(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/2869764705_ff45f85525.jpg)
Watching the first half of the Jags - Eagles game, I started thinking about us being right behind Philly as the number 3 city on the East Coast. I have seen people on here apologise over and over for this "misleading information." But hold on to your hats boys and girls, is it REALLY that misleading, or does some corporate mogul have to use his brain just a tad to fully understand us? Over and over in our learning from other cities, we see comments that, "yeah we're big, but not really."
Ever stop to think about that? Who says in order to call a place a city, it must be wall to wall concrete? What rule says we need 5 Million people to be a REAL city. Bull Shit! I can take anyone in Duval county to any edge of this metro you want and show you houses, 7-11 stores, Krystal's, and Winn-Dixie. Would be be a REAL City if that were condos, BP stations, White Castle and Albertsons? So we have about 800,000 within our city limits, yeah, the whole damn county because we are perhaps the most sprawled urban area in the country. We also find ourselves in that position because the original city limits were DEAD CENTER of our county and for race, white flight, taxes, utilities, or whatever, we had long outgrown them.
We didn't pull some illegal slight of hand so we could run with big dogs, we are a pretty damn big dog ourselves. In spite of our sometimes less then inspired leadership, we did something no one had done before, CONSOLIDATION. Like it or hate it, we did it, right out in the sunshine. I for one having lived through it think today we are far better off then we would have been without it. Today it seems as if our leadership has slid back into the sewer and we are doing our best to wake this city up. Not this town, THIS CITY. A BIG CITY and I'll bet my life on it, it's going to suprise the most optimistic boosters among us and rocket upward.
So 1.3 Million persons call Jacksonville home, cool, that means a full 500,000 of them are in our suburban counties. Gee mom, just like Los Angeles, only friendlier. Someone please tell me how many hundred thousand we need in Nassau, St. Johns, Baker and Clay, so we can call them cities too? Are they as much a part of our metro as Burbank is to LA? or Sanford is to Orlando?
I'm sick of hearing the very people that should be standing on these facts and defending them to all comers back down and make yet another apology for Jacksonville. As of tonight, from here on, WE ARE THAT CITY, every damn inch of it. No excuses, no lies, believe it or leave it...
That's my view...
OCKLAWAHA
I stand with you in your call to arms. When do we storm the Bastille/City Hall?
Using city limits numbers is always misleading. City limits are totally arbitrary ...*particularly* in Jacksonville, because it's such an outlier.
Metro figures are the appropriate measure of what the majority of people think is a "city" population.
Quote from: Joe on August 27, 2009, 10:15:12 PM
Using city limits numbers is always misleading. City limits are totally arbitrary ...*particularly* in Jacksonville, because it's such an outlier.
Metro figures are the appropriate measure of what the majority of people think is a "city" population.
Then you can say the same for Denver, Louisville, Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, others that are Metro gov't. You can also toss OKC in there because it's spread over 4 counties and it's number are skewed as well.
When it comes down to it, people can say Metro gives a better indication, whatever, city limits is what I go by, and many other agencies do as well.
I agree with Joe. We can flaunt the municipal city limit numbers all we want but it only sets people up for a let down when "smaller" cities like San Francisco, Boston, DC, Miami....insert name here are compared. I go by urban area numbers because they are structured in a manner of where they give more of an apples to apples evaluation.
QuoteThen you can say the same for Denver, Louisville, Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, others that are Metro gov't. You can also toss OKC in there because it's spread over 4 counties and it's number are skewed as well.
All of these cities are second tier american cities at best. Anyway, so what if we are a second tier city? No one should take it as an insult. We are what we are and we should do what we can to be the best we can be.
Here Here Ock! I am with you my Man! When are we going to mass the troops and invade City Government and run that thing like it should be run?
Heights Unknown
Both sides of the argument makes sense to a degree. However, I agree with Ock.
(http://www.leasingluxury.com/cities/jacksonville/images/JacksonvilleSkyline.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 27, 2009, 10:34:37 PM
I agree with Joe. We can flaunt the municipal city limit numbers all we want but it only sets people up for a let down when "smaller" cities like San Francisco, Boston, DC, Miami....insert name here are compared. I go by urban area numbers because they are structured in a manner of where they give more of an apples to apples evaluation.
