It looks like Ock was right. He's been preaching this for a while now.
QuoteOfficial says funds will be used to build bullet trains incrementally.
CHICAGO | The Obama administration's top railroad official says Americans shouldn't expect to see networks of souped-up, bullet-fast trains after the $8 billion set aside in the federal stimulus bill for high-speed rail is finally spent.
But Federal Railroad Administration head Joseph Szabo said in prepared remarks for an industry conference Friday in Chicago that the White House is committed to upgrading train service, adding that the stimulus cash is just a down payment on what he dubbed "a rail renaissance."
"Change will happen incrementally," he said.
"High-speed rail is not a sprint. It's a marathon you need to adapt your business models to."
The former Chicago Metra crewman noted that U.S. spending should be put in perspective of the huge amounts of money some European and Asian nations have spent on high-speed systems.
He singled out Spain, saying it's devoted more than $140 billion to its networks.
Szabo said 40 states have submitted a total of 278 proposals worth more than $100 billion asking for a cut of the $8 billion in stimulus money, with some initial decisions on who will win grants expected soon.
A proposed high-speed rail network in the Midwest and a California plan appear to be among the front-runners for stimulus cash.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090911/NEWS/909115069/1410?Title=-Rail-Renaissance-to-Be-Slow-Process
Now we need try to become Amtrak's priority. Do you think we can get the HSR crowd to throw in with us?
I don't know. On the surface, it seems like a large chunk of the high speed crowd is more interested in souped-up bullet fast trains than logical and affordable rail enhancement solutions.
QuoteWSJ
SEPTEMBER 8, 2009
Race Is On to Grab Stake in Rail Effort
By CHRISTOPHER CONKEY
WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration is poised to spend $8 billion in stimulus funds on high-speed-rail projects, kicking off a scramble among states and railroads, train makers, construction firms and other companies angling to profit from the unprecedented stream of federal funding.
The National Railroad Passenger Corp., better known as Amtrak, said it is working with 24 states and the District of Columbia on high-speed-rail applications.
HNTB Corp., a Missouri-based planning, design and construction-management firm, said it helped Florida and at least five other states craft their applications.
Companies based outside the U.S. have the most experience with high-speed rail, and several are jockeying to curry favor with California, Illinois, Florida and other leading candidates to receive funding.
Siemens USA, a subsidiary of Germany-based Siemens AG, has spent $76 million to expand a factory in Sacramento, Calif., where it builds rail cars. The company has already provided passenger vehicles for light-rail systems in San Diego, Denver and Salt Lake City, and it plans to hire more than 100 workers in the year or so ahead as it competes for stimulus-funded contracts.
The fastest trains currently running in the U.S. -- operated by Amtrak as the Acela service between Washington and Boston -- were built by the Canadian firm Bombardier Inc. and France-based Alstom SA. Both companies continue to be major players in the U.S. market.
Although the Obama Administration is promoting "high speed" rail service, truly high-speed rail service, where bullet trains whiz by at 200 miles per hour or more, "is really decades down the road," said Stephan Koller, a spokesman for GE Transportation, a subsidiary of General Electric Co. The Acela trains go as fast as 150 mph.
The initial rail programs will focus heavily on existing routes where trains currently travel at top speeds of only 79 mph. Work on those routes will likely benefit a range of engineering firms, construction companies, freight railroads and Amtrak.
Mr. Koller said GE, which made about 200 of the slower-speed Amtrak locomotives currently in use, is focusing on "higher-speed rail" where trains run between 110 and 124 mph on existing infrastructure.
Pennsylvania-based Wabtec Corp. has already benefited from the stimulus bill, thanks to transit agency purchases by Virginia and Chicago, and the company is looking to expand deeper into the passenger rail market.
National Railway Equipment Co., of Mt. Vernon, Ill., is known for its fuel-efficient freight locomotives, but Vice President Jim Wurtz said the company now "sees a market opportunity for the development and production of...passenger locomotives."
Railroad operators like Union Pacific Corp., which own and maintain almost all of the lines used by Amtrak and regional commuter rail operators today, also stand to benefit from the stimulus money. An Illinois proposal to lay a second track between Chicago and St. Louis, a project designed to reduce the Amtrak trip between the cities by 90 minutes, would also boost the number of Union Pacific freight trains that can operate in the corridor.
States have submitted 215 applications for ready-to-go projects under the first phase of the program, which will begin awarding grants in a matter of weeks. States will submit another round of applications next month seeking even more funding to construct high-speed rail corridors, such as one California is proposing between Los Angeles and San Francisco.
