Do you wish Jacksonville had Commuter Rail?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/624759524_xzHpm-M.jpg)
Heading south on I-95 and tired of sitting in traffic during afternoon rush hour?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-aug-do-you-wish-jacksonville-had-commuter-rail
I would love commuter rail!
That is pretty much the only way to solve the traffic problems on 95. Adding more lanes only entices more drivers and more traffic. The exit ramps are bottle necks and it doesn't matter how many lanes you have when none of them are moving.
Connect downtown to JTB, Mandarin, Nocatee, and St. Augustine with small rail. In the future run a new leg down the beach corridor. The 3rd phase would be to run from downtown to Orange Park. This would allow almost everyone south and east of downtown to drive just a few miles to a small rail station, hop a train that comes every 15 minutes and go lots of places without sitting in traffic, wasting gas, or polluting the air. It could also allow for better night life downtown - as we know almost no one lives there and driving a long distance to get there is not feasible for most...
If enough people would actually use the rail to get to work, this would be possible. Unfortunately, the city is probably scared that this would be another sky rail failure (not realizing that the current sky rail failure is a combination of a elements that is a new discussion all together...).
This is similar to how we got the JAG's as an expansion team in JAX. We would need to prove to everyone in writing that more than enough people would TRULY use the rail. This would almost need to be done by pre-selling a yearly train pass - similar to how we presold sky boxes and Touchdown club seats before we even got awarded to be an NFL expansion city. I hope that someone steps up to the plate for us here. I'll buy one.
I wish us all the best of luck at getting this MAJOR feet accomplished. I sure hope we have some big wigs at the city take notice.
Look at the dips in that track. The right hand track has a major one. The left is a little better. Ballast settlement can be a problem to rail traffic. They are less tollerant of "pot holes".
When I work down town I come in early and leave late to avoid this traffic. Some things don't change. It has been like this 20 years. Commuter trains might work for others, but I often have to drive somewhere during the day.
^Its all about choice. Trains won't work for everyone but if you can get a certain percentage to use them, you may not have to spend billions on continuous road widening projects in the future.
The Commuter rail in from Clay County would be even more useful as we have some of the slowest commutes in the state.
Yes, although it wouldn't really benefit me much in terms of commuting. I both live and work downtown so I can walk to work or bike (which I do). Where it would benefit me, is if there was weekend service to a location like SJTC or St. Augustine, then I could travel to these locations for the day and not have to drive a car.
This will also benefit me by helping to increase my property values in the future as JAX would have another standard urban service that will help to attract more people and jobs. A rail service that would take folks to the job concentration on JTB, would be very attractive to someone who wanted to live in the urban environs but couldn't necessarily find a job in the downtown concentration. Of course, there are jobs all over, but having connections between these two job centers would go far and more job centers would be created around the stops.
I believe that without commuter rail we will loose jobs and money to other cities and suffer for it. If this is done right, the money invested in it will pay huge rewards.
Lake, did you use your telephoto lens on that photo of the track?
A small dip like that will effect the ride with a slight sway, but this isn't high speed track and is in extremely heavy use as a freight corridor daily. Freight trains tend to trash track with 250,000 pound payloads per car being common. In order to introduce passenger rail back to these segments we will need some sort of joint improvement deal with the railroads, or we could just go for corridor service with Amtrak.
OCKLAWAHA
Are the FEC and CSX ROW's wide enough to accommodate a third rail line for passenger only? I would think ROW is a big chunk of the costs so just having that out of the way, how much more would it cost per mile to add a third line?
Where was that last picture taken?
^Downtown Toronto.
Quote from: stjr on August 24, 2009, 12:03:19 PM
Are the FEC and CSX ROW's wide enough to accommodate a third rail line for passenger only?
Yes. Its 100' so it could accommodate a lot more.
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 09:16:25 AM
The Commuter rail in from Clay County would be even more useful as we have some of the slowest commutes in the state.
I have seen BOTH on the MPO plans.
Quote from: Bewler on August 24, 2009, 12:22:41 PM
Where was that last picture taken?
