http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-28/story/jacksonville_communter_would_be_costly_but_study_shows_its_needed
Okay there are a lot of very smart people on this board which is why I enjoy coming here. Someone who is much wiser than I please explain to me why it would cost so much money to add commuter service on already existing rail with already existing infrastructure. Is it literally the cost of the trains that would be needed to provide the service?
That environmental mess is along the tiny creek South of Evergreen cemetery. Some of you might Ed Castinelli, at JTA, saying rail could NEVER be built here because of this "wetlands", then he proceeded to tell us that the bridge would be like crossing the Nile!!
Ed, what is the difference in crossing that "national wetlands" with a bus or with a dedicated rail line. besides Ed, your "Nile River" looks more like a highly polluted ditch, and the rail RofW is already there and owned by the city.
OCKLAWAHA
Get over the TU boards and post some postive comments. So far there is all negativity!
I heard that came up at the meeting today when JTA staff presented this to the board. $622million/91 miles=$6.8 million a mile. FDOT 2009 guidelines for new 4-lane urban arterial road $17 million a mile!!!!
Only +51 miles of the proposed 90 miles of rail corridor are in Duval County. So for Duval County residents the overall cost is closer to $350 million, not $622 million. Also, if phased you could chop at least another 15 miles of track off that list because there would be no need to immediately extend north of River City Marketplace (JIA) or south of the Avenues. That would drop your costs down to $250 million for a little under 37 miles of rail corridor.
This is just an example of how the costs can vary when we really begin to dig into what we need right a way and what may be needed in 30 years.
622 million for 90 miles? If we let Peyton and his geniouses get their hands on the figures, I'm sure we can get it to 1 Trillion by the time he leaves office. Anyone remember the 190 million courthouse?????
Quote from: stephendare on September 28, 2009, 04:43:55 PM
Thanks, I just used that in a follow up comment.
Quote
The cost of building a rail line, complete with stations, lights etc: $6.8 million a mile.
FDOT 2009 guidelines for new 4-lane urban arterial road $17 million a mile!!!!
So why are we still building concrete highways over more sensible rail lines?
Who makes the concrete? http://www.gateprecast.com/locations/s_jacksonville.cfm
one problem...over 80% of our roads are asphalt, not concrete!
Problem solved, Asphalt roads do not have a life span anywhere near rail, and thus concrete, with it's much longer life span is the only highway construction that one could compare.
OCKLAWAHA
Well Herb could always use more money right?! Figures can be sequed either way to reflect anyone's point but the matter is pretty basic.........need light rail and need it now! Call it trolley/Street Car or a people moving conveyance don't care.........we need to start something now not later!
Stephen, I saw your post on Jacksonville.com great work! One reader mentioned costs per passenger mile, even if you make that comparison rail comes out on top. Trains can move more people, faster than adding an additional lane to a highway. One lane can move about 2,000 cars an hour. Trains can move way more than that, all you have to do is keep adding passenger cars.
Lake, also had some good points. Notice the article mentioned JTA, Duval County wouldn't be paying for this on their own. It's got to be a joint effort. Truly, a regional system with costs shared across jurisdictional boundaries.
Quote from: fsujax on September 28, 2009, 04:35:01 PM
I heard that came up at the meeting today when JTA staff presented this to the board. $622million/91 miles=$6.8 million a mile. FDOT 2009 guidelines for new 4-lane urban arterial road $17 million a mile!!!!
I agree that the cost is less per mile, but I wonder how a projected "usership" per mile comparison would look. It might actually prove cheaper to do the roads. Any rail proponents would need to be able to counter such an arguement.
"Roads: Moving carcasses in all directions... for less per rider/mile!"
Taking environmental impact into consideration would also help compare apples and oranges.
The environmental impact of rail has to be a tiny fraction of the impact of roads.
1. The right-of-way is much smaller.
2. There is far less impermeable surface with rail so much less polluted runoff.
3. Rail does not break wildlife corridors the way highways do because the traffic in not continuous.
4. Energy consumed for building rail is less than for building highways.
5. Energy consumed per passenger mile is less for rail than for roads.
6. New Tier III locomotive diesels produce much less exhaust emissions per passenger mile than cars.
Reading through all of the posts on Jacksonville.com, it is really hard for me to believe there will ever be a commuter rail system in Jacksonville. Hopefully the people that post there are a slim minority compared to the rest of the city, but I fear they are not.
