There's a shocker. Manufactured charges of verbal assault (the verbal flew around from both sides) -- and out flies the hankie and the smelling salts.
I've got news for you...Springfield has much bigger problems than the likes of a small non-profit thrift store which just wants to help a few men turn their lives around.
We are not the problem, just an easy target.
to quote from today's letter:
"In response to your letter of August 27, 2009, the SPAR building is not a public building. You are not welcome in or around it."
Say Lake, when is the next SAMBA meeting? Where is it being held?
can you post the letter
There are three letters. One from Louise and two from Claude. I'll try to convince him to post them.
Wow, what happened? The next SAMBA meeting is in the SPAR Building, October 8th at 6pm.
See, that's going to be a problem.
Strider and Louise got into a heated discussion about thrift stores and rooming houses, and you can imagine, voices got raised. Strider left thinking they had agreed to disagree.
Shortly thereafter, Strider gets a letter stating that he was verbally abusive and physically threatening, and that if he returned JSO would be called and a restraining order would be made against him.
Strider brought a friend with him and this friend agrees that Strider was no more out of line than the executive director was.
But hey. Now, Strider cannot go to SPAR meetings (although he is a member) nor can he attend SAMBA meetings or any other functions there without risking JSO's involvement. Pretty convenient, if you ask me --
an easy way to keep him away.
Who is Strider? And what was the argument about? Sounds like the normal "he said, she said" and then of course "he" bears the brunt and repercussions of the altercation.
Heights Unknown
It's an interesting legal situation as public meetings like Shadco, Springfield Round Table are held in the private SPAR building.
I tried scanning and it didn't work, so I'm typing it. First letter
Quote
August 29, 2009
Address
It was just reported to me that you verbally assaulted Lousie DeSpain at the SPAR office this morning, putting her in real fear of physical assault. This was witnessed by several persons.
This is to advise you that you are prohibited from entering the SPAR building or having any contact with SPAR staff. If you make any attempt to enter the SPAR building, the Sheriff's office will be contacted immediately to have you ejected as a trespasser. We will also seek a restraining order against you.
GOVERN YOURSELF ACCORDINGLY.
Very truly yours,
Claude Moulton, president
I was wrong. Louise called Joe. Claude wrote to Joe. And this is his response to Claude.
Quote
August 27, 2009
Mr. Claude Moulton
President
SPAR Council
1321 North Main Street
Jacksonville, FL 32206
Dear Mr. Moulton:
I received your letter dated August 29, 2009 today, August 27, 2009, which was postmarked August 26, 2009. To just put forth the real facts of this matter, the date I was in the SPAR Council office was August 20, 2009, not August 28, 2009 as your letter implies. At no time did I physically threaten Ms. DeSpain. Furthermore, during a phone conversation later that afternoon, Ms. DeSpain personally told me that she did not feel that I had physically threatened her. In fact, the only time I got close to Ms. DeSpain was when she handed me a copy of an e-mail and I handed it back. Her complaint against me was that I had been rude to her and that I had taken out some of my frustrations over some of the actions of SPAR Council board members on her. I will admit that I did get verbally louder than I should have and I did apologize for that during the phone call with Ms. DeSpain.
While you may have two “witnesses†to this “verbal assaultâ€, I, too, have a witness that was there and in talking to this person, he agrees that at no time was I physically threatening to Ms. DeSpain. In addition, he states that he didn’t even consider it anything close to a “verbal assaultâ€. He also is willing to point out that Ms. DeSpain, while complaining about me being rude to her, was equally rude to both of us in how she questioned us in regards to our new thrift store.
After answering her questions, I asked for a copy of the list of illegal boarding houses that Mr. McVay indicated that residents should get to call in additional complaints about to the city of Jacksonville’s code enforcement. I was told that she would not give out the list. I said that was a good thing and that our houses should not be on any list. She took offense at that and insulted us by implying that we were running illegal rooming houses. At that point I did get upset and was louder than I perhaps should have been. I have apologized to Ms. DeSpain about that and will be happy to extend the apology to the entire board and staff of SPAR Council. However, one thing I did do was to tell Ms. DeSpain that if SPAR Council continues to harass Ms. DeVall and myself over our legal rental houses and legal non-profit run businesses, we will certainly take any appropriate legal action as may be prudent at the time.
Prior to this meeting, a representative of your board, who is also now an employee, from what I have been told, insulted us and our thrift store on a public forum. Several have called for an apology from her, yet none has been brought forth. At least I had the good conscience to apologize for any insult I might have made.
It does seem very convenient, does it not, that you would take this opportunity to “Ban me from the SPAR Council building and staff†when we have just opened a thrift store within your retail corridor and when you are still attacking our legal businesses. Reasonable people will see this for what it is. You are attempting to hurt my credibility and reputation and I must politely advise you not to use your false version of this incident in any attempt to discredit me.
From the lack of real facts in your letter and as your office is indeed a public area for the purposes of your non-profit and the additional fact that I am still a member of that organization, I will continue to use the SPAR Council building during whatever public meetings or events I see fit to attend.
Meanwhile, should you wish to discuss this matter personally, I will be happy to meet with you at any convenient time.
Please take your own advise and: “Govern Yourself Accordinglyâ€.
Sincerely,
Joseph J. Markusic
CC: SPAR Council board and membership via Forum
Quote
Quote from: AlexS on September 16, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
It's an interesting legal situation as public meetings like Shadco, Springfield Round Table are held in the private SPAR building.
I tend to agree with you, I think he has a right to attend a public meeting. When a private organization chooses to play host to a public event, they accept what comes with the territory. Strider should go chat with an attorney.
Constantly reading things like this and how businesses get killed via attrition from its very own resident "neighbors" almost leads me to believe the ridiculous notion that the blocks of Historic Springfield are completely cursed.
I get very confused by the "image" that people in Springfield want to portray for others to see. One needs only to read half of the sh!t posted and would never want to move into this area, or open a business. Too much familiarity is a breeding ground for contempt. If you could survive the snakes in this proverbial jungle, you'd still have the vultures to deal with.
And yet, the residents take it personal when someone admits in the nicest way possible that Springfield "just isn't in the cards" for their home or business. What a crock.
You misunderstand.
The issue, i think, is WHO is running the thrift store and WHO it benefits directly - not that a thrift store opened in general. There is a long history b/t Joe aka Strider & the SPAR council, and the residents who SPAR represents. If this was someone else then it would be received better, or if SPAR & many residents approved of Joe's other financial ventures in the neighborhood, then this wouldn't be an issue. Since both, unfortunatley, are not true, the result is a lot of friction.
I personally don't fall on either side of the argument, as I can see both viewpoints. I have purchased something from Joe's store, but I am very hesitant b/c of the backstory at the same time.
You'll find that, in general, stores and businesses that are viewed as a net positive are greatly supported by SPAR, if they wish to be involved. In fact SAMBA ( not directly related to SPAR, but generally assocaited with them) distributes a monthly color advertisment for interested businesses's in the area....this goes to all SPAR members. Heck, some businesses aren't even interested in SPAR or SAMBA but are viewed as a net positive and thus supported.
this is good stuff! I say get some of those 'liberal, ambulance chasing, job killing, aclu loving' trial lawyers involved then it will really get good and of course the litigants will be a little bit lighter in the wallet, but it would definitely provide entertainment for the peanut gallery!
