Has anyone noticed the newly planted like oaks set in about 2' x 2' planters in front of the Dyal Upchurch building? I am not a landscape architect but I know that live oaks are about the worst choice for a tree to flourish in tight urban environment. Without room for the roots to grow the trees will decline in a few years and require a tremendous amount of pruning. The crown of these trees already appears to be encroaching on the building.
You can see examples of live oaks in decline because of poor placement all over Downtown and other parts of the city, most notably San Marco and Southpoint. There are other species of trees that could flourish and provide shade in urban environments. How about a high rise oak?
Anyhow, I sent an email to the city with no response. I hate to see us repeat the mistakes of the past. I am hoping that I am wrong and these trees are high rise oaks and I just do not have the experience to differentiate.
Another reason for wider sidewalks. Savannah has oaks that are maturing nicely. Why? Generally, more space for them to grow. We can't do as much with narrow walkways. We need to take out a lane of parking or street traffic and turn it over to pedestrians and landscaping. That should help attract pedestrians and discourage autos/help mass transit.
Of course, this would make too much sense so don't expect to see it anytime soon.
Savannah scenes courtesy MJ:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2344-p1000485.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2352-p1000475.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2368-p1000484.jpg)
Although, in this pix, Savannah managed to have thriving trees (not sure they are oaks, though) on a narrower sidewalk. Maybe Jax just doesn't have a green thumb. Is Savannah's gardener available?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2357-p1000642.jpg)
The 3rd pic is Southern Magnolias. If you look closely, right above the signpost you can see one of the blooms - super fragrant but often way out of reach!
The last pic is a row of Crape Myrtles. While not the best for overhead shade, they certainly look nice :)
Savannah has done it right. Planted or kept trees that need lots of room to grow in wide medians or parks and planted trees that don't require much space along their sidewalks.
Live oaks, magnolias and other large trees do not belong downtown in a 2x2 planter......stupid! Bring on the Washingtonian palms....see the existing Bay St streetscape.
I hate palm trees!
FSUjax, I hope that was a joke. I would rather see bamboo all over downtown than palms.
HAHA I must agree, I'm pretty sure Duval county has used enough palms on every other major roadway in Jacksonville, we don't need anymore Downtown.
Part of the reason for use of palms is the fact that unlike shade tree, palms don't have roots that dig up sidewalks and roadways. They're also easier to manage than shade trees as most have few disease problems, they're less messy when the fruiting parts that appear each year are cut back, and they also don't hide buildings as much as shade trees do.
I'm not a fan of the use of Live Oaks right up against a building. Theses will eventually become too large and tear up the sidewalks, create a lot of leaf debris in the spring, and allow moisture to stay longer and the green stuff can grow on the building. You want to see a bad usage of Live Oaks, look across to the Modis Tower, enough said.
The removal of te trees from the BOA Tower last year didn't settle with me at first. However, I like the use of minimal holly trees, allowing for a full view of the tower from street level and looks excellent.
you make some very good points... i still think there is a better alternative to palms. then again the right night lighting can make just about anything look better.
Considering our climate, if palms can't provide decent shade, they're a negative if the goal is to create an urban environment where people will walk on the sidewalks. So we have to decide if we want a downtown that looks good driving by in an air-conditioned car or one that provides for pedestrian comfort and usability.
I love Palm trees. Use them where people dont need to walk since people need to be in the shade so. Palm trees are also cleaner than most trees because theres no leaves dropping everywhere.
A fact of the matter is, shade trees do not belong directly adjacent to building in the downtown core. Now, if there was a median in the middle of Bay Street, then that would be a good spot, not on sidewalks. That's part of the reason the owners of the BOA Tower removed them, they were tearing up the sidewalks, were messy with leaves and dead limbs, allowed for birds to nest and produced a mess with droppings, and hid the the rest of the tower from view on the sidewalk. Before anyone says, well, what about those in Avondale. Well, those are shorter buildings and have been trimmed to clear the buildings' roof lines. That just can't work downtown, for the msot part.
