nothing while siphoning hundreds of million of taxpayer money...thus completing a cycle of suck, and basically ensuring another 20 years of inaction.

Whatever you all decide to implement as your integrated system, it has to work, has to work well, and has to show demonstrable results. Transit is under much greater scrutiny in this country than the personal automobile; it's why the top-tier nature of your system is so integral towards its success. 

Aaron, this echoes my comments previously about the stigma of mass transit in Jax and is why I insist we need to kill off the dreaded $ky-high-way joke to pave the way for mass transit going forward in Jax.  And, it does need to be done first class, with quality, not the cheap, cheap, ways typifying Jax public projects.

QuoteJust across the Key Bridge in Rosslyn a new temporary urbanism space is about to be unveiled this week on the site of a stalled Central Place office tower development. The lot is a few hundred feet from the Rosslyn Metro at the corner of Wilson Blvd and Fort Myer Drive. The colorful design incorporates a mixture of landscaping and hardscaping and features tables, chairs, canopies for shade and a stage. The Rosslyn BID has plans to program events in the space over the summer.

The Arlington County officials demonstrated a commitment to those who have invested in their community by adding a vibrant temporary use to this site.

Pics: http://www.mvtriangleblog.com/?p=1552

Arlington County has topped a new list of the "Best Cities to Live in America."

Arlington received high marks for education, health and fitness, nightlife, family amenities, outdoor activities, length of commute and diversity, according to Niche.com.

"It has very high home values, very high rent costs, and very low unemployment levels," the website said. "Its citizens generally have very high education levels and very high income levels."

Arlington bested cities like Cambridge, Massachusetts and Columbia, Maryland for the top spot on the list.

"These new rankings explore 224 cities to find the best places to live in the U.S. based on crime, public schools, cost of living, job opportunities, and local amenities," said a Niche spokeswoman. "Our team of data scientists analyzed data from the U.S. Census, FBI, BLS, CDC, and other sources to calculate these rankings."

https://local.niche.com/arlington-arlington-va/