The "Libertarian" Alliance
Randal O'Toole, for those who do not know, is the "Libertarian" anti-HSR propagandist working for the Cato Institute, with corporate sponsors that might have an interest in the High Speed Rail debate including: the American Petroleum Institute; ExxonMobil; General Motors; Honda North America; Toyota Motor Corporation; and Volkswagen of America.
Oh, and by the way, buying propaganda for your corporation propaganda doesn't really cost all that much. According to Sourcewatch (above link), for example, Cato's corporate haul came to under $700,000 total in 2006, and that will cover a wide range of pro-corporate propaganda on health insurance reform, regulating the corporate ability to dump unlimited amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, pollution regulation and, yes, transportation policy that may shift consumer buying habits and help a nation reduce its addiction to your product. A few $10,000's spread to a handful of foundation-supported propaganda mills, repeated by a few dozens of corporations, and you've got a tidy little propaganda industry, for very little outlay.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/23/771329/-Sunday-Train:-Ed-Morris-Duped-by-Libertarian-HSR-Hackery
We may need to see who works for the Florida Petroleum Council!
The Florida Petroleum Council is a division of the American Petroleum Institute.
http://dmica12.googlepages.com/davidr.micabioinfo
These groups have been around for 75 years or more. In most states the original highway systems were built with railroad tax money! In Florida, every able bodied man had to give the state 1? week of road building duty or he could be jailed, back around 1912.
While High Speed Rail is a great idea, in the USA it will need to track-share with our freight railroads. Even the many Billion Dollar California plan calls for track sharing. The heavy weight of freight trains will keep that track from EVER being what France or Japan have. There is a point here, do we waste Billions to catch a few MPH increase? USDOT is only shooting for 110 MPH on most systems including the large Midwest HSR plan.
I would contend that Florida has already screwed this up TWICE, a fact that is well known to railroaders and their enemy's. (Something in and of itself that puts us behind in the race BTW). We need to get the FEC route and the Jacksonville - Orlando as well as the Jacksonville - Ocala - Tampa routes on that map. Quit the, "move the railroad to I-4, JTB, 95 or anything else," talk and improve what we have to 110 MPH. The trains used to reach near those speeds HERE back in 1940, who says we can't do it again? Besides we are not going to realize the benefit of HSR'S biggest selling point DOWNTOWN to DOWNTOWN, if we're planning stations on I-795.
Florida? TIME TO PULL OUR HEADS OUT!
OCKLAWAHA
FYI....there will be no track sharing with the Florida plan....the rail will be owned by the State and run down the median of I-4, the Beachline Expwy, and I-95.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2009, 07:46:20 AM
FYI....there will be no track sharing with the Florida plan....the rail will be owned by the State and run down the median of I-4, the Beachline Expwy, and I-95.
IMO. Yes, with the current plan we are going to have a Federal/State High Speed Rail "Skyway" Project.
I predict it will be millions over cost, fail to come close to ridership, quit and remain a broken partial system forever. Florida, has so little experience or success with anything but highways. Without the history of a longer term dedication to passenger rail and the supporting feeder rail and transit, this thing is headed for a collision with reality. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 08:50:12 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2009, 07:46:20 AM
FYI....there will be no track sharing with the Florida plan....the rail will be owned by the State and run down the median of I-4, the Beachline Expwy, and I-95.
IMO. Yes, with the current plan we are going to have a Federal/State High Speed Rail "Skyway" Project.
I predict it will be millions over cost, fail to come close to ridership, quit and remain a broken partial system forever. Florida, has so little experience or success with anything but highways. Without the history of a longer term dedication to passenger rail and the supporting feeder rail and transit, this thing is headed for a collision with reality.
OCKLAWAHA
I disagree with you Ock, and here is that quote again from another Passenger Rail expert:
QuoteJust as the freeway spurred greater auto usage and auto centric development, high speed rail can and will spur more mass transit usage and rail connections to and from a major station.
We should not fear building HSR in cities without great mass transit systems. HSR can be the catalyst to improving mass transit.
