Awesome. Another 400k in consultants, with the same result, but at least they can phase it in for years.
just brilliant.
Let's parse the Times Union's account, by one of their brightest stars, Larry Hannan.
Hannan, incidentally has been all over this issue for a while now. Solid work, and a decent guy.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-26/story/jta_to_discuss_chance_of_rail_system
QuoteCommuter rail won't be coming to Jacksonville anytime soon. But a long-term plan to introduce rail to Northeast Florida will get a hearing on Monday during a meeting of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority.
The JTA hired a Pennsylvania consulting firm for a $400,000 study into the feasibility of having a rail system in Jacksonville. That study will be released at the JTA board meeting at 2 p.m. at its offices on North Myrtle Avenue.
The JTA is focusing on using the existing tracks and right-of-way of CSX, Florida East Coast Railway and Norfolk Southern. Last year, the consultant, Gannett Fleming Inc., gave an update and said it would recommend commuter rail stops as far south as St. Augustine and Green Cove Springs and as far north as Yulee.
The idea, mirrored after cities such as Houston, Charlotte and Austin, Texas, does appear to be gaining support, although the level varies.
James Boyle, JTA regional transportation planner, said the authority's public feedback has been largely positive, though some people have expressed concern over how much it will cost: Early estimates had the rail line costing $543 million to build and $40 million a year to run.
Jacksonville resident Ennis Davis, one of three men behind MetroJacksonville.com, a Web site that supports using rail in Jacksonville, said he expects the JTA to move forward. But he worries that cost will sound prohibitive.
Davis said the JTA needs to focus on a commuter rail network close to downtown because building all the way to Yulee or Green Cove Springs would be too expensive.
Davis said other cities have benefited from commuter rail, and cited Charlotte, Austin and Houston as good examples to follow.
Those cities showed that commuter rail can be popular if it connects to popular destinations and attract high ridership even in low density environments, Davis said.
The North Florida Transportation Planning Organization, which does long-range planning for the region, recently had a series of workshops where the vast majority of people expressed support for some type of commuter rail system.
"We had about 350 people participate," spokeswoman Marci Larson said, "and about 80 percent said they supported commuter rail."
Plagiarism? ;)
Perhaps some checks should be written to MJ?
Juuuust kidding. I'm sure the consultants did thier own work.
Having spent the money and seeing your input validated could prove to be a good thing if the city realizes that Team MJ is not just some hack citizen revolt group.
MJ: they do what others do, for less than half the price!
Quote from: buckethead on September 26, 2009, 03:13:55 PM
Having spent the money and seeing your input validated could prove to be a good thing if the city realizes that Team MJ is not just some hack citizen revolt group.
MJ: they do what others do, for less than half the price!
Half price hell, poor Stephendare, and Lakelander, got sucked into this a couple of years ago and I've been doing it gratis for 30 FREAKIN YEARS! If I wasn't such a damn hippie I ought to be worth a cool couple of $ Million by now, but experience has taught me, they'll beg, borrow or steal, and forget your name and phone number.
All of that just to add the FREAK postscript, I really wouldn't give a damn if they would just ACT!OCKLAWAHA
Gentlemen...........I concur! What burns my butt is the fact that MJ has been harping on the for sometime now and JTA spent 400K for an out of state firm to come to the same conclusion? Hell.......send me a check for 400K and I can plagiarism with the best of them! If they really ask nicely I might even cut them some slack on the total fee!...........not!
I have questioned the value of hiring consultants on MJ Boards in the past and was questioned for my comments. This would be another good example of what do taxpayers get for their $$$?
I believe consultants are frequently told to justify preexisting desires and they mostly just provide the file filler to back up what is being advocated for (i.e political CYA). I will say, for this money, they could hire four people for a whole year at 100K each. With the internet and access to JTA files and previous studies, most of the research info should have been quickly assembled. That must be one heck of a report - at least, if it's by the pound :D !