Ahhhhh the Drama, the Drama
I'm not a borad member of SPAR, but i can take an educated guess and say that they do have legit reasons as to wehy they do not care for Joe's ventures. They have the best interest of the neighborhood in mind, which i appreciate. And they all live in the neighborhood, which also gives there concerns legitimacey over someone who does not.
I'm not sure what "approach" is being taken. What kind of "approach" do you see, Stephen? How would you describe it?
I'm also curious as to what, if any, actions would be considered outrageous and appropriate to take legal action over. I'm not aware of any, but if Stephen knows then i'd be eager to listen.
Thanks
As it pertains to the issue at hand, I am left to speculate that it is concerning the Spar insiders not favoring boarding houses. Perhaps they don't like thrift shops. IIRC, The thrift shop is to help fund a halfway house for recovering addicts.
Personally, I love me some recovery. In fairness I'm not sure I would want a recovery based boarding house next to mine. Recovery=AWESOME... Relapse=consequences.
Relapses are a reality within recovery groups. Still, it is an honorable endeavor to offer a place to those who would seek recovery.
Quote from: fsu813 on September 17, 2009, 08:21:42 AM
You misunderstand.
The issue, i think, is WHO is running the thrift store and WHO it benefits directly - not that a thrift store opened in general. There is a long history b/t Joe aka Strider & the SPAR council, and the residents who SPAR represents.
Nah, that IS the issue.
SPAR represents maybe 5% of the population of the neighborhood (mostly middle and upper class white people) but makes 98% of the noise about everything. Anybody who doesn't fit their idea of who should be there, or what type of property or business should be there, they exclude and treat like $h!t.
And it's been going on for 10 years. Same old crap, different day. SPAR doesn't represent anything but a VERY vocal minority, but for whatever reason the council, mayor, and code enforcement all play along with them. The whole thing's a joke. Hell, they don't even follow their OWN rules and bylaws when it comes to electing directors and conducting meetings, but they sure worry a lot about whether everyone else is following the rules...as
they see them.
Honestly, what have they really done, except constantly stir up drama? I don't see them buying, or doing anything else to prevent the demolition of, these vacant historic properties that COJ regularly bulldozes. Then they championed the biggest idiot investor to ever hit the neighborhood, who probably got his multiple low-interest mortgages from COJ with SPAR's help, and the head honcho continues to do so despite the fact that he's effectively insolvent and has dozens of foreclosures going, not to mention still ripping off the owners of his already-foreclosed places by continuing to collect rent even though he hasn't owned them since 2008.
Every time you hear anything about SPAR, it's just some silly politics and drama. S'field would be better off without them. They need to go away, and be replaced by another group that operates like RAP. I'm sure RAP would even help them restructure things, if they'd ask (but they won't). As to Strider, he has a right to attend a public meeting, and I'd advise him to go see his attorney.
Quote from: buckethead on September 17, 2009, 01:00:23 PM
As it pertains to the issue at hand, I am left to speculate that it is concerning the Spar insiders not favoring boarding houses. Perhaps they don't like thrift shops. IIRC, The thrift shop is to help fund a halfway house for recovering addicts.
Personally, I love me some recovery. In fairness I'm not sure I would want a recovery based boarding house next to mine. Recovery=AWESOME... Relapse=consequences.
Relapses are a reality within recovery groups. Still, it is an honorable endeavor to offer a place to those who would seek recovery.
Well, let's look at reality a minute...
Ask the question; If his boarding houses and thrift store weren't there, what would be there?
Answer: Probably a vacant lot, or yet another empty place. Some of these people really guzzle the gentrification Kool-Aid, and if you listen to them it's better to have it vacant than to be a thrift store *gasp*. Because, you know, Saks and Lord & Taylor will surely be opening up in Springfield any day now. ::)
Quote from: stephendare on September 17, 2009, 12:21:52 PM
would you seriously like me to list in detail all the grounds for a future civil complaint against SPAR?
FSU, you can't deliberately interfere with other people's businesses the way that SPAR has without opening yourself up to litigation.
You can read from the other comments on this page that the general public finds the attitutudes shocking and the behavior critical.
If what was said about SPAR circulating a list of businesses, the sole purpose of which is for the members to band together and call code enforcement en masse in an effort to shut them down, then SPAR should rightfully get hit with tortious interference.
The information and attitudes regarding SPAR's behavior that has come out in this thread is utterly appalling. I'm honestly shocked.
I've been a member of SPAR for about a year, and lived in the area for that long as well.
To various points of Stephen Dare's & ChriswufGator:
- i'm not aware of any interfernce into businesses, execpt to make sure they are on the up & up (codes, laws, etc). I am aware that they advocate for certain businesses over others, but not any interference......what do you consider interference Stephen?
- Chris, there is a reason why SPAR is the face & voice of Springfield: b/c noone else has stepped up and taken that responsibility! They have put in the time, effort, money, etc that is takes and noone else has. Stephen referenced some time ago about a possible new group forming similar to SPAR but with a different mission, but nothing has materialized. If you have large enough group of people, the time, energy, and resources nessecary to advocate, protect, and represent the neighborhood then let's do it. But noone has shown this. So since that option is no feasible, the other realistic option would be to join SPAR. If enough of their members want to make adjustments to thier mission or policies it will happen. This doesn't seem to appeal to those who have an issue with SPAR either. You have to do one or the other, if you wish to have a legit complaint. If you don't want to do either then what are you complaining about? It's like those who complain about politics but do not vote. I'm not saying SPAR is 100% fanatastic, i'm saying that they are the largest voice, the most effective mover & shaker, and have the best interest of the neighborhood in mind. Some might take issue with a detail here and there, but the vast majority of what they do is non-contraversail and positive. Apparently you only hear about the negative things, unfortunatley. If you are interested in the positive things, i'm sure many people could fill you in that have a broader knowledge than myself.
BTW - they got off the ground by renovating and selling historic houses, i believe, everyone "championed" Craig, and vacant properties don't get demo'd unless they have major structural issues.
Again, i'm certainly not a SPAR aplogist by any means, but the illogical negativity directed their way puzzles me. If you don't what they are, do something about it, basically. But don't down play thier importance.
Stephen,
yes i'm seriously interested in knowing what exactly you have a problem with concerning SPAR policy, approach, etc and what actions they've done that are worthy of a lawsuit, in your opinion.
Not to be smart, but i beleive that in the Folio article, it referneced that your lawsuit against Van Horn was dismissed for a number of reasons, so perhaps you don't have the best judgment in deciding what's worthy and what's not. Or perhaps you do, i'm not sure.
Quote from: fsu813 on September 17, 2009, 08:21:42 AM
You misunderstand.
The issue, i think, is WHO is running the thrift store and WHO it benefits directly - not that a thrift store opened in general. There is a long history b/t Joe aka Strider & the SPAR council, and the residents who SPAR represents.
I am not misunderstanding anything. It is quite clear that as long as it benefits SPAR or the residents who SPAR represents and nobody else, then it is acceptable. If this Strider person wants to use
his own money, time and effort on his own ventures with HIS OWN PROPERTY and is within the limitations of what's acceptable and allowable by law, who is anyone to condemn or tell him otherwise?
