Florida school officials in prayer case could get jail time
Story Highlights
Two Florida school administrators accused of violating consent order on prayer
If convicted, two could be sentenced to up to six months in prison and fined
ACLU sued district on behalf of students who alleged prayer held at school events
Parties agreed to consent decree in January; ACLU not part of criminal proceedings
(CNN) -- Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.
Frank Lay, principal of Pace High School in Pace, Florida, and school athletic director Robert Freeman are accused of violating a consent decree banning employees of Santa Rosa County schools from endorsing religion.
They face a nonjury trial before U.S. District Judge M.C. Rodgers. If convicted, they could be sentenced to up to six months in prison and fined, subject to sentencing guidelines.
Defense attorneys have said it is it outrageous Lay and Freeman are facing prosecution for "a simple prayer." But the American Civil Liberties Union, whose lawsuit led to the consent decree, maintains students have a right to be free from administrators who foist their personal religious beliefs on them.
However, an ACLU representative said the organization "never suggested" people should go to jail for violating the decree, and the organization is not involved in the criminal proceedings.
The ACLU filed suit last year against the school district in northwest Florida on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement.
Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9 under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events," the ACLU said.
Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
But on January 28, "Lay asked Freeman to offer a prayer of blessing during a school-day luncheon for the dedication of a new field house at Pace High School," according to court documents.
"Freeman complied with the request and offered the prayer at the event. It appears this was a school-sponsored event attended by students, faculty and community members."
Attorneys from Liberty Counsel, a conservative legal group helping defend Lay and Freeman, have said that attendees included booster club members and other adults who helped the field house project -- all "consenting adults."
Three U.S. lawmakers who are members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus have written a letter in support of the two school administrators, saying that "many of America's Founding Fathers were resolute in their faiths, and the impact of such is evident in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and many of their writings."
The letter from Reps. J. Randy Forbes, R-Virginia; Mike McIntyre, D-North Carolina; and Jeff Miller, R-Florida, said the congressmen were writing as members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus.
"The tradition of offering prayer in America has become so interwoven into our nation's spiritual heritage that to charge someone criminally for engaging in such a practice would astonish the men who founded this country on religious liberty," the lawmakers wrote.
All AboutAmerican Civil Liberties Union • Florida
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/17/florida.school.prayer/
This is apalling. We can curse in front of our children, molest children, fill our children's head with evolution and other mind altering thoughts and wonder why they hate us and murder each other, ban the10 commandments out of public view and from our children and schools, murder innocent people and babies, and even hold satanic rituals and animal sacrifices to satan with no problem; but yet when someone wants to pray in public, to the God that made this nation great, it's all wrong and we want to behead them or send them to Prison.
And everyone wonders why the economy is in shambles, our military power has waned, our finances are in a mess, the weather is whacky in a way that it appears its turning on us, increase in other natural disasters, and the latest report is that the U.S. is no longer the world's number one power...at all.
Keep dissing God and we all, in the late great United States, will see what's next. I'm not talking about religion because we know what that's about...that's why we have most of the problems around the world, because of religion.
Just my opinion. Erase this if you like but it is the truth.
Heights Unknown
Incredible... Thanks Faye! Did you post because you agree or disagree?
Whatever happened to a moment of silence where you could pray to your own deity(s)?
As much as I believe in people having the right to believe how they want to, I also think that no one religion is above the rest with regards to rights.
Its a simple solution:
Prayer for Christians
Prayer for Muslims
Prayer for Jews
Sing a mantra for the Hindus
Allow monks and a Buddha statue for the Buddhists.
Allow time for Taoist rituals.
Setup a shrine for the Shintos.
Allow an altar for the Santeria worshipers
Create a ritual circle for the Pagans
Allow a smoking area for the Rastafarians.
Seems simple enough to do before lunch and athletic activities.
Jail time over prayer? Wow, the end is near.
Quote from: jandar on September 18, 2009, 09:08:41 AM
Whatever happened to a moment of silence where you could pray to your own deity(s)?
As much as I believe in people having the right to believe how they want to, I also think that no one religion is above the rest with regards to rights.
Its a simple solution:
Prayer for Christians
Prayer for Muslims
Prayer for Jews
Sing a mantra for the Hindus
Allow monks and a Buddha statue for the Buddhists.
Allow time for Taoist rituals.
Setup a shrine for the Shintos.
