...on the Hogan's Creek Parks System!
The City of Jacksonville is undertaking a Visioning and Conceptual Master Plan for the revitalization of the 27-acre Hogans Creek Park system, which forms part of Downtown’s northern boundary. An important component will be studies to minimize flooding, caused, in part, by an ineffective stormwater management system, as well as strategies to clean up soil and waterway contamination in the area.
The creek and its parks were once vital links in Jacksonville’s development. It afforded a beautiful promenade connection to downtown, and drew visitors from the region as well as travelers from throughout the country. The Downtown Master Plan identifies the Hogans Creek park system as part of Jacksonville’s “Emerald Necklace†joining the city’s downtown-area communities to the river. It’s hoped that it can be a regional lifestyle, economic development and tourism asset once again.
The resident meeting is being held on September 14, from 5:30-8:30 p.m. (show up and stay for however long you are able), at the Karpeles at 1st & Laura Sts. If you are planning on attending, please RSVP to HDR’s Project Leader, Tom Atkins (598-8945), so he has a solid headcount and enough chairs.
Would "Instead of spending 100 million dollars to 'fix' and 'recreate' Metropolitan Park, Kids Campus, and Friendship Fountain Park, COJ just fixes the fountain and invests the rest of the money in 'downtown flex space' that already exists: the Hogan's Creek Park system," work?
Just to get discussion going...
1) Scap the long-on-the-shelf idea that occasionally floats out of the Mayor's office to turn the Park View Inn site into a retention pond with landscaping and a fountain. There are better connective uses for that land.
2) Fix the flooding on Liberty and Market Sts. The dog park is not a storm drain.
3) Improve the walkability and bikeability in and around the park, connecting the diverse "interest areas" from the dog parks, to ball fields, to play grounds.
4) Institute better policing and enforcement within the Klutho Park system.
5) Plan park improvements to work with future transit.
6) Incentivize and plan for surrounding development to work with the park. (i.e. restaurants with park-facing and accessible patios, walking/biking paths to connect pedestrian-friendly business areas with Main St. and the Park, etc.)
Good stuff, JaxbyDefault! Here are a few more things to consider.
7.) Work to make stronger visible and pedestrian scale connections (bike lanes, landscaping, wayfaring signage, two-waying streets, better lighting, etc.) on north/south corridors between the park and Duval Street.
8.) Encourage FCCJ and Bethel Baptist's future expansion plans to integrate with the park system.
9.) Follow Project for Public Spaces' Ten Principles for Creating Successful Squares. I know the entire Hogans Creek park system is not a "square", but the same principles apply.
http://www.pps.org/parks_plazas_squares/info/parks_plazas_squares_articles/squares_principles
10.). Consider of making the area closest to downtown, Bethel, FCCJ, Karpeles, into a public square type of atmosphere by using the location near the college, Main, State & Union for higher intensity pedestrian scale uses. Doing this you make the space a major gateway and focal point for DT and Springfield, plus you pull them back together to make one major urban core neighborhood as opposed to two separated by State & Union.
You guys have nailed this on the head. If I were better with words I would have said the exact same things. I would like to emphasize #4 as this is going to make visitors feel more relaxed and keep the areas looking top notch. Kudos to you guys!
Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 02, 2009, 12:48:36 PM
2) Fix the flooding on Liberty and Market Sts. The dog park is not a storm drain.
LOL - Yeah, I just got caught in the storm drain at lunch today. >:(
I really agree with the idea of getting FSCJ involved in their future expansion plans. It would really benefit them a lot.
As always, excellent points by Lakelander.
Numbers 9 and 10 are great ways to conceptualize the greenspace and adjacent development as a whole.
A successful revitalization of the park will require comprehensive planning (see 8 above), and would do well to identify "focus areas" for staged redevelopment. Which then begs the question, if you were designing the space for long-term, integrated use, where would you begin?
I'd nominate the Park View Inn, Orange St., Confederate Park area. Making this space priority would require addressing drainage and soil issues, adressing access issues to Springfield (two-way the block of Main between State and Union), connect the downtown and Main St. commercial corridors, aencourage use of existing but under/unutilized structures, and test incentives that would enourage private developers and land holders to conform to the overall vision for the spaces.
Also, if the city wants to effect real change and create a truly vital space, they will need to create a special zoning and development overlay for the park-adjacent areas.
Let me add, get rid of the invasive unprotected bird species (i.e. the Canadian geese) and relocate portions of the populations of the other birds. Their fecal matter is not only contributing to pollution in the form of runoff into the water, but also makes navigating the sidewalks a highly unpleasant affair. Plus one of the species is highly aggressive & territorial and will charge at people. While it will quickly back off, this is a deterrent to bringing small children to the park.
