Metro Jacksonville

(http://www.jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/editorial/images/images/mdControlled/cms/2009/07/27/471225085.jpg)

QuoteBill Howes and George Bollinger are old railroad guys working to preserve an old train.

Howes, 70, and Bollinger, 68, both CSX retirees, have been leading efforts to save a rare steam engine, Atlantic Coast Line locomotive No. 1504, located in the Prime Osborn Convention Center's back parking lot.

"It's important that we prevent further deterioration in this train," said Bollinger, secretary of the North Florida chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. "I'd like to see the train utilized again, but I realize that's probably a long shot."

Howes and Bollinger remember watching steam trains operate around the end of World War II, when they were children.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-27/story/retired_rail_employees_fight_to_preserve_old_train_in_jacksonville

George is a great guy and huge proponent of Commuter Rail and Amtrak. His group has been very active in lobbying our local officials, JTA, the City and FDOT. Keep up the good work fellas!

It would be great to see this locomotive restored.

Here is an article Metro Jacksonville did last year on it:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453067692_KCor3-M.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-atlantic-coast-line-1504

Where was this excitement back when the CITY had money for non-profits? Timing is everything. I would love to see something done with it, even put a shelter over it to protect against the sun. Can we deem it a park so it gets some tax revenue as a park?

(http://www.ritaktaylor.com/default_files/old_steam_locomotive_12.JPG)

RAILROADESE 101 (Ocks fun rant).

Okay guys, IT IS NOT A TRAIN. It has no lights, flags or markers, meaning it's just a DEAD piece of equipment, if it were still on live track the track would have to be "blue flagged," which is a step ahead of a Stop Sign. In railroading, a blue flag means someone is working on equipment and thus the track is TOTALLY OFF LIMITS. Railroaders never - never - never - EVER pass a blue flag or operate on a blue flagged track. Also by definition, the lack of markers, lights and/or white or green flags on either side of the smoke box mean the old gal is not a train, no train will enter live rail without the proper orders and "markers".

Two white flags, mounted on either side of the smokebox (front of the boiler) would mean that this is an "Extra train", not normally found in the schedules. Extra's come out to play when industry, orders or economics really start to move. Most local switch train jobs are extras, as such they are the lowest priority train and MUST take the siding whenever they meet a superior train.

Two green flags, can only mean the railroad is very healthy. Let's say train 386, has 120 freight cars, if you add a caboose (rare today) then it's 121 cars long. Due to some short steep grades north of Savannah as well as West of Orlando, the train is running with 4 large locomotives. That much weight hanging on those coupler knuckles could pull the coupler out, break it like glass or even cause a derailment. What to do? split the train into 2 trains of 60 and 61 cars respectively. Green flags are mounted on the first locomotive of the first train. This is a sign to all railroaders that there is a "SECTION FOLLOWING". So where we once had only #386 we now have #386 and "SECOND 386."

Storage has been the worst of masters for this grand lady of the rails. Rain goes down that smokestack and puddles, rusting the smokebox and doing unknown damage to boiler tubes. To get her in working condition all pipes, wheel bearings, rods, links etc would have to be removed. A hydrostatic would have to be run on boiler and fittings. She would look fine inside the transportation center, at track one, just ahead of the PV cars.

We are in an age with the thousands of locomotives donated and displayed all over the nation in small towns and cities, are reaching a vital, fix it or die time frame. Quite a few steam and diesel engines have been removed from city parks and placed in rehab. Florida has several as do tiny prairie towns, Jacksonville Beach has a beauty in its historical village. It could also be that if we wish to lead this field toward a transportation museum we may be able to buy some classic engines now displayed. Altus, Oklahoma has a very rare 2 - 10 - O sitting out in the elements, Duncan, Oklahoma likewise has a HUGE Rock Island steam engine in a park, we could go hunting! We wouldn't want the 1504 to get lonely. Meanwhile, somebody PLEASE COVER THAT SMOKESTACK.

OCKLAWAHA
"Just a little color to honor the memory of Mr. Champ."

Ock, you should forward your rant over to the TU.  Perhaps they'll correct their title or get it right the next time?

I've already sent an e-mail to Larry Hannan advising him that this is not a train. It is a locomotive. Have not heard back yet.

so what happened at the hearing last week i was out of town, would the COJ let a small group of us resore 1504 or even paint it I WOULD LOVE TO HELP!!!!!  I have a bucket that will fit  in the stack but every time i go down there to climb up and put it on there 2 JSO cars in the lot  I don't feel like getting arrested . 

If the COJ would allow us help, we could form a nonprofit and fund raise and apply for grants. I thought 1504 was already on the  National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark list .because 1504 and B&O 4500 are USRA locomotive left over from that era 1504 because she almost as-is and 4500 because she  was the first. I think it would be allfull if  something with that much history just rust away and get sold for scrap. other city's have aloud there  locomotives to be restored,that have been in parks just as long or longer as 1504. if we disconnected the rods and  oiled her wheel bearings and place some snap track to get her back to the main line. then  rent a building with a siding that's close to where she could run on the S-line.  then  a small group of us could get her ready  enough to have 1504 deadheaded (or pulled) to that location.

What happened at the meeting...

The Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission voted unanimously to recommend that the City Council designated ACL #1504 as a Local Landmark.  The application has now been forwarded to Council for their vote for the designation, should happen within the next couple of months.

After that, who knows...The designation of a property or site as a local landmark does not guarantee any funding or restoration.  It simply states that this is something of local significance and any future restoration, movement, etc, requires the review of the Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/233/454429592_845e3bf112.jpg)
...and no to my environmentalist friends, a steam engine running well and not posing for photos emits very little smoke, this shot is pure Hollywood.  

Quote from: aubureck on July 31, 2009, 12:47:47 PM
What happened at the meeting...

The Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission voted unanimously to recommend that the City Council designated ACL #1504 as a Local Landmark.  The application has now been forwarded to Council for their vote for the designation, should happen within the next couple of months.

After that, who knows...The designation of a property or site as a local landmark does not guarantee any funding or restoration.  It simply states that this is something of local significance and any future restoration, movement, etc, requires the review of the Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department

Historic Preservation Section of the Planning and Development Department? Oh Lord, she'll get bulldozed into a pile of razor blades for certain now! Unless we blow her up!

I'm all for forming a group to save and restore her but I wouldn't get too excited about steam trips down the "S" line until a complete mechanical is done. The boiler will have to be removed, new flues, etc... Easily a million dollars or more. The closest steam shop is probably in Pennsylvania, unless Spencer or Roanoke could still do the job.

On the positive side, having a restored ACL USRA PACIFIC TYPE LOCOMOTIVE running around the country to special events with a name like "City of Jacksonville", would bring untold large amounts of goodwill and PR to our city. How many are old enough to remember the freedom train? What about the operation lifesaver TEXAS TYPE that high stepped into town? Anyone ride the Southern Railways excursions to Valdosta? Bet you remember the details like it was yesterday. Ever notice how that massive Texan caused a localized earthquake??????????????????? Did you know that Union Pacific's BIG BOY TYPE engines weigh in at over 1,000,000 pounds wet? AWESOME! What we need is a benefactor for rail and steam age history in this town, anyone want to ante up?

OCKLAWAHA

These are some spectacular photos.  If anyone would like to see some other railroad memorabilia, please stop by our WNHS museum in Callahan.  We're trying to keep our own heritage alive and have some pretty good exhibits.  I hope the rail employees are successful.  Please check our website at http://www.wnhsfl.org/ (http://www.wnhsfl.org/).  We're usually open the second and fourth Saturdays of each month.  Just for your information