This person has been given a scarlet letter by a select few individuals. And these individuals are going to do anything in their power to cause this person to suffer an economic loss until he has to move out of the neighborhood.
That's not preservation or restoration at all.
Taken directly from the SPAR website:
QuoteSPAR Council is a non-profit community organization, whose purpose is to provide leadership to the residents of Historic Springfield to revitalize, preserve, and restore the community through its diverse programs. Springfield is Jacksonville's first, and oldest, sub-division, established in 1869.
All SPAR Council Officers and Directors are volunteers and residents of or business owners within the Springfield National Historic District. A minimum of 2/3 board directorship resides within the Springfield National Historic District.
Sounds like they should change their acronym to RAPED: Restoration And Preservation Exclusively for the Directors.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2009, 01:34:24 PM
If what was said about SPAR circulating a list of businesses, the sole purpose of which is for the members to band together and call code enforcement en masse in an effort to shut them down, then SPAR should rightfully get hit with tortious interference.
uhm..calling code enforcement to report violations of the law is not and will never be tortious interference with a business or contract, but don't listen to me.....file away... hire those trial lawyers they need the business!
Quote from: stephendare on September 17, 2009, 03:14:21 PM
Deliberately harrassing using these methods most certainly can be tortious interference, karl.
Also, there happens to be a very clear legal case to be made using publicly posted material from an individual who was a spar board member claiming to authoritatively know that properties in the neighborhood were hopelessly contaminated with environmental issues despite this being a lie.
It caused two separate deals involving millions of dollars to fall through. Deals that would have happened except that the potential investors felt that the neighborhood organization had more reason to tell the truth than the person selling the property.
then they should definitely take your legal advice and file some suits already! sounds like you've got a slam dunk there, why not go for it? I love legal posturing, its so much fun, but only if the lawyers get paid! afterall corporate entities must be represented by members of the bar, so yeah go for it.
muah? nope never, have never, will never, could care less about SPAR thanks for asking though.
you are very welcome!
I really wish non-Springfield residents on this forum would quit implying that SPAR represents and speaks for all of us and that were all real pleased with everything they do. It simply isn't true.
Upon rereading this entire post, it looks like everyone is quite aware that it's "select few individuals" and not the entire neighborhood...
...and btw, Strider did pay his $50 and is a card carrying member of SPAR.
I miss the 90's SPAR... :(
I think this whole thing is funny!!!! Grown people with nothing better to do. I don't either thats why I'm here. Anyway I've known Joe for the better part of five years and have been and am in close contact with him since. Strider has got to be one of the most mild mannered, even tempermental person I know. If Joe raises his voice to anyone, including Louise, they most probably deserve it. LOLLOLLOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: braeburn on September 17, 2009, 04:40:57 PM
Upon rereading this entire post, it looks like everyone is quite aware that it's "select few individuals" and not the entire neighborhood...
As I said, this forum, not this particular thread. Its been implied many times, and frankly its insulting to assume we are all sheep. Don't get me wrong, there are some. Must have been reading too many threads and commented on this one, or else something here made me think it, can't remember. Either way based on SPAR membership one might come to the conclusion that they barely represent more than themselves. The other option is that lots of us agree but we're just too damn stingy to pay dues.
Quote from: braeburn on September 17, 2009, 02:54:36 PM
Sounds like they should change their acronym to RAPED: Restoration And Preservation Exclusively for the Directors.
ROFL LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, this one is a tie with Stephen's "blind prophet" comment as the best MJ post of 2009!
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 17, 2009, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2009, 01:34:24 PM
If what was said about SPAR circulating a list of businesses, the sole purpose of which is for the members to band together and call code enforcement en masse in an effort to shut them down, then SPAR should rightfully get hit with tortious interference.
uhm..calling code enforcement to report violations of the law is not and will never be tortious interference with a business or contract, but don't listen to me.....file away... hire those trial lawyers they need the business!
Your statement rests on the assumption that Strider's rooming houses are illegal. They're not.
This also stems from the fact that Strider blasted the SPAR executive board for their election irregularities -- remember those of a year ago? The Q & A session and etc? He made very vocal concerns about officers remaining on the board in spite of the fact their term had run out.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3994.0.html
Quote from: AlexS on September 16, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
It's an interesting legal situation as public meetings like Shadco, Springfield Round Table are held in the private SPAR building.
Furthermore... should he be arrested for trespassing, would it be by the off-duty JSO officers hired by SPAR?
That is also an interesting pickle.
- Stephen, to your earlier post.....is there is anything else that is lawsuit worthy, in your opnion, besides the circulation of codes & laws to watch out for on certain properties & the opinion that here were some environmental concerns the held up a deal?
Noone addressed why, if they dislike SPAR and what they stand for so much, why don't they form another neighborhood organization....if nothing else as a counter-weight. Or simply join SPAR and work constructively to adjust it from the inside. Since noone addressed it, I guess noone is interested.
- braeburn, to your earlier post, people can do things with thier own money & property that are with-in the law and have their neighborhood not like it. That is allowed, ya know. In fact, in less dramatic examples it's common (color, trash, maintenance, lots of traffic, etc). In general it comes down to 1 thing: property values & desirability. If there is an argument to be made how boarding houses/rehab houses increase property vales & desirability, i'd like to hear it. There are many obvious ones to be made how they decrease values & repell interest. I can certainly understand why SPAR generally does not support something - anything - that lowers property values & makes potential home buyers look elesewhere. Does SPAR support anything else that lowers values - perhpas you can think of something? Also, i don't beleive Zombie Bikes is exactly the apple of the SPAR directors eyes....but they support it b/c it brings new people and interest into the area.
btw, i think this "drama" is interesting & entertaining. I would hope noone has any real hurt feelings or issues. I can't see why anyone wouldn't understand both sides of the argument.
It is difficult to work from the inside of an organization which does not allow its own board members to speak up. Not to mention the membership as a whole.
Hurt feelings? It is a tad larger than that.
Love the RAPED moniker... I was teary-eyed with laughter.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2009, 11:40:47 PM
Your statement rests on the assumption that Strider's rooming houses are illegal. They're not.
yeah, no it doesn't. I understand they are perfectly legal, but what you may not realize is that even legal businesses have code violations. But hey I understand you're trying to drum up business (it is tough out there) and of course a difference of opinion on legal matters results in plenty of lawsuits (and can also be quite lucrative for those 'greedy liberal trial lawyers' when they're billing by the hour), so I say litigate to your hearts content.
this whole thing is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot, the boon for many lawyers.
Quote from: fsu813 on September 18, 2009, 08:41:54 AM
Or simply join SPAR and work constructively to adjust it from the inside. Since noone addressed it, I guess noone is interested.
I tried that. Simply because some events are not discussed on this forum or this thread, does not mean they didn't happen.
ok.
so while SPAR represents only a small % of the neighborhood, according to some on here, and while there are many people who don't like some of things SPAR does.......common sense would point to this other large group of people forming a neighborhood organization, would it not? if you have the numbers & the motivation - what's stopping it from happening? the more the better, as far as i'm concerned. i'd probably be a member of both.