In these locations, small trees and palm trees work well. For those that don't like palm trees, well, you're SOL, this is Florida. They want more variet of palms that can tolerate our climate and like them as well. In place of this live oaks, they could've used the state tree, Sabal Palmetto, as they grow relatively straight up, easy to keep maintained, and are nice for smaller spaces.
We'll see how these trees do, but am not expecting a miracle.
I don't understand how something as simple as providing a little shade for your pedestrians along a public sidewalk becomes so difficult. Maybe we should call up some these cities to find out how they deal with this issue without roots destroying their sidewalks?
Baltimore
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592129031_mpXgs-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592131923_95kWz-M.jpg)
Indianapolis
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570693491_gp7jz-M.jpg)
San Diego
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/567314477_3eGMA-M.jpg)
Charleston, WV
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/484860659_BUKh5-M.jpg)
Orlando
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453952500_3cLhy-M.jpg)
St. Petersburg
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8078-p1170751.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8064-p1170728.JPG)
Gainesville
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7501-p1150787.JPG)
Providence
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5992-p1120341.JPG)
Hoboken
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5863-p1130276.JPG)
Fernandina Beach
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4427-p1090394.JPG)
Winter Park
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2953-p1030126.jpg)
Lakeland
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2774-p1050311.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2768-p1050268.JPG)
What are these cities doing to provide shade for their pedestrians that Jax can't?
Part of the reason is that certain trees are known for having what I call "surface runners". These are roots that develop, over time, along the surface, or close to, and begin to pry up asphalt or concrete, or kills grass as the go. Now, the live oaks pictured are at the point where they're not a big issue, when they get older though, the problem becomes a bigger issue.
My main issue is that this variety of tree doesn't belong against a building. Live oaks are a crown spreading tree and their full beauty and size are attained when not confined. Another matter is that these holes that they're planted in are not large enough to allow for full trunk size to be attained. This is not good at all for the overall health of the tree, and will likely have to replaced after it either dies, or gets infected with a disease because of non-optimal growing conditions. This in turn will cost more to provide maintenence and eventual replacement.
All I'm trying to say is that there are other types of trees that can grow better in these kind of conditions, and even hybrids that can provide shade and also thrive. Live oaks are not good choices for a downtown environment as they're not likely to attain the normal characteristics associated with this tree. I just hope some see what I'm trying to get at. Businesses and property owners also want better visibility, and having a large shade tree is likely to diminish that somewhat. Look what they did in Avondale, a serious, horrible trim job to the live oak trees there.
What type of trees should be used?
Quote from: Lunican on September 02, 2009, 10:05:52 PM
What type of trees should be used?
Palms, apparently as they grow rather stright and have rather compact root systems.
It is sort of difficult when most native varities here have surface running roots systems due to the type of soil here. They have adapted to not really needing a deep tap root because more than enough rain is provided most years for regular growth. Trees are not really meant to grow with concrete covering most of their root system.
The trees being used are ok, but do not expect them to look how they should or past 30 years or so.
Give me a little bit, I'm trying to come up with a firm database.
So we dont have any streets downtown similar to those posted?
Here is a list of trees good for downtown. I compiled this based on hardiness, drought tolerance, size, and overall characteristics good for the area.
Lemon bottlebrush
Dahoon Holly ( E. Palatka Holly), same type that is around BOA Tower
Laurel Oak, will likely not live over 30yrs and need replacement
Live Oak, will not attain full characteristics and optimum shade potential due to confinement
Crape/Creepe Myrtle
Southern Magnolia
Little Gem Magnolia, this is more optimal as it stays smaller and can tolerate smaller space
Saucer Magnolia, this is deciduous, not evergreen like two above
Oleander, toxic nature prevents many from planting it, but is extremely durable in urban environments
Sycamore, tolerable, but large leaves and seed pods can be messy
Chinese/Drake Elm, one of best due to fast growth and tolerable of urban environments
Outside of those, I'm not very sure about many more that can tolerate the heat and wetness of Florida summers. That is one of the biggest issues is that confines the availability of more trees.