QuoteThen you can say the same for Denver, Louisville, Indianapolis, Nashville, Lexington, others that are Metro gov't. You can also toss OKC in there because it's spread over 4 counties and it's number are skewed as well.
All of these cities are second tier American cities at best. Anyway, so what if we are a second tier city? No one should take it as an insult. We are what we are and we should do what we can to be the best we can be.
Lake, rather then back down and apologising to the guy who comes here and says, "I thought Jacksonville was bigger then Miami, San Francisco, Boston, DC... insert name here." My point is, as true JAXSON'S and boosters of our city the instant answer should be, "You would be correct, we are bigger then XXX, and unlike XXX, Jacksonville comes with the benefit of being a great metropolitan center without the complications of being lost in a sea of Cities. With about a half million people in the surrounding metro area, you will find it is quite easy to enjoy a true cosmopolitan atmosphere, at dinner downtown, and still get out on the beach for a solitary walk by sunset. All totaled, we are 1.3 million people in our own little corner of paradise, exactly half way between Miami and Atlanta, without the stress of either."
So lets quit the apologetics for our city as Lake says, we ARE what we ARE and HEY IT AIN'T BAD. We have 800,000+ within the City Limits, I don't care if they encompass just 3 miles or 3,000 miles, WITHIN OUR CITY LIMITS we are number 3 on the East Coast. By the same token, I'm not going to back down when someone says but your metro is only......yadda, yadda. I DON'T CARE that we are number 45 m/l in the US Metro counts, I remember when we didn't have 250,000, in my lifetime. So don't tell me we aren't passing our competition, one industry, one office, or one rail car, or container, at a time. If you have a problem with that, let me help you, number 3 comes in between number 2, and number 4, got it now?
As a parting shot over the bow, I'll add, "We know that Miami, is glitzy, and along with Orlando, Tampa and Ft. Lauderdale, they are America's playground..., we ought to know, because we financed and built them." THAT'S WHAT MAKES JACKSONVILLE SO SPECIAL. This message is NOT misleading, it is, however, LEADING. (http://libertyrecoveryinc.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/hyatt-regency-jacksonville.20230626.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 27, 2009, 11:43:26 PMLake, rather then back down and apologising to the guy who comes here and says, "I thought Jacksonville was bigger then Miami, San Francisco, Boston, DC... insert name here."
According to the latest census estimates we are the 40th largest metropolitan area in the US. From my personal travels, it looks and feels that way also. Looking at things through rose colored glasses is just not my trait. I'm a guy who likes to tell it like it is. However, I don't consider the truth as backing down or apologizing.
I rarely come across someone (over 21) who thinks Jacksonville is bigger than places like Atlanta, Miami or Boston. Those that do, typically have no concept of what an urban area is.
QuoteMy point is, as true JAXSON'S and boosters of our city the instant answer should be, "You would be correct, we are bigger then XXX, and unlike XXX, Jacksonville comes with the benefit of being a great metropolitan center without the complications of being lost in a sea of Cities.
With about a half million people in the surrounding metro area, you will find it is quite easy to enjoy a true cosmopolitan atmosphere, at dinner downtown, and still get out on the beach for a solitary walk by sunset. All totaled, we are 1.3 million people in our own little corner of paradise, exactly half way between Miami and Atlanta, without the stress of either."
My point is, I can be a booster of the city without inflating statistics. For example, check out our neighborhoods section (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/neighborhoods). You'll find a couple of years of articles I've written that showcase our assets without mentioning who's the big dog on the block by population.
With me, its all about the quality of life aspect. City/Metro size is irrelevent when trying to sell someone on a community's livability assets. For example, I prefer a place like Charleston or Savannah to one like Houston or Phoenix. However, from a professional perspective I believe its best to understand and accept the deck of cards you're dealt and go from there. If you can't get past the basics, you'll fail to succeed in the end.
QuoteSo lets quit the apologetics for our city as Lake says, we ARE what we ARE and HEY IT AIN'T BAD. We have 800,000+ within the City Limits, I don't care if they encompass just 3 miles or 3,000 miles, WITHIN OUR CITY LIMITS we are number 3 on the East Coast. By the same token, I'm not going to back down when someone says but your metro is only......yadda, yadda. I DON'T CARE that we are number 45 m/l in the US Metro counts, I remember when we didn't have 250,000, in my lifetime.