I don't think that any news site's comments (including this one) are representative of Jacksonville as a whole. I feel like the readers here generally are more educated on the issue and are more pro-rail, while most other news site readers are against it (since we already have roads). In the end, I think that most of Jacksonville is somewhere between our posters and jacksonville.com's.
Strange how Jacksonville.com changed the story's headline from "Commuter Rail is Needed" to "Commuter Rail Would Be Costly."
Quote from: KenFSU on September 29, 2009, 10:41:51 AM
Strange how Jacksonville.com changed the story's headline from "Commuter Rail is Needed" to "Commuter Rail Would Be Costly."
Nothing strange about that, the gods of Duval Street can't seem to grasp the concept that rail equals a building boom. When the facts are presented you get a dish load of George Bush... You know they ALL are running in his shadow. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on September 29, 2009, 12:09:17 PM
Thanks for your post over there Ock. Good stuff.
No sweat, might be fun to double team if any of them are up to it!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on September 29, 2009, 12:16:53 PM
There are a couple of No Tax On Principle people on the thread, but most of the posters just simply do not have the accurate facts, and I sense that they would like to know more.
There is a troll on the thread that keeps making the point that mass transit is for the blacks and decent white folk will never ride trains as a result, but I think hes not paid much mind over there.
Maybe we should post a few links to articles that explain the issue on our sites?
Good idea Stephen, but I wonder if they'll have the ability to find, click and follow the links?OCKLAWAHA
great comments you guys are posting. keep up the good work. we have to break all these negative stereotypes. I have a feeling that once the general public really catches on to what is now happening. There will be some who strongly support and others who will be just as strong against it.
You guys have won me over. Rail is something I never really considered. I hate government spending and high taxes therefore; by default I am anti rail. In a short time, merely from reading a bit of expertise I have been converted.
Ditto Gentlemen!..........now if we can just get the lights to go on within the current Administration we might be on to something!
Quote from: buckethead on September 29, 2009, 02:44:42 PM
You guys have won me over. Rail is something I never really considered. I hate government spending and high taxes therefore; by default I am anti rail. In a short time, merely from reading a bit of expertise I have been converted.
Quote from: CS Foltz on September 29, 2009, 03:14:13 PM
Ditto Gentlemen!..........now if we can just get the lights to go on within the current Administration we might be on to something!
Creosote Baptisms for the newly converted will be held in the Springfield Railroad Yard, immediately after dinner at Hola's next Tuesday. OCKLAWAHA
I have always loved trains and anywhere you visit and leave the car for a week and this site has made me an advocate about them.
Welcome to the "Baptismal Club" Jeff..............it really makes sense when you look at a 360 degree view but now the real work comes by getting the powers that be to see the light! Gonna take a hellofa effort on our part but I am willing to put my 2 cents in! All ready have E Mailed Johnny and all of the Council members....so gonna start with them since they are at my level and go from there!
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 28, 2009, 09:47:45 PM
622 million for 90 miles? If we let Peyton and his geniouses get their hands on the figures, I'm sure we can get it to 1 Trillion by the time he leaves office. Anyone remember the 190 million courthouse?????
I do and what is the final cost of the new court house going to be?
$350 million the last time I heard.
The other cost we will never be able to figure is the years wasted. This is a key project for our downtown that people where waiting on to move development. If construction had begun during the boom cycle how many of the projects proposed would have been able to get off the ground before the downturn.
Your right Jeff........can not put a price tag on the wasted years........we can on all of the other fiasco's....Ship Yard,Thoburn,Markham and so on! We need a commuter system in Jacksonville that does not rely on more concrete and asphalt! Enhance what we have and make use of it, but that just me!
My next door neighbors owned the Voodoo Lounge. They owned the building as well. It was their plan to use the building for a restaraunt/deli when the courthouse opened. The lull in action cost them more than I can tell you, including the building. They would be in an entirely different position had the project moved foreward as originally planned.
These are cruel times.