Young Workers: A Lost Decade’
By Tula Connell
September 2, 2009 - 10:15am ET
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Something bad happened in the past 10 years to young workers in this country: Since 1999, more of them now have lower-paying jobs, if they can get a job at all; health care is a rare luxury and retirement security is something for their parents, not them. In fact, manyâ€"younger than 35â€"still live at home with their parents because they can’t afford to be on their own.
These are the findings of a new report, “Young Workers: A Lost Decade.†Conducted in July 2009 by Peter D. Hart Research Associates for the AFL-CIO and our community affiliate Working America, the nationwide survey of 1,156 people follows up on a similar survey the AFL-CIO conducted in 1999. The deterioration of young workers’ economic situation in those 10 years is alarming.
Nate Scherer, 31, is among today’s young workers. Scherer lives in Columbus, Ohio, where he shares a home with his wife, his parents, brother and his partner.
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009093602/young-workers-lost-decade
Here are some shocking stats:
Quote
44% of people earning $30,000 or less don't have health benefits
73% don't have retirement or pension benefits
about 50% don't have paid sick leave
The government should do something.
Quote from: buckethead on September 05, 2009, 01:10:27 PM
The government should do something.
Well, in this land of opportunity, opportunity is slipping away.
It's a sad state of affairs, having three families living in one house. Used to be that was only the case among new immigrants, not those who had already had been exposed to "opportunity."
As far as government is concerned,.......they have all the perks with their job that are being denied to most workers:
Paid sick time, vacation, healthcare insurance, and pensions.
On top of that, they make about $170,000 a year. So they're not feeling it.
Jobs move from here to Indonesia because Indonesians are willing to do more work for less money.
I wonder how many of them make 30 000 annually. How many of them have health insurance?
How many mor jobs would migrate overseas should we mandate employer provided insurance? I would like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. I'm just tone deaf.
Makes you wonder about the Japanese, Germans, Koreans, etc,etc, moving factories here... pulling good paying jobs out of thier homelands....
What a wacky world... :)
Quote from: buckethead on September 06, 2009, 08:38:17 AM
Jobs move from here to Indonesia because Indonesians are willing to do more work for less money.
I wonder how many of them make 30 000 annually. How many of them have health insurance?
How many mor jobs would migrate overseas should we mandate employer provided insurance?
Hmmmm, I wonder why European countries prosper the way they do?!?!
They are not in the race to the bottom,......they feel a responsibility to their citizens, which apparently doesn't compete with their bottom line. It actually enhances their bottom line.
QuoteDoctor Doom
How Is Western Europe Doing?
Nouriel Roubini, 09.03.09, 12:00 AM EDT
France and Germany are faring better than the others.
This week I will review the second-quarter gross domestic product releases of the four large Eurozone countries and the U.K. Europe's big surprise for the quarter was that Germany and France expanded again, each posting 0.3% quarterly growth.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/09/02/eurozone-gdp-france-germany-united-kingdom-opinions-columnists-nouriel-roubini.html
Remember France has the world's best healthcare system!!!!!!
The paradox is that having a really good healthcare system doesn't have to cost a lot:
France spends only half of what the US spends per capita (per person living in that country) than what the US spends per person, even though the US leaves 50 million people uninsured and another 50 million people with junk insurance.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on September 06, 2009, 06:21:11 PM
This gets my vote as the funniest thread I have seen on this site.
I just hope I can make it through the day without crying too much about the poor young workers of America. It will be difficult, but I think I can manage.
Try to hold it together...we (and our poor, exploited work force) may just make it :-X
Labor day was created, by President Cleveland, as a result of the Pullman strike of 1894. He sent 12,000 soldiers to help quash the strike, just to get the rail cars moving again around the country as other "union" folks who worked the railroads, would not work the Pullman cars. Interesting time in US History, so now we get the first Monday of September off as a result.
Just heard Big Jim go off at the 7 AM shift.
There's a bit of labor history for Labor Day; Big Jim. The work day started at 7AM; whistle. Stopped for lunch at noon; whistle. Started again at 1:PM; whistle. Stopped at 5PM; whistle.
And we complain about working hard from 9 to 5??
Being under 35 and out of work, I can sympathize but I suppose we are just going to have to get more creative in finding a job and keeping a job. No, luckily, I don't live in mom's basement - yet.
Quote from: buckethead on September 06, 2009, 08:38:17 AM
Jobs move from here to Indonesia because Indonesians are willing to do more work for less money.
I wonder how many of them make 30 000 annually. How many of them have health insurance?
How many mor jobs would migrate overseas should we mandate employer provided insurance? I would like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. I'm just tone deaf.
That's what tariffs are supposed to help control and prevent. Think about this for a second. A company who let's say makes coffee mugs can move his company to Mexico (or dozens of other countries that we have free trade agreements with) and sell the same product without being taxed for importing said product and often with reduced costs because of differences in wages and so on. Meanwhile our country loses jobs and tax revenues. Yet the average working man is taxed on his income (which didn't happen until the 20th century) plus he'll be charged sales tax for when he goes to buy coffee mugs from the company that moved their factory. That's justice all right.
Granted I'm biased because I'm from a rust belt town that has experienced this first hand, but don't you wonder how the government ever got along for over 100 years without income taxes? I have no ill will for those other countries, but the U.S. needs to look out for the interests of all its people not just the top bracket. Maybe if we had a better tax policy, then paying for insurance and entitlements and so on wouldn't be such a hot button issue.