QuoteIncentivize and plan for surrounding development to work with the park. (i.e. restaurants with park-facing and accessible patios
Then they should probably turn down the requested rezoning of the property on Phelps near Ola. I think they are requesting light industrial, which sounds like another auto body shop to me.
Deuce, Are you sure that those birds are Canada Geese or are they Muscovy Ducks? Canadas are not usually agressive and Muscovys are. Canadas have longer necks and what looks like a chin strap. Muscovys are the ones with the ugly looking, red and black flesh around their face.
Muscovys are a domestic species and delicious!
It's not the Canadian geese that are aggressive, it must be the Muscovy's. The most aggressive are the all white ones.
To get rid of the CG, all the city needs to do is contact the United States Department of Agriculture Wildlife Services.
I didn't know the Muscovy's were delicious. Let's organize a duck hunt and have a neighborhood duck-a-cue.
We need to bring the rep point system back. Deuce's post gets 3 points from me.
I RSVP'd for three.....
QuoteWe need to bring the rep point system back. Deuce's post gets 3 points from me.
???
I don't know whether to say woo-hoo or doh!
I was at the first visioning session in July....and most of the suggestions here were mentioned, though I'm not sure they were recorded into such a good list! Sounds like it will be a good follow up session. From what we saw in July, the company that is doing the design work has done some other urban green spaces which have had some amazing results in bringing people into the core and enjoying it!
Unfortunately I will be out of town but could someone please suggest for me that they dredge Hogans creek? Great start on the list so far!
So, did anyone actually show up today?
I just got home and was hoping to see a summary too. Anyone who can share?
I went yesterday. About 15 showed up, they were expecting more. Where was everyone?
It was interesting & interactive. Looking for input for short term & long terms plans for the parks.
There is another meeting today at 3pm for business heavy hitter in the area, i think 30 people are expected. Anyone is welcome, but it'll be geared more for them today.
Good discusssions.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to make either meeting. Hopefully, someone who participates on this site will have the opportunity to make it and contribute some of the ideas that have been discussed in this thread.
I am going today.
I thought the meeting today went very well.
some good thoughts there,fsu813!
I know that progress won't happen quickly enough for some, but let's hope that these ideas start becoming a reality. I heard something about the idea of a round-a-bout in the area of the Park View Inn area i thought was pretty cool.
Some of the ideas have been discussed many times before and some from this board were mentioned, so keep the ideas flowing!
I've heard the roundabout idea in the past and I'm not too crazy about it. I hate the idea of wasting valuable urban core property by adding more asphalt and non-property tax contributing passive and unusable green space. However, I'm glad that PPS is participating in this process. Their experience should help lead to a concept that better utilizes the parks, creek and the surrounding area.
I get that lake, what would you do with that area?
I believe its important to identify, preserve and work to best utilize your existing assets. While the Park View is not an asset, the traffic count on that corner is for anyone who wants to see additional retail options in the urban core. The intersections of Main with State & Union carry more traffic per day than the most congested portions of Southside Blvd.
If we're going to take out the Park View, that becomes a prime full city block for infill retail and it should be marketed as such. Imo, a multi-story mixed use development with street level retail would be a much more effective gateway to Springfield and pull the historic district and downtown together than a round-a-bout ever would. Plus, such a development would have to pay property taxes to the city. A round-a-bout and non-usable green space would not.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1305-p1010577.JPG)
An infill mixed-use project taking advantage of a centralized full city block, with a high traffic count, would be better for both districts and the parks than a round-a-bout.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1293-p1010506.JPG)
As for green space, we have more than enough in the form of the existing parks lining Hogans that we have not properly maintained for half a century. Before spreading out resources to create more green space, we're better off improving the mile of parks already in place.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/561501839_5NmWW-M.jpg)
The Indianapolis Canal Walk (above) takes up less space than the Hogans Creek park system. Instead of expanding the green space, use the available funds to clean up the park space so that it is just as clean and pristine as the Indianapolis Canal Walk, San Antonio Riverwalk, etc.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568922956_nx7eR-M.jpg)
So what would I do with the couple of million it would take to construct a round-a-bout and landscaping? I'd move those infrastructure funds to help get a real streetcar system into Springfield, connecting it with downtown.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/624234623_j5Lqo-M.jpg)
All money to expand roads in the urban core should be shifted to improving mass transit, imo.
^ I concur, Lakelander.
The Park View Inn site needs to be walkable/urban-friendy, high density, commercial or mixed use. It's too valuable a property to leave off of the tax rolls. It would become even more valuable to the city if the block of Main between State and Union were two-way. It would be ideal if whatever was built there addressed both downtown and the park area. Bonus if it worked as part of a comprehensive development plan that related the properties across Orange St., the JEA properties, FSCJ, and the feeder blocks of the Main Street commercial corridor through Springfield.
