http://www.youtube.com/v/5NSsj4a6v5U
Why is that even being held in Pittsburgh?
Quote from: stephendare on September 25, 2009, 06:52:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/dK2BRiGX6JQ
Do you see nothing out of place here?
Those guys aren't military.
Three different uniforms, two aged, and the driver is wearing brown, scuffed boots while one soldier is sporting what seem to be Doc Martins.
It looks staged.
What were they protesting? Damn! Sure looks strangely familiar to the old Hippie.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 25, 2009, 08:08:58 PM
What were they protesting? Damn! Sure looks strangely familiar to the old Hippie.
OCKLAWAHA
They were protesting the G20 summit or capitalism or some such thing.
I happen to share a measure of disdain for those at the summit, but this looks like a oscar nomination attempt.
If the "abductors" were in black riot gear, or even wearing the men in black suits, it might be more believable.
Quote from: stephendare on September 25, 2009, 08:21:40 PM
well whatever happened with the fatigues, there is no reason to have deployed tear gas or beating the couple
Looks like you're correct on the uni's. You mention "beatings" which I did not see, I never saw a baton raised, but they did seem to force them to the ground.
That poor guy was trying to get the really smart girl out of the way of the stormtroopers, but she was determined to go all "Tienamen Square" and stand her ground. Was she even a protester?
As afr as the tear gas, most of that crowd appeared to be students. I can see nothing they did to deserve being assaulted. That is not to say that nothing happened.
I fear the stormtroopers would disagree, as well as the bankers at the summit.
So would a judge. Our opinion holds little sway.
You are right about bloodshed had they tried these tactics at the "tax/heathcare/racist lunatics who dare to criticize "Obama" protest. There would have been hell to pay from the righties. These folks need to get a clue about G8, G20 and such. It is our freedom, wealth and future at stake.
They use public assembly permitting laws, and will always have a leg to stand on.
One would think that a progressive such as Obama would have this public opression stopped.
Or are these protesters actually causing destruction and mayhem?
Likely the truth lies somwhere in the middle, and depends largely on your perspective.
In most cases, the truth lies in the middle.
Wow. New World Order. Beast Kingdom. Mark of the Beast. One World Government. It's all almost here. Wonder what the new world will really be like. We'll all sport microchips and won't be able to eat, buy or sell without them. No privacy, they'll know what you're thinking, where you're going, and certainly who you are without ever meeting you. Think I'm crazy? Wait a year or two.
Heights Unknown
I didn't see anyone get "beaten" in the first video. Looks like a bunch of kids wanted to "watch" the riot got stuck on a staircase and got a dose of the gas used on the street. Of course the Police are below them on the street. And of course the Police are clearing the exposed stairways and upper balconies. Ever been hit on the head with a beer bottle or a rock? When the protesters start destroying private property, then the Pittsburg Police apparently felt like they needed to clear them out.
The second video is standard riot line. The couple is warned repeatedly, until finally an apprehension team moves through to arrest them, using what looks like standard tactics. Couple beaten? Hardly.
The third video...I have no idea. It looks staged to me as well. The military has no arrest authority. And the tactics used look like no tactics at all, just acting. No cuffs? No weapons? No protective gear? These videos are a joke.
Quote from: stephendare on September 26, 2009, 11:22:32 AM
These people did nothing worse, but you think its ok to treat them this way?
Quote
Civil liberties groups: Police overreacted at G-20
By MICHAEL RUBINKAM
PITTSBURGH (AP) - Police used all the nonlethal tools at their disposal to thwart protesters at the Group of 20 summit this week, firing bean bags, hurling canisters of smoke and pepper spray, using flash-bang grenades and batons and deploying a high-tech sound-blasting device meant to push back crowds.
It was all a bit much for civil liberties groups and protesters.
They decried what they called a heavy-handed and unwarranted police response, saying riot officers focused on largely peaceful, if unsanctioned, demonstrations when they should have been paying more attention to small groups of vandals that smashed windows of city businesses.