One more thing I've been near the bottom of the pile, and life was still pretty good. Maybe we need to rethink our standard of living too. Bottom line: greed is killing us rich and poor.
Income tax is slavery. Tariffs work, but there is a price to be paid for implimenting them.
You might remeber hearing about a group name America First?
We have most certainly lost sight of what serves our citizenry as a whole.
Quote from: buckethead on September 08, 2009, 10:51:06 PM
Income tax is slavery. Tariffs work, but there is a price to be paid for implimenting them.
We have most certainly lost sight of what serves our citizenry as a whole.
Income tax is the price we pay to live in a civilized society, plain and simple.
Yes, on an uninhabited island you wouldn't have to pay any income tax, ...........but is that where you want to live?
Faye, The income tax is actually a fairly recent invention as far as taxes go. Tariffs, taxes on goods as they move from one place to another, sales taxes, property taxes, poll (head) taxes, all have a much longer history. Value added taxes and income taxes are recent and require fairly sophisticated accounting and record keeping.
The income tax wasn't introduced in this country until 1913. The Supreme Court of the US had declared income taxes unconstitutional and it literally took an amendment to the Constitution to implement. The Supreme Court knew that the income tax was not authorized by the original Constitution so the amendment was necessary.
This country was actually quite civilized even before the income tax was instituted. When first put in place, fewer than 3% of the population actually paid the tax because it was applied only to millionaires.
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 09, 2009, 10:25:51 AM....................This country was actually quite civilized even before the income tax was instituted. When first put in place, fewer than 3% of the population actually paid the tax because it was applied only to millionaires. ........
.......and now most every body pays income tax. This is something to remember the next time a politician says that they will only tax the rich to pay for a new program.
Quote from: FayeforCure on September 09, 2009, 09:46:43 AM
Quote from: buckethead on September 08, 2009, 10:51:06 PM
Income tax is slavery. Tariffs work, but there is a price to be paid for implimenting them.
We have most certainly lost sight of what serves our citizenry as a whole.
Income Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society, plain and simple.
Yes, on an uninhabited island you wouldn't have to pay any income tax, ...........but is that where you want to live?
Fixed it for you. I did not suggest that we should not be taxed.
A tax on consumption seems to be a better way to promote fairness is taxation. All must participate, exemptions can be made for consumption up to the level of poverty, It would promote sustainable living, and would rightly tax the uber wealthy when living guilded lifestyles instead of re-investing in humanity.
If only something like this were being proposed. ;)
This is the funniest thread I've ever seen. Being a recent college grad and young worker, you should all pitty me. I worked hard through undergrad and stood out among my peers. I got a job straight out of college that pays fairly well, provides insurance, and will soon provide a matching 401-K. I live on my own, don't use food stamps and even tie my own shoes. I'm having such a tough time in this terrible country.
This thread is for the deadbeats that drink their way through college (if they even go) and get a job at Wendy's when they graduate. For those of us who work hard and save up for our own retirement, this is absolute nonsense.
I agree with buckethead "The government should do something". (hahahahahaha)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 09, 2009, 10:59:01 AM
This is the funniest thread I've ever seen. Being a recent college grad and young worker, you should all pitty me. I worked hard through undergrad and stood out among my peers. I got a job straight out of college that pays fairly well, provides insurance, and will soon provide a matching 401-K. I live on my own, don't use food stamps and even tie my own shoes. I'm having such a tough time in this terrible country.
This thread is for the deadbeats that drink their way through college (if they even go) and get a job at Wendy's when they graduate. For those of us who work hard and save up for our own retirement, this is absolute nonsense.
I pray you're never laid off.
Quote from: stephendare on September 09, 2009, 01:47:11 PM
Well now, burn to shine, name calling isnt really how we do things on these forums.
Zissou is entitled to his opinion, and we try and criticize the opinion rather than the person.
Sorry. Struck a nerve. One doesn't have to agree with the topic but to generalize that all of us stuck at home searching for jobs - "drank our way though school" is an uneducated guess.
Quote from: stephendare on September 09, 2009, 01:47:11 PM
Well now, burn to shine, name calling isnt really how we do things on these forums.
Zissou is entitled to his opinion, and we try and criticize the opinion rather than the person.
;););)
Burn to Shine, I'm not saying everyone that is out of work falls into my description. My criticism is towards the general idea that our country as a whole is making it harder to be prosperous or wealthy.
I think now, more than ever, it is possible to be successful in this country. It may require hard work or more studying than in the past, but to say that it is unachievable is a laugh. I probably overreacted to the post, but it comes from a long time distaste for the junk that Fayeforcure puts on this forum. I believe her beliefs are what are making this country decline in the way that she asserts.
I apologize if I struck a nerve. I simply believe that hard work and determination will give any man or woman their just reward, while the welfare ideals of Fayeforcure will cause us to rot.
Quote from: NotNow on September 09, 2009, 02:30:44 PM
Quote from: stephendare on September 09, 2009, 01:47:11 PM
Well now, burn to shine, name calling isnt really how we do things on these forums.
Zissou is entitled to his opinion, and we try and criticize the opinion rather than the person.
;););)
:O:O:O
Stephendare, look through Faye's history of postings and tell me I'm not right.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 09, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
Burn to Shine, I'm not saying everyone that is out of work falls into my description. My criticism is towards the general idea that our country as a whole is making it harder to be prosperous or wealthy.