Looks like Southside, looking North toward Atlantic Blvd on the FEC... Lake? Quote from: FayeforCure on August 24, 2009, 12:47:09 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 09:16:25 AM
The Commuter rail in from Clay County would be even more useful as we have some of the slowest commutes in the state.
I have seen BOTH on the MPO plans.
Yes, Orange Park is number ONE in the State of Florida for worst commutes, we also "own" about 3 or 4 more top 10 worst commutes in the state. Amtrak corridor service would go a long way toward helping in this regard. Quote from: stjr on August 24, 2009, 12:03:19 PM
Are the FEC and CSX ROW's wide enough to accommodate a third rail line for passenger only? I would think ROW is big chunk of the costs so just having that out of the way, how much more would it cost per mile to add a third line?
Shouldn't be really needed STJR, the right-of-ways usually run 100' wide, but often much more. With PTC "Postive Train Control" meets are all calculated in advance, meaning we might have to install some longer second or third track passing sidings, but not the whole route. If JTA and FEC can play their cards right and project what this line will look like with Corridor AND Commuter traffic then perhaps we can get much of this built on the Amtrak-Federal tab. OCKLAWAHA
I would use it. I also wouldn't think walking one mile to the nearest station would deter me, unless I was running late.
There's a reason in other cities property values are higher for properties close to transit stations. I'd love not having the car, insurance, maintenance and gas expenses. If I need a car, Zipcar would be awesome.
get a hover craft
Quote from: hightowerlover on August 24, 2009, 04:28:53 PM
get a hover craft
I think catapults are the way to go. All you'd have to do is carry a really large pillow with you at all times to ensure a safe and comfortable landing. After being launched in the air to your destination you can simply sit back on your big fluffy seat, take in the beautiful view, and enjoy the ride to convenienceville.
Pogo stick. Low material cost, portable and green.
Plus, HOA friendly.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Bewler on August 24, 2009, 12:22:41 PM
Where was that last picture taken?
Looks like Southside, looking North toward Atlantic Blvd on the FEC... Lake?
It was taken, looking north from River Oaks Road.
Yes!!!
Just came from the TPO in St. Augustine Library. The Library was packed, the TPO room was EMPTY, a total of maybe 8 persons showed up for the whole 2 hours. We'll never see the improvements we need if we can't at least motivate people to get off their sofa's and be heard.
Damn, I'm glad we aren't fighting the Red Coats to establish our country today! Nobody would show up at Lexington or Concord.
OCKLAWAHA
Just heard there were 12 people there. Ock - thanks for attending. There are many more/different transit projects under consideration now than ever before in the history of Jax...with a lot of the credit going to all at MJ who got involved. You not only took the time to research and write about it, you also made the effort to go to the committee meetings and public meetings.
Now is the time to show up and well as speak up - tomorrow 5:30-7:30 p.m. at Jax Main Library - and we'll get it on film!
Thanks mvp, hope to see you there tomorrow.
OCKLAWAHA
I plan on being there for at least a little while.
I think bringing a commuter rail to Jacksonville is a great idea. I drive from downtown to Baymeadows and 9A everyday and it is miserable, especially in the rain. The traffic is one of the main reasons that I became interested in moving to Riverside in the coming months.
With that said I'm also afraid JTA would botch the project. If a commuter rail comes to Jax it has to be accessible to everyone otherwise I'm afraid the rail would fail. To me Jacksonville feels like one large suburb and if a Jacksonville commuter has to drive three miles to get to a station; chances are they'll drive right past the station and continue on their way to work. If I live on 9A and baymeadows and I have to drive to I95 to get to my nearest station, then pay to park my car, then wait for a train (which I also have to pay for); then I might as well just stay in my car for the commute.
Being that I've lived in Florida my whole life, I'm not that familiar with mass transit but I believe Chicago does a great job with the "L". When I stayed in Chicago, I stayed in Rosemont which is quite a distance (northwest) from the city center but I was still only a five minute walk from my hotel to an "L" station. I was able to take the "L" to Wrigley Field and the White Sox Games with little effort. Wrigley was kind of difficult because you had to go into downtown, switch lines and then head north again but all that really did was take my money into downtown where my friends and I would hang out before going to Addison for the game.