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 18, 2009, 09:23:29 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2009, 11:40:47 PM
Your statement rests on the assumption that Strider's rooming houses are illegal. They're not.
yeah, no it doesn't. I understand they are perfectly legal, but what you may not realize is that even legal businesses have code violations. But hey I understand you're trying to drum up business (it is tough out there) and of course a difference of opinion on legal matters results in plenty of lawsuits (and can also be quite lucrative for those 'greedy liberal trial lawyers' when they're billing by the hour), so I say litigate to your hearts content.
this whole thing is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot, the boon for many lawyers.
See, that
sounds nice and snazzy Karl...
But the problem is,
this is what you actually said:
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 17, 2009, 03:09:59 PM
uhm..calling code enforcement to report violations of the law is not and will never be tortious interference
So again, your original statement that I responded to rests entirely on the assumption that Strider's rooming houses are illegal, even according to your own words. They're not.
This is the great thing about message boards, you can't backpedal. Everything you said's right there in black and white.
To be honest, I wasn’t sure if this thread should have been started, but Sheclown did it so I didn’t have to make that decision. I had originally planned on posting all of it on SPAR Council’s forum, but hesitated because I was hoping SPAR Council’s executive board would embrace the truth. Based on the most recent letter from Mr. Moulton, it seems that they will not.
I am a little surprised at the turn this thread has taken. Some of what has been posted is very true while some of it is very far off the mark. One fact is that while I did indeed raise my voice to Louise, I did not bang on desks, throw chairs or continually interrupt the speaker like some other ‘favorite sons†of SPAR Council have done in public meetings. I was simply rude to her by raising my voice and that is it.
Stephen is very right in that SPAR Council’s strategy for commercial development is very flawed. It may be very much in tune with some national expert’s ideas, but it is very exclusive when Springfield needs, no requires, a strategy that is all inclusive. Our thrift store is an example of this. Spar Council representatives have come out and condemned this store for both who we are and who we help and also because it is a thrift store. The facts are that the store helps people who are doing the right thing and trying to be good citizens and it helps Springfield as a whole because it is helping Main Street become the walk-able retail corridor we all want. To be all inclusive, SPAR Council would have to embrace our store publicly and yet, not a word from them except negative comments.
As far as the harassment issues, they very much exist. Code enforcement is a complaint driven system. Once SPAR Council calls in a complaint, a code enforcement officer goes on site to check it out. He talks to the resident and/ or owners and decides whether there is indeed any kind of code violation. He then takes suitable actions. In all cases, we have been found to be legal and to meet all relevant codes. As the number of complaints about each house grows from SPAR Council, even the city finds it tiresome and begins to acknowledge that it is being used to harass us. Unfortunately, there is nothing the city can do about it but to continue to respond to the unfounded complaints and waste more of your tax dollars on SPAR Council’s harassment of us.
It should also be stated that we have one half-way house (which holds both a legal rooming house license and a commercial kitchen license) under a non-profit and several legal rental houses under a for profit LLC. What many here are calling rooming houses are nothing but legal rentals. But calling our rentals a rooming house helps SPAR Council’s cause.
SPAR Council is struggling. Their developer/ supporters are hurting, the neighborhood does not come out and support them much and the city is growing tired of their way of doing things. The executive board no longer bothers to follow the by-laws it helped write and the battles they choose to fight “on behalf of the community†seem to be the wrong ones and ones that they lose. They lose because they depend on lies and misinformation rather than the facts. The rooming house issue has worked before to get the community to at least seem like it is behind them so they are trying it again.
But wouldn’t you think they would address the real problems Springfield is facing? The loss of multiple historic structures, the real estate prices that have fallen 60% plus since last year alone, a employment picture that is causing an increased need of low cost housing and a Main Street that looks more like a war zone than a viable retail corridor. Working with people rather than against people seems like a more viable strategy.
As to forming a new organization? It was talked about, but to be honest, most people do not care enough nor, with all of today’s worries, is it a high enough priority. I believe they feel that SPAR Council doesn’t help much, but doesn’t hurt much either. The SPAR Council executive board, I think, depended on this when they started to ignore the by-laws and take over the organization. SAMBA could be the next big organization, but we have to wait to see if they are an exclusive driven organization or one that wants to be all inclusive.
This got a little long, so if you “too long, no readâ€, I understand!
really? wow...where can I get a pair of those amazingly insightful assumption identifying goggles that you have?
whether or not I assume his business is legal or not, the point I made was that contacting code enforcement does not constitute tortious interference, there was no backtracking as you say. But you are the lawyer, if you think what is going on is actionable why don't you offer your legal services to Strider pro bono, afterall aren't you supposed to do pro bono work anyway? This way you could fulfill your pro bono requirement and stick it to SPAR, kill two birds with one stone.
Thanks for responding Strider,
One of my questions was answered:
Q-why don't people that don't agree with SPAR form another organization?
A-They don't care enough.
As a comment to your answer, what the heck are they complaining about then? If people are not willing to do something about it, then stop complaining. If there so so many people who disagree with SPAR then forming such and organization wouldn't be difficult. The members of SPAR have earned their spot as the voice of the community through time, money, effort, coordination, etc. Anyone else is welcome to pursue it, noone has.
The question that was not answered is:
Q - Does SPAR support ANY venture or program that lowers property values & desirability?
I beleive the answer is no, so why they would not support rehab/boarding houses is obvious.
Perhaps someone has a different answer.
Also, i can't see how a thrift store on Main Street is a bad thing, again i contend that it has nothing to do with the type of store and everything to do with who owns it and why it is there. I can't say for certain, but it's an educated guess. Perhaps i'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
RAP can now adopt a new slogan "Hey, at least we're not those SPAR guys!"
It is so funny to read all of this. I live in Springfield and never have any idea that any of this goes on. I guess I am just so focused on my house, yard and block that everything else is a blur. Just thought it was funny and wanted to share from a resident viewpoint. My atttitude who cares who is in charge, just get something done!
QuoteAs a comment to your answer, what the heck are they complaining about then? If people are not willing to do something about it, then stop complaining. If there so so many people who disagree with SPAR then forming such and organization wouldn't be difficult. The members of SPAR have earned their spot as the voice of the community through time, money, effort, coordination, etc. Anyone else is welcome to pursue it, noone has.
The answer to the question was most, not all do not care enough or can make it a high enough prioity. As to why some of us are complaining? Someone has to or nothing will change. The members of SPAR Council executive board have not earned the right as the voice of the community, they stole it. They know it, many of us know it and the rest do not want to believe it. We are pursuing eliminating SPAR Council as being THE voice by pointing out the wrong doings. We are simply doing our best to make our voice heard as SPAR COuncil will not. They don't like that much, and so they attack us.
QuoteThe question that was not answered is:
Q - Does SPAR support ANY venture or program that lowers property values & desirability?
I beleive the answer is no, so why they would not support rehab/boarding houses is obvious.
Perhaps someone has a different answer.
It wasn't answered because it is the wrong question. The question should be: Is there any evidence that the current legal rehab and boarding houses along with any and all legal rental properties is indeed pulling down the values and desirability of the houses in Historic Springfield?
The answer to this question is also no. Would like proof? Just read the forums, ask reasonable questions and do not take the word of SPAR Council as being gospel.
QuoteAlso, i can't see how a thrift store on Main Street is a bad thing, again i contend that it has nothing to do with the type of store and everything to do with who owns it and why it is there. I can't say for certain, but it's an educated guess. Perhaps i'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time.
