http://jacksonville.com/entertainment/dining_out/2009-09-25/story/dining_notes_avondale_mainstay_sterlings_to_transition_to_
Richard, We humbly await your magic and professionalism again. Hopefully you can pull up your neighbors to at least the edible range to match their already ludicrous pricing here in Avondale and Riverside.
Frank, Please do all of us a favor and stay in Chicago.
I sense venom. Please expound.
5points - Stay in 5 points, I don't need you at the Avondale restaurants, and keep you happy attitude there as well.
"...fish will be flown in from around the world, from places such as Japan, New Zealand and Hawaii."
Sigh. Jacksonville has some lovely sea food. Why fly stuff in from elsewhere? Flash-frozen sea food tastes the same at hig-end restaurants everywhere.
You'll pay steeply in Charleston and New York for Amberjack caught right off of our coast, but you can hardly buy it here in town. We have real snapper and grouper (fish often mislabeled), firm local shrimp, and Apalachacola oysters.
I'm happy to have a new restaurant, but it seems like more the same for JAX. For a place that's advertising that it will be "green," how green really is a place that showcases flown-in food? Another missed opportunity for Jax to cultivate some local identity and pride in local ingredients.
nice point, JBD
your an idiot, JBD, the business model reality is providing supply to meet demand, and there is no demand for fish from the dirty St Johns river or the limited fish selections available in the North Atlantic. You know nothing about the restaurant business and should keep quiet.
Even if you don't agree with what JBD said, that response is a little much.
Way to make an entrance, cybertique. I agree with JBD mostly, but you do barely have a point. I too cannot see how a restaurant could be considered green if it flew its ingredients in from Alaska and elsewhere. In LEED certification, all materials have to come from within 500 miles of the project site. I'm sure the green bit is more for marketing than actual environmental stewardship purposes.
On the other hand, the supply and demand aspect is a large factor, I'm sure, in their menu selection. It may just not be feasible to support a restaurant of this scale with all local products. So, total lack of etiquette and courtesy aside, thanks for sharing your inputs, Cybertique.
Quote from: Lucasjj on October 12, 2009, 02:24:46 PM
Even if you don't agree with what JBD said, that response is a little much.
How True!
Not to nitpick you, Captain, but LEED was never mentioned in the article. Only the most over used marketing word of the decade "green" was used. They're planning to recycle glass and plastic.... just as all restaraunts should be doing anyways, IMO.
QuoteLike his restaurant by the same name in Memphis, which will remain open, Bluefish will be a "green" restaurant. He plans to only buy sustainable seafood and will recycle glass and plastic.
Still, we should hold out to give the place a fair shot before tearing it apart.
And a warm welcome to you cybertique. Thanks in advance for ensuring all future posts are thought out and cordial.
Starting at Kaldi's (I think), together and then separately, Richard and Liz Grenamyer were just about the first people to bring world class food to Jacksonville. There was a time here that to get anything but good seafood, you had to belong to one of the private clubs to get a fine meal in Jacksonville. Times have changed thanks to some pioneers.
Welcome back, Richard!
Jason, my reference to LEED was more of a for instance, not about any aspect of the restaurant itself. I was trying to bolster JaxByDefault's point that local products are a large part of being green. While recycling glass and plastic is important, if that glass or plastic were shipped from Alaska, a great deal of damage has already been done.
Cybertique:
I travel. I eat. I spend a good deal of my discretionary income on restaurants. Other than that, you are correct in that I have no specialized knowledge of the restaurant business other than the kitchens in which I worked to offset the cost of college and graduate school. I can understand how sourcing fish from a national distributor is easier and perhaps more cost effective. I can understand a restaurant needing to feature a salmon dish to meet customer expectations and having to procure wild salmon from the Pacific or North Sea regions.
I prefer menus that feature fresh, local ingredients, employing solid cooking principles with disiplined creativity to bring out the best in those ingredients. Jacksonville has a shortage of such places and I'm longing for a change.
I bristle at greenwashing an unsustainable menu focus with (very admirable) green construction or insinuating that our local waters are unfishable and that Atlantic fish is subpar. Fishing is a vital local industry that we should be doing more to support. Jacksonville customers sould be better about recognizing and demanding good local seafood--and creating greater market demand. Restaurants should push and challenge local palates to embrace local seafood --I'd bite on sophisticated local-focused specials.
While salmon may need to be flown in to bolster a menu, serving imported shrimp is inexcusable -- not saying the new Avondale place will do this, but many, many restaurants here serve imported shrimp. If the local Cobia, Amberjack, Grouper, Cusk, Red Snapper, etc. is good enough for Michelin star chefs in Manhattan, I'm guessing it could be a hit here too. It is sad to sit in an upscale restaurant in another city and hear a server announce that evening's special is domestic, east coast, amberjack caught off the waters of Jacksonville, FL, (actually happened) while knowing it's pretty rare at home.