Quote from: A-Finnius on August 25, 2009, 12:01:25 AM
If I live on 9A and baymeadows and I have to drive to I95 to get to my nearest station, then pay to park my car, then wait for a train (which I also have to pay for); then I might as well just stay in my car for the commute.
Finnius, your concern about intermodal transfers is one of the reasons I also don't think the $ky-high-way has a future here. I believe most commuters would fall into your camp.
Who wants to commute from the suburbs, exit the commuter mode, take an escalator (if it even works) to the $ky-high-way, wait again for another arrival, take it across the river, exit it, take an escalator down (again, if it works), and walk to a location that likely won't be close to your station since they are so few in number about Downtown?
Connectivity to the $ky-high-way for this reason is a red herring to me.
We need modes that take you from the suburbs straight into the city with enough stations downtown that we can walk to work or at least connect to a mode like buses and/or street cars that come by the commuter station every 5 or 10 minutes during peak times and maybe 10 or 15 minutes otherwise. I don't think the $ky-high-way could keep pace with that in combination with offering the number of destinations buses and/or street cars could.
That’s a very good point Finnius and I’m afraid that would be the biggest obstacle for making a successful Jax rail. You mentioned that when you were in Chicago you were just a five minute walk from the nearest station. That’s a perfectly reasonable walking distance, let me guess, the layout was mostly grid style right? Unfortunately for us most of our outer suburbs were designed utterly horrible for anyone who prefers walking. Winding roads and dead ends can make what should be a 5 â€" 10 minute walk two or three times that long.
I would not call it an obstacle unless someone is trying to get rail out to all parts of Duval County overnight. Imo, get the urban core right (reconnect the dense neighborhoods with downtown via streetcar) and a couple of commuter options (commuter rail or Amtrak corridor service) out to burbs with congestion issues (i.e. Orange Park, etc.) and go from there. We're no where near Chicago's status and will not be in our lifetimes. However, we can be competitive with second tier peers like Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Columbus, Nashville, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2009, 12:08:25 PM
Imo, get the urban core right (reconnect the dense neighborhoods with downtown via streetcar) and a couple of commuter options (commuter rail or Amtrak corridor service) out to burbs with congestion issues (i.e. Orange Park, etc.) and go from there.
I agree with this; but if JTA can't get the Commuter Rail in downtown working efficiently then how do we expect them to successfully expand to the burbs. I've never ridden the so called $ky-high way but it seems that a lot of people on this site complain about it. I like the riverside trolley but can anyone tell me how it serves the actual residents of Riverside or Springfield? The hours stink, I think it runs 5 hours a day and none of the stops seem to actually be in a neighborhood. It appears to me the trolley is there to simply take Suburbanites who work downtown to lunch everyday. Which is of course good for the riverside economy but wouldn't the trolley better serve downtown residents if JTA expanded service to at least King street in riverside and up to 1st & main at the edge of Springfield, as well as increase the hours of service.
Well it sure would help if the "Urban Area's" were set up and designed with mass transit in mind! I made the SE Library meeting of the TPO and was impressed with the possibilities! Water travel with ACV's not really a good idea since Billy Bob in his 8' wooden John boat won't show up on radar. Now the rail end is looking really good with the exsisting trackage in basically 3 directions. Key points will be off and on and where and by what! Not sure BRT system is the best solution unless we build a heck ofa lot of roads to go with it......light rail or a trolley system maybe the best option instead of building more roads.....still thinking about that one!
I also agree that if commuter rail were the first mode to be implemented, it would fall flat on its face. Streetcar is the logical first step. Integrating Riverside to Springfield through Brooklyn and Downtown with streetcar would rapidly take off IMO. The success story would lay the groundwork for changing the mind of John and Jane Q. Commuter. "Hmm... that streetcar works pretty well. I wish they'd extend a train out by me.. I hate driving up (insert road) every day to get to work"
I can report that the vast majority of folks who attended the TPO LRTP workshops want rail....the next step is to adopt the Needs Plan (in 2 weeks) and then start allocating the limited funds to projects.