Allow an altar for the Santeria worshipers
Create a ritual circle for the Pagans
Allow a smoking area for the Rastafarians.
Seems simple enough to do before lunch and athletic activities.
I prefer the moment of silence, in place of any religious ritual. At public expense on public time we shouldn't favor any religion over another, nor impose religion on the 24 million non-religious Americans.
No doubt... throw em in jail!
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 18, 2009, 10:45:03 AM
No doubt... throw em in jail!
Hmmm, pretty radical, I agree.
QuoteThe ACLU filed suit last year against the school district in northwest Florida on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement.
Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9 under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events," the ACLU said.
But on January 28, "Lay asked Freeman to offer a prayer of blessing during a school-day luncheon for the dedication of a new field house at Pace High School," according to court documents.
I wonder however, how you would feel if some islamic blessing had been used during public time and at public expense?
In a civil society vs a litigious one... People would be silent, bow there head respectfully... and pray or not to whoever they want.
When growing up... my family never said "Grace" prior to meals... I have always felt a bit uncomfortable while a guest at someones house while this ritual is performed.
The proper way to cope... is to silently "pray" to whatever diety strikes you fancy at the time.
Or.... we can just throw the miscreants in jail... ;)
Well this certainly speaks to the validity of the initial lawsuit that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events" considering they couldn't even help themselves after a court order barring it.
Great e-mail I received. Checked it out. It happened. Bravo to this lady.
QuoteThis is a statement that was read over the PA s ystem at the football game at Roane County High School , Kingston , Tennessee , by school Principal, Jody McLeod < /div>
"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country."
Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it "an alternate life style," and if someone is offended, that's OK.
I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex.." If someone is offended, that's OK.
I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing an unborn baby as a "viable! means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem...
I can designate a school day as "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess "Mother Earth" and call it "ecology.."
I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depicts people with strong, traditional Christian convictions as "simple minded" and "ignorant" and call it "enlightenment.."
However, if anyone uses this facility to honor GOD and to ask HIM to Bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated..
This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical.
Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except GOD and HIS Commandments.
Nevertheless , as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical... I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.
For this reason, I shall "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying at this time.
"However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank GOD and ask HIM, in the name of JESUS, to Bless this event, please feel free to do s o . As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."
One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another and began to pray.
They prayed in the stands.. They prayed in the team huddles. They prayed at the concession stand and they prayed in the Announcer's Box!
The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America- the Seat of "Justice" in the "one nation, under GOD."
Somehow, Kings ton , Tennessee Remembered what so many have forgotten. We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion. Praise GOD that HIS remnant remains!
QuoteI wonder however, how you would feel if some islamic blessing had been used during public time and at public expense?
Just go up to Dearborn and other parts of Michigan and you will hear the Islamic call to prayer blasting from loudspeakers five time a day. Up there in Imam Conyers territory.
QuoteWell this certainly speaks to the validity of the initial lawsuit that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events" considering they couldn't even help themselves after a court order barring it.
Yea, we'll legislate and enforce those savage, primal urges out of them.
How can prayer for someone's well being and safety be a negative? I'm a Christian and can easily find it in my heart to respect others and their choices. I am also not likely alone in saying that if someone wanted to pray for me, no matter what language or religion, I'm happy to accept it. We certainly need all the prayer we can get! Even if someone is athiest or agnostic, why fret over someone sying a prayer for your well being? Does it harm you? Does it make you look bad?
Just chalk it up as someone doing something they feel will help you, wether you believe it or not.
Jail is a bit harsh....but i think an example should be made.
I guess that's what happens when you do exactly what a judge tells you not to do.
I dont think religion was being promoted... nor was anyone forced to pray. The percieved slight.. was er... slight. The thirty seconds of prayer could be ignored. The suit is silly.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 18, 2009, 02:34:25 PM
I dont think religion was being promoted... nor was anyone forced to pray. The percieved slight.. was er... slight. The thirty seconds of prayer could be ignored. The suit is silly.
I guess you would expect people in the example of Michigan to ignore their Muslim principal's possible call to face Mecca for prayer? That thirty seconds should also be allowed under your argument?
We are not primarily a Muslim country. At least last time I checked. I wouldn't expect to go to the middle east and thrust my version of Christianity upon everyone.
Geez. If I ended up doing six months in jail for praying? I would consider myself blessed for not being a coward! The courage of these school officials to follow their beliefs is inspiring whether or not you agree with their belief. Most people would cave.