Good luck. Looking forward to a new place in JAX.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 12, 2009, 03:30:57 PM
Jason, my reference to LEED was more of a for instance, not about any aspect of the restaurant itself. I was trying to bolster JaxByDefault's point that local products are a large part of being green. While recycling glass and plastic is important, if that glass or plastic were shipped from Alaska, a great deal of damage has already been done.
I gotcha and I agree 100%.
Quote from: JaxByDefault on October 12, 2009, 04:08:41 PMFishing is a vital local industry that we should be doing more to support.
While I'm not going to touch Cybertique's post a couple back (other than to say that as a moderator, the person attacks will NOT be condoned whatsoever on the board), JBD is abslutely right that we need to support the local fishing industry. This is something we should take pride in that comes from our local waters. Jacksonville isn't known for much outside of the city, and seafood could be one of those things. Let's embrace a local industry, and in order to do it, we need to start with the restaraunts in our own backyard.
110 Seafood Restaurants in NE Florida according the Yellow Pages. Sure some are Capt. D's, but some are Clark's, Bonefish grill, and these are JUST the restaurants that call themselves "seafood", where-as you can go to West Inn for special fish tacos with local fish, but not a seafood restaurant, or go to the Brick for their famous locally caught Grouper, again, not a seafood restaurant.
Believe me, the local fishing industry is supported locally, and you don't have to go to "seafood" restaurant to find the support either.
Yes, i hear you all loud and clear, and perhaps the "idiot" remark was a bit much, just let me add that the additional cost associated with making a restaurant "green" is substantial and thats why there are so few certified green esablishments in business. It would be much easier and less expensive to just pass on it and throw out the glass, plastic and paper in the dumpster and not recycle, you have to spend extra to have this stuff picked up. Additionally, there is additional cost in purchasing the green products to use in service. Why are you all demonizing this place for becoming one of the few "green" restaurants in NE Fl? How much glass and plastic does Biscottis or the Brick dispose in their dumpsers on any given weekend? The business environment is tough and expenses are high and they are willing to cut some out of the profit margin to give back in the form of recycling and use of green products. As to "flying" fish in, all restaurants buy some products that require importing and it is necessary to provide the dining public a menu they will patronize. While promoting "local" products seems like a good idea in theory, the reality is quite different, pricing among vendors varies and many times you find yourself buying from lists that include imported products based on cost and quality.
I wouldn't say that we're "demonizing" the restaurant, I am personally very excited for it to open, but I think many of us are tired of the green movement and green-washing. Recycling should be a given, but I know that's tough to do in a busy restaurant.
I think much of the opposition to your viewpoint was caused by the way in which you attacked JBD, especially because it was your first post. You have to build up a rep before you can post ridiculous statements, just ask Fayeforcure.....or me.
Quote from: cybertique on October 13, 2009, 11:31:52 AMWhy are you all demonizing this place for becoming one of the few "green" restaurants in NE Fl? How much glass and plastic does Biscottis or the Brick dispose in their dumpsers on any given weekend?
I'm not demonizing the place at all. I hope it does well, because one more good restaraunt in the area will help everyone out (including the community).
Keep in mind however that while the fact that the place is green is nice, I don't choose my dinner locations based on footprint, but on food and service.
Understood. I do appreciate the thoughtful and educated replys placed on this site's various posts and enjoy reading them.
Welcome cybertique. I have always wondered why this is... anyone care to educate me?
QuoteIt would be much easier and less expensive to just pass on it and throw out the glass, plastic and paper in the dumpster and not recycle, you have to spend extra to have this stuff picked up.
I have asked more than a few bar owners why they do not recycle the thousands of beer bottles and cans they throw out weekly and they all tell me the city charges to recycle from businesses. Why are residential recycling programs free yet businesses are charged? Huge amounts of landfill space could be saved if the city collected ALL recyclables rather than just some...
It costs more to recycle glass and plastic now that it costs to create new virgin plastic or glass. There is no money in recycling of these items, until the government sets prices. If the city charges commercial restaurants for recycling, and every penny counts, sure they are just going to throw in the dumpster.
The City and State need a better recycling program for non-residential establishments. Until this happens, throwing the items out will be status quo. Just imagine if you had a value on a glass or plastic bottle, kids, junkies, everyone would be looking for bottles and cans for recycling.
I'd rather have a recycling program that teaches us how to re-use than to spend $900 billion to give 13 million people insurance that most don't even want.
QuoteIt costs more to recycle glass and plastic now that it costs to create new virgin plastic or glass.