The good news is I think several of the proposed transit projects will make the final list
Did anyone want the northern version of the Outer Beltway?
not really....some of the folks in Nassau seemed ok with it...and for now it is still on the map....but I doubt very strongly that it will make the final cost feasible list....its more like an idea for 3050 or 2060 (assuming we keep growing the same way)
What's wrong with 301? Why do we need an outer beltway that parallels it?
we don't....but some folks want it instead of widening 301
not that I know of....some were just citizens that think expressways are a good thing (keep in mind that most Americans felt the same way up until about 10 years ago).
We can't justify spending billions of dollars because "some folks" want it. It should not even be considered.
Tufsu, were any doubts expressed about the now proposed Outer Beltway or 9B? Any chance these projects drop down or out on the list?
How are street cars and commuter rail ranking versus messing with the $ky-high-way? Hopefully, they are rising while the $ky-high-way drops. I am encouraged by the emphasis of recent posts on prioritizing street cars and commuter rail over BRT and $ky-high-way.
The above seems to me to be common sense and I hope others come around, especially the TPO. Let's do the right thing, not the political thing.
Here's the deal folks.
1 Northern Outer Beltway - there is a feasibility study underway...hopefully the results will show that it is not needed anytime soon...and it can be dropped....but, as some have stated, why not do the study it and prepare for the far out future...if it might be needed someday, wouldn't it be nice to get the land before its too expensive?
2. Outer Beltyway - this will be put out to bid by FDOT sometime in the next year....we'll see how may (if any) builders submit....if not, FDOTr says they won't be building it
3. 9B - I'm pretty sure that's still happening....it is the #1 priority for the folks in St. Johns County
4. Most of the transit projects are popular....but one thing to note about the skyway....the main system is built, so extensions are relatively inexpensive....especially as compared with starting a whole new commutre rail or streetcar system....but don't wory stjr, that won't be the only deciding factor
(http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/ek7i2krvbf7fmlcip3y2u6lmppyllh3smusitjhtlu7hb3svxatgrs4puqcbywhqdds6bjq7tp2wdabuemlngs5zimh/Skyway-photo-web.jpg)
Thanks tufsu1, I was dreaming that someone in the "Know," would tell the city that any expansion of the Skyway would be far cheaper then starting from scratch. I've been preaching and teaching that the damned thing needn't cost us the baby and the bath just to add a mile or so on each end.
Stadiums, San Marco (Atlantic at FEC RY), Riverside, Shand's and maybe even Durkeeville/farm market. At that point we can cut and run with streetcar and BRT, tied to commuter rail. When all of these components work in harmony we'll be the only Southern City with a frick'n transportation symphony.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, the only Skyway extensions identified in the Needs Plan are the Riverside Ave and Kings Ave/San Marco corridors. All the other routes you mentioned are a no go this round.
Thanks, lake -
Here is the link to the list going into the public meetings:
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/envision2035/docs/7-30-09/Needs_Plan_Potential_Project_List.pdf (http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/envision2035/docs/7-30-09/Needs_Plan_Potential_Project_List.pdf)
the transit projects are on the last page. I think more have been added during the public meetings, but not added to the online list.
(http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/images/JTAskyway.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander link=topic=5870.msg93989#mtsg93989 date=1251592909
Ock, the only Skyway extensions identified in the Needs Plan are the Riverside Ave and Kings Ave/San Marco corridors. All the other routes you mentioned are a no go this round.
I didn't think I indicated that these we're part of the TPO list. Sorry for the confusion y'all. I am just staying with my recomended routes for the Skyway, and the only additional routes I could ever imagine (and only if these first additions caused the little system to spring to life) would be:
Baptist Medical Center
St. Vincents Medical Center
Memorial Hospital via Atlantic and Beach
JU via a new bridge or tunnel
Farm Market on Beaver via the JTA yard (*and OVER the "S" line)
These extensions long after 5-Points, Shand's, Stadium, San Marco (Atlantic at the FEC RY platform) and Riverside. There may be some distant call for extending up to Gateway Plaza area, but I can't imagine Light Rail or Streetcar or even BRT not being able to handle that demand.