Go read the thread about the thrift store and you will see my version is correct and it is a thrift store period as well as who owns it.
glad your the lawyer! can see why we have such a litigious society, reading all that into my words "assuming" this and "implying" that..... Good stuff thanks!
must not be to busy at 'the firm', can see why you're stirring the pot.
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 18, 2009, 10:46:02 AM
really? wow...where can I get a pair of those amazingly insightful assumption identifying goggles that you have?
whether or not I assume his business is legal or not, the point I made was that contacting code enforcement does not constitute tortious interference, there was no backtracking as you say. But you are the lawyer, if you think what is going on is actionable why don't you offer your legal services to Strider pro bono, afterall aren't you supposed to do pro bono work anyway? This way you could fulfill your pro bono requirement and stick it to SPAR, kill two birds with one stone.
No backtracking, eh? So let's go down the history of what you said, shall we...
1st:
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 17, 2009, 03:09:59 PM
uhm..calling code enforcement to report violations of the law is not and will never be tortious interference
2nd:
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 18, 2009, 09:23:29 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2009, 11:40:47 PM
Your statement rests on the assumption that Strider's rooming houses are illegal. They're not.
yeah, no it doesn't....
And finally:
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 18, 2009, 10:46:02 AM
whether or not I assume his business is legal or not, the point I made was that contacting code enforcement does not constitute tortious interference, there was no backtracking as you say...
So, let's take it step by step. My original comment was that, when someone creates and distributes a list of businesses, the sole purpose of which is for distrubution to a group of people who are then supposed to call and file complaints with zoning or code enforcement en masse, without regard to whether the business is actually doing anything wrong, that amounts to nothing more than harassment or an effort to put them out of business and is most certainly tortious interference.
You then responded to me, trying to backpedal and say you never said Strider's businesses were illegal. Except, as is right above in black and white, you actually did say exactly that.
So I pointed this out, and said your logic only applies if the business being targeted was indeed illegal, e.g. properly subject to action by the departments with which the complaints were filed. You actually backpedaled even further, arguing that there could be potential code violations at legally-operating businesses. But that isn't what's happening here.
SPAR is distributing a list of businesses that people are supposed to call and file complaints about, even when the businesses are actually operating lawfully. This is nothing more than harassment, and will subject SPAR to liability for tortious interference, in the event Strider & Co. have to retain counsel, pay wrongfully assessed fines, or incur any other losses as a result of SPAR's spamming COJ with bogus complaints. If there happen to be one or two random code violations present, that is irrelevant as SPAR wouldn't know that, and those certainly weren't the basis of their complaints. The basis of the flood of complaints is SPAR's distribution of a list of businesses they don't like, while instructing people to spam COJ with complaints about them.
There is normally a recognized indemnity for people who report crimes to the police, or call code enforcement, etc. However, in this case, it's an orchestrated campaign involving a list of businesses distributed to dozens of people, and inclusion on the list appears to be based on nothing more than whether SPAR likes you, and not on any actual legal grounds for making a complaint. Given the circumstances, if his businesses are indeed on their literal $h!t-list, they are subjecting themselves to liability.
Meanwhile, you backpedaled plenty in this thread, first implying SPAR's actions are OK because Strider's businesses are illegal, then switching to arguing it's OK because there may be code violations present even at a legal business, and then finally packpedaling and claiming you said none of the above. Except it's all there in black and white, rather than arguing with me and trying to re-write history, just re-read your own comments.
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 18, 2009, 01:47:51 PM
glad your the lawyer! can see why we have such a litigious society, reading all that into my words "assuming" this and "implying" that..... Good stuff thanks!
must not be to busy at 'the firm', can see why you're stirring the pot.
In referring to Strider's businesses, you said that distributing a list of businesses you don't like and telling a bunch of people to file complaints about those businesses isn't tortious interference, because it's OK to complain about someone breaking the law, did you not? And given that Strider's boarding houses were the subject of the conversation, you really don't see how your comments say his businesses are illegal?
I then said that assumes Strider's businesses are illegal, and you said "no it doesn't". Except it does, even according to your own words. Look, you said what you said, man, it's all above in black and white. Why you keep arguing this point is beyond me, you weren't even subtle about it.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 18, 2009, 01:55:25 PM
you said that distributing a list of businesses you don't like and telling a bunch of people to file complaints about those businesses isn't tortious interference, because it's OK to complain about someone breaking the law
yeah I said all that, its right there in black and white except that without those special lawyer goggles none of us can see it, but thanks for pointing it out.
lawyers....jeesh.
code enforcement doesn't issue citations just because, there has to be some sort of violation, your post implies that SPAR has some magical power that they can cast a spell over code enforcement to do their bidding. If there are no violations there are no violations and the business isn't going to get cited for anything, what am I missing? and that is contradictory how?
Quote from: stephendare on September 18, 2009, 02:10:01 PM
You don't need 'lawyer goggles' to see that your point is asinine.
Just less beer, and a smokeless environment, and nobody piping in "HELL yeah!" at the next table.
sounds to me like an ad hominem attack, have you given up or something?
au contraire senior dare, I most certainly can maintain both its my perogative as a homo sapien.
Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on September 18, 2009, 02:08:11 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 18, 2009, 01:55:25 PM
you said that distributing a list of businesses you don't like and telling a bunch of people to file complaints about those businesses isn't tortious interference, because it's OK to complain about someone breaking the law
yeah I said all that, its right there in black and white except that without those special lawyer goggles none of us can see it, but thanks for pointing it out.
Maybe someone else can chime in to convince you (if that's even possible), but it really doesn't take any special goggles. You said what you said, and you weren't real subtle about it...
And I still think the whole idea of distributing a list of places you don't like and giving it to a bunch of people with instructions to try and shut them down by spamming COJ with complaints, is !@#$%&* APPALLING! I can't believe you don't have a problem with that kind of negative and conniving activity. Not to mention that it is inhibiting economic growth, and represents the direct opposite of everything SPAR allegedly stands for.
It's clear from Despain's reaction to his question that Joe's places are on the list, even though he actually operates completely legally. They just don't happen to like him. So apparently, their vetting process for determining which businesses are illegal or not is really nothing more than whether or not they like you.
And how does this group get off with an orchestrated campaign to do harm to others in the first place? This is supposed to be a historical preservation group, and instead they're engaged in little more than politics, backroom dealings, and smear campaigns. I've never seen a similar organization that represents so little of the population of the area in which it operates, nor one which has managed to create so many enemies. Actions like this don't bother you on some ethical level?
exactly why you should take this case PRO BONO, what are you waiting for! its time for ACTION, dammit.
let me tell you, if they effed with me like that it would be ON LIKE DONKEY KONG!
Quote from: stephendare on September 18, 2009, 02:27:47 PM
Dude you awesomeness knows no bounds!
now you're catching on!
Quote from: stephendare on September 18, 2009, 02:27:47 PM
Springfield is as lucky to have you as they were to have Propecia!
man, don't tell me that he/she whatever is not in SPR anymore? Propecia was my favorite 8th street tranny.... damn.
I'll have to go get a 40 of OE and remember the good times! R.I.P Propecia!
Quoteneeded replacing anyways from the old bullet holes.