While this may be true ( I dont know) What is not figured into this cost is the cost of buying and preparing a new landfill because we filled the old landfill with recyclabe material.
QuoteWhat happened in the last quarter of 2008 was unprecedented by all means. The LDPE (low-density polyethylene) scrap prices, which were prevailing at $900 per metric ton in the beginning of September of 2008, went to $280 by the middle of October of 2008. That was a drop of 60 percent to 70 percent in pricing in just three weeks.
The cost of a landfill is figured into our trash pickup, but with Waste Management suing the City over its contract who really knows?
We started recycling cardboard, glass, and plastic at Orsay over the summer. With regard to the city charging for recycling pickup from businesses, the city doesn't offer it at all - we use a private company, and yes, we obviously have to pay for it. Bistro Aix and Biscottis started using the same service earlier this year as well (they were both actually on board ahead of us!)
Thanks for the info Brian... FYI... will be at Orsay tonight for dinner... :)
A 5 cent or 10 cent deposit on all can and bottles would go a long way towards cleaning up our roadsides and getting this stuff recycled.
Advanced Disposal, here in town, will recycle glass, plastic, cardboard, etc. So will Southland, I am pretty sure, but again, it costs money to have a good heart. Until the City or State subsidizes the recycling of these items, people will throw them away.
Advanced waits to get truckloads worth of the material, to make it worthwhile to send out for the recycling plants. We're talking 40,000 pound containers of stuff. So everyone looks at the benefit of recycling and you have to have a LOT of this stuff to begin to break-even on it. Hence the reason there are so few companies locally offering any sort of recycling.
Frank Gallo will indeed nest in Chicago- just for rambling info he in fact is reported to be remaining as a partner.
Better to stay in Chicago bless his heart.........to go to Sterlings meant one had to be subjected to a personal table side visit with Frank.....a long one that could stretch through three courses.Could this be a reason for the spooky visual;a Friday night with street side parking full and Biscottis,Brick,Cas bah et al packed.....and Sterlings empty??
Good to have an alternative to Biscottis....every since Barbara's husband had a hand in the speculative sale of Ortega Boat Yard...now the horrific "Ortega Landing" it is been hard to patronize.Now that is shopping locally!!In fact,we no longer do.
Indeed Ortega Boat Yard was run down and the owner wanted out....with the emergence of the "Landing" spectacle there were alternative local buyers for Ortega but they could not compete with the wild speculative pricing. The sale was allowed on selfish grounds.It gives Biscottis food 'bad energy'.
You've got to give Ortega Landing "credit". They are trying real hard for the Miami vibe. For some strange reason.
Quote from: north miami on October 15, 2009, 11:43:26 AM
Good to have an alternative to Biscottis....every since Barbara's husband had a hand in the speculative sale of Ortega Boat Yard...now the horrific "Ortega Landing" it is been hard to patronize.Now that is shopping locally!!In fact,we no longer do.
Indeed Ortega Boat Yard was run down and the owner wanted out....with the emergence of the "Landing" spectacle there were alternative local buyers for Ortega but they could not compete with the wild speculative pricing. The sale was allowed on selfish grounds.It gives Biscottis food 'bad energy'.
i'm not trying to be a jerk... but truly, what are you talking about?
Are you saying you don't care for Biscotti's? Or something else? ... not sure I am gathering your point accurately....
Biscotti's food has bad energy? ???
I'm lost too Steph.
Quote from: north miami on October 15, 2009, 11:43:26 AM
Frank Gallo will indeed nest in Chicago- just for rambling info he in fact is reported to be remaining as a partner....
can't you read StephElf? they said it was babbling info, full disclaimer right there, at the begining of the post. :P
Quote from: David on October 16, 2009, 02:23:29 PM
Quote from: north miami on October 15, 2009, 11:43:26 AM
Frank Gallo will indeed nest in Chicago- just for rambling info he in fact is reported to be remaining as a partner....
can't you read StephElf? they said it was babbling info, full disclaimer right there, at the begining of the post. :P
LMAO.
I should correct an earlier post for somene who has some inaccurate info, Frank has sold the restaurant, not the building or parking lot, he is currently assisting with the construction and improvements to the building. His primary residence will be in Chicago. Other than a few catered events for charity, he will have no involvement whatsoever in the Blue Fish. It is a shame that some people are avoiding Biscottis as mentioned, it is a great establishment, and I think has many good years left in it.
Good article in the Times Union that discusses some of the menu items and prices of the items, and the overall economy of the restaurant business. Still plan to open for Thanksgiving.
As a Jacksonville Marina Mile member and area advocate (www.jacksonvillemarinamile.com) I host customers from around the region and country.Their visits to the Avondale business district always results in compliments.It will be fun to ad this this expanded offering.For me too!