The only wildcard in this basket of "maybe routes," is the new courthouse. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 29, 2009, 08:47:04 PM
Thanks, lake -
Here is the link to the list going into the public meetings:
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/envision2035/docs/7-30-09/Needs_Plan_Potential_Project_List.pdf (http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/envision2035/docs/7-30-09/Needs_Plan_Potential_Project_List.pdf)
the transit projects are on the last page. I think more have been added during the public meetings, but not added to the online list.
there are about 15 more roadway/interchange projects....the transit projects list is complete.
Rail dollars are falling from the sky or they grow on trees, perhaps, if you are in fantasyland. When the JTA cannot spend enough money for a flyover from 95 S to JTB E, it means trouble in the budget, so they will instead widen 95 and create turn-only lanes.
Not that the Southside area does not have plenty of vacant buildings, when the next growth spurt takes place, with nothing to satisfy the road nazis, will JTA have a plan that includes more buses up and down JTB?
I agree.....more bus's are not the answer...better route planning might help, but rail would be a better choice for innercity travel. BRT just increases the asphalt area required and does nothing to alleviate congestion if the BRT is not filled to capacity!
I really wish Jacksonville had commuter rail. It would be a money maker. Imagine a St. Augustine-Jacksonville commuter rail train. Vacationers could fly into the Jax airport, take the train to downtown, and then get on the skyway or commuter rail and get anywhere in town.
I'm in favor of it, as listening to WOKV every afternoon from Charleston, I can hear how bad traffic is in the morning and afternoon in Jacksonville. It is just as bad in Charleston every morning, with Interstate 26 being the big backup. They are planning a commuter rail to stop this backup, from Summerville to Charleston.
As a person who grew up with commuter rail in NJ/NY, I would love the option here in Jax. I currently live off JTB and work downtown. Even if the train ride took me 5-10 minutes more than driving without traffic, I would use rail. However, everyone knows that traffic on JTB and 95 is inevitable, making a 30 minute train ride likely to be a shorter and less stressful ride than sitting in traffic.
I'd take it as well. I commute from the Avenues to a downtown office building adjacent to the skyway daily.
Traffic really sucks heading southbound on I-95 and Philips around 5pm. I find myself staying at work later each day to let traffic die down. It also backs up between Baymeadows and University northbound each morning. Its only going to get worse once the Overland Bridge and JTB interchange projects kick into high gear.
Personally, a train would cut down the amount of money I spend in gas, insurance and auto maintenance. I could also use that travel time to relax, read a book, paper or surf the web instead of being stuck behind the wheel. Locally, its the more cost effective option to deal with current and future congestion. It also gives Jacksonville the opportunity to revitalize the Philips corridor as a walkable transit oriented district instead of the blighted gateway into downtown it is today. Extra money gained from higher property values along that stretch (and others like it) is the type of thing that will help the city with its annual budget issues.
When everything is laid out on the table, I see no reason to not do it ASAP.
Quote from: charlestondxman on August 30, 2009, 10:57:05 AM
I really wish Jacksonville had commuter rail. It would be a money maker. Imagine a St. Augustine-Jacksonville commuter rail train. Vacationers could fly into the Jax airport, take the train to downtown, and then get on the skyway or commuter rail and get anywhere in town.
I'm in favor of it, as listening to WOKV every afternoon from Charleston, I can hear how bad traffic is in the morning and afternoon in Jacksonville. It is just as bad in Charleston every morning, with Interstate 26 being the big backup. They are planning a commuter rail to stop this backup, from Summerville to Charleston.
Friend Charlestondxman, I gotta call you out on this one. Commuter Rail in Jacksonville, will become very popular as more people are introduced to it and as other transit links up. Rail in Jacksonville, will NOT BE A MONEY MAKER, not here, not ever. Not in New York, Not in Chicago, Not in Moscow, Not in London... Won't happen because the cost of equipment, labor, maintenance, track agreements, stations, etc... will continue to be in the Millions of dollars. Just do the quick math, even if we put 200 persons on each train - just on the St. Augustine line, what are they going to be willing to pay for a 5 day a week round trip? $5.00? (that's the cost in Dallas for the LRT-CR-Streetcar pass per day). How long will that train have to do this in order to bring in 1 Million dollars? Now take out for fuel, and all of the above costs and you'll quickly dig a hole in the ground.
