QuoteJacksonville City Council panel cuts police budget
Sheriff announces dozens of layoffs
A popular program that’s been credited with improving Jacksonville police response times has become a budget casualty, Sheriff John Rutherford said Thursday.
The 92 community service officers in bright yellow uniforms will be laid off effective Oct. 1 as part of the sheriff’s plan for cutting his budget by 3 percent, as required by the City Council Finance Commitee.
During Thursday’s budget hearing, Rutherford asked the committee to exempt his department from the cuts, saying the loss of $8.3 million would force him to resort to layoffs.
Full Article:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-03/story/jacksonville_city_council_panel_cuts_police_budget
It is more than dozens. JSO will be laying off the 92 CSO’s, will not use the newly awarded federal money to hire 50 new officers, will lay off the 50 most recently hired officers, will also will be eliminating the department’s mounted unit and laying off those employees, as well as a parks officer and one public information officer and will eliminate $19,000 that the department pays to keep its accreditation. This WILL cause crimes such as murder and robbery to rise.
yeah...but, but, but.....we would have had to pay a few more dollars a month in taxes!!!!
Not the mounted unit!!!! I used to love when every once in a while you'd see them in Riverside. On a serious note this seems...excessive.
(http://www.geiserequine.com/Oklahoma_Unit.JPG)
Oklahoma, mounted patrols instructers school. Fort Reno, west of OKC was the last US mounted Cavalry base, today OK is home to the master academy for these services.
Mounted units have a huge advantage in large crowd conditions over foot or bike patrols. Horses instinctively WILL NOT stop a walk, trot, and run, right through the middle of a huge crowd. This is why they were effective for century's in warfare, and still are to some commando units.
So a guy shows up at the 4Th of July festival, in the center of the Landing he stabs a couple of obviously well healed older women, and vanishes with their purses. In the confusion he is making time out of the crowd, and foot patrol is just getting the story. Word goes out to all units. Bike patrol is on the riverwalk, talking to the horse patrol, behind the TU Center. Guess who will catch this bastard in that crowd? WE NEED MOUNTED PATROL in crowd control situations.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: fsu813 on September 03, 2009, 04:38:45 PM
yeah...but, but, but.....we would have had to pay a few more dollars a month in taxes!!!!
exactly....and clearly we can't ask taxpayers to do that in such a tough economy...so instead we'll lay off people who, coincidentally, are local taxpayers....wow, this is a sure-fire fix!
Of course, Nelson Cuba says no way to a small cut to pay.
3% isn't small to me. Also, Fire & Police have taken less than cost of living raises for the last five or six years when the City said they were broke then. The City failed to fund our pension for a few years because they "needed the money elsewhere". Now, the City wants us to take a pay cut because they are broke again. They want to cut our "excessive" pension (which is much less lucrative than theirs) which could sure use the money they withheld years ago (could we get that with interest please?). Over and over I see folks criticize the JSO on here. All we ask is that you look at the other comparable agencies in the State. Compare our compensation and pension with Orlando/Orange County and Tampa/Hillsboro County. Compare us with Miami/Dade County. Compare Officers per capita as well. Do that, then tell us who is being unreasonable here?
Quote from: NotNow on September 04, 2009, 12:02:06 AM
........ Also, Fire & Police have taken less than cost of living raises for the last five or six years when the City said they were broke then. ........
I have to correct you NotNow.....We have taken less than the cost of living raises for more than 20 years.
The cities long term view that investments in quality of life should be ignored become catastrophic when times are tough. We must have low taxes and keep all spending low then in tough times your budget has no room to cut. You can't say to the police we need a little help now because you have been crying wolf to them for twenty years. As crime goes up you will see more of an exodus to the outlying counties by young families. All the tax money you save by cutting the quality of life in Duval will be eclipsed by the loss of tax revenue which will be now based in St. Johns and Clay.
What I think is interesting is that over at the Mayor's office you have admin aids making $175,008(which is more than the mayor makes) a year.
I think there needs to be an across the board cut not just with JSO. I don't think it's smart to cut the JSO budget when we are the murder capital of the state.
Beside I don't want your Duval crime rolling into Clay. ;D
Save the mounted patrol! I love seeing them around town.
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2009, 01:11:33 AM
Seems like there might be a humanitarian reason to use tax dollars there, Notnow.
Too bad you don't believe in doing it.
What are you trying to say, StephenDare!? Just try saying it plainly.
This has nothing to do with a "humanitarian" gesture. It is about being a responsible employer. These city employees are being forced to shoulder the burden of a problem caused largely because of the same political entities that is calling for the cuts.
Now tell me what the "smart", "intellectual", "hip" unemployed sector view of the subject is. Feel free to call me names and label city employees with whatever birther , tenther label you can come up with. Look on trashy websites and find a really controversial cut & paste to "prove" your point. That should be easy with Police Officers. Endow us all with your opinion from whatever coffee shop you are haunting today.