Move over New York, Yakutat City, AK is the largest city in the U.S. ;D
As asked in other quarters, does size really matter or is it the quality of the experience? :)
If we focus on our quality of life, everything else will take care of itself: economic development, self-esteem, recognition, being a world-class city, an attractive place to move to, etc.
Unfortunately, too often, Jacksonville (and Florida) relies on slogans, gimmicks, and quick fixes to address its "ills". These are often short sighted and don't hold water for the long term. Just witness the City Council's last minute jump into the budget process were uninformed Council members are instant experts toying with the essence of our City in a relative few minutes of time - unconcerned and unaware of what the long term consequences of their actions may really be. So continues the most reliable of Jacksonville traditions - going for the superficial and glamor, avoiding the responsible and thoughtful, and never planning or visioning. We are destined at this rate to spin wheels for the foreseeable future without relief. There is no "wake up" in sight.
The City Council will spend more time talking reactively about Jags tickets, parades, minor commissions and boards, self congratulatory "honors", incentives for more growth, decorating offices, pointing fingers, etc. than they will addressing proactively quality of life issues such as education, safety, culture, recreation, environment, transit, health care, etc.
For the record, Denver and Nashville both consolidated befoe Jacksonville. Albeit, Denver city/county is MUCH, MUCH smaller geographical than nearly all of US counties.
San Francisco (1856), New Orleans (1874) and Philadelphia (1854) also consolidated with their counties before Jacksonville.
Btw, great points Stjr.
We are a big city, I agree. I would not have moved here if Jacksonville was a small town. When I considered my move, I didn't look at cities like Charleston or Savannah, because they are not big cities. There are so many measures of what makes a big city. For the US, we hit that mark in total population. I believe we also hit it in metro population. The only measure we might fail on is population density.
In my wacky opinion, What Ock is saying about Jacksonville and it's city limit and consolidation is the same as what lake is saying about metro area. Many metro areas are about proximity, for instance if St. Petersburg and perhaps Clearwater wasn't so close to Tampa, Tampa would be the same size as Jax. However, the fact is both Clearwater and St. Pete are within Tampa's metro area just like the fact that the consolidated city of Jax boost our populous.
City limit vs metro area either side you fall on it's factual. So why not embrace the consolidation and run with it. Miami uses the convienence of Ft. Lauderdale to boost it's metro numbers just like we use our entire county to boost our city numbers. What is the difference? They are both facts!
Quote from: Seraphs on August 28, 2009, 06:18:34 PM
In my wacky opinion, What Ock is saying about Jacksonville and it's city limit and consolidation is the same as what lake is saying about metro area. Many metro areas are about proximity, for instance if St. Petersburg and perhaps Clearwater wasn't so close to Tampa, Tampa would be the same size as Jax. However, the fact is both Clearwater and St. Pete are within Tampa's metro area just like the fact that the consolidated city of Jax boost our populous.
If Jax would not have annexed cities like South Jacksonville and Murray Hill, then perhaps today they may have been what Clearwater or Temple Terrace is to Tampa. However, there are five counties in our metro area and four in Tampa's so it really doesn't matter. Earlier in this thread I mentioned "urban area" statistics as something I routinely go by. This number is generally tabulated the same for all urbanized centers of population, which is something you don't get with municipal limit comparisons.
QuoteCity limit vs metro area either side you fall on it's factual. So why not embrace the consolidation and run with it. Miami uses the convienence of Ft. Lauderdale to boost it's metro numbers just like we use our entire county to boost our city numbers. What is the difference? They are both facts!
So is Yakutat being the largest city in the United States, trumping both Jacksonville and NYC.
Miami does not use Ft. Lauderdale to boost its metro numbers. They just happen to be two cities in the same urbanized area, similar to Jacksonville and Orange Park or Jacksonville Beach. There's nothing wrong with embracing consolidation. The problem arises when one attempts to compare and sell based on flawed data (or data that can't be accurately compared head-to-head). Since municipal limits range in size with no direct relationship with urbanized development, its a flawed formula for directly comparing places that may have a different political makeup.