QuoteJust as the freeway spurred greater auto usage and auto centric development, high speed rail can and will spur more mass transit usage and rail connections to and from a major station.
Which came first? Roads or Freeways? Certainly roads were with us several century's before the freeway. Freeways only came about as traffic reached a point where the military felt it would impede rapid troop movements. Traffic had to reach a saturation point on surface streets and at the same time we dismantled our mass transit systems nationwide.
You could build endless freeways to and fro in small towns across America and they wouldn't carry any more people then the surface roads do today. There is NO DEMAND for them in small towns due to a lack of feeder roads in place, so they are not built. You do not go and build freeway and pray for connections. QuoteWe should not fear building HSR in cities without great mass transit systems. HSR can be the catalyst to improving mass transit
"Improving mass transit?" WHAT MASS TRANSIT? 22.4 miles of "Metro Rail" in Miami/Dade, 2.4 miles of streetcar in Tampa, 4.4 miles of Metro Mover in Miami, 2.5 miles of Jacksonville Skyway, and you can toss in a few more miles if you count BRT as fixed mass transit. 31.7 miles of mass transit systems in place for a state of 65,758 square miles, larger then Greece or Austria. Still think Florida has mass transit? JTA is the third largest system in the State and I wonder how often YOUR bus comes by?
California was the last place on earth anyone expected to embrace mass transit, especially Los Angeles. But embrace it they have, the State has invested millions, perhaps billions of dollars in a statewide Amtrak medium-high speed corridor system, as well as extensive transit in the major cities. Subway, Heavy Rail, Elevated, Light Rail, Streetcars, Exclusive Bus Rapid Transitways, Commuter Rail etc.. One can now step off an Amtrak train at Union Station in the center of Los Angeles, and leave via several transit choices without ever walking outside! TRY THAT IN FLORIDA!
I have never understood why it is that Florida seems to be able to eat more ground for a freeway interchange then any other state. Why Florida will not use an existing two lane highway and simply add two more, rather then a massive destroy and rebuild the whole thing design. The same mentality that went into Skyway planning, and BRT planning and now HSR planning. "We don't need to do our homework, we don't need to take baby steps, we're Florida!" Famous last words, "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, and concrete to concrete..."OCKLAWAHA
I so Disagree with you and John Mica who has also expressed lack of support for HSR in FL.
This is what I believe:
QuoteJump aboard high-speed rail
By WILL WEATHERFORD
Special To The Tampa Tribune
Florida has an unprecedented opportunity to move forward to address our state's mobility issues and take steps necessary to remain competitive in the new global economy.
The state recently submitted its application to compete for high-speed rail funds designated by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) of 2009. Securing the high-speed rail project would connect the state's diverse communities and tourist attractions, stimulate high-tech jobs and would be a competitive attractor for business and investment long term.
ARRA designated $8 billion for investments in high-speed rail and has the potential to designate an additional $5 billion. Florida is uniquely positioned to compete for these funds based on the previous work of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority (FHSRA) and the continuing commitment of the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT).
FDOT has invested hundreds of millions of dollars in preparing the Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor for high-speed rail, including purchasing and preserving the right-of-way necessary to build a system. FDOT and FHSRA are to be applauded for this work and their vision.
Economically, Florida is a great location for one of the first true high-speed rail projects in America. The combined Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor encompasses 23 counties, 8 million residents, 4.4 million workers and 338,000 business establishments with $40 billion in sales, as well as attracts millions of visitors from around the world each year, all in need of a more efficient means to travel across this corridor.
Beyond the state commitment to transit, both regions that make up the Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor have made large community commitments and investments into local transit alternatives over the past decade. These regional efforts will greatly support and enhance the ability for high-speed rail to work efficiently and effectively along the Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor.
Further, a federal investment in high-speed rail will greatly boost local transit efforts and encourage local communities to speed up implementation, creating a true win-win for our citizens.
Beyond the initial Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor, FHSRA and FDOT have long-term goals to study and build an Orlando-Miami corridor project and ultimately extend the system to Jacksonville.