Well, so much for a decrease in crime around the city.
Heights Unknown
My two cents: they should just raise the damn taxes. This was just stupid of the city council. Now they're cutting officers at a time when we need them the most. Our crime rates were finally beginning to get better. And we're going to loose the fed gift of 50 more. My opinion is you can never have too many officers on the streets. Think of the impact that just a few more officers dedicated to downtown could have. They would be able to catch a lot more people in the act of public drinking, urination, loitering, etc. and help clean up our downtown.
As for trying to cut salaries through the Unions, good effing luck. 9 months for negotiations, hardly. JEA could take several years and by then the economy could be completely turned around and on the rise.
As for paying more in taxes, I don't know about everyone else on here, but when I got my proposed tax notice from the city, I was paying less in taxes even with the mayor's proposed increase because the assessment on my property has gone down (a silver lining if you will). And when it does start to rise again, it will be limited by the Save Our Homes so I won't be paying as much as I did when I bought the place 4 years ago. I calculated and I could be living in my home 7-8 years after purchase and still be paying the same amount in taxes. Um, that sounds pretty good to me!
Deuce, I gotta agree with you - my homeowners taxes would only go up a tiny bit - something like $44 after adjustments and all. I'd much rather pay that than other means of action.
And having several people in positions that make 4x what I do in much the same capacity of work makes no sense to me, considering a lot of us would be willing and VERY able to do their job for less.
Heck, in this economy, a lot of people in general would be willing. Why reward them just for the privilege of working in the Mayor's Office?
I never understood what the community service officers did anyway.
They look like "rent-a-cops"
I do not feel bad for these cuts one bit.
I see way too many police bundled up on the side of the road creating speed traps around town. Let's fire them and those who order them to create such a nuisance around town. Why would we want to rasie our taxes to pay for people to stand on the side of the road and ticket us?
I am not bashing our police force as I think they overall do a fine and heoric job of trying to protect our city, but I see too much obvious miss allocation of resources and think that some cuts are perhaps not so bad in the face of our current economic situation.
"This WILL cause crimes such as murder and robbery to rise."
No, criminals will cause crimes to rise.
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2009, 10:57:29 AM
Funny how the issue changes when its your own family and ass on the line isn't it?
You do not believe that tax monies should be used in this manner. You don't even believe in Social Security, and have called it a Ponzi Scheme. Now that the administration of your own retirement plan has proven unsatisfactory, you want the tax payers to help you out.
Well Notnow. I hope we do. Because that is what good government does.
I know that you hope we don't, but I hope that you still take the money.
I'll repeat myself again since you keep repeating false information. The Federal Social Security system and the Jacksonville Police & Fire Retirement Fund are completely different devices designed for completely different purposes. I am not quite sure what "you don't believe in Social Security" means. I stated that the U. S. Constitution does not authorize the federal government to create and administer a forced retirement plan. I stated that the SCOTUS says that they can, so the issue is settled. I stated that the Police & Fire Pension is a private plan between an employer and it's employees. I stated that the City of Jacksonville withheld payment to the Police & Fire Pension Fund in several years and that is a large part of the reason for the current level of unfunded liability. Once again, I'll say it slowly, the City should make up for the money withheld to the Pension. This is not "charity" or "stimulus" or "welfare". This is what is owed employees. The management of the Police & Fire Pension has performed well above market averages for the duration of my career, and is quite satisfactory. We helped the City out, and now they want to not live up to their agreements.
Recheck those websites for some new spin.
Steven,
I think what's he's saying and either your not getting or not wanting to admit you get is, they need the tax dollars to REPAY the loans the city took out against The Police & Fire Pension. I'm not sure how someone as clever can't understand that. :-*
If You had a pension that your employer took money out of to finance requests for the city I think you'd want that money back too.
Quote from: gmpalmer on September 04, 2009, 12:31:09 PM
"This WILL cause crimes such as murder and robbery to rise."
No, criminals will cause crimes to rise.
Yeah but without the added manpower to help put the deterrence factor in there, this will cause people to commit more crimes if there is a reduction in law enforcement manpower.
Heights Unknown
a reduction in law enforcement manpower does not "cause people to commit more crimes."
Making bad decisions without regard to the future or their fellow man "causes" people to commit crimes.
semantics...the fact is that those who may be thinking about committing a crime are often deterred by the presence of law enforcement.
I like being helpful so here goes. 8)
Crime and criminals cause a greater need for police presence. Lack of police support does not cause rises in crime. Criminals will likely perpetrate more crime if they think there is little likelyhood of prosecution.
Semantics yes, but important.
QuoteMounted units have a huge advantage in large crowd conditions
Jax Jazz Festival, and FL/GA are they worth keeping the mounted units? 2, maybe 3 days a year? The City built new facilities when Monroe was rebuilt off I-95, why do we have a horse barn in downtown Jax? Why did we not move the horses to the equestrian facility? We only really need them twice a year, so why again do we have such waste? Perhaps because the horsies are pretty for the kids to look at, and without them, some would not know what a horse is, living in our metropolis of concrete and steel. Gimme a break!