Was Vampire Improv
THAT bad?? ;D
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on Today at 01:55:25 PM
Quote
And how does this group get off with an orchestrated campaign to do harm to others in the first place? This is supposed to be a historical preservation group, and instead they're engaged in little more than politics, backroom dealings, and smear campaigns. I've never seen a similar organization that represents so little of the population of the area in which it operates, nor one which has managed to create so many enemies. Actions like this don't bother you on some ethical level?
This is one of the problems. They are so focused on revenge for Strider and me that they are letting their initial and primary job get neglected. Add this to the fact that they allow developers to seduce them into ripping down historic homes and the neglect turns to actively destroying what was their mission.
There's also a lot of talk about property values. Many of us feel that protecting the historic fabric of the neighborhood (insuring that no more homes be torn down) comes above development-at-any-cost.
We are hoping that we can join SAMBA, especially now that we operate on Main Street, and work toward something positive. However, should Strider end up in jail over trespassing charges, that might put a damper on our involvement.
Strider,
it is comical to redirect my last unawnsered question. I'm asking the wrong question?
As a recent home buyer and as someone who knows people in general, rehab/boarding houses are not desirable and do not increase property values.
I looked at the house for sale recently that was 2 houses down from a rehab house, on Hubbard, and one of the deciding factors was "hey, i think i'd rather not live 2 houses down from a that".
to try and deflect this common sense rule of thumb is ridiculous. people generally don't want to live next to them. it's a fact. i think everyone, but you, would agree with that.
btw, i welcome a thrift store on Main, fine with me, and I have no perosnal knowledge of the history b/t SPAR & Strider, so i can only go on what i've heard. but in general, yes, i don't want any more boarding/rehab houses in my neighborhood.....we have plenty and the general consensus is the less there is in a small area, the better for values.
Um okay, I guess we shouldn't give a shit about our property values or anything that might possibly affect them?? I'd like to get rid of the ho's and crack houses, dealers & thieving addicts too. Just because you complain about one issue doesn't mean you've forgotten the others. And if I recall the question also had to do with desirability. Do a random survey of potential homeowners, given the choice of a bunch of halfway houses or not, which would they choose?
QuoteSPAR is distributing a list of businesses that people are supposed to call and file complaints about, even when the businesses are actually operating lawfully ... SPAR's spamming COJ with bogus complaints... SPAR's distribution of a list of businesses they don't like, while instructing people to spam COJ with complaints about them...orchestrated campaign involving a list of businesses distributed to dozens of people
Before the tar & feathers comes out, I'm not championing SPAR. I do know that I and many other residents have tried to get this list and are told the only list they have is of legal & illegal rooming houses and it will not be distributed. So who are the dozens of people getting it? Nobody here would just be spreading blasphemous rumors would they? Someone here claiming this is going on MUST have seen this list? If so, please share!! Inquiring minds want to know.
SPAR also to my knowledge has always offered to issue COJ complaints on behalf of residents who do not wish to do it themselves. So it is easy to say it is all SPAR's doing but much of it could be due to a neighbor who just doesn't like you who asks SPAR to issue the COJ ticket.
oh jeez Stephen,
1) crack houses don't advertise themselves as crack houses, in fact, the more suddle and unnoticed they are the better, as far as they are concerned. rehab houses are relatively obvious. the home i referenced actually has a sign out in front of it.
2) you're right about one thing - if i thought there was a crack house 2 doors down from a house for sale, i probably wouldn't buy that one either. they BOTH are bad for values. simply stating "well, crack houses are bad for values too" doesn't mean that rehab/borading houses are not......it means they both are.
3) i would contend, as most would, that the crack houses DO, in fact, bring down values in the neighborhood. of course they do. talk to any potential home buyer. It's crazy to think otherwise. thank goodness there's not too much of that around anymore. Prostitutes bring values down as well, yes. I'm not sure where you got the notion that these various negative things haven't affected home prices.......they have. Heck, if there were no drug houses or prositutes....there would be much greater interest in the area & people wouldn't get scared off. Of course they impact values and desirability.
you would have a very difficult time arguing to anyone that rehab/boarding houses, crack houses, and prosititutes do NOT have an affect of property values.
in fact, that's mission impossible. but i hope you try!
Quote from: nvrenuf on September 18, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
Before the tar & feathers comes out, I'm not championing SPAR. I do know that I and many other residents have tried to get this list and are told the only list they have is of legal & illegal rooming houses and it will not be distributed. So who are the dozens of people getting it? Nobody here would just be spreading blasphemous rumors would they? Someone here claiming this is going on MUST have seen this list? If so, please share!! Inquiring minds want to know.
Your position is pretty well undermined by the very fact that there even IS a "list"...
So let me ask you, what's a nonprofit historic preservation group doing keeping "lists" on people and businesses (that they don't like) in the first place? How does acting like a mini-KGB possibly fit their mission statement, or preserve any historic properties?
For the last decade, they've been consumed with B.S. like that, while 1/3 the neighborhood has been bulldozed. So if you're judging the organization's effectiveness by its succes in reaching objectives, then SPAR has utterly failed in its mission. The bottom line is that they have no business keeping "lists" in the first place. They don't even accomplish what they're supposed to do, I have a hard time understanding where they find the time to engage in all this drama. Every month there's new SPAR drama, without fail.
And just as another general proposition to toss out there, when someone's keeping a $h!t list on others, do you really think it exists to do what? Lend a helping hand? Is SPAR just intending to send a bouquet of flowers to everyone on the list, right? Wine and cheese baskets maybe? ROFL
And to answer your question, read the correspondence at the beginning of this thread, and Louise Despain's comments to Joe. It's pretty obvious what the purpose of the list is.
Stephen -
Hmmmm. So when I was seriously thinking about buying the house on the corner of Hubbard and 2nd or 1st (can't remember), 2 spots down from the huge rehab house, your telling me.....what?
that i should have been afraid of the drugs, prosititutes, etc more? Well, i didn't observe it to be an issue in that vicinity, so that wasn't the issue. Living 2 doors down from the rehab house was.
hard to argue with that.
Yes, i do agree that drugs and prostituion are more of a problem than rehab/boardng houses....but they are all net negatives on the neighborhood. While drugs and prositution are extremely difficult to curb for a small community organization let alone any other agency (ask the police), rehab/boarding houses are much easier to address. I suspect that is why SPAR has pursued it - b/c they are able impact that, in fact they have (ie, the contraversy over the house on Boulevard).
And, like someone said, i know (from attending the SHADCO meetings) that SPAR is trying to impact drugs & prositutes as well.
In fact, next Tuesday, the 22nd, there is special SHADCO meeting focusing on 8th street alone.....and what can be done to address that which is condisered the most visible flaw of the neighborhood, the drugs & prositutes there. All opinions and viewpoints being heard is a good thing, as far as i'm concerned.
Since it's not a SPAR meeting, Stephen, i hope you can make it. SAMBA isn't SPAR either, so i hope you can make those meetings too. i haven't seen you at either much and i think it'd be great if you attend.
For someone who seems to be in touch with the neighborhood, I haven't seen you at very many of the neighborhood organizations or meetings at all.
Perhaps we can debate in person then, it's fun (in my opinion).
ChrisUF,
SPAR does more than preservation, fyi. it's in thier name.