I think now, more than ever, it is possible to be successful in this country. It may require hard work or more studying than in the past, but to say that it is unachievable is a laugh. I probably overreacted to the post, but it comes from a long time distaste for the junk that Fayeforcure puts on this forum. I believe her beliefs are what are making this country decline in the way that she asserts.
I apologize if I struck a nerve. I simply believe that hard work and determination will give any man or woman their just reward, while the welfare ideals of Fayeforcure will cause us to rot.
I believe in hard work, education and all of that, but it makes my blood boil when I see the AIG's, Merrill Lynch, Citibank's, etc. of the world get off scott free and get a bailout to boot, for their mismangement and incompetence. Meanwhile the honest, hardworking, taxpaying folk have their retirement nest eggs depleted by the aforementioned mismangement.
If you think that hard work and an education alone will earn you a 'fair shake' in the world, you must be too young to know better.
You might want to learn the Golden Rule, "he who has the gold, rules".
I've got to take up for Faye as well here. While I disagree with much of what she would implement shoould she be granted authority, I do believe she has her heart in the right place.
I prefer policies that default to liberty (I'm the real liberal) and Faye prefers government input and control over issues. This is not to say that those issues do not exist.
The OP was in regards to young persons being out of work and without health insurance.
All people having a wonderful lifestyle is a nice concept indeed. Perhaps we will see more of this in the future. Technology offers a better shot at it than legeslation IMO.
Shine, I'm certain you'll do well as long as optimism, persistance and determination outlast apathy and sloth. We all have each within us.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 09, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
Burn to Shine, I'm not saying everyone that is out of work falls into my description. My criticism is towards the general idea that our country as a whole is making it harder to be prosperous or wealthy.
I think now, more than ever, it is possible to be successful in this country. It may require hard work or more studying than in the past, but to say that it is unachievable is a laugh. I probably overreacted to the post, but it comes from a long time distaste for the junk that Fayeforcure puts on this forum. I believe her beliefs are what are making this country decline in the way that she asserts.
I apologize if I struck a nerve. I simply believe that hard work and determination will give any man or woman their just reward, while the welfare ideals of Fayeforcure will cause us to rot.
Well I'll tell you one thing - I'd happily work at Wendy's if I could even get a job there. You lose your job and see how easy it is to feed your family then. I wouldn't even be able to get welfare if I tried and I haven't found a job in six months. I just think people should think about walking a mile in someone else's shoes before vomiting up some personal ideal - in general. I'm very happy that you have a job and you are hard working but there are a lot of people in this world right now who WANT to work and can't get a foot in the door. Times are tough all over whether you can see it from your pedestal or not. Thanks for the apology. I'm sorry I originally called you an a$$hat.
Quote from: buckethead on September 09, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Shine, I'm certain you'll do well as long as optimism, persistance and determination outlast apathy and sloth. We all have each within us.
Thanks. It just stings to hear people say things like "apathy and sloth" to those who spend 24/7 searching and writing and just short of begging for a job. I hear ya.
Quote from: Burn to Shine on September 09, 2009, 01:41:36 PM
I pray you're never laid off.
I agree with you Burn to Shine,.......some other people are just too self-centered, they just can't see beyond themselves. They have a habit to think that if something isn't happening to them it's just not true, or it only happens to "lazy people."
It's their way of "coping," ........after all it would be rather discomforting to realize that hard work alone is not enough.
I am sure the people in the following article lived by the rules of "education and hard work" too, but find out that it is no guarantee of having a job,......or I should say a well-paying job.
QuoteHard work, but no pay
By Wall, J K
Publication: Indianapolis Business Journal
Date: Monday, March 2 2009
The most up-to-date report about white-collar job losses in Indianapolis comes every Monday at dawn in the parking lot at St. Luke's United Methodist Church.
The number of cars that pull in to attend the weekly gatherings of the Business and Professional Exchange has more than doubled in the last two months.
Inside, men and women in business suits give repeated 30-second introductions of themselves, their skills and their goals for new jobs. They have lost or left jobs at not only prominent companies such as Eli Lilly and Co., Simon Property Group Inc. and Gannett Co. Inc., but also small firms, not-for-profits and even churches.
As job losses accelerate in the worst recession in a generation, it's becoming tougher and tougher for even well-educated, experienced professionals to find work--or at least to find a job in the area and at the pay they want.
"It's as bad as it was in 1983," said Bruce Flanagan, a salesman who has been out of work since April. "It's definitely an employer's market."
Out-of-work professionals say they're spending 50, 60 and even 80 hours a week networking, searching and submitting resumes for jobs.
They're staying upbeat--but the pressure is rising along with the unemployment rate. The rate for the Indianapolis area was 6.7 percent in December, up from 3.9 percent a year earlier.
"The sense of urgency in looking for a job is something that I don't think is appreciated by those who are currently gainfully employed," said Scott Sigman, who has been searching for a job since November and coming to the north side chapter of the Business and Professional Exchange since January.
Sigman left Indianapolis in June to take a consulting job at Global Insight in Boston, earning a salary of more than $100,000. But in October, the company was acquired and he was out of work the next month.
Since their Carmel house still hadn't sold, Sigman and his wife, Jamie, decided to move back to Indiana once their teenage sons finished school in December. Upon their return, Jamie Sigman started working part time and Scott Sigman started searching full time for a new job.