If you purchased your house/dwelling, in the last few years, you have been screwed by the prop taxes and seen the value fall through the floor. I purchased mine in 1999, so I saw a small increase, but saw a decrease in all others due to Jim Overton realizing that values are falling. I have no problem with 12% increase. However, the mayor is an idiot who cannot just come out and tell us he needs 12%. Overton should send out the proposed taxes BEFORE the idiot mayor has a chance to open his mouth. Here I was worrying for months over my taxes, when 9 of 11 properties went down significantly.
ALL of the COJ's money is taxpayer money. ALL of every government's money is taxpayer money. So every contribution that the City makes to the Police & Fire Pension is taxpayer money. The City did not make their obligated contributions in certain recent years. Those contributions, had they been made, would have greatly reduced the unfunded liability percentage that the COJ is currently required to reduce. Therefore, the City is largely responsible for the money currently OWED (not charity, and not requiring any "humanitarianism") by the City.
EVERY public pension invests in the stock market. Again, the Police & Fire Pension performed well above the average during the last 18 months. The pension did lose money, but so did every other retirement fund that I know of including my own Roth IRA. The transfer of real property was negotiated between the City and the Pension in lieu of cash. The City had been trying to sell the property unsuccessfully and the Pension accepted the property and all of the obligations (read risks) that come along with it. The Pension was able to sell the property at a profit (good) and the City unloaded property it was trying to sell (good) and conserved their cash for other uses (good).
I do not agree with the bailout of car companies. To compare the obligation of the City to it's employee pension funds with the Federal give away bailouts of large banks and automobile manufacturers is obviously disingenuous. It is not remotely the same thing. The same kind of dishonesty allows one to declare himself "humanitarian" when one has no personal sacrifice or obligation.
Continuing to repeat false information does not make it any less false. You are just stomping your little feet again StephenDare!.
On the larger subject, the cut in the JSO budget is irresponsible and I believe that it could result in losing the momentum against crime that has been gained. Also, I was not in favor of the CSO program at its inception, but the program is designed and has been successfull at developing young people into Police Officers. To abandon these young men and women in the middle of their college semesters seems to me to be the wrong thing to do.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say StephenDare!. No one is arguing against what?
And what is with the personal attacks? Just argue your point.
So the private Police & Fire Pension fund is a socialist entitlement to taxpayer money? Really?
Your apparent inability to understand the difference between the local private pension fund supported by an employer and its employees and a Federal retirement/disability/aid to families supported by a national FICA tax is the crux of our differences. (On this issue) The authority of the Federal government is spelled out in the U.S. Constitution. The rules and regulations of the Jacksonville Police & Fireman's Pension Fund is spelled out in Florida State Statute and Jacksonville Municipal Ordinance. Perhaps I have not explained the differences well enough. You can Google those two sources and read for yourself and then we won't hijack this thread with a personal argument.
You are right, you don't get it.
Your continuing to name the "union" even though you have been reminded many times that the Police & Fire Pension is a State chartered entity that is not affiliated with any labor organization points out your dishonesty on this issue.
The City of Jacksonville should honor its obligations to its employees. My property taxes went up this year, what did your property taxes do?
Quote from: NotNow on September 05, 2009, 09:13:02 PM
The City of Jacksonville should honor its obligations to its employees. My property taxes went up this year, what did your property taxes do?
I'm pretty sure they haven't gone up yet....official notices don't come out until November...nevertheless, they are guaranteed to be lower for almost everyone in Duval Colunty
On another issue...Stephen, please explain why the City should be able to renege on a deal they signed....and why paying retirement/pensions with tax revenues is somehow unconstitutional?
The Notice of Proposed taxes came out in August. StephenDare! is going to pretend he owns property. Nice.
OK StephenDare!, whatever you say. Have a good night.
Quote from: stephendare on September 05, 2009, 09:36:17 PM
Good night Comrade. Sleep well knowing that the middle class workers will take care of you and your family.
I'm pretty sure that if your family needed the help they'd call JSO or JFR, (who are also middle class) so the same should be said to you.
Its pretty obvious to most people that the City, our beloved City, has scrimped and put the minimums into retirement for too long. I don't know if that Walt Bussell's thinking or Peyton's own thinking, but it has been wrong. If you or I put the minimum allowed into our 401k funds, would taxes, healthcare costs, and life's expenses only rise the same minimums?
I have no problem for the City giving the Pension fund buildings or lands that have value, in lieu of cash. Its pretty obvious that the City does not and will not have the cash for the fund for the next few years, so we will probably see more buildings traded for the cash to the Pension Fund. Something I have no problem with, seeing as how many of them just sit empty, and could be put to better use as have been described in other threads.