R = revitalization.
which can encompass many things. revitalization can include: lowering crime, increasing property values, beautifcation, supporting 'postive' ventures and being critical of ventures deemed 'negative', etc
I really wish you'd put the time, effort, and money into creating a new neighborhood group since SPAR is so poor, in your opinion.
Quote from: fsu813 on September 18, 2009, 05:45:39 PM
ChrisUF,
SPAR does more than preservation, fyi. it's in thier name.
R = revitalization.
which can encompass many things. revitalization can include: lowering crime, increasing property values, beautifcation, supporting 'postive' ventures and being critical of ventures deemed 'negative', etc
I really wish you'd put the time, effort, and money into creating a new neighborhood group since SPAR is so poor, in your opinion.
I no longer have any property there, though they definitely annoyed and hassled me when I did. And hearing how they continue to treat others poorly annoys me now. You're either their "kind" of people, and share their ideas, or you're excluded and treated like crap. It's been that way as long as I've been here (10 years).
As to starting a replacement organization, I think that's a great idea, but isn't that a risky proposition? I mean, have to ask whether I really want to get added to....dun...dun....dun...."THE LIST" (cue cheesy 1950's horror movie organ music).
But since you mentioned their name, then maybe someone could explain to me how acting like a mini-KGB and keeping $h!t lists on people helps preserve and revitalize? It seems to be working! I guess all those vacant lots where there were 100-year old houses 2 or 3 years ago have been "revitalized"?
I'm thinking this whole "list" affair is going to end up like this..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwKON8QsQoI
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 18, 2009, 05:25:21 PM
Your position is pretty well undermined by the very fact that there even IS a "list"...
So let me ask you, what's a nonprofit historic preservation group doing keeping "lists" on people and businesses (that they don't like) in the first place?
Many organizations keep lists (both electronic and paper) for various purposes. JSO keeps lists to identify trouble spots by the number of calls pertaining to a location. Trouble spots get more attention. Maybe SPAR keeps a list for a similar purpose.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 18, 2009, 05:25:21 PM
Your position is pretty well undermined by the very fact that there even IS a "list"...
The point I'm making is no one has seen any such list, yet on here dozens of people have received it with explicit instruction on what they should do with it. Why would a Historic neighborhood group keep a list of illegal and legal fill-in-the-blank houses? Because some were grandfathered in and some were not. If a resident calls about what they think is an illegal house SPAR can tell them 1) nope, its grandfathered don't worry about it or 2) that's a potential issue and ask zoning to get involved. That seems like normal stuff.
Do they like Joe? Sure doesn't sound like it. But its quite an assumption to think they are sending out the hounds on everyone. Anyway gotta go, actually have other things to do on a Friday night.
Quote from: nvrenuf on September 18, 2009, 06:53:37 PM
Anyway gotta go, actually have other things to do on a Friday night.
Just for the record, you
do realize you posted that at 7pm on a Friday night, right? ::)
Were you aiming for irony, or was it unintentional? ;D
Just a quick question for Stephen. If you don't mind. Who is the "former Spar board member that you keep referring to?? I don't seem to remember anyone having that much power as to convince the whole neighborhood to turn on people and their business practices.. I'm just curious who had that much power besides Louise, I don't really know anyone on the board. They're all a little old to be frolicking in the same crowd as I...
Quote from: nvrenuf on September 18, 2009, 06:53:37 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 18, 2009, 05:25:21 PM
Your position is pretty well undermined by the very fact that there even IS a "list"...
The point I'm making is no one has seen any such list, yet on here dozens of people have received it with explicit instruction on what they should do with it. Why would a Historic neighborhood group keep a list of illegal and legal fill-in-the-blank houses? Because some were grandfathered in and some were not. If a resident calls about what they think is an illegal house SPAR can tell them 1) nope, its grandfathered don't worry about it or 2) that's a potential issue and ask zoning to get involved. That seems like normal stuff.
Do they like Joe? Sure doesn't sound like it. But its quite an assumption to think they are sending out the hounds on everyone. Anyway gotta go, actually have other things to do on a Friday night.
And you know, what we have here looks likes a case of "I'm too lazy to read the whole thread, but I just can't help myself from opining in it anyway". The information you claim is missing is actually right there plain as day at the beginning of the thread;
QuoteAfter answering her questions, I asked for a copy of the list of illegal boarding houses that Mr. McVay indicated that residents should get to call in additional complaints about to the city of Jacksonville’s code enforcement. I was told that she would not give out the list. I said that was a good thing and that our houses should not be on any list. She took offense at that and insulted us by implying that we were running illegal rooming houses.
So, if you had actually read the correspondence posted at the beginning, you would see that not only is the list disseminated, but a SPAR representative is encouraging people to obtain a copy and call COJ about the businesses on it. I have never known Strider to lie, and as a general thought I doubt many people would lie in an open letter that they are not only posting publicly, but already sent to the very people they'd allegedly be lying about. That would be a little unusual, to say the least, wouldn't you say?
http://www.sparcouncil.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4838&p=40888#p40888
What set Joe off was the display which read "No rooming houses, Not now, Not ever" displayed on a table in the SPAR office. It didn't say anything like "No More".
Also, check out the Women's Club Orange Blossom Notes, or whatever it is called. Claude addressed the group and talked about petitions or a rally against rooming houses.
How can this be anything but detrimental to the neighborhood? How can this NOT cause a "them versus us" mentality? Don't they realize that people who live in rooming houses have computers? Read Orange Blossom newsletters? Just how in the world are these people suppose to feel? About themselves? About the place they live?
And while we're at it. Just who do you think restored your pretty little home? The men (and women) who live in the halfway houses and the rooming houses. They built this neighborhood. They know your house better than you do.
ChirsUF,
i already gave you an example of a group of people that are non-SPAR like who SPAR does welcome: the young, alternative, Zombie Bikes-crowd, persay. there goes your theory.
sheclown,
how can attempting to get rooming houses out of a neighborhood be anything but a bad thing? (ha) is this a serious question? b/c noone wants to live next to one. right or wrong, they carry a stigma, which they've earned to some degree, not all. and when there is a concentration of them in a 1x1 area of the largest freaking city in the US.....well, that's not gonna be looked on as a good thing.
My goodness. Main Street looks like a war zone. There are a dozen slabs, shin level, sitting abandoned scattered throughout the neighborhood, aborted plans for the future. There are "F" schools disgracing our city, frightening levels of unemployment. Businesses, restaurants, offices are closing every hour, and we (I'm talking here as PEOPLE) want to waste our energy chasing out some poor people who live in rooming houses? People who have a LEGAL right to live here whether or not, you like it?
Weren't these same arguments made against people of color, especially in this city, just a few decades ago?
Don't you understand that this type of hatred (and I'm not just talking about your comments, I'm talking about the "leaders" in the neighborhood in their much publicized campaign) this type of intolerance carries with it a much larger stench than anything you fear from rooming houses.
What will come next? Pointy white hats and burning crosses?
Just a few comments on some of the recent posts.
In the case of the complaints directed at some of our houses, we know they are from SPAR Council. Not just because the complaint form said so, but because we know they called and complained that we were not found in violation of anything. Because they insisted on re-opening cases because the result of the complaint wasn’t what they wanted. We were visited by supervisors, specialists and still, we are told by the “experts†at SPAR Council that our legal and over inspected rentals are illegal. Louise even suggested that the city simply wasn’t doing it’s job. We must be illegal because Louise and the rest of SPAR Council’s executive board thinks we are, and as they do not even have to follow their own by-laws, then by all that is LOLA in the world, they must be right.