Sigman, who has a master's in economics, has had one offer. But it was for about half what he made in Boston, and it fizzled when he asked for 10 percent more pay. A couple of other companies have interviewed him multiple times but have yet to make a decision.
"They're percolating but not brewed," Sigman said of those leads. Since employers are so uncertain about the economy, he added, "It's really a go-slow atmosphere."
Sharon Gatlin-Chambers counts the time off as a blessing. She said her previous job in sales management, for a large aluminum and plastics company she declined to name, had gotten so stressful that she needed to leave. She also saw it was only a matter of time before her company started trimming staff.
"This is a great time to reflect on what we did in the past," said Gatlin-Chambers. "We were so in tune to making dollars and cents."
Gatlin-Chambers negotiated a separation agreement in October and has been searching for a new career since. She stays busy networking and volunteering. She's had interviews but, so far, no offers.
Lou Begnel also looked at unemployment as an opportunity. He took a voluntary buyout from Lilly in June--right after the company finished paying for him to earn an MBA.
Begnel wants to move into a project management role, so he has spent hundreds of hours volunteering for groups like the Business and Professional Ex-change and Startup Weekend Indianapolis, a project that launched five businesses in a 48-hour period.
But Begnel's severance pay ran out at the end of January. Then in February, Begnel's wife, Ilona, lost her job with a logistics company--and the couple's health insurance.
"What I've been searching for has been a step forward in my career," said Begnel. He had a job offer in July that would have paid him $20,000 less per year than he made at Lilly and required him to commute an hour each way when gas cost $4 a gallon. He decided not to take it. But now he's changed his outlook.
"I'm now at a point where, if it's lower in pay scale and even less responsibility, I'm going to apply for and interview for those positions."
Making connections
Career coaches and outplacement experts say the kind of networking Begnel, Sigman and Gatlin-Chambers are doing is crucial to finding a new job.
Most open jobs are never posted on online job hoards like Monster.com, they say, and, even if they are, having even a loose personal connection to the hiring manager is a key way professionals can make themselves stand out.
Distinguishing yourself is perhaps even more important in this recession than in previous ones, career coaches said.
Gatlin-Chambers and Begnel are trying to do that through volunteering. Sigman gives a PowerPoint presentation about himself, tailored for each company he interviews with.
In fact, he and other professional job seekers say they write a different resume for every job they apply for, spending hours to research the company and to emphasize how their skills meet the job opening.
"What I'm hearing about this particular downturn is, they're feeling the competition a lot more," said Patrice Waidner, a career coach at the WorkOne Center in Fishers, part of the Indiana Department of Workforce Development.
If there are things different about this recession than the ones in 2001 and 1991, said Jack Robertson, an independent career consultant and executive coach in Carmel, it's that smaller companies are less able to hire refugees laid off from larger companies.
"Today, those [smaller] companies are also being adversely impacted, I suppose because of the lack of credit flow," Robertson said. "They're not in a hiring mode because they're currently not in a growth mode. That leaves people saying, 'Where do I go?' "
The credit crunch also makes it harder for individuals to borrow money to start their own business--another fallback strategy that worked in past recessions.
And the health care sector, a refuge in past recessions, isn't this time around. Large local hospital systems such as Clarian Health and St. Vincent Health have shed non-medical staff. Waidner has seen a few former health care professionals show up in the job-search workshops she conducts.
Jena Hartman is searching for new work in health care but has so far been stymied. For the past 15 years, she has used her backgrounds in nutrition education and commercial recipe development to create meals and snacks that fit her husband's diabetic diet.
When he lost his job last fall, Hartman began trying to find a job helping other diabetics manage their diets.
"I've been networking, and I've been talking to everybody," said Hartman, taking a break from a Business and Professional Exchange meeting in Greenwood. "I've not made the right contact to find the right opportunity."
Unexpected offer
Some people are making the right contacts and finding jobs.
Barb Richardson was laid off in January from a job in development at the Simon Youth Foundation, part of layoffs throughout the corporate office of Simon Property Group Inc., she said.
But as Richardson was calling to cancel her upcoming appointments, one woman asked her to apply with her organization.
Richardson landed a similar development job at the woman's organization, Kappa Delta Pi, a national education honor society based in Indianapolis.
For the last year, Norma Jean Graves had helped many laid-off administrative assistants find new jobs. As president of a local chapter of the International Association of Administrative Professionals, many of her members turned to her for help and counsel.
But late in February, Graves herself lost her job at Woolpert Inc., an architectural and engineering firm, in Indianapolis.
"Now I have to walk the walk," she said.
More and more people are in the same position Graves is.
The unemployment rate in Indiana is among the nation's highest, at 8.2 percent. Since the end of October, the number of Hoosiers receiving unemployment insurance has more than doubled, to nearly 160,000.
The largest layoffs have been in the construction and manufacturing sectors. But white-collar workers have suffered their lumps as well.
From October to December, the number of Hoosiers employed in professional and business services fell 3.4 percent. Employment in finance dropped 2.2 percent and even government jobs shrank nearly 1 percent. Education and health care remained fat.
That's what Sigman and his family are doing.
He received no severance from his previous job, but has had to pay about $1,000 a month to continue his health insurance under COBRA, the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act.
His family stopped going to restaurants for dinner, as they had multiple times a week before. They turned down their thermostat, even in the unusually cold winter. And they've held off on gifts for their kids.