As soon as this week, Joseph Szabo, administrator of the Federal Railroad Administration, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and other senior White House officials will start deciding how to award the grants. A Transportation Department spokesman said the officials won't meet with any lobbyists or state transportation officials.
In an recent interview, Mr. Szabo indicated that clear winners will emerge from the process.
"We have to come away with very tangible success," Mr. Szabo said. "One of the worst things we can do is spread the money around so thin" that no major impact is seen.
Write to Christopher Conkey at christopher.conkey@wsj.com
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125201220447984485.html
5 for 5, not bad for an old Hippie! I expect the FEC WILL BE AWARDED, and if we're smart enough funds for Jacksonville platforms DOWNTOWN, will be included.
(http://www.genesisgroup.com/images/print_photos/jax_depotparkmp.jpg)
Gainesville, Florida depot (top center of the diagram), Note that the tracks now end about a mile north of this spot, but most of the right-of-way is still in place. The Depot is across the street and parking lot from THE SWAMP... RDC Anyone?
The following is mostly JTA stuff, I'm sure most of you will spot area's where JPA, JAA, FDOT etc. would play a big role.
JTA will blow this if we don't apply for:
Funding for platforms and kiosks at FEC and Atlantic Bl in San Marco
Funding for platforms and kiosks at CSX and Wells Road, Jax-Orange Park or at Yukon.
Funding for the Forest Street Extension of the Skyway
Funding for the Atlantic at the FEC (WEST SIDE) Skyway station and extension.
Funding for the first 5-8 miles of streetcar downtown, Riverside, Springfield
Funding for the "S" line and it's purchase North of Jacksonville Terminal
Funding to replace the Lee Street Viaduct for rail access to the Terminal
Much of this could be put into the Amtrak/FEC package, with the added urgency of the Sunset/Gulf Wind, and the return of the Palmetto.
We should also work with Alachua County to get track between Gainesville and Jacksonville upgraded for corridor shuttle trains, such as an RDC or DMU car.
We should also work with Marion County to get our connection with Ocala/Silver Springs, reestablished, on a Jax-Tampa train.
We should offer assistance to Lakeland, and encourage the replacement of the CSX "S" line between Wildwood (Coleman Jct.) and Auburndale. This would relieve all freight traffic through Lakeland, bound for the new yard at Winter Haven. It also gives us THREE routes to Miami again.
JAX-Daytona-Melbourne-Ft. Pierce-West Palm Beach-Miami
JAX-Deland-Orlando-Winter Haven-Sebring-West Palm Beach-Miami
JAX-Baldwin-Ocala-Wildwood-Winter Haven-Sebring-West Palm Beach-Miami
(http://www.filehive.com/files/090517/Southwind.jpg)
Former Southwind, leaving Chicago for Jacksonville where it will split up for all parts of Florida, it was the City Of Miami's alternate day running mate and Amtrak killed them both.
We should encourage working with the following cities in a railroad summit, to place or reintroduce
the following famous trains or routes:
Georgia:
JAX-Valdosta-Macon-Atlanta *Former Royal Palm, Ponce De Leon Route
JAX-Jessup-Macon-Atlanta *Former Dixie Flyer, Dixie Flagler route
Alabama:
JAX-Birmingham-Memphis *Former City of Miami Route
JAX-Tallahassee-Mobile-New Orleans *Former Gulf Wind Route
Mississippi:
JAX-Birmingham-Memphis *Former City of Miami Route
Tennessee:
JAX-Birmingham-Memphis *Former City of Miami Route
South Carolina:
JAX-Savannah-Columbia-Charlotte-Washington-NYC *NEW ROUTE ID'd by Amtrak study
North Carolina:
JAX-Savannah-Fayetteville-Norfolk *Former Tidewater Route
JAX-Savannah-Columbia-Charlotte-Washington-NYC *New Route ID'd by Amtrak Study
JAX-Savannah-Columbia-Raleigh-Richmond-Washington-NYC *Former "S" line Raleigh/Richmond
Virginia:
JAX-Savannah-Columbia-Raleigh-Richmond-Washington-NYC *Former "S" line Raleigh/Richmond
JAX-Savannah-Columbia-Charlotte-Washington-NYC *New Route ID'd by Amtrak Study
Several of these lines could be extended, such as Atlanta-St. Louis, Atlanta-Cincinnati-Chicago,
New Orleans-Houston-Los Angeles, etc.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3549/3429375686_3d5c37b6d2.jpg)
18 hours onboard the train and Amtrak Florida can't understand why you wouldn't want to get off and board a bus to this station from Tampa!