In God I Trust.
Quote from: stephendare on September 18, 2009, 09:16:27 PM
Quote from: DavidWilliams on September 18, 2009, 08:54:41 PM
We are not primarily a Muslim country. At least last time I checked. I wouldn't expect to go to the middle east and thrust my version of Christianity upon everyone.
really?
so just here then.
Culture is culture be it here or a distant land. And, no not thrusting it here either. But, thanks for asking.
Criminal prosecution in this case is out of line. Civil penalties would accomplish the governments wishes. This is an area where political correctness has gotten out of hand. Legislation is required to restore common sense.
Quote from: NotNow on September 18, 2009, 09:38:05 PM
Criminal prosecution in this case is out of line. Civil penalties would accomplish the governments wishes. This is an area where political correctness has gotten out of hand. Legislation is required to restore common sense.
Absolutely agree.
Violating a judges order can be criminal or civil. Failure to appear refers to failure of a criminal defendant to appear before the court. In cases such as this, it is more common to call the parties back into court, and use financial penalties to obtain compliance. Of course, jail is not unheard of, but I don't think it serves the purpose in this case and only inflames the subject.
QuoteBut the American Civil Liberties Union, whose lawsuit led to the consent decree, maintains students have a right to be free from administrators who foist their personal religious beliefs on them.
However, an ACLU representative said the organization "never suggested" people should go to jail for violating the decree, and the organization is not involved in the criminal proceedings.
The ACLU filed suit last year against the school district in northwest Florida on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement.
Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9 under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events," the ACLU said.
So FAYE? Does this mean if your elected we can sleep tight knowing for certain you won't endorse a Justice that is pro-prayer? pro-Christian? or pro-life?
What needs to happen in this case is a good old fashioned protest. Pace is a big High School, and quite modern. Kind of funny because we almost bought a house there and we toured this very school. Pace is to Pensacola what Flemming Island is to Jacksonville. A few pro common sense activists circulate a PRAYER FOR PACE HS! notice and have all 1,200 kids and 3,000 parents, teachers and other staff show up with PRAYER FOR PACE HS! Tee shirts, banners, signs, and get on a bull horn and lead everyone in prayer. I'd make it a point to have my local AME Choir singing, have the local orthodox and reformed Rabi's, the Moslem cleric, The Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, a Hindu and Buddhist Priest, A Wiccan, Catholic fathers and Bishops, Orthodox too, Russian and Greek, I'd even get Tirari, the civilized headhunter to "Pray the Boa". I'd call NBC, CBS, ABC, FOC, CNN, and have every lawyer the ACLU has, along with every darn cop in Santa Rosa County. Go ahead, bust us, bust all 4,200 of us and find a place to stick us... Cause tomorrow, I'd be right back on school grounds.
Now you may not consider this a "Christian" attitude, but then neither was Ezekiel's when he mocked the prophets of Baal. It sure got his point across.
Freedom of religion, no matter what size, type, flavor, place, color or LOCATION is in our founding documents. But since "Scopes" and then "Bitch Murray" we have been trying to remove all trace of a higher being from the influence of our children. In direct correlation with the removal of the Bible and Prayer from school, the level of crimes, murders, robbery's, violence, arson, gang membership, has risen concurrently.
Trust me Friend Heights! These folks won't be finished until it becomes illegal to speak His Name in public. Just how far from the bottom of the human sewer have we sunk? Well, there is a story from the battle of Midway that sort of illustrates our new found righteousness. One of the officers was a devout Christian, and as such he took a lot of joking from his shipmates. But always happy, smiling, he was a hard worker and everyone wanted him on their team. As the battle raged around him, many of the men were praying, horribly injured men were begging him to come and pray over them. The captain allowed it, and he became an unofficial chaplain until his ship slipped beneath the waves... You see he was in the JAPANESE NAVY, not ours. God knows the day is coming soon when he could be arrested on one of our ships for saying "Jesus."
If comments from folks like BT, Heights, and Myself, make you angry, and you want to give us a smart reply tell me what other word in the English language I could use that would get you equally angry? I'd suggest you may have to have some SOUL REPAIR done. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: NotNow on September 18, 2009, 10:03:40 PM
Violating a judges order can be criminal or civil. Failure to appear refers to failure of a criminal defendant to appear before the court. In cases such as this, it is more common to call the parties back into court, and use financial penalties to obtain compliance. Of course, jail is not unheard of, but I don't think it serves the purpose in this case and only inflames the subject.