"There was no Hanukkah, effectively," said Sigman, who is Jewish. When his youngest son turned 14 recently, Sigman said, "the birthday was just a cake and an IOU."
Trying to stand out
A sampling of professionals hunting for work...
Lou Begnel, 33
Why job hunting: left manufacturing job at Eli Lilly and Co. via voluntary buyout
Been searching: 9 months
Looking to do: project management in life sciences
Jena Hartman, 59
Why job hunting: husband lost nursing home administration job when his firm was acquired
Been searching: 4 months
Looking to do: Nutrition education for diabetes patients
Scott Sigman, 46
Why job hunting: lost trade consulting job at Global Insight when his firm was acquired
Been searching: 3 months
Looking to do: business development, market analysis
http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/compensation-benefits-wages-salaries/12266898-1.html
I suggest those who have a hard time seeing beyond their own "success," practice the art of walking in someone else's shoes as past Florida Senator Bob Graham used to do during congressional recess breaks.
Quote from: Burn to Shine on September 09, 2009, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: buckethead on September 09, 2009, 03:42:19 PM
Shine, I'm certain you'll do well as long as optimism, persistance and determination outlast apathy and sloth. We all have each within us.
Thanks. It just stings to hear people say things like "apathy and sloth" to those who spend 24/7 searching and writing and just short of begging for a job. I hear ya.
It does sting indeed. I hope it was clear that I intended that for myself as much as anyone else.
You sound niether apathetic nor slothful.
And BTW never take up for Faye. You'll get a sermon either way you go. Might as well just agitate! ;)
Can a cut and paste "maximum" be voted in on this site? Some are WAY too long.
...don't want to be an ass but...I go here for original (local individuals) thought and discussion that pertains to this area. I can take all viewpoints etc. but if I want everything "political" I can turn on my TV and be bombarded :P
Quote from: stephendare on September 09, 2009, 11:16:50 PM
Quote from: DavidWilliams on September 09, 2009, 10:51:31 PM
Can a cut and paste "maximum" be voted in on this site? Some are WAY too long.
We actually prefer well documented responses, David. It cuts out on allegations with no sources and namecalling
To each his own. "Well documented" is up for debate. :-X
Quote from: buckethead on September 09, 2009, 06:29:50 PM
It does sting indeed. I hope it was clear that I intended that for myself as much as anyone else.
You sound niether apathetic nor slothful.
And BTW never take up for Faye. You'll get a sermon either way you go. Might as well just agitate! ;)
Clear as a bell. ;)
Maybe if we all just ignore her, Faye will go away.
I'm sorry, maybe I should have clarified my story earlier.
While I have a job currently, this wasn't the case for a long time. I was a financial analyst with a national commercial brokerage for my final semester in school. I was to continue on full time after graduation, and was heavily invested in by the company. The office started to decline and my job offer was withdrawn. Keep in mind, this was one week before I was to graduate. For the next two months, I sent out two applications a day to over a hundred companies, and didn't stop until I had accepted an offer. I took a large pay cut from my initial offer, but that's better than eating refried beans on tortillas four meals a week.
So, it hasn't been a cake walk, but I DO believe that hard work will get Burn to Shine and others where they want to go. I'm not changing my stance now because that's what got me through those months and made those skipped meals and lonely nights bearable. So everyone can call me self centered if they want. I'd say what I'm feeling, but I'd rather not get banned.
Quote from: stephendare on September 10, 2009, 03:08:35 PM
I don't understand whats got you in such a dither
^Faye.
I hope to never have my lights cut off, but I did have 87 dollars to my name on the day of my first paycheck. You should write a book, Sdare. A memoir of life in Cowford, with the trials and tribulations of a small business owner.
You heard that too?!
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 10, 2009, 03:39:52 PM
Quote from: stephendare on September 10, 2009, 03:08:35 PM
I don't understand whats got you in such a dither
^Faye.
I hope to never have my lights cut off, but I did have 87 dollars to my name on the day of my first paycheck. You should write a book, Sdare. A memoir of life in Cowford, with the trials and tribulations of a small business owner.
Well at least you'll admit you know where I'm coming from. I might as well not even have a checking account. However, I do have an interview tomorrow!!!!!! Wish me luck! :D
Good luck to you. I think they will offer you double.!
Let's hope it's double the money.;)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 10, 2009, 02:39:08 PM
Maybe if we all just ignore her, Faye will go away.
Not a chance. Not enough women speaking up as it is ;)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 10, 2009, 02:39:08 PM
I'm sorry, maybe I should have clarified my story earlier.
While I have a job currently, this wasn't the case for a long time. I was a financial analyst with a national commercial brokerage for my final semester in school. I was to continue on full time after graduation, and was heavily invested in by the company. The office started to decline and my job offer was withdrawn. Keep in mind, this was one week before I was to graduate. For the next two months, I sent out two applications a day to over a hundred companies, and didn't stop until I had accepted an offer. I took a large pay cut from my initial offer, but that's better than eating refried beans on tortillas four meals a week.
So, it hasn't been a cake walk, but I DO believe that hard work will get Burn to Shine and others where they want to go. I'm not changing my stance now because that's what got me through those months and made those skipped meals and lonely nights bearable. So everyone can call me self centered if they want. I'd say what I'm feeling, but I'd rather not get banned.