These would be my priority projects. Forget the Mouse Fantasy Train, funding for "HSR" is going to be awarded to the Midwest HSR, NC/VA rebuilding of the "S" Line, The FEC Route, The Gulf Wind Route, California most of which I would predict going to the Bakersfield-Palmdale-Los Angeles route through the loops and the torturous Tehachapi pass route, which like the FEC, hasn't seen a passenger train since 1971 - about 12 Amtrak-California Corridor trains make the trek from the Bay Area and Sacramento, to Bakersfield daily. In Bakersfield the train meets a long line of buses, all Amtrak charters to different destinations within the Los Angeles Area. California has discovered after years of the highway short-cut, the bus operation is expensive. Most passengers would rather stay on the train for a ride that's a good (SCENIC) 2 hours longer. Why? It's the old DO NOT DISTURB Mentality... Florida has yet to learn from this SAME effect when they allowed Amtrak to cut the Tampa-St.Petersburg segments of all trains and replaced them with buses.
Hopefully MONKEY SEE - MONKEY DO!
(http://www.trainweb.org/KernJunction/up/03070105.jpg)
THINGS TO COME! I PROMISE!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2418/2087362172_ce48bac537.jpg)
YEP! SAME TRAIN, TWO LEVELS, WATCH THE NEWS FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT SOON.
Just a note on the Tehachapi pass route. If California, does get funding for improvements on this line it will be worth the trip just to make the LA-Bakersfield journey. Back in the Hippie Days I was onboard the San Joaquin Daylight, all the time, and know this route like the back of my hand. It is spectacular, dozens of tunnels, many horse shoe curves and a complete loop over yourself to climb the pass. The town of Tehachapi, sits in the crest of the San Bernandino Mountains. In the Spring you will witness some of the most incredible displays of wild flowers on earth, the mountains explode with colors. If you love trains, you'll go nuts here too, as both UNION PACIFIC (Uncle Pete) and BURLINGTON NORTHERN SANTA FE (Uncle John) both funnel all central California traffic over this SINGLE LINE, nearly sea level to 3,793 foot elevation.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock I do agree but have to point out that getting two people to agree on anything is bad enough but when you get ten or twelve then its hell on wheels! Jacksonville should be the hub and not further south as in Orlando/St Pete area! Two directions to expand at once would be twice as costly and don't agree with that idea!
again CS....Jacksonville works just fine as a hub for southeast regional train service....but it makes very little sense as a hub for a statewide rail network...Ock and I have discussed this before and he even conceded that point.
OK........then Gainsville might be a better choice since its a more centrally located in relation to a possible hub for statewide operations? My reasoning is hurricane biased. Jacksonville has a history of not getting major hits on a regular schedule unlike Orlando and that area. I cannot see funding that area with tax dollars without getting the benefit statewide. If the Mouse wants a train then let the Mouse fund it!
wha does a hurricane have to do with anything?
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 13, 2009, 08:53:21 AM
again CS....Jacksonville works just fine as a hub for southeast regional train service....but it makes very little sense as a hub for a statewide rail network...Ock and I have discussed this before and he even conceded that point.
I did? When? Too much SOCO maybe!
We are the only NATURAL location for the hub of both the Southeast AND Florida. This is where all of the Florida Trunk lines funnel through downtown and meet all of the interstate routes. We will be to RAIL what Atlanta is to AIR. OCKLAWAHA
tusfu1.........I made mention of "Hurricanes" as in a way out of Dodge! Since the Interstates will be clogged then a viable option would be rail don't you think? I mean we are discussing a Mass Transit System correct? Moving people from point A to where ever and that is a scenario that is worst case! I would like to have a system in place that is useable, cost effective and viable for all! Katrina and buss's is all I have to say about it!
well if you want to use rail as a means for evacuation, you just contradicted yourself....you stated that Jax. doesn't get hit often but orlando does...yet you don't want Orlando to be the starting point for a statewide system....using your argument, wouldn't it make sense for Orlando to be Point A?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 14, 2009, 10:04:55 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 13, 2009, 08:53:21 AM
again CS....Jacksonville works just fine as a hub for southeast regional train service....but it makes very little sense as a hub for a statewide rail network...Ock and I have discussed this before and he even conceded that point.
I did? When? Too much SOCO maybe!
We are the only NATURAL location for the hub of both the Southeast AND Florida. This is where all of the Florida Trunk lines funnel through downtown and meet all of the interstate routes. We will be to RAIL what Atlanta is to AIR.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, you agreed with me that Jax. is not an ideal hub for a passenger rail system that ONLY is concerned with intrastate travel.