Oleanders will not provide the shade most are looking for. I think they are best for highways and road side. Chinese/Drake are good and are native trees. River Birch trees maybe a good choice they are native also and there are a few planted along the riverwalk near the YMCA.
Oleander can be trained into a small tree, but as said, I'm not thinking it would be a great choice, mainly due to the fact a handful of leaves will kill a small person.
River birch was given the name for that reason, it likes wet conditions. A downtown sidewalk is not a good location for them, unless irrigation sprinklers are installed.
We could plant fir/christmas trees and save on decorating for the holidays! ;)
Youre wrong about River Birch I have my Florida gardening book with me. It can tolerate drier soils.
Quote from: stjr on September 02, 2009, 11:16:59 PM
We could plant fir/christmas trees and save on decorating for the holidays! ;)
BOA did that with the Holly's they have. Hell, they're lit up all year long!
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 02, 2009, 11:18:22 PM
Youre wrong about River Birch I have my Florida gardening book with me. It can tolerate drier soils.
It can, but it prefers regular water as any extended dry period, it starts dropping leaves like it is October.
My parents have two large River Birch trees in TN, and they were doing that when I was there early last month.
Quote: "River birch prefers moist, acidic soils. Once established, it does fine in normal garden soils, but may wilt under drought conditions."
Oleander is poisonous? Only if you eat the leaves right?
The entire plant is poisonous. Oleander (Nerium) and Foxglove (Digitalis) when synthesized are beneficial for the treatment of heart failure, but ingestion of the plant materials can be very lethal and numbing.
There are isolated times when pollen counts in Oleander are very high, and the pollen is so thick that it can create a "film" on the ground. Breathing in enough pollen particles in the air (unlikely... you'd have to be surrounded by an entire grove of the stuff for quite some time), or even eating honey where bees can collect ample amounts of pollen from the Nerium genus is dangerous. Breathing in smoke fumes when burning Oleander leaves, stems, etc. is also toxic.
On the flip-side, they are quite beautiful specimens, capable of handling salt spray and hot, dry conditions (perfect for a downtown environment or at the beach), and the flowers have a pleasant honey-like fragrance (as if anyone would want to get close enough to one after reading this!). The colors of the blooms and the branches / leaves give a very tropical or "oasis" look to the specimen, and the constant flowering characteristics make it an attractive choice for horticultural enthusiasts (garden geeks such as myself). I have enjoyed growing these since moving to Florida, but would never grow them near fruits or vegetables, where the tiny seeds or pollen can get mixed in and end up being mashed and eaten unintentionally.
While I've never seen anyone downtown grazing on any plants that they come across along sidewalks... the main concern would be children or people who break the plants apart by the leaves or stems and absorb the saps through the skin into the bloodstream.
Quote from: Lunican on September 02, 2009, 10:05:52 PM
What type of trees should be used?
Besides the trees mentioned, the single trunk Natchez Crape Myrtle would be a good choice.
Which species are homeless pee (and do-do too) resistant?
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2009, 11:46:52 PM
Spanish Bayonettes and Briars
The century plant, pampas grass, and holly bushes do wonders too. So nasty, you can't hardly trim them with tools. Ouch!Pampas grass:(http://www.sspictures.fsnet.co.uk/images/gbflowers/pampas%20grass.jpg)
Pampas grass can often times make a better fence / hedge than razor and barbed wire combined ;D
Quote from: braeburn on September 07, 2009, 05:02:04 PM
Pampas grass can often times make a better fence / hedge than razor and barbed wire combined ;D
You want an nice fence, bayonet shrubs, can see why the spanish used that as a fine fence