Captain Zissou, I am so sorry hearing your job offer was withdrawn one week before you were to graduate. Good for you to send out applications to over one hundred companies. I can identify with that situation. I too was in the job market looking for my first job post graduation, during a recession. In 1981, I sent out almost 250 resumes, before finally landing a job nine months later. Those were desperate times, and I felt so lucky when it finally came together.
That's how I know, from personal experience, that hard work alone is not enough.
After my divorce I raised 5 children on my own, and have seen too many women barely surviving, no matter how hard they work. After all, as you know women still only make about 75% of what men make for the same work.
Quote from: FayeforCure on September 10, 2009, 07:53:08 PMAfter all, as you know women still only make about 75% of what men make for the same work.
I can agree with this - it might not be as much as 75% but I do know that it is considerably less.
Quote from: buckethead on September 10, 2009, 06:05:23 PM
Good luck to you. I think they will offer you double.!
Let's hope it's double the money.;)
w00t!
I took care of my kids after my divorce as well. Without a dime of child support from my ex-wife. And in all of the jobs that I have had in my adult life, women make equal pay as men. Just my personal experience. :)
Quote from: NotNow on September 10, 2009, 10:24:49 PM
I took care of my kids after my divorce as well. Without a dime of child support from my ex-wife. And in all of the jobs that I have had in my adult life, women make equal pay as men. Just my personal experience. :)
Did you do all of that (being Dad) and STILL have to pay the ex? I have had a similar experience. In many ways (probably most ways) the courts are very much stacked in favor of the mother.
With you on the pay of women as well. I cant think of an instance (in the past 15-20 years of my professional life) where a female makes less simply because she is a female
.
Yes, I learned all about "no fault" divorce. She got a boyfriend, got the house, got the car, and got alimony. I got the kids. So I figure that I won, in a way. But it definitely is not fair. Don't get me started on the divorce courts. The sexual bias is outrageous. EVERYTHING is set up to award the females.
Being from AL, I've seen the pay difference - it's for real. Maybe things are different here. I hope so.
Quote from: NotNow on September 10, 2009, 10:24:49 PM
And in all of the jobs that I have had in my adult life, women make equal pay as men. Just my personal experience. :)
This seems to be a ritual among Republicans: if they didn't see it, it probably didn't happen.
Women STILL don't make equal pay. I think this
summary of history regarding the lack of equal pay for women, should help you (BTW, that is one of the reasons I abhore the fact that Congress is still made up only 17% of women,...........many men like you, don't see the issues women deal with)
QuoteOn Pay Day, Women Are Still Not Equal
Opinion
By Nancy Ratzan
Published August 26, 2009, issue of September 04, 2009.
Print Email Share Author Archive Forward Forum
On August 26 we celebrated Women’s Equality Day â€" the 89th anniversary of the date on which women gained the right to vote through ratification of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution. Since then, women have sought economic equality, too, achieving a great victory in 1963 with the passage of the Equal Pay Act.
But it has been a rocky road, and we are at another milestone in the struggle for equal pay. When the 1963 law was passed, women earned 59 cents for every dollar men earned doing the same work. Now it’s still only 80 cents on the dollar. The Paycheck Fairness Act, which would greatly strengthen the Equal Pay Act, has been passed by the House and is now pending before the Senate.
A landmark bill, the 1963 Equal Pay Act gave hope to millions of working women that they would no longer be second-class citizens in the workplace. Along with passage of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act a year later, it meant perhaps the tide of wage discrimination was finally turning.
It didn’t. Years of hostile court rulings whittled away the law’s protections. Employers could defend themselves against charges of discrimination by citing a “factor other than sex†to justify disparities. That phrase has been stretched beyond recognition as judges adopted the interpretations urged on them by recalcitrant employers.
Paycheck fairness is not just a matter of principle. It’s a matter of survival. Inequality begins with minor discrepancies â€" young women age 15 to 24 earn 95% of what young men earn. By the time women reach age 45 to 64 â€" usually the prime years for higher earnings â€" women who work full-time, year-round earn only 72% of what men do. Not only are their current wages depressed, but their ability to provide for their children’s future and to retire with a decent income is severely compromised.
It’s clear that millions of women need a law that works. The first attempts to fix the Equal Pay Act go back to 1994. After 15 years of struggle, the hope is that with a new Congress progress is now possible.
The pending Paycheck Fairness Act would permit victims to obtain compensatory and punitive damages. It would make it easier to pursue class-action lawsuits. It would bar employer retaliation when victims share salary information among themselves. It would disallow such employer defenses as “the male employee had better salary negotiating skills.†And it would permit victims to use wage and salary comparisons between employees among different offices in the same county.
The Equal Pay Act needs new muscle in order to fulfill its original promise. Wage and salary inequity has continued long enough. While women have picked up 31 cents in 45 years, at this rate it will take another 29 years to reach parity â€" more than a century after women got the vote.
It’s past time for the Senate to act so that President Obama can sign a bill that opens a new chapter in enforcing the Equal Pay Act and offers new hope that wage inequality will no longer burden women trying to earn a fair day’s pay. And it’s surely way past time for Women’s Equality Day to be celebrated amid real equality.
http://www.forward.com/articles/112910/
Also, keep in mind that the party of "NO" members of our congressional delegation ( John Mica, Ander Crenshaw, Cliff Stearns) voted NO to the recently passed Lilly Ledbetter Act:
QuoteObama Signs Equal-Pay Legislation
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/lillyledbetteract.jpg)
Stephen Crowley/The New York Times
President Obama signed his first bill into law on Thursday, approving the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, a law named for Ms. Ledbetter, fourth from left, an Alabama woman who at the end of a 19-year career as a supervisor in a tire factory complained that she had been paid less than men.