It sounds like they are following this process. The article simply stated what the maximum penalty is. We don't know what the judge decided yet.
Yes, the incarceration is just a possible penalty. Hopefully, the Judge in the case has some sense. I still think that we are going to have to rethink the subject. Freedom of religion doesn't mean erasing eveery visage of God. Just another penalty of surrendering our common sense to lawyers and congress.
The fact is, most of the people in this country instinctively and factually realize the current clown show over public professions of faith is due to an insidious bastardization of a constitutional principle. This principle has been distorted in so many ways as to be unrecognizable from the original intent and has allowed a tiny majority to force their intolerance on the public. I can think of no better situation for civil disobedience and I hope it continues and escalates.
Well said, jaxnative.
School is a place of learning.
Public schools are just that, public.
You want your kids to have religion in schools, send them to private schools. You have a right to have religion in your kids lives. I have the right to have my kid learn what I want him to, including any religion.
My tax money will not be spent on preaching any religion.
No one was preaching... one guy said a prayer blessing the new building.
Yeah, AFTER a court order advising him not to.
As we all know, our public schools have gotten SO much better over the last few decades since the voluntary prayer ban. ;)
Correlation does not equal causation.
Quote from: jaxnative on September 19, 2009, 02:37:36 PM
The fact is, most of the people in this country instinctively and factually realize the current clown show over public professions of faith is due to an insidious bastardization of a constitutional principle. This principle has been distorted in so many ways as to be unrecognizable from the original intent and has allowed a tiny majority to force their intolerance on the public. I can think of no better situation for civil disobedience and I hope it continues and escalates.
A definition and example of "forced" intolerance, please?
Quote from: jandar on September 19, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
School is a place of learning.
Public schools are just that, public.
You want your kids to have religion in schools, send them to private schools. You have a right to have religion in your kids lives. I have the right to have my kid learn what I want him to, including any religion.
My tax money will not be spent on preaching any religion.
Jandar, I think your missing the point as to why this is a bad direction for the country to go in. So you want to be the only one that chooses what your child learns of religion? Wow, I feel very sorry for your children, because in YOUR school system, there will be no history.
Incredible stories from kamikaze pilots to that of Vlad the Impaler. Your kids won't have a clue about The Shroud Turin, the Holy Grail, or ever be sent on a scientific mission into the jungles to learn the writings of the Mayan, Inca or Aztecs. Native American Studies would have to be curtailed as a Holy Man, guided his personal village. The Crusades will be removed from the book because the church believed it should occupy the Holy Land in order to rush Christs return. What return? Who is this "Christ Guy?" Don't worry Jandar, your kids will be blissfully ignorant. Advanced mathematics will have to be removed from all schools as they were developed by the followers of Islam, in fact so will design and architecture because of the artful use of both in building the great mosques and shrines of the middle east. Your babies will never know about the Temple Mount, the river Jordan, or the mines of Solomon. Perhaps we can revise the textbooks so there is no confusion over 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, "Tell the Athenians and Jandar that we are coming..." The temples of Diana, goddess of fertility will be wiped out and your kids may never have sex because the the Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana, written some 1,500 years BC, was a religious document. Your unique children that live without history, math, architecture, physics, archeology, sex, faith or charity, will be liberated from all religious material through their lives, they won't be able to track the progress however, as the calender came from the church too. OCKLAWAHA
Hey guys, this is Ocks' daughter...again. and i have to disagree with removing religion from schools. it should be offered as an elective, and not just on Christianity, but on ALL religions. being one of the few young ones on this site, and having just graduated High School 4 years ago, i can tell you, FOR SURE. ALL THE SCHOOLS ARE TEACHING ATHIESIM. ONLY atheism. and THIS infuriated me. i don't care about the big bang theory. its a load of crap in my opinion. yeah, sure, maybe there was a big bang, but SOMEBODY had to make it happen. and in my opinion that is GOD. and getting an F in class because i try to explain my stand on the point is absolutely ridiculous. how DARE the schools tell you what you can and cannot believe. how DARE you say we cannot pray? are you saying we HAVE to pay a ridiculous tuition for a private school just because all the free schools should be atheist? absolutely not. religion should be in ALL schools. All religions. All grades. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a strong belief in my faith, others should have a chance to explain themselves as well.