"It's not just intimidation, it's disruption and in some cases outright prevention of peaceful protesters being able to get their message out," said Witold "Vic" Walczak, legal director of the ACLU of Pennsylvania. "In a week when we need freedom of speech more than ever, free speech died in Pittsburgh this week."
He added that "the deployment of police seems to be more geared toward suppressing lawful demonstrations than actually preventing crime."
Hundreds of riot police broke up an impromptu gathering Thursday night in Schenley Plaza near the University of Pittsburgh campus, where large numbers of university students mingled with smaller groups of protesters, including anarchists.
The plaza is a quarter-mile from the building where world leaders were assembled, but the dignitaries were gone by the time police declared the gathering illegal and fired canisters of pepper spray and smoke.
Legal observers at the gathering saw police surrounding, chasing and arresting students who weren't involved in the protest, said Paige Cram, spokeswoman for the National Lawyers Guild, a liberal legal-aid group. She called the show of force "an ominous spectacle."
Franklyn Smith, 58, a mental health case manager who was protesting at Schenley Plaza, said police tackled him.
"He threw me to the ground. He kept smashing my face into the ground. Then about two or three other cops came over. They jumped on me," said Smith, who was released from the city jail around 7 a.m. Friday and went straight to the ER for treatment of a badly bruised face.
A video posted Friday on YouTube shows a group of Pitt students briefly trapped on the outdoor stairwell of a campus building, evidently exposed to gaseous pepper spray and unable to move because riot police were blocking the bottom and top of the stairs. The students had been standing on a second-floor balcony, observing the clash between police and protesters on the street below.
Around the same time, a few blocks away, windows were smashed at some 10 businesses. Police made 42 arrests near the university, but it wasn't clear if they caught any of the vandals.
Experts say that anarchists successfully deployed a tactic in Pittsburgh that they have often used at other protests, leading a large group of people toward police, then slipping out of the crowd to commit mayhem elsewhere.
University of Pittsburgh spokesman John Fedele said police had a difficult task Thursday night because a small group of people bent on causing destruction sought cover in the larger crowd of Pitt students.
There are two sides to the story. I agree that the students were mistreated. I can see the position the police were put in as well. Somehow the anarchists or whatever they are seem to escape culpability.
"notnow. Is it the cop training? Don't you see how this is not the way a democracy works? You are still mad that gun toting, kenya hating people got accurately counted in washington."
StephenDare!, this little tirade reveals far more about your biased mind set than that of others. None of these ad hominem arguments that you so quickly refer to makes any kind of case in the dispute. The young people in the first video were not beaten at all which shows your thread title (and this happens quite often) to be incorrect and just inflammatory. "Democracy" is not accomplished by destroying property. To call the various anarchy groups that practice protesting these types of government functions "democracy" is laughable on its face. Even they admit that they do not favor "democracy". What was videotaped were some inexperienced young people who apparently thought that they could observe a riot like it was a sporting event. They were not the targets of any police action and simply stood above the area where gas was used in a riot situation. The instigators and rioters were the same age and dressed the same as these young people, thus it takes some time for Officers to ensure that they are not letting violent people through their lines. (I am attempting to explain this reasonably, and not throw insults or ad hominem attacks.) As for the protest in Washington DC on 9/12 that you refer to, I am not "mad" in any way, but your tone indicates some frustration on your part. (gun toting, Kenya hating? Really?) My "cop training" tells me that you should not let events outside of you control affect you so badly.
These people did nothing worse, but you think its ok to treat them this way?
They were not mistreated, and the video does not show any mistreatment, does it? I didn't see any arrest made on that stairway, did you? I didn't see anyone beaten on that stairway, did you? As for the DC protest (which has absolutely nothing to do with this), no one was arested there either because there was no one getting hurt and no property damage. ( Hmmm, whether it was 60k or 800k that IS pretty remarkable, isn't it?)
And seriously? Its not ok to gas kids where they live because its standard operating procedure. The safety of the police is not more important than the safety of the people in the community.