SHERYL GAY STOLBERG
Published: January 29, 2009
WASHINGTON â€" President Obama signed his first bill into law on Thursday, approving equal-pay legislation that he said would “send a clear message that making our economy work means making sure it works for everybody.â€
Mr. Obama was surrounded by a group of beaming lawmakers, most but not all of them Democrats, in the East Room of the White House as he affixed his signature to the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, a law named for an Alabama woman who at the end of a 19-year career as a supervisor in a tire factory complained that she had been paid less than men.
After a Supreme Court ruling against her, Congress approved the legislation that expands workers’ rights to sue in this kind of case, relaxing the statute of limitations.
“It is fitting that with the very first bill I sign â€" the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act â€" we are upholding one of this nation’s first principles: that we are all created equal and each deserve a chance to pursue our own version of happiness,†the president said.
He said was signing the bill not only in honor of Ms. Ledbetter â€" who stood behind him, shaking her head and clasping her hands in seeming disbelief â€" but in honor of his own grandmother, “who worked in a bank all her life, and even after she hit that glass ceiling, kept getting up again†and for his daughters, “because I want them to grow up in a nation that values their contributions, where there are no limits to their dreams.â€
The ceremony, and a reception afterward in the State Dining Room of the White House, had a celebratory feel. The East Room was packed with advocates for civil rights and workers rights; the legislators, who included House and Senate leaders and two moderate Republicans â€" Senators Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe, both of Maine â€" shook Mr. Obama’s hand effusively (some, including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, received presidential pecks on the cheek) as he took the stage. They looked over his shoulder, practically glowing, as Mr. Obama signed his name to the bill, using one pen for each letter.
“I’ve been practicing signing my name very slowly,†Mr. Obama said wryly, looking at a bank of pens before him. He handed the first pen to the bill’s chief sponsor, Senator Barbara Mikulski, Democrat of Maryland, and the last to Ms. Ledbetter.
The ceremony also marked First Lady Michelle Obama’s policy debut; she spoke afterward in a reception in the State Dining Room, where she called Ms. Ledbetter “one of my favorite people.â€
Mr. Obama told Ms. Ledbetter’s story over and over again during his campaign for the White House; she spoke frequently as an advocate for him during his campaign, and made an appearance at the Democratic National Convention in Denver.
Now 70, Ms. Ledbetter discovered when she was nearing retirement that her male colleagues were earning much more than she was. A jury found her employer, the Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company plant in Gadsden, Ala., guilty of pay discrimination. But in a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court threw out the case, ruling that she should have filed her suit within 180 days of the date that Goodyear first paid her less than her peers.
Congress tried to pass a law that would have effectively overturned the decision while President George W. Bush was still in office, but the White House opposed the bill; opponents contended it would encourage lawsuits and argued that employees could delay filing their claims in the hope of reaping bigger rewards. But the new Congress passed the bill, which restarts the six-month clock every time the worker receives a paycheck .
Ms. Ledbetter will not see any money as a result of the legislation Mr. Obama signed into law. But what she has gotten, aside from celebrity, is personal satisfaction, as she said in the State Dining Room after the signing ceremony.
“Goodyear will never have to pay me what it cheated me out of,†she said. “In fact, I will never see a cent. But with the president’s signature today I have an even richer reward.â€
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/us/politics/30ledbetter-web.html
Could there possibly be other factors at work here besides discrimination? Seniority? Time removed from the workforce to raise children? etc...
Time spent copy pasting. ;D
buckethead, thanks to you I now have to clean coffee off my computer screen. :D
Kind of lumping people together there aren't you Faye? ALL Republicans? I was just sharing MY personal experience just like you did. It is true that there is pay equity in many professions, isn't it? You are exhibiting exactly the same behaviors that you so quickly criticize others for.
I am a Republican, yet I find myself in consideral agreement with many of your opinions.
I won't lump you into a group.
QuoteIt votes as a group, not just as individuals,
I dont... nor do most people I know from either party.
You are surely not suggesting democrats are a homogeneous, lock step party are you??
So that reasoning makes Faye's statement, "This seems to be a ritual among Republicans: if they didn't see it, it probably didn't happen." , OK? Or her assertion that many men like me don't understand what women go through? And then she offers an opinion piece as her reference? Really? Would that mean that ALL Democrats generalize and categorize people?
And that they have no idea what "reference" means? Of course not. And that is why she is wrong, and you are wrong to rationalize her statements.
Quote from: stephendare on September 11, 2009, 12:41:44 PM
Well the Republican Party is a group.
It votes as a group, not just as individuals, and can be judged by the record of its votes.
It is appropriate to discuss general political ideas to general political groups.
To suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.
So, we've been accurately associating you with the wack-jobs on the left. ok. thats your group.
STephen is not a "whack job".
The sooner we move beyond "group think" the better.
QuoteWhy pay the new guys full price? Let em beg for it, and save that money in the mean time.
Seems to me this is a practicle practice. I am sure some employers abuse it.