-Trilby (ocks' daughter)
Quote from: stephendare on September 19, 2009, 09:11:45 PM
silly argument ock.
religion is unprovable, and all the time kids need to spend learning provable facts would be taken up with this nonsense.
let the parents and tax free religious institutions do this.
Yes, it is silly isn't it Stephen? I could be saying a prayer to 7-11 ("thanking heaven") but that would get me busted in school. Would the press still be free if MJ couldn't mention God? Church? Religion? Of course not, but those liberty infringements would bring the American people to the point of open rebellion. Imagine the government telling us that we can't publish anything religious, based on the fact that some people don't want to be FORCED to read those forbidden words. Silly argument maybe, but typical of the nonsense that comes from the far left.
At least I'll PRAISE THE LORD for one thing, Faye, came out and identified herself with those who would forbid God from attending a football game. Good reason to make sure she doesn't get enough votes to attend to our business. OCKLAWAHA
there is no atheism course in the curriculum...that's because its in every class, syllabus, and the school "rules". but however, it they mention one "godly" word, its an outrage? please tell me how THAT makes sense? and I'm incredibly curious to how that would make him beat a women to death from the bible?
Ocks' Daughter.
Every child will be exposed to religion, like it or not. It is a part of our society. It is an age old cause of struggle, pain, and glory. Just like they will be exposed to atheism, illegal drugs, and clothing more appropriate for prostitutes than children. I am not opposed to the policy of no "official" religion. However, when our system gets to the point of removing religion from its studies and community, then our system is wrong. There is room in our schools for all religions, including atheism. Children should not ignore religion, but should be exposed to the major religions as well as "atheism" and its forms. A child does not "learn" religion in public school, but they will learn how adults deal with each others values and beliefs.
Yep, my opinion. Just as your posts are your opinion. I'm not sure what you mean by "When athiests are free to hold anti god meetings at christian high schools, then christian demagogues should be allowed to recruit on the public dime." What "Christian" high schools do you mean? If you mean private Christian schools, then no, you can't. Private schools can be religious, and in reference to your references, they can set rules for behavior as well. As for the "exposure clause", I simply mean that children should be exposed to all views and what they mean. I know it is a touchy subject, but ignoring it is not the answer.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2009, 09:10:02 PM
Quote from: jandar on September 19, 2009, 04:45:54 PM
School is a place of learning.
Public schools are just that, public.
You want your kids to have religion in schools, send them to private schools. You have a right to have religion in your kids lives. I have the right to have my kid learn what I want him to, including any religion.
My tax money will not be spent on preaching any religion.
Jandar, I think your missing the point as to why this is a bad direction for the country to go in. So you want to be the only one that chooses what your child learns of religion? Wow, I feel very sorry for your children, because in YOUR school system, there will be no history.
Incredible stories from kamikaze pilots to that of Vlad the Impaler. Your kids won't have a clue about The Shroud Turin, the Holy Grail, or ever be sent on a scientific mission into the jungles to learn the writings of the Mayan, Inca or Aztecs. Native American Studies would have to be curtailed as a Holy Man, guided his personal village. The Crusades will be removed from the book because the church believed it should occupy the Holy Land in order to rush Christs return. What return? Who is this "Christ Guy?" Don't worry Jandar, your kids will be blissfully ignorant. Advanced mathematics will have to be removed from all schools as they were developed by the followers of Islam, in fact so will design and architecture because of the artful use of both in building the great mosques and shrines of the middle east. Your babies will never know about the Temple Mount, the river Jordan, or the mines of Solomon. Perhaps we can revise the textbooks so there is no confusion over 300 Spartans at Thermopylae, "Tell the Athenians and Jandar that we are coming..." The temples of Diana, goddess of fertility will be wiped out and your kids may never have sex because the the Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana, written some 1,500 years BC, was a religious document. Your unique children that live without history, math, architecture, physics, archeology, sex, faith or charity, will be liberated from all religious material through their lives, they won't be able to track the progress however, as the calender came from the church too.
OCKLAWAHA
Teaching of religion is ok, teaching religion is not.
Prove to me God exists. Faith is not proof.
Im willing to stick to my claims about God being an arrogant drunkard that pissed on a water planet and sparked life.
On a serious note, I've seen way too many things to make me question the things I was taught about there being a god. I will give my son a basis in religion and allow him to make his own choice.
I will teach my son to not just rely on what others have taught him, but what he learns on his own as well.