Florida's application for high-speed rail funds is extremely competitive, and our state is well prepared to deliver one of the first true high-speed rail projects in America.
To be successful, Florida's elected leaders must voice strong commitment and support for our state's application and make high-speed rail a top priority.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/18/na-jump-aboard-high-speed-rail/news-opinion-commentary/
Give me that existing rail in Flemming Island, Green Cove Springs, Orange Park, Marietta, Baldwin, Lackawana, Callahan, Hilliard, Yulee, Riverside, Avondale, Ortega, Yukon, Durkeeville, Springfeild, San Marco, San Jose, Avenues, Downtown St. Augustine and Downtown Jacksonville at connected to Amtrak 110mph over Jax International, Orlando International and Miami International at 220mph. I guess on the HSR side I should list Tampa's airport instead of Jax.
I saw in another thread that John Mica supported a HSR initiatve.
Call me cynical, but it I fear his support might be more an indication of who his allies are (contractors likely to be awarded huge infrastructure contracts + Land developers/investors) than his desire for mass transit.
I am certainly no expert on rail nor mass transit, but it does occur to me that High Speed Rail would require entirely new infrastructure, and perhaps land. Is this the case?
Forget the cost. Disregard historical and empirical data. A brand new, state of the art high speed rail system would be... Neato.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2536/3852456053_52d3029afa.jpg)
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 01:00:16 PM
Give me that existing rail in Flemming Island, Green Cove Springs, Orange Park, Marietta, Baldwin, Lackawana, Callahan, Hilliard, Yulee, Riverside, Avondale, Ortega, Yukon, Durkeeville, Springfeild, San Marco, San Jose, Avenues, Downtown St. Augustine and Downtown Jacksonville at connected to Amtrak 110mph over Jax International, Orlando International and Miami International at 220mph. I guess on the HSR side I should list Tampa's airport instead of Jax.
AMEN! QuoteEconomically, Florida is a great location for one of the first true high-speed rail projects in America. The combined Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor encompasses 23 counties, 8 million residents, 4.4 million workers and 338,000 business establishments with $40 billion in sales, as well as attracts millions of visitors from around the world each year, all in need of a more efficient means to travel across this corridor.
8 Million people and not one of them lives on I-4, but of course darling, we could always build more city along the freeway. QuoteBeyond the state commitment to transit, both regions that make up the Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor have made large community commitments and investments into local transit alternatives over the past decade. These regional efforts will greatly support and enhance the ability for high-speed rail to work efficiently and effectively along the Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor.
The State commitment to WHAT? Just what local transit alternatives have been built in this corridor in the past decade? This is pure wishful thinking. QuoteFurther, a federal investment in high-speed rail will greatly boost local transit efforts and encourage local communities to speed up implementation, creating a true win-win for our citizens.
Do I sense another order of Gillig Transit Buses headed to Florida? We sure aren't doing anything else. Besides the communities are all located over on the CSX mainline, not I-4. So does this really have anything to do with sound transportation policy or are the developers along I-4 using this as another tool of sprawl, laughing all the way to the bank. QuoteBeyond the initial Tampa Bay-Orlando corridor, FHSRA and FDOT have long-term goals to study and build an Orlando-Miami corridor project and ultimately extend the system to Jacksonville.
We'll be long dead and gone before that train rolls into Jacksonville. Florida would be much better served by an "AMTRAK FLORIDA" State - Federal corridor rail system. TUFSU1, the new issue of "RAILWAY AGE" is worth the read, you can do so on line. It covers the why and how of the track-share program. See the illustration above, from the California High Speed Corridor, note the freight train, the animation has even more freight scenes. Amtrak WILL have access to the HSR in Central Florida, if it's ever built. I wouldn't hold my breath that we'll EVER see it here. Good luck with the TPO meetings, I'll be at tonight's and perhaps tomorrows. Our readers should make it a point to mob the place and VOICE an OPINION. OCKLAWAHA
Ock...no one lives on the freeway, but it still carries people....trains (even on the freeway) can do the same thing!