The bright side of all of this that except for ZEPPELINS, there is no cheaper way to move large masses of people, so even with the costs figured in, it's still a great deal. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, is it possible that rail and other mass transit are not profitable because their fares don't fully value their services due to competing with even more subsidized transit such as roads?
Imagine if the ONLY way to travel was to walk, bike, or take mass transit. Mass transit could very likely demand a profit generating fare for distances beyond walking or biking. But, add that one can drive a car for the same or less cost than mass transit due to the provision of totally free roads and the mass transit fares are now forced into a money losing fire sale. This same model is mostly what keeps the airlines from remaining consistently profitable. Without business fare premiums for the speed of flying it is unlikely air travel could economically survive either. Witness the present where few business fares are being paid.
It's obvious to me that if the auto/road complex didn't exist, mass transit could very likely be instantly profitable.
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2009, 10:53:44 PM
500 dollars a month car payment, 150 a month insurance
200 a month in fuel.
I don't see that the cars are less expensive that mass transit, even with the trillions we have to spend in subsidies.
Stephen, I am not convinced.
What would be cheaper, if you only had one choice: To lay a rail and fuel, insure, and maintain a modern train while transporting millions of people over it or to buy land, clear it, and build an interstate and then buy millions of cars and fuel, insure, and maintain them? I think the answer is obvious. And, the proof exists in much of the world where, when only one system can be supported affordably, it's mass transit.
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2009, 11:12:12 PM
I think we are agreein stjr.
Rail is much less expensive than cars and roads.
On a re-read, I see your point. My apologies.
Rail is the grail!
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2009, 10:53:44 PM
500 dollars a month car payment, 150 a month insurance
200 a month in fuel.
I don't see that the cars are less expensive that mass transit, even with the trillions we have to spend in subsidies.
The problem with that math is that most people will still want their cars....what we need to do is show that the overall costs for transit are less than roads (keeping cars out of the equation) and that there are other savings/benefits generated.
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2009, 10:53:44 PM
500 dollars a month car payment, 150 a month insurance
200 a month in fuel.
Don’t forget repair and maintenance costs.
(http://www.mikedanneman.com/1947-Empire-Builder.jpg)
Hey y'all, try the calculator for your commuter costs:
http://www.apta.com/services/transit_calculator/.cfm
stjr, certainly if walking or bicycles were the only alternatives, we would see rail passenger services as profitable, at least in most areas.
(http://www.railtravelcenter.com/images/parks%20northwest%20empire%20builder.jpg)
Rail comes with certain attractors and economy's that (again) nothing but a Zeppelin could come close to matching. We constantly hear from some out in cyberland that make wild and thoughtless statements such as:
"Well when the train can take me to Miami in two hours, only then will I ride rather then drive." This kind of talk does nothing to improve our transit options, and shows COMPLETE IGNORANCE of the subject. If the FEC train will be reaching 90 MPH, and having ridden over that track, I don't see why it wouldn't work. When speeds are averaged, then the train will be AS FAST or FASTER then I-95, but not by much. We get the glorious fly boys of the 21St century with their equally thoughtless statements about non-stop "flyer trains." Again this demonstrates a complete ignorance of the subject matter.
(http://www.britainbyrail.co.uk/images/Empire%20Builder.jpg)
One of the best performing passenger trains in the entire nation is Amtrak's EMPIRE BUILDER. Named for James Hill, who constructed the GREAT NORTHERN RAILROAD, between (Chicago) The twin Cities and Seattle/Portland.