These young people didn't live in that building as the young man says in the video itself. They certainly don't live on a "stairwell". These people were not "gassed" and only ingested gas because of their choice to hover above a riot. The safety of the people who live in this community is what the Police were ensuring as the majority of the students in the area were not participating in this activity. And the safety of the Officers must also be maintained, don't you agree? If this "riot" occured on your street, and property was being damaged, the procedures here would be the same:
1. Police arrive and establish a perimeter to contain the problem.
2. Police make several announcements for residents to stay in their homes and for others to clear the streets.
3. Police ensure that those wanting to leave the area have an organized exit and do not congregate elsewhere in the area.
4. Police move the perimeter to push resistant rioters out of the area. Active resister's are arrested and transported out of the area.
Its the same. If a gang of thugs decided to secure an area in this manner. they would be prosecuted with a separate crime.
It is not the same, have you run into a "group of thugs" lately? They do not use less lethal force or arrest. They will just beat the crap out of you or kill you. Please don't make such silly comparisons, it is a waste of my time to read such drivel. One might think that using such a deceptive title and fallacious arguments that you were not being honest in your participation here.
Funny. I thought that I made reasonable arguments and I attempted to explain what I believed to be the tactics and procedures that the Officers were using. It is obvious that YOU have a problem with the "Cops". I expected more thoughtfulness.
I do agree that someone is "spinning" here, but it is not me.
You do not seem to have a very good understanding of:
1. The U. S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights
2. The First Amendment, specifically and the case law surrounding it
3. Fascism
4. My politics
5. Police discipline
When a "protest" degenerates into a "riot" and property is destroyed or lives are threatened, then the Police are expected to act. Other persons besides those involved in the incident, residents, property owners, etc., have rights as well. The streets do not belong to you either, they belong to all of us and we have civilized rules on our behavior on them, and Police to enforce those rules. If "kids" want to complain to (my? there you go again StephenDare! Inflammatory language) "one world" G20 leaders they can peacefully protest, which has been going on all week in Pittsburgh. Your emotional response indicates that you may need to pull back and take a few breaths on this one.
Quote from: heights unknown on September 26, 2009, 02:41:35 AM
Wow. New World Order. Beast Kingdom. Mark of the Beast. One World Government. It's all almost here. Wonder what the new world will really be like. We'll all sport microchips and won't be able to eat, buy or sell without them. No privacy, they'll know what you're thinking, where you're going, and certainly who you are without ever meeting you. Think I'm crazy? Wait a year or two.
Heights Unknown
That's okay Heights, I'm right there with you... Just as crazy? Maybe Have you read the books The Bible Code, and Bible Code II? Wow! All we can do is ride it out and see what happens. If we roll through 2012 untouched, then I might agree this planet has more time on the clock, but so many voices, disconnected from the Bible or any other source, all calling for the same year? Weird.
Ever think about the Bible prophecy's of, as you said, not being able to buy, sell, trade, without your ID chip. Nothing "evil" about a little chip, great idea, no theft, no robbery's, no forgery's, universal, international, and apparently straight out of hell for control. Forget it, I'll starve somewhere South of Leticia, Colombia.
The END IS NEAR, don't be caught dead without your program! OCKLAWAHA
There is no such announcement on the official website. Could you guide me to the announcement and who made it? The video shows very little. The tag of the vehicle is not exposed. I don't see any handcuffs or weapons on the uniformed men. The tactics displayed are not those of any trained Police Officer. Why would these guys perform such an arrest and the next video show uniformed Police in what appears to be the same area performing exactly as I would expect them to? If these are LEO's, they are not identified as such and the procedures used would seem to be quite difficult to justify in court.
Quotemany of them just students that were unaware there was even a protest going on.
Oh sure... ::)
Quoteheavily armed psychotics to encircle and engage the American people.
:D :D
What is the history of protestors at previous G20 summits? Mr Obama's need for security at the summit in his own country was handled effectively and relatively peaceably. The protesters could have been just as effective with a sit in... yet decided to test security. Looks like non lethal methods of riot control worked very effectively.
To claim the students had no idea a protest was going on is silly. ALLLLLL of Pittsburgh is well aware of it. To claim law enforcement is psychotic is overly dramatic. The article is hyperbole pure and simple...