And I agreed that Jax. is an ideal hub for an interstate rail system
Gentlemen.........I am looking at not only intrastate but intercontinental. Jacksonville would be best deal I think because of where we sit in relation to existing trackage. East Coast with options for north.....south and west! Hurricane evacuation is but one way out of town but if one were big enough then plenty of time to bail!! The Mouseville people need the same option to leave as do the rest of us! Orlando is in the middle and I still say that is not the place to start no matter what a biased survey says. If Mouseville wants a rail system then let them build it! I would really like some say in what my tax dollars are being used for!
So why should Orlando be the "hub" versus just a station along the line? The problem today is that if you want to go from Jacksonville to Miami you have to go through Orlando and Tampa and it takes 12 hours.
If you run the railroad like an airline hub and spoke system I don't think you are going to like the results.
tufsu1 I would like your opinion on the "just" of the thread. The 8 billion will be spent on passenger rail improvements and the Buck Rogers crew will be left out hat in hand.
Not looking at rail from a hub and spoke point of view tufsu1! I am looking at the existing trackage in place right now!! Based on that without adding anything there is possibilities........Jacksonville does have adequate trackage both in and out, west north and south. Orlando does not have near the same nor is it positioned correctly other than feeding Mouseville! A Light Rail System there will just effect that part of the world and what about the rest of Florida? I don't wish to concrete over any more swamp or water shed area's I want to make use of what we have today. When it proves its worth then worry about expanding but have an expansion plan in mind to start with, options to select from. I just don't want to shotgun approach when a scalpel will do the job!
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/FloridaRailMap2006-2.jpg)
Note the several gaps in the system, Bartow-W. Lake Wales, Auburndale-Wildwood, Wildwood-Tavares, Brooksville-Dunnellon. (http://www.kinglyheirs.com/Vacations/images/Florida20082.gif)
Here we can see a bit more of the State HSR planning, I-75 is our most congested corridor, yet the gods of Tallahassee have written off OCALA, LEESBURG and GAINESVILLE. This came on the heels of Ocala investing millions to turn it's old railroad depot into a "Transportation Center."Quote from: Lunican on September 15, 2009, 11:27:22 AM
So why should Orlando be the "hub" versus just a station along the line? The problem today is that if you want to go from Jacksonville to Miami you have to go through Orlando and Tampa and it takes 12 hours.
If you run the railroad like an airline hub and spoke system I don't think you are going to like the results.
Hub and Spokes, died with Eastern Airlines. It wasn't working for air, as Southwest, Piedmont and a host of others have proved. It will work even less for rail in Florida. Who would want to travel from Gainesville or Ocala, to Orlando, then change for a train to Jacksonville? Daytona, Orlando, Cocoa?
Ft. Myers, Orlando, Miami? That's just nuts.
Just to get out of Orlando, the rail line will have to follow the Tradeport-Taft-OUC area lines to the South, East and Southeast. To the North, it's Jacksonville or bust. Northwest they DID have a line from Orlando-Tavares-Leesburg-Wildwood and hence north on the CSX "S" line to Jacksonville. But the Wildwood-Tavares segment is gone. Ditto with a line that once ran through Rollins College out to Oviedo, GONE. So not only will high speed hub and spokes not work, it would cost BILLIONS just to reopen or rebuild long abandoned trackage.
This is not to say Orlando, Tampa and Miami would have less train service then Jacksonville. The triangle is already in place and in mainline condition. Orlando-Auburndale-Tampa, Orlando-Auburndale-Winter Haven-West Palm-Miami, Tampa-Bartow-West Lake Wales-West Palm-Miami
These would be routes of using the SFT operations concept. (*SFT Short-Fast-Trains). Meanwhile about 5 out of every 10 running on the Orlando-Tampa segment would be long distance trains from NYC and JAX.. Another 5 trains running from NYC-JAX-Ocala-Tampa, and still another 5 running from NYC-JAX-Daytona-Miami. This doesn't even consider the New Orleans - Jax route, or 5 optional routes which could add service to St. Louis, Memphis, Birmingham, Chicago, Nashville, Cincinnati, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Charlotte, or Norfolk. It also does not consider Sarasota/Venice, or Ft. Myers/Naples, Gainesville/Starke-JAX.
If FDOT gets away with the HSR scam, they will fracture the strong support Amtrak has in the Orlando market. Division of a strong passenger base between LRT, HSR and AMTRAK doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense, when the concept should be SERVING FLORIDA HUMANS - NOT MICE!OCKLAWAHA
Well said Ock and I agree! Mouseville niche does not easily get hooked into the rest of the trackage available and as I have posted "If Mouseville wants a rail system, let them build it"! Orlando/St Pete would be a stand alone system and really hard to connect to much of anything! Jacksonville still makes a better choice for a start up system based on trackage already in place!
Seems like a no brain-er to me, Jax all the way.