The idea of a roundabout evidences the same poor urban planning (trees and medians everywhere!) as did the old pond-with-fountain idea for that space. How can a city that is crying about a lack of funds so greatly misunderstand the relationship between commercial development and long-term tax revenue?
I can only hope that Lakelander is screaming this same info at the top of his lungs at anyone who will listen and can do something tangible with the suggestions. And then hope some more it is acted upon. A roundabout? WTH?
Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 17, 2009, 12:17:09 AM
^ I concur, Lakelander.
The Park View Inn site needs to be walkable/urban-friendy, high density, commercial or mixed use. It's too valuable a property to leave off of the tax rolls. It would become even more valuable to the city if the block of Main between State and Union were two-way. It would be ideal if whatever was built there addressed both downtown and the park area. Bonus if it worked as part of a comprehensive development plan that related the properties across Orange St., the JEA properties, FSCJ, and the feeder blocks of the Main Street commercial corridor through Springfield.
The idea of a roundabout evidences the same poor urban planning (trees and medians everywhere!) as did the old pond-with-fountain idea for that space. How can a city that is crying about a lack of funds so greatly misunderstand the relationship between commercial development and long-term tax revenue?
Wow, thanks for your input JaxByDefault! I do concur. How does the COJ deal with the environmental concerns under the Park View inn?
It seems that this area in conjunction with Confederate Park and FCCJ is the core issue to deal with to make everything else in the area a success.
I hate to say that i think there are more important issues than what type of birds flock to the creek.
Quote from: Deuce on September 02, 2009, 02:08:01 PM
Let me add, get rid of the invasive unprotected bird species (i.e. the Canadian geese) and relocate portions of the populations of the other birds. Their fecal matter is not only contributing to pollution in the form of runoff into the water, but also makes navigating the sidewalks a highly unpleasant affair. Plus one of the species is highly aggressive & territorial and will charge at people. While it will quickly back off, this is a deterrent to bringing small children to the park.
QuoteIncentivize and plan for surrounding development to work with the park. (i.e. restaurants with park-facing and accessible patios
Then they should probably turn down the requested rezoning of the property on Phelps near Ola. I think they are requesting light industrial, which sounds like another auto body shop to me.
Quote from: Sigma on September 17, 2009, 04:35:42 PM
Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 17, 2009, 12:17:09 AM
^ I concur, Lakelander.
The Park View Inn site needs to be walkable/urban-friendy, high density, commercial or mixed use. It's too valuable a property to leave off of the tax rolls. It would become even more valuable to the city if the block of Main between State and Union were two-way. It would be ideal if whatever was built there addressed both downtown and the park area. Bonus if it worked as part of a comprehensive development plan that related the properties across Orange St., the JEA properties, FSCJ, and the feeder blocks of the Main Street commercial corridor through Springfield.
The idea of a roundabout evidences the same poor urban planning (trees and medians everywhere!) as did the old pond-with-fountain idea for that space. How can a city that is crying about a lack of funds so greatly misunderstand the relationship between commercial development and long-term tax revenue?
Wow, thanks for your input JaxByDefault! I do concur. How does the COJ deal with the environmental concerns under the Park View inn?
It seems that this area in conjunction with Confederate Park and FCCJ is the core issue to deal with to make everything else in the area a success.
There are brownfield programs out there that can be taken advantage of. Also, regardless of if its a building, a roundabout or a pond, if the building is demolished and contamination is exposed, it will have to be cleaned.
Btw, here is an infill development on a former brownfield site in Miami. If you can get this built on an old railyard, we should be able to handle what ever Hogans Creek throws at us.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4046-p1070968.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4048-p1070967.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4049-p1070960.JPG)
Midtown Miami master plan
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/MidtownMiami.jpg)
The EPA used to focus on just the clean-up of brownfield sites (information at: http://www.epa.gov/brownfields/) but has recently launched pilot programs for sustainable redevelopment of brownfields (http://www.epa.gov/brownfields/sustain.htm#green), too.
COJ does not appear to have much input here.........or is it just me? There seems to be lots that can be done but has not for whatever reasons! Hogans Creek has potential and if there is infrastructure there that has not been taken care of, that needs to change. I don't see alot of input from the City........vision and planning appear to be lacking but then thats nothing new!
Our city always seems to want to do something NEW and let the old stuff deteriorate. Something to do with Mayor's egos I bet. Friendship Fountain used to be spectacular, but now is just a pond with a spray. Hogan Creek and Confederate Park were beautiful, now trashy, but we want to spend $29 million on Metropolitan Park?
We should maintain what we have before starting on new, grandiose projects that "leave a legacy."
Dog Walker I do concur! Pouring more money into something new and exciting is all fine and dandy but what about what is already there. We need to take care of what is here first then go on to other grand projects! That's part of Johnny's problem...........no business acumen.......no vision and no plan! He is more concerned about a legacy when he should be more concerned about now and planning for the future......silly boy!