Anyone who was alive during Kent State would be HORRIFIED. Kent State changed our world FOREVER.
“Falsehood is cowardice, the truth courage.†- H. Ballou
Time will tell. My view is that the agenda that you are advancing through exaggeration is easily seen through by the public.
The "view" that you are projecting is one of promoting a false view of the legal authorities of the United States. At best exaggeration and at worst outright lying is completely acceptable to most of those involved in this activity.
I find it laughable that you would presume to lecture me about my oath. You have no credibility.
Your opinion of the Police in this country is well known. Luckily, you belong to a very small minority. The tactics employed by those of you who participate in the constant criticism of anything "Christian", "traditional", "American Institution", or "law enforcement" ensures that you will ALWAYS be a small minority.
Well Stephen if you read what you just posted, it ensures the right to "peaceful" protest.
The video you included shows police in a defensive posture, and some hoodies thowing objects an rolling dumpsters downhill in their direction, they do it from the security of the syudent rans, which are primarily just observers. I'm just not seeing any atrocities by the police here. I do see photographers seemingly antagonizing police and protesters alike.
Quote from: stephendare on September 27, 2009, 10:52:12 PM
They were peacefully assembling when the police robot came in and ordered everyone to leave or be subject to pain inducement.
Sounds kinda like our system of taxing income.
As usual, you want to go personal StephenDare!. And upon my first read of your post, I am tempted to follow suit. However, I have promised others on this board that I would attempt to control these exchanges, as it is apparent that you cannot.
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
my opinion of the police has barely been stated, actually. My opinion of your opinion of the police should be obvious. You think its ok to murder citizens on the basis of police safety.
"\The fallacy of your argument here is obvious. Another ad hominem attack by StephenDare!. I am sure that no one is surprised. Do you really think insulting others convinces anyone of your arguments?
You also apparently think that cops founded the country, and were unaware that there were no municipal police until the 1840s, and even then they weren't particularly widespread.
Your continuing reference to your internet search on "municipal police" is just....childish?....sad? And of course, don't miss an opportunity to insult me. I like to think that I am pretty well educated on the history of this country and of course, again, the ad hominem attack. Nice.
I for one, and sick of hearing you cite 'standard procedure' over ever police killing, even when you do not know the details. This, my friend, leaves you with no credibility.
Well, since I am the one between us who actually knows police procedure, then it is only logical that I inform you when you make incorrect assumptions. Often, I DO know the details, although I cannot post about them here in many cases. The truth here is that it just angers you that FACTS do not support your outlandish arguments, thus you attack the source of those facts.
Just as your original claims that this was a hoax, ended up not being credible, and for the same reason.
My statements about the first videos and the inflammatory titles stands. No one was "gassed" or "beaten". My statement on the "snatching" video was that it looked fake, and I still believe that. I also stated that for Law Enforcement to operate in camo without identification , no handcuffs, no visible weapons, and no protective equipment is VERY unusual and I stand by those statements. I have still not seen an "official" statement that the video is Law Enforcement, only the news report of such. If the men in the video are LEO's, then they are going to have a bad day in court. Ask any Cop. I cannot tell you how little your opinion of my credibility means to me.
This country was a revolutionary, radical democracy my friend. It was founded by liberals, for liberals, and it was liberals that made it possible for your fraternal order of police to be able to bargain like a union.
Interesting view. You are quite fascinated by the FOP, aren't you?
I am the traditional american. The point of view you represent is not.
Traditional Americans capitalize America ;D.
I do not confuse murdering abortion doctors, or shooting up church congregations with Christianity. Apparently, you do.
Again with the attacks. Of course, I have never made any such statements, why do you do this? StephenDare!...credibility does NOT equal making stuff up. (Isn't that what you constantly accuse me of?)
I find it laughable that you took an oath based on a document that you dont apparently believe in, if we are going to get right down to it.
Just for clarification, have you read the Constitution lately? Do you remember the freedom of assembly part of the Bill of Rights?
If you don't like this country, or its laws and traditions, and you have no respect for our Constitution, why stay here?