Remember that the 300K house that is just down the block from that legal rooming house was only worth 5 to 10K when the rooming house was opened. The rooming house was still there when the house in question was worth 50K, then 100K and still when the house became worth 500K, you guessed it, that rooming house was still just down the block. By now though, there is a good chance that the rooming house received some needed repairs and a fresh coat of paint. Today, since that 500K house is now only worth 300K, some are blaming the rooming house. Of course, you can just ignore the fact that the rooming house was right there as the community and therefore the house raised in value and desirability. You must at all cost find something to blame for the lost value so let’s pick on that rooming house. A very intelligent thing to do.
The “list†does indeed exist. While I can’t prove it, the indications are there that some have gotten the list. Why else post a call for additional complaints against the 12 “illegal†rooming houses.? This list more than likely does not contain the known legal rooming houses as it does seem to be about “illegal†ones. The only reason to have the list is to help make complaints. Common sense. However, Louise may have been telling the truth about not handing the list out. Perhaps they read it to people over the phone?
SPAR Council certainly does support a program that hurts both real estate values and desirability within Historic Springfield. It supports it’s own programs of exclusivity often with false information and innuendo and normally ends up with mud on it’s face. The SPAR Councils executive board promotes distrust and disgust within many of the local businesses and those same sentiments are now being spread through many within the CoJ offices. The old SPAR was not liked by the city because they could not work with anyone. Don’t believe all this? All you have to do is not take my word for it and go talk to the business owners themselves.
I have followed this trainwreck of a thread and as an outside observer, with no other interest in springfield than admiring its beauty, perhaps I could weigh in with a bit of pragmatism.
Springfield will die, if left uninhabited.
Drug addicts abound within her borders.
So long as there are warm bodies in these structures, they will stand rather than rot.
Serving to aid addicts become citizens is a noble endeavor.
Keeping residents in these historic structures stops the decay, even if it does not restore them to thier former glory.
Is it not a good thing to encourage addicts to become better neighbors while preserving historic structures?
Would your property values face better prospects with those same addicts meandering your streets?
Looks like SPAR would rather see a forced "clean up". Good luck with that!
Sheclown,
you must be deflector / straw man-in-chief.
yes, there are plenty of negatives to be addressed in the neighborhood. an abundaance of rooming/rehab houses is one of them to a lot people. it may not be high on the list, relatively, which is my opinion, but i'd rather them not all be there. If that's something SPAR can affect then that's fine with me, as impacting many of the larger issues is out of thier league. if they could have an impact on some of the more important blights, then i'd be all for that. they try, but are much harder to resolve. i suppose they have to pick winnable battles, otherwise they are wasting thier time. they have deemed the issue of rehab/boarding houses winnable to some degree.
this has nothing to do color, and comparing it to that is not applicable. it is a good straw man though.
Strider,
you must have the wrong house. the only two other houses on the same block as large rehab house on Hubbard & 2nd or 1st are both new construction. thus, your story does not apply.
now, let's assume that it did apply. yes, values can go up substanially with certain undesribale things in the area, to a limit, a celing. but when you curb the undesirable things in the areas the you attract even more people, values go up.
Well...by all means...
If it is more convenient and makes you feel better, go after the poor.
& yes, the arguments you use against rooming houses (and ultimately the people who inhabit them) are the same arguments used against any group of people who are different (and thereby a perceived threat) to the white middle class -- and for Heaven's sake why anyone would move into a city and not understand that diversity is a part of living downtown?!?
It is a class war.
(Ironically, current economic conditions make entrance into this lower class possible for anyone... We'll keep the light on for you! ;D)
As far as a fight that is winnable? LOL
FSU813’s recent post illustrates the true issue very well.
QuoteIf that's something SPAR can affect then that's fine with me, as impacting many of the larger issues is out of their league. if they could have an impact on some of the more important blights, then I’d be all for that. they try, but are much harder to resolve. i suppose they have to pick winnable battles, otherwise they are wasting their time. they have deemed the issue of rehab/boarding houses winnable to some degree
These comments describe a very common tactic. If you can not solve the real problems, then find an issue, real or imagined, and win that fight. If it involves discrediting a group of people and therefore, enables you to create two different sides, your and theirs, then so much the better. It is a common political tactic and one that is not only used today by many of our politicians, it has been used through out history by the best dictators of the world.
The info sheet within the SPAR Council’s office that says “Rooming houses, Not Here, Not Now, Not Anymore†illustrates this tactic very well. They start with a scary story and then go right to the above.
The purpose of an organization like SPAR Council going out after something they consider “winnable†is the making a political statement that says, “Look at us, look at all we’ve done for you. Give us more so we can do more.†Shift the blame for something to one small group and then just allow the real issues to continue on.
This should concern all of us as who will be next? Who or what group will become an unintended casualty of this campaign, for there are often “innocents†sacrificed in campaigns like this. It could be you.
After looking at all of the posts..........I have come to this conclusion. SPAR seems to using the Johnny's smoke and mirror routine to their personnel benefit! It would seem to me that a counter organization would have merit since alot of the people who live there seem to feel that SPAR does not represent the whole but just a select few. I have already learned about how the officers did not follow their own rules and see that this is a microcosm of the City's Administration. Maybe HUD should be contacted for not only some information but lodge a complaint!
I think we've already established that despite some complaints, noone wants to put in the time, energy, and money to form another organization.
Strider,
yes - you find winnable battles. that's smart. if you can't affect large issues, solve the smaller ones. I have no idea why they took aim with boarding/rehab houses initially, but i don't really disagree with thier opposition......(as most home owners in the neighborhood won't either).
also, unlike many typical organizations, in which your framing might be accurate, virtually all SPAR members live in the neighborhood, so thier motivation is first towards improving thier neigborhood. second, these are not paid employees....so giving more 'zero' is not personal motivation, certainly. common sense tells me that SPAR has been operational on much less money than they receive now.
Well...then we shall all reap what we collectively sow.
As a member of a house of recovery I find the rules I have to follow much more stringent than what I would have to follow at my families house in Ortega, nobody wants more crap in their in their area not even us in recovery when people realize there is a common goal , things might work !!!!!!
Quote from: Dark Knight on September 22, 2009, 07:43:05 PM
As a member of a house of recovery I find the rules I have to follow much more stringent than what I would have to follow at my families house in Ortega, nobody wants more crap in their in their area not even us in recovery when people realize there is a common goal , things might work !!!!!!
The "Dark Knight", shedding some light.
Both sheclown & strider were at last night's Shadco meeting in the SPAR building with plenty of police and Louise about 10' away and no one left in shackles. That's probably the closest to an apology (even tho it isn't one) anyone is going to see, IMHO.
Quote from: nvrenuf on September 23, 2009, 01:50:39 PM
Both sheclown & strider were at last night's Shadco meeting in the SPAR building with plenty of police and Louise about 10' away and no one left in shackles. That's probably the closest to an apology (even tho it isn't one) anyone is going to see, IMHO.
And many thanks to Doug V. for working that out. It was a good meeting. We need lights and trash cans and the wisdom to solve unique problems.
Keep up the good fight.