Quote from: jandar on September 20, 2009, 12:30:43 AM
On a serious note, I've seen way too many things to make me question the things I was taught about there being a god. I will give my son a basis in religion and allow him to make his own choice.
"God being an arrogant drunkard that pissed on a water planet and sparked life" Sounds like he'll get a real balanced and level headed view, one that will allow him an educated opinion. QuoteI will teach my son to not just rely on what others have taught him, but what he learns on his own as well.
This is truth, I feel the same way, next time you visit the rattle snake demonstration at Silver Springs, go on and stick your hand in the cage. You might even be able to prove that he means us no harm. hee hee!
Who else can I piss off tonight? OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 20, 2009, 01:43:43 AM
Quote from: jandar on September 20, 2009, 12:30:43 AM
On a serious note, I've seen way too many things to make me question the things I was taught about there being a god. I will give my son a basis in religion and allow him to make his own choice.
"God being an arrogant drunkard that pissed on a water planet and sparked life" Sounds like he'll get a real balanced and level headed view, one that will allow him an educated opinion.
QuoteI will teach my son to not just rely on what others have taught him, but what he learns on his own as well.
This is truth, I feel the same way, next time you visit the rattle snake demonstration at Silver Springs, go on and stick your hand in the cage. You might even be able to prove that he means us no harm. hee hee!
Who else can I piss off tonight?
OCKLAWAHA
My son will get a much more balanced view of life then he would in a christian school, and if he was strictly raised by religious parents. Unlike most hardcore religious people of any faith, I can grant people the right to practice their faith while I practice my science.
Christ's Mass as the birth of Jesus on December 25th? Not so likely. Shepherds didn't tend their flock of sheep (as is mentioned in the bible) in the middle of the night in December. Pope Julius I declared that Jesus's birth be celebrated on Dec 25th to help convert the millions of pagans who had roots worhiping pagan holidays during that time.
Same with Easter. You might want to learn the history of Greeks worshipping Attis.
Hell, most religious observances are based on another religion's rites. It was an easy way to control the conquered people by saying "Hey, see our gods are really your gods with different names".
I have handled live rattlesnakes, same with moccasins and just about every other kind of Florida native snake.
If I were to stick my hand in a box full of snakes, I know that there is a huge chance that I would get bit, but if I made the snakes cold, I could get away with it due to my knowledge of science.
And people wonder why non or even just slightly religious people get pissed at Christians, Muslims, or any other faith trying to shove their fallacies down our throats.
Quotetrying to shove their fallacies down our throats.
Nobody "shoved" anything.
Quote from: stephendare on September 20, 2009, 12:54:21 PM
Well Ock, I think your post kind of proves Jandar's point.
you obviously think you know how to raise Jandar's children better than he can, and that his religious instruction will not be up to your christian standards.
This is why I don't want zorn having to deal with this bs.
OMG, I'm agreeing with Stephen on this one.
Crap!
:)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 18, 2009, 11:30:44 PM
So FAYE? Does this mean if your elected we can sleep tight knowing for certain you won't endorse a Justice that is pro-prayer? pro-Christian? or pro-life?
In direct correlation with the removal of the Bible and Prayer from school, the level of crimes, murders, robbery's, violence, arson, gang membership, has risen concurrently.
I am loathe to respond, since your posts are generally over-the-top,...........including pictorials and such ;)
But if there is any correlations to be made, it most likely is reversed to what you are saying:
QuoteYou can believe in God and not religion. Also, I haven't a clue what the religious mean when they talk about a breakdown in morals. Morality is subjective. However, if we want to use a concrete term crime, specifically violent crime; there is a direct correlation between crime and religion. The more religious an area, the more violence. This is just crime and violence in general. Or course, there is specifically religious violence. Countries that are very low in religious belief are also very low in violence. The best examples are the Scandinavian countries. I live in the Pacific Northwest, undoubtedly the least religious area of the United States; also the area with the least violent crimes. Contrast that with the bible belt. It almost defies reason that areas with high worship attendance would also be areas of high crime, but statistics say otherwise.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-silent-minority_b_173354.html
And while we are at it,......the bible belt is also higher in divorce rates and abortions.
Now a lot of that could be due to higher poverty rates, but it just goes to show that being religious is no guarantee of morality. In turn it is wrong to assume that non-religious folks don't know right from wrong,......or that they don't have morals.