(This is the part where I must control myself.) StephenDare!, I have sworn two oaths on the U. S. Constitution. One was as a much younger man upon joining the military forces of the U.S. I spent many years serving my country in the military and I believe it to be an honor to be allowed to do so. I once again swore an oath upon becoming a Law Enforcement Officer, a calling that few have the opportunity to answer and again, I have been honored to be able to do so and to serve with some of the finest men and women that I have known in my life. In doing these things I have made many sacrafices that I won't bore those present here with, but I will say that I certainly have learned that insults from a certain segment of our society mean that I am doing my job. Rest assured that I have not only read the U. S. Constitution many times (It is framed in my home), I have put in hours of classroom study on the document, I have defended it, I have put everything that I have ever had and everything that I will ever have on the line for the principles in the document. One of us stands for the laws and traditions of our country StephenDare!, and it isn't you. I think that I would like to stay here if you don't mind? I think I've earned my citizenship, and my right to my opinion. I know that you will continue to attack me personally, because of the weakness of your arguments and the fallacy of your principles. That is your right. But you reveal more of yourself with every word and I grow more and more confident that perhaps some one is actually gaining insight through these exchanges. That some readers begin to understand what it is that you are really trying to accomplish. And that you and your ilk will become less and less of a blip on our political landscape. That is as impersonal as I can write this response. I hope that I have not personally insulted you. I hope that you rethink your assumptions. I hope that you become a useful part of our American society. But I am prepared to fight your current ideas and thinking because they are anathema to the country and weaken it before our enemies.
Feel free to not defend your feelings to me. You do not control the discussion on this board and I will continue to post as I see fit. Your agenda is clear. I disagree that we have equally "earned" anything. Your "well paid and compensated" comment just makes it more clear that you have no understanding of what military service or Law Enforcement service encompasses.
Pretending? I have walked the walk, you are the pretender. Man.
Have a good night, StephenDare!
Quote from: stephendare on September 27, 2009, 10:52:12 PM
They were peacefully assembling when the police robot came in and ordered everyone to leave or be subject to pain inducement.
I'm telling you boys and girls, as a historian, that's the federal way... If someone took an objective view of telling our history, he or she would immediately be labeled a "Pinko Commie Fag" or some other discusting label. Look at the damn record.
(http://www.promethea.org/Misc_Compositions/FightingFutureWar/firebombedTokyo.jpg)
Tokyo Firebombing may have incinerated 200-300,000 persons, mostly women and children, meanwhile the nearby Mitsubishi Aircraft plant was churning out 500 planes a month.
In Colonial times:
Giving diseased blankets to Native Americans (germ warfare)
Wars of extermination on all native Americans.
Invading and stealing Florida from Spain, then making nice to CYA.
War with Mexico? My Great, Great uncle was Winfield Scott, all Americans that fought for Mexico were lined up along a wall and murdered...Visit Mexico City, see the monument!
War of Yankee Aggression? Lincoln, Sherman, Sheridan, Wells, Grant, and Custer, could have all hung as war criminals, as some of the FEDERAL PRISONERS suggested after the Andersonville trials.
Wounded Knee? We don't allow unarmed dancing in a canyon under penalty of DEATH.
Black Kettle? Sign the treaty, fly the flag, bring in your neighbors to the great father in DC and be massacred to the last baby in arms.
Spanish American War? The Maine appears to have exploded from the inside out! Boiler anyone?
Colombian Civil War! All of the Americas have a right to self determination, so lets steal Panama and build a canal... All of the America's except: Florida, Georgia, Virginia, Alabama etc...
WWI? What more could the Germans have done to tell our people that we were breaking international law and sending weapons to the UK? Hell they even took out full page ads DONT SAIL!
League of Nations/Naval Arms Limitations. What was with the ratios of Japan, UK and US naval forces set at 3 - 5 - 5? Japan had been our WWI Allies.
WWII? Japan didn't quit because of an atomic bomb, rather the inhumane fire bombing of the major cities that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in CIVILIAN TARGETS!