In any event, one can go around and do a DVI-type sell of saying Jax is bigger than it really is, but its sort of like saying a PCT is just like a real streetcar or that downtown does not have a homeless or parking problem. You may trick someone the first time, but you set them up to leave with a poor taste in their mouth after witnessing reality. As Ock says, its like peeing on someone's leg and telling them its raining.
I agree with all you've said Lake. And regarding Fort Lauderdale in Miami metro, remember, Fort Lauderdale was a very small city and even smaller town when they started keeping track of this urban/metro/msa thing. 88,000 is the population of Fort Lauderdale I think back in the 60's, probably less than that, while on the other hand, Miami was over 200,000; so it's true, Ft. Lauderdale just happened to be in Miami's backyard to be included in the "pop" numbers. And then Ft. Lauderdale burgeoned in population so now you have two major cities in one metro/MSA area.
Heights Unknow
Quote from: stjr on August 28, 2009, 01:03:32 AM
As asked in other quarters, does size really matter or is it the quality of the experience? :)
If we focus on our quality of life, everything else will take care of itself: economic development, self-esteem, recognition, being a world-class city, an attractive place to move to, etc.
Unfortunately, too often, Jacksonville (and Florida) relies on slogans, gimmicks, and quick fixes to address its "ills". These are often short sighted and don't hold water for the long term. Just witness the City Council's last minute jump into the budget process were uninformed Council members are instant experts toying with the essence of our City in a relative few minutes of time - unconcerned and unaware of what the long term consequences of their actions may really be. So continues the most reliable of Jacksonville traditions - going for the superficial and glamor, avoiding the responsible and thoughtful, and never planning or visioning. We are destined at this rate to spin wheels for the foreseeable future without relief. There is no "wake up" in sight.
The City Council will spend more time talking reactively about Jags tickets, parades, minor commissions and boards, self congratulatory "honors", incentives for more growth, decorating offices, pointing fingers, etc. than they will addressing proactively quality of life issues such as education, safety, culture, recreation, environment, transit, health care, etc.
I agree with stjr on this one. Even though I view the Jags as a forum of recreation.
Quote from: stjr on August 28, 2009, 01:03:32 AM
As asked in other quarters, does size really matter or is it the quality of the experience? :)
The quality of the experience - "the motion of the ocean" so to speak - is pointless if you cannot reach the beach...
...Anyways... We are a fortunate community in that we love our city, believe in our city, and want to see it grow and flourish. It is, afterall,
our home!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2009, 06:40:53 PM
In any event, one can go around and do a DVI-type sell of saying Jax is bigger than it really is, but its sort of like saying a PCT is just like a real streetcar or that downtown does not have a homeless or parking problem. You may trick someone the first time, but you set them up to leave with a poor taste in their mouth after witnessing reality. As Ock says, its like peeing on someone's leg and telling them its raining.
Yes lake, I sure do say that about the PCT buses that some idiots call trolleys. But I'm thinking some of you are missing my point. It's not that we are cheating anyone, we are simply different in our makeup. Anyone wanting to relocate can read the numbers and explore our city without restriction. If they want to consider just the population within city limits then then the numbers they get from us are morally, ethic'ly, Spiritually, physically, Positively, absolutely, Undeniably, and reliably, our LEGAL POPULATION! What I'm saying is we have people out in our cyber arena shouting NO! ...and I'm yelling back YES! WE ARE NUMBER 3 ON THE EAST COAST. If they want our Metro Numbers, we give them the facts and we are number 40... But here on MJ or anywhere we travel we shouldn't hold back on either FACT. OCKLAWAHA
Why stop at 3rd largest? Just go ahead and say we're the largest city outside of Alaska, making us the largest city on the East Coast. With statistics we can always pick a choose certain numbers that may make us look superior on paper although street level reveals a completely different viewpoint.
If we were truly the third largest place on the east coast, we would already have rail and more buildings than parking lots downtown regardless of poor or good city leadership. We would also be considered to be more of an international city as opposed to a regional one.
I'm not saying people should hold back facts, but we should be well aware of what all of these numbers mean and how to properly put them in relation to other places when attempting to compare with other places. Municipal numbers simply aren't apples to apples in most cases because a region's urban development and true population is not dictated by imaginary municipal limits. The municipal numbers are what the are, but they just don't reflect the true size of a place (Jax, Daytona, Orange Park or any where else).