Given the poor experience with the $ky-high-way reports/studies/projections, etc., I long ago came around to following my own good common sense and instincts in developing thoughts as to where we need to proceed and how best to do it. Just like MJ, the way I see it, I am batting better than the paid consultants. And, it's FREE!
stjr.......your right and then some!
The whole process is driven by the hoops JTA and others must jump through to get the federal money for new starts. Either you hire an entire team of researchers, and PAY THEM LIKE PROFESSIONALS, or you sub it out. Most go the "cheap" route like JTA.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock............if 400K is cheap then I need to get a ticket on that ride! I can understand an original study but when it is just rehashed or borrowed from a previous study is a crock Ock......sorry big guy....I could not resist! I understand what your saying............quality not withstanding .....they are just stating the obvious!
CS, This is the trouble you get into when your entire City economy is based on call centers, retail, hamburgers and whats left of America's industrial might. Johnny? Here's an idea, create a new JTA study team... 10-12 people all paid $8.00 an hour... Got control Johnny? Hold her steady on the course! Damn the Torpedo's, Full Speed Ahead!
OCKLAWAHA
Anyone notice the comments on the TU? All three claim light rail won't work here. While they are flat out wrong, LRT was never mentioned in the article.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-26/story/jta_to_discuss_chance_of_rail_system
Imo, the whole thing reeks of ignorance. Just a complete lack of knowledge on the subject in general.
lake.......it is bad enough that we are busy wasting money on "One More Survey" but to rehash what has already been written and to top it off with a TU story that is somewhat slanted is flat ludicrious! The TU story has current Administration hoof prints all over it from my view and make me wonder just who and why? I mean any rail system would probably use concrete ties and Herb could really use the money so whats the deal?
let me tell you folks...$400k was VERY CHEAP for a study like that....when the Request for Proposals came out, my firm and several others looked at it and were concerned that the work involved could be almost twice that amount....so many firms didn't even submit.
I agree with those of you who think that some things seem so logical that "expensive" studies aren't necessary....but the problem is, you need data and professional analysis to back up even the most obvious theories....and if you don't spend that money properly upfront, you'll spend far more down the road.
One fine example is the 4 years and $2+ million that was just spent in Tallahassee to conclude that widening an existing road was a cheaper, more environmentally sound solution than building a whole new road....there were many people in the community (including public officials) who really thought the new road was a better solution....much of the study money and time was spent on public meetings and workshops to make sure that everyone understood the projected effects of all the potential options.
tufsu1 then I have to ask...........why was the study just a rehash of existing reports that date back over 4 years at least that I know of? If study after study comes to the same conclusion (s) and just rewords past studies, and MJ outlooks, study is of no use? New conclusions make sense but the same thing time after time seems to me to be a waste of effort! Outcome of the Pennsylvania Study was predetermined was it not? I mean that nothing new was pointed out and the same conclusions were stated once again.
CS...the study was no rehash....in fact, MetroJax started talking about commuter rail in 2006...and JTA initiated this study in 2007....and while some people could clearly see that the existing rail lines could be used, no other study identified station locations, ROW issues, potential ridership, estimated costs, etc.
And I'm sure you're also upset because it was a "Pennsylvania" study...fact is the firm's HQ are in Pennsylvania, but they have a local office here and do most of their transportation planning studies from Tampa.
How about you take the time to read the study when it comes out before criticizing it too much?