The others are a little too fresh on my mind to go there right now. Hey, I'm as RED, WHITE, AND BLUE, as the rest of you... But open your eyes, it's a different view from across the pond.
We have a great nation, but it's the whistle blowers that keep power hungry megalomaniacs at bay, and nothing says that someday we might not hatch our own Hitler, or Stalin. OCKLAWAHA
The Obama administration reveals its true colors gassing, beating, and suppressing the free speech rights of these children. This display of power from the Obama administration should send chills down the spine of every american. This madness cannot continue. Sure it was OK when Obama's brownshirt thugs were beating on anarchists... but now he has turned them loose on innocent children... who is next? Families? Teabaggers? Christians? Urban revivalists?
Congress should investigate the excesses of force pertetrated on innocent americans by the Obama administration...
While funny, it is quite a stretch to blame President Obama for the type of thing that has been going on for decades.
The actual protesters use these tactics to gain news coverage at every "G whatever" summit. The protests are not unfounded. The people really running the joint are unelected and global. They do have an agenda, and it does include centralized control of the global monetary system. None of this fits into the debate within this thread, but is central in the big picture.
Obama is not in charge of the forces at work here. This is really more of an outsourcing of security.
The biggest point I'd make is that the police assumed a much more defensive posture than some here are representing. Students were caught in the middle, by design, and some got to breathe some non-lethal tear gas, while others got their sense of freedom and security taken from them.
WWSD!D?
QuoteWhile funny, it is quite a stretch to blame President Obama for the type of thing that has been going on for decades.
And that is the point. :)
THE PEOPLE MUST STAY DILIGENT. This anarchist bull shit can cut in two directions, and can well up from the most innocent intentions.
Germany: The Nazi's came up through a massive national police force, the SA, then the SS.
Japan: The military, mostly army, stacked the Imperial Diet and moved their own generals into power positions.
Russia: A few well studied leaders and enough common support (The People) to destroy a country for 60+ years.
HIPPIES: There were some Commie type leaders that put the ring in the nose of some mob protests, but though we were labeled as dangerous, most of us didn't give a crap... Bottom line is we cannot afford to allow creeping federal control take away our freedoms.
JEFFERSON AIRPLANE LYRICS
We can be together
Ah you and me
We should be together
We are all outlaws in the eyes of america
In order to survive we steal cheat lie forge fred hide and deal
We are obscene lawless hideous dangerous dirty violent and young
But we should be together
Come on all you people standing around
Our lifes too fine to let it die and
We can be together
All your private property is
Target for your enemy
And your enemy is
We
We are forces of chaos and anarchy
Everything they say we are we are
And we are very
Proud of ourselves
Up against the wall
Up against the wall fred (motherfucker)
Tear down the walls
Tear down the walls
Come on now together
Get it on together
Everybody together
We should be together
We should be together my friends
We can be together
We will be
We must begin here and now
A new continent of earth and fire
Come on now gettin higher and higher
Tear down the walls
Tear down the walls
Tear down the walls
Wont you try
OCKLAWAHA
The point of my partisan hackiness was to illustrate how silly that kind of partisan hackiness is. The same type of lingo has been used innumerable times by yourself and others to attack Bush or Cheney or the military or various other things when the real issue is something else. If we stick with the real issue without the incendiary partisan hackiness we might find more to agree about than be defensive about. :)
Where were the CNN reporters and reporterette's randomly picking out some of the hoodies and asking them to explain their positions?
Like every g* protest, these "anarchists" show up and ruin everything for anyone that had a legit message. It's always the same bored suburban white kids who get boners for the chance to wear black masks and break stuff. I blame the g* planning groups just as much as the anarchists- remember when they had the G8 in Sea Island? It was extremely quiet compared to other summits because it was in a remote, very secure location. There were protests but they were well-behaved for the most part. Why can't they all be in locations like that? Instead, we get urban business owners who suffer major property damage and theft because a bunch of kids want to pretend to be a badass.
I'd like to toss some of these kids into Sudan so they could learn first hand how awesome and liberating a total sense of lawlessness is.