Lake, I agree with you as previously noted. Our obsession with "size" of any kind shows our insecurity about "quality". We should focus on being the BEST, not the BIGGEST. BEST is what gets rewarded in life, not BIGGEST (see fate of the dinosaurs), unless we are competing for "BIGGEST LOSER"! :)
Quote from: stjr on August 29, 2009, 01:29:30 AM
Lake, I agree with you as previously noted. Our obsession with "size" of any kind shows our insecurity about "quality". We should focus on being the BEST, not the BIGGEST. BEST is what gets rewarded in life, not BIGGEST (see fate of the dinosaurs), unless we are competing for "BIGGEST LOSER"! :)
It's not that we are obsessed with size. One thing I've heard over and over on this forum is, "Jacksonville has no identity." If there is one thing that identifies this city is the fact that it is big. Everywhere I go the one thing that people talk about when I tell them I'm from Jax is that it is a big city. The size of the city is a quirk and quirkiness works because people remember it.
People aren't idiots they know we aren't Miami, Atlanta, Chicago, or whatever, nor are we trying to be. During the superbowl so many people didn't have a clue where in Florida Jax was located, but the commentators repeatedly referred to Jax as an enormously big city. In order for a city to be recognized it must first be remembered. Personally, I don't think we have any insecurities with the quality of this city, however, there is always room for improvement.
During the Super Bowl, this "big" was portrayed as a negative. It was not "big" as in population, but "big" as in insanely spread out. We were painted as a sprawling suburb with limited walkable areas and lacking in cosmopolitan amenities that "a city our size" should already have. Overall, people enjoyed our southern hospitality but most thought we were out of our leagues hosting that event compared with other cities that had hosted it in the past. We may lack an identity, but being identified as an unsustainable sunbelt sprawler is not a good thing.
(http://mihow.com/photos/pics/full/2004_12_08_0034.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2009, 01:22:17 AM
Why stop at 3rd largest? Just go ahead and say we're the largest city outside of Alaska, making us the largest city on the East Coast. With statistics we can always pick a choose certain numbers that may make us look superior on paper although street level reveals a completely different viewpoint.
If we were truly the third largest place on the east coast, we would already have rail and more buildings than parking lots downtown regardless of poor or good city leadership. We would also be considered to be more of an international city as opposed to a regional one.
I'm not saying people should hold back facts, but we should be well aware of what all of these numbers mean and how to properly put them in relation to other places when attempting to compare with other places. Municipal numbers simply aren't apples to apples in most cases because a region's urban development and true population is not dictated by imaginary municipal limits. The municipal numbers are what the are, but they just don't reflect the true size of a place (Jax, Daytona, Orange Park or any where else).
Exactly Lake! The numbers are what they are. I'm just sick to death of every time our city is mentioned it comes with a disclaimer. Oklahoma City doesn't apologise for it's similar size (in both areas of the count, miles or people!). One the the favorite things in my Okie Roots (no I wasn't born there) is the Oklahoma practice of taking jabs at Dallas, Houston etc... "It's true, Dallas and Houston are bigger then OKC ( either one actually has more people then the whole damn state of OK) but geographically speaking, OKLAHOMA IS ALWAYS ON TOP OF TEXAS!" Call it what you want but to me it feels like PRIDE and a helping of pure spunk. "Did you know Lake Texoma on the Red River is the second largest lake in Oklahoma, but it is the LARGEST LAKE IN TEXAS!" "Never badmouth an Okie with your mouth or gas tank full!" and last but certainly not least, in a beautiful land where more languages are spoken then anywhere in the rest of the world, comes this little gem, "Welcome to the Cheyenne Nation - Custer Had It Comming!"
Yeah, some of that is simple silliness, but the point is,Oklahoma and it's cities can't be ignored because they WILL get in your face about it.
So I contend that our municipal limits are not imaginary. Maybe a bit whacked but I understand at the time of Consolidation, our mayor suggested buying Texas as a new City Park. Even though Texas is huge and has several massive urban area's did you know that about 68% of it is greasewood, rocks, cactus and rattlesnakes. From the hill country roughly a line from Dallas to San Antonio, west, looks more like something out of a bad, old Clint Eastwood Italian Western. But however you cut it, they don't back down from their legal bragging rights, and neither should we. OCKLAWAHA
For the record, I don't know what type of Chamber of Commerce lines Oklahoma City sprouts, but I've always viewed it as second tier player too, given the area's population.