It will be an effective report that will further help in the use of trees, then it will be moved in the dust heap as we figure out how to pay for it. But it will get us all excited for a brief amount of time.
tufsu1 how many studies have taken place since 2006? All boiled down say pretty much the same thing just slanted to reflect the views of the payer for the study, right? We get the same information that a prudent person doing a little research would come to the same conclusion right? I understand all about ROW studies and ridership projections and cost feasibility studies and cost analysis and so on..........but we know that something has to be done or we will have a road block from hell that will never unlock! That does concern me since I live here too! If there were a mass transit system available............I would use it but there is not. So far we have a projected system for 2.5 Billion of our tax dollars to serve a small niche with what is labled HSR and nothing could be further from the truth. Jacksonville does not need more bus's or BRT, we need to think outside of the box and LR appears to me to fit the bill! For an intercity people moving system that operates 24/7 rain or shine I don't think bus's can beat it! Bus's should be feeder for LR and kept outside City limits to control smog and the like...........at least that's my take@
BRT is primarily JTA's baby. The community has already stated their preference. Mass transit is more than moving people from point A to point B. Its also about place making and community shaping. This is where BRT as the top local transit priority falls flat. Sure, we can use a couple of express bus lines but that should not be billed as the future backbone of a transit system serving the nation's 40th largest metropolitan area.
Btw, for those concerned about cost, its been proven multiple times also that rail can be affordably implemented if the host community is willing to get creative and go "no-frills." Also, the money in the form of property taxes coming from infill economic development will more than justify the investment.
Quote from: CS Foltz on September 28, 2009, 06:38:19 AM
tufsu1 how many studies have taken place since 2006?
Actual official studies...one!
As to your point on the $2.5 billion HSR...that has very little to do with our local trasnit system and you know it...that said, the 2035 Needs Plan for our area has about $2.5 billion worth of transit projects....what we need in this country is both intraurban
and interurban transit systems.
And as to Stephen's point, Delaney and folks did get the BJP passed....but as we've now seen, many of the cost projections were grossly underestimated...I'd rather not study things to death, but taking some time is preferable...in the case of transportation, most studies account for less than 10% of the actual project construction cost!
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 08:49:51 AM
Quote from: CS Foltz on September 28, 2009, 06:38:19 AM
tufsu1 how many studies have taken place since 2006?
Actual official studies...one!
As to your point on the $2.5 billion HSR...that has very little to do with our local transit system and you know it...that said, the 2035 Needs Plan for our area has about $2.5 billion worth of transit projects....what we need in this country is both intraurban and interurban transit systems.
And as to Stephen's point, Delaney and folks did get the BJP passed....but as we've now seen, many of the cost projections were grossly underestimated...I'd rather not study things to death, but taking some time is preferable...in the case of transportation, most studies account for less than 10% of the actual project construction cost!
tusfu1, I think Stephens point comes directly from research of our history in the library. Reading ANY account of the early electric railroads in this metro area is a pretty rapid ride. Typical scenario: Jan, Company Formed; March, Routes Granted (by the city, state, or county under franchise); April, track and line work began; Nov. shopping season, Full Operation.
We both know that can't be done today thanks in a large part to Uncle Sam, the piggy bank and environmental concerns, but like Stephen, I'd agree that it shouldn't take 10 years. OCKLAWAHA
sure Ock...and I will tell you that it takes far less time for a private company to build something than it does the public sector....but that's a result of all the safeguards put in place so as "not to waste tax payer money"
Quote"not to waste tax payer money"
Mayor Peyton, anyone listening in the Ed Ball building?
But Johnny is running the City like a business.......isn't he?
For personal gain?
Well it is somebody's gain........don't know whose......darn sure is not the publics gain!
tufsu1 .........I do not remember saying the 2.5 Billion dollars was earmarked for Jacksonville's region. That money is earmarked for the HSR Project down Orlando way.............you know the Mouseville feeder line! Granted I have not read the Pennsylvania Study yet, but when it becomes available ...I look forward to it! I do think that 400K is an over priced figure since I think that most of the information is readily available with just a simple research engine. ROW issues are pretty cut and dried since your using exsiting ROW, thats already documented and your looking at feasibility of expansion. Cost analysis is something seperate since that has to be done from scratch but overall..............I do think that is high!
you are entitled to your opinion....but I'm pretty sure the consutant didn't make much profit off this job!
Quote....but I'm pretty sure the consutant didn't make much profit off this job!
Charity work by consultants? Free milk everyone!