To answer the question though... simply seniority. Most pay grades for positions have ladders within the paygrade based upon performance and seniority. If you have been doing a job for 10 years it hardly seems fair that an unproven unknown should get the same pay. Seniority also tends to lend itself towards loyalty. If an employee is going to move on shortly after they arrive it is rather silly to pay them the same as the loyal, high seniority person.
Fayes post also has clearly shown rather dramatic progress towards the mythical equal pay equation... BTW I am 100% in favor of it! As I said before... there are other factors at work with the apparent discrepancy between the pay rates for men and women.
Quote from: buckethead on September 11, 2009, 12:54:42 PM
STephen is not a "whack job".
The sooner we move beyond "group think" the better.
It was tongue-in-cheek, buckethead. I was trying to make your point. Shoulda used a winky ;)
Discrimination is wrong... but attributing the pay gap solely to discrimination is also wrong.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Income_inequity_US.png)
There appears to be a pay gap between white women and hispanic women. While this seems unfair there are probably other factors at work here.
QuoteFor 2008 the U.S. Labor Department reported women's median wages to be 79.9% of men's, while women who have never married earn 94.2% of their unmarried male counterparts' earnings.
I wonder why there is almost no gap for unmarried women??? :o
QuoteWomen's pay relative to men's rose rapidly from 1980 to 1990 (from 60.2% to 71.6%), and less rapidly from 1990 to 2004 (from 71.6% to 76.5%), though young women have started to outearn young men in some large urban centers with young women earning up to 20% more than their male counterparts [3].
Interesting... :)
QuoteAccording to a study published in the June, 2008 issue of the American Sociological Review, women can make inroads into male-dominated management ranks as companies scale-back workforces via downsizing. The study shows that firms apparently make an effort to balance gender inequities during staff shakeups. Women entered management ranks at rates up to 25 percent higher than men in some grade levels after downsizing, which created supervisory openings as older male managers took company-offered buyouts. Overall, women accounted for nearly 36 percent of the company’s managers after restructuring, compared with an average of about 24 percent during the period from 1967 to 1993, according to the study.[4]
Seems our current downsizing is working out for women...
QuoteSociologist Reeve Vanneman and his colleagues calculated that if 1990 patterns held, if every labor market in the U.S. had men and women equally distributed across occupations, there would be no gender gap in earnings.
Women and men often make different choices: in college major, in hours and years worked, and in what jobs to take.
I'm sure it could not be this simple...
My point here is not that a wage gap exists... but that there are non-evil forces at work here. The gap that currently exists is residue from the bad old days of clear cut and obvious discrimination... and a multitude of other factors including the choices women make.
It is not caused by a secret society of fat white male republicans... :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 11, 2009, 12:22:35 PM
Could there possibly be other factors at work here besides discrimination? Seniority? Time removed from the workforce to raise children? etc...
Of course, but IME I've done the same exact job - same title - and the pay was considerably different.
And like racism, it apparently works both ways.
Quote from: buckethead on September 11, 2009, 12:54:42 PM
STephen is not a "whack job".
The sooner we move beyond "group think" the better.
Yeah, "group think" is what keeps people entrenched. This is why there is very liitle cross-over voting. Not many Reps have ever voted for ANY Dem.
Among dems there generally seems to be less group think going on, in fact dems often lack a unified voice, because there is a lot of individual thinking and yes, analysis being done by dems. I find many informed dems to be well-researched.
And don't worry, I used to be a Republican too.
Quote from: FayeforCure on September 11, 2009, 04:30:51 PM
Quote from: buckethead on September 11, 2009, 12:54:42 PM
STephen is not a "whack job".
The sooner we move beyond "group think" the better.
Yeah, "group think" is what keeps people entrenched. This is why there is very liitle cross-over voting. Not many Reps have ever voted for ANY Dem.
Among dems there generally seems to be less group think going on, in fact dems often lack a unified voice, because there is a lot of individual thinking and yes, analysis being done by dems. I find many informed dems to be well-researched.
And don't worry, I used to be a Republican too.
;)
Quote from: FayeforCure on September 11, 2009, 04:30:51 PM
Quote from: buckethead on September 11, 2009, 12:54:42 PM
STephen is not a "whack job".
The sooner we move beyond "group think" the better.
Yeah, "group think" is what keeps people entrenched. This is why there is very liitle cross-over voting. Not many Reps have ever voted for ANY Dem.
Among dems there generally seems to be less group think going on, in fact dems often lack a unified voice, because there is a lot of individual thinking and yes, analysis being done by dems. I find many informed dems to be well-researched.
And don't worry, I used to be a Republican too.
Your source for such authoritative comment? Or is it possible that this "think" on politics is just your opinion?
I don't know if I can agree with that opinion - I'd say I've seen plenty of that going on on the Dem side as well. I'm all for bringing in (and really giving them a chance) a third, fourth, fifth...party to shakes things up on both sides.
Burn, you have just hit the one issue on which all powers in the Republican and Democratic parties agree. They will do anything to prevent the rise of alternative parties.
Think about it. You and I, as taxpayers, pay for the primaries of the Republican and Democratic parties. Do you see the primary candidates of the Green, Libertarian, of States Rights Party on the ballot. No, they have to pay for and organize their own elections. In fact every presidential election cycle the Libertarian party has to sue almost every state in order to appear on the final ballot at all.
So much for "democratic" elections. It's like going into a restaurant and only being able to order fish or chicken.
I hear you!
Agreed.