Last but not least, understanding statistics and how they relate to urban development is not an apology or disclaimer. What's being painted as a disclaimer is the same argument we've been using to prove to naysayers that we already have the density to support rail options.
In any event, we can agree to disagree on this one.
I'm still not certain you get my drift on this. I think bragging rights, whatever they are, help to brand and identify a locality. Be it "The Strawberry Capital of the World," Plant City. "Home of the Redneck Games," Athens, TX.. "Home of the Boggy Creek Monster," Fouke, AR.. "Anadarko, Oklahoma, home of the worlds deepest gas well, The Bertha Rogers 31,441 feet."
It's those little and unique things that make us who we really are, I just wish JACKSONVILLE, could quit backing up and stand on these achievements. What has happened to us? About the time most of you boys were born we had full page ad's in newspapers all over the USA. They came complete with cartoon figures, data sheets and contact numbers, here's just a couple of examples that REALLY PISSED some folks off in distant evil towns.
NY TIMES, "Thousands of New Yorkers have left town for the big city... JACKSONVILLE!"
ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, "Ask any Atlantan the way to the port... JACKSONVILLE!"
Would somebody find our missing balls? Let's pull out all of the stops again and have some fun!
OCKLAWAHA
I get your drift. I just don't view it as bragging rights. We already have an identity as a big sprawling suburb. When it comes to urbanism, I see it as more of a negative. In the 1980s, this may have been okay but the country is changing to one that values sustainability and quality of life over quantity. If anything around here really needs an identity boost, I'd say its our urban core. Any ideas on what we can rally it around to separate it's identity from the sprawling and rural areas of the city?
As a matter of fact, yes... A wild hair idea to meet the bad reputation of downtown being a dead spot head-on. Turn the silence into a quality.
Using photos or video of various international cities, both USA and overseas, crowed, often unfriendly, and always rushed, contrast it with an image from our old Jax Beer promos.
The sleeping giant
Timeless City
The City of friendship
Images of downtown, clubs, restaurants, hotels, riverwalks, bridges, sailing, monorail, fireworks, stadiums, but always FRIENDS together. The message is: the only big city where you'll have time to stop and smell the flowers.
OCKLAWAHA
Good one. That could work for retirees. How about the Creative Class or the ones that like hustle and bustle of a city (DT and its urban neighborhoods).
"The sleeping giant" = The $ky-high-way, destined to never awaken
"Timeless City" = A city lost in time 'cause they destroyed any semblance of history
"The City of friendship" = A City that welcomes road builders and urban sprawl developers with open arms and closed minds
Couldn't resist the urge to be extra cynical tonight ;)
Will this city ever get over its inferiority complex? We do not have to be Atlanta, Miami Etc. We have some unique gifts and geography if we can just get some vision and planning (and eliminate a good deal of old boy network) going forward. >:(
Quote from: thelakelander on August 30, 2009, 09:17:47 PM
Good one. That could work for retirees. How about the Creative Class or the ones that like hustle and bustle of a city (DT and its urban neighborhoods).
Since we have this well known and perhaps not totally undeserved reputation, I think you address all of those issues with the same campaign. For example, the little cluster of friends could be shown in an intense regatta on the river, shown stepping off the Skyway, past crowds, fountains, buses, cars, and ducking into a little club... But they all end with the quiet streets, lovers on park benches, and fade from the Landing, music, lights, fade to JACKSONVILLE.
ALL CITY - NO LIMITS! OCKLAWAHA
Here are more positive slogans that play off our mostly natural gifts (since we don't have too many man-made ones) (consider them copyrighted if anyone thinks they are actually worthwhile! 8)):
Jacksonville, where work and play are the same.
Jacksonville, where life begins and work ends.
Jacksonville, where every address is between the sun and the water.
Jacksonville, where the seasons of the year change from fun to more fun.
Jacksonville, where the river of life carries you to the ocean of opportunities.
Jacksonville, where nature is the largest landowner.