I am in favor of the speed up enhanced services Amtrak plan but I do believe HSR could work.
It will work between MCO and Disney. However, I'm not sure it will attract significant numbers in Polk or even Tampa. I guess it depends on how much tickets will cost? Does anyone have any idea?
They'll be giving them away to prevent blackout Sundays from hitting the High Speed Rail! If it runs on hourly headways, somebody better figure out how many people come into MCO to go exclusively to Disney without a rental car... PER HOUR.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock...that's already been figured out....Disney committed to put all of their passengers that currently get from MCO to the park by bus onto the train....
of course, that committment only exists if the Greeneway route is chosen, so there can't be a stop near the Convention Center, Sea World, and Universal!
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2009, 09:12:52 PM
Ock...that's already been figured out....Disney committed to put all of their passengers that currently get from MCO to the park by bus onto the train....
of course, that committment only exists if the Greeneway route is chosen, so there can't be a stop near the Convention Center, Sea World, and Universal!
But of course tufsu1, I have a good friend who is a retired WDW EXEC... He says the best secret in Florida is that Mickey is not a MOUSE! He is a RAT!
So once again we build only to support a damn theme park and the sundry developers trying to cash in on Mickeys coat tails. To hell with Kissimmee, Haines City, Lake Alfred, Auburndale, Lakeland DOWNTOWN, Plant City etc...
M. I. C. K. E. Y. M. O. U. S. E. OCKLAWAHA
This just in from FDOT:
QuoteYesterday, the Florida Department of Transportation submitted its track 1b application under the federal High Speed/Intercity Passenger Rail program Seeking $30 million to initiate Preliminary engineering and environmental review (NEPA) for the Orlando-Miami segment of the Florida high speed rail program. Following is a link to the Department's web page where the application is posted. A second link is also provided containing the letters and resolutions received in support of this application. The Department intends to submit another application on October 2 under track 2 of the program that will cover the design and construction of the Orlando-Tampa project.
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Track1b-Application.pdf
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Support.pdf
Quote from: lindab on August 25, 2009, 03:32:34 PM
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/rail/Support.pdf
Excellent support document!!
Some interesting arguments in favor:
Much of the 84 million in tourists is used to traveling by train at home.
Gives large elderly population alternatives that take them off the freeway where they may cause safety issues.
Quoteauthor=FayeforCure
Gives large elderly population alternatives that take them off the freeway where they may cause safety issues.
We already know the Orlando - Tampa segment as planned is a complete farce, a Federal-State funded theme park ride for Disney, we can only hope they have altered the Orlando - Miami alignment so it actually goes through corridors where people live. The original plan to zip down the Kissimmee River Valley is another land grab for sprawl developers.
Faye? Since Orlando - Tampa, goes nowhere near where any major population base is (between the end points) I can't see how it will help the elderly or any other resident. OCKLAWAHA
I would also imagine that of any age demographic, 'the elderly' would be least likely to want to ride HSR. They've worked hard all their lives for their Buick and Cadicllac and Lexus land-yachts. They're not going to be as inclined to hop on the train as others. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Doctor_K on September 02, 2009, 10:23:30 AM
I would also imagine that of any age demographic, 'the elderly' would be least likely to want to ride HSR. They've worked hard all their lives for their Buick and Cadicllac and Lexus land-yachts. They're not going to be as inclined to hop on the train as others. Just my opinion.
Well, if we look at demographic studies of train ridership, you'd see that most train users own a car.
http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/05/22/dept-of-demographics-who-rides-transit/
I'm not arguing that point. I just am of the opinion that 'the elderly' would be car-owning non-train users. :)
Sorry Dr. K, you should look at who uses the Amtrack Auto Train sometime. Mostly white heads there. Those of us above (cough) a certain age would rather not drive long distances especially if it means driving at night. If I never have to drive I-95 to Miami or I-4 to anywhere it would be wonderful.
Fair enough. I happily stand corrected. Thanks for the insight, Dog Walker. Surprising, but it makes sense.