The train does a "Jacksonville" in Spokane, where it splits in two sections. One operates to Seattle while the other heads south to the Columbia River and rolls west into Portland. The EMPIRE BUILDER, is a high level (double decked) premo service. The reason it covers it's expenses and even makes a dime every now and then are for the exact reasons you describe stjr. Running just South of the Canadian border this deluxe train doesn't serve enough people between Minneapolis and Spokane, to fill a average Jacksonville grade school. Yet the train does the trick because much of the journey are to isolated small towns. These towns have horrible weather, which seldom stops a train, and they have little or no airline, or even freeway services. So this daily trek is their access to the outside world. Few on the passenger list are going to travel all the way from Chicago to Seattle/Portland, yet thousands of them use the train to reach the big cities both East and West of: North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota and Idaho.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/amtrakFECdemonstrator.jpg)
We must retrain our thoughts, not to some vague Jacksonville to Miami speedway, but the quick and convenient way to to from St. Augustine, to Daytona; from Daytona to Titusville, etc... One long distance train serving 10+ mini-corridors.
OCKLAWAHA
If there was a train that could get me from downtown Jax to Miami in about the same time it would take me to drive it on I-95 or any segment in between, I would never drive my car over that route again. Add on a baggage car that would take my bicycle or motor scooter to make it perfect!
Ock, What are the speed limiting factors on current Amtrack trains. I assume that the locomotives are capable of higher speeds than 97MPH. Is it something about the roadbed or curves? Signaling?
How could the travel times be reduced to be better than Interstate car travel without a whole new system?
Amtrak is limited to no more than 79mph on every route except the Northeast corridor
(http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/saudi-landbridge/images/1-rail-track.jpg)
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 31, 2009, 01:30:53 PM
Amtrak is limited to no more than 79mph on every route except the Northeast corridor
TUFSU1, Hello friend, on this one you are both right and wrong, there IS an FRA mandate that sets the general top speed at 79 MPH for conventional passenger trains. It is generally believed that improving track above VI and the new Positive Train Control (PTC) will allow much faster ceilings. Florida East Coast really has that covered because they have PTC with in-cab signaling, AND some of the best and fastest track in the America's. (Funny, though, being freight only since 1968, I'm not sure they ever break 65-70 on it).
There are MANY exceptions to the FRA rule, and in many places Amtrak and Freight blow right through the 79MPH top speed. Here is a collection of some I know of, feel free (tufsu1, JTA, Clem, Boyle, Fdot) to copy this note for your own research.
Trains 3-4 are still allowed 90 mph in areas of eastern California, Arizona, and New Mexico. Pacific Surfliners and commuter trains are allowed 90 from east Santa Ana to Sorrento Valley, which is between Del Mar and San Diego.
Trains 3 and 4 can also go 90 mi/h across much of Missouri.
110MPH in Michigan and upstate New York is correct. The New York stretch actually runs as far west as Hoffmans, NY, west of Schenectady. Amtrak owns the line between Kalamazoo and Porter, IN. In New York on the Empire Corridor, Amtrak gets up to 90 mph between Croton Harmon and Poughkeepsie. Between Poughkeepsie and Hudson, I think they hit 95 or 100 mph. Hudson to Albany is 110 mph, as well as Albany - Schenectady. Then, I think it's 100 mph between Schenectady and Amsterdam.
The Wolverine from CUS to Jackson, some unscientific milepost timings that indicated we were running at 80-90mph between Porter and Kalamazoo. The ride in the Horizon car is smooth and it looks like Amtrak is pretty good about maintaining this RoW. The ride on the NS track east of Kalamazoo isn't too bad either at 70-80mph, for that matter. Last I heard, the Porter - Kalamazoo stretch was 95 mph, even though track is maintained for 110 mph. They were supposed to increase the operating speed to 110 soon, though.
The westbound CZ (California Zephyr) in Northern Nevada doing between 91mph and 97mph.
But 5 and 6 through NEvada goin' that fast, I believe to be a rules violation! Otherwise it too excepted.
Some track in Illinois between Chicago and Springfield was upgraded to 110 mph standards, but aside from a few test trains, nothing has come of that so far. Operating speed remains 79 mph.
Amtrak's Keystone trains hit 110 mph between Philadelphia and Harrisburg on the newly upgraded Keystone corridor.
The "new technology" systems such as PTC are subject to the review and approval of the FRA. Any increase in speed has to be compliant with a number of federal regulations.
49 CFR 213.9 and 213.307
Sec. 213.9 Classes of track: operating speed limits.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and
Secs. 213.57(b), 213.59(a), 213.113(a), and 213.137(b) and (c), the
following maximum allowable operating speeds apply--
[In miles per hour]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The maximum The maximum
Over track that meets all of the allowable allowable
requirements prescribed in this operating speed operating speed
part for-- for freight for passenger
trains is-- trains is--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excepted track.................... 10 N/A
Class 1 track..................... 10 15
Class 2 track..................... 25 30
Class 3 track..................... 40 60
Class 4 track..................... 60 80
Class 5 track..................... 80 90
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sec. 213.307 Class of track: operating speed limits.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and
Secs. 213.329, 213.337(a) and 213.345(c), the following maximum
allowable operating speeds apply:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over track that meets all of the The maximum allowable
requirements prescribed in this subpart operating speed for trains
for-- is--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class 6 track............................ 110 m.p.h.
Class 7 track............................ 125 m.p.h.
Class 8 track............................ 160 m.p.h.
Class 9 track............................ 200 m.p.h.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not that many years ago, the Illinois Central Main (now CN) had 90-100 speeds south of Kankakee to Carbondale and 90MPH max all the way to NOL. The ACL main (now CSX) south of Petersburg, VA all the way to Jacksonville was also a 90-100MPH railroad just a few decades ago.
Last time I was in Southern California, I FLEW ---- AMTRAK! The San Diegan's also rip along at 90+
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding, frankly with the FEC, it's track and signals, add some fencing, stations, and overpasses and OMG... DAMN! "Super Railroad."OCKLAWAHA
Quote"Hope this clears up any misunderstanding, frankly with the FEC, it's track and signals, add some fencing, stations, and overpasses and OMG... DAMN! "Super Railroad."
I had heard that the FEC track was among the best engineered and best maintained track in the country. So this means that without the billions that a TGV type system would cost, we could still have shorter travel times that the Interstates with just a bit more investment.
We don't have to try to compete with the airlines for the Jax to Dallas route, much less than to LA from here, but just give me some shorter times on the 200-600 mile segments than driving!
For these shorter routes, air doesn't make any sense. You can generally drive from Jax to Miami faster than you can fly, or at least more conveniently.
Ock, I didn't catch any mention of high speeds in the Northeast Corridor: Wash - Phil - NY - Bost
Quote from: stjr on August 31, 2009, 05:35:47 PM
Ock, I didn't catch any mention of high speeds in the Northeast Corridor: Wash - Phil - NY - Bost
Correct stjr, the premise was that all of Amtrak except the Northeast Corridor was limited to 79 MPH. My point was to inform friend tufsu1 that while that is a general rule on most track, there are quite a few places where the track and signaling have been upgraded to the point where the FRA has allowed Amtrak to increase speeds.
Certainly the Florida East Coast would be good for 90-110 MPH, but for a couple of expensive problems:
It slices through the center of every town and city on the east coast of the state.
It has more grade crossings simply because the cities have surrounded it.
The curves based on old right-of-way are fairly restrictive and no longer super-elevated (banked). OCKLAWAHA
Got it, Ock. Thanks.
Basic time distance calculations for Jax to Miami would come out to 5 or 6 hours...based on 75 mph average and that's some time savings and then some....so a viable alternative to driving that distance. This taking into account slowing for towns and the like! Heck I can't drive that in that time frame unless road is totally empty with no traffic incidents or clogs! Any faster than that and you will become good friends with FHP!
I think people make to much of a big deal on how long rail systems can take to get from beginning point to end point. Most riders will be getting on and off in the rail starved stops in between (St. Augustine, Daytona, Cocoa, Melbourne, Palm Coast, etc.). When you factor in serving these communities, flying can't compete and depending on your destination, driving may not be the best thing either.
Simple solution would be an "Express" to be run at predetermined times and other traffic could revolve around that that schedule....first things first....get rail up and running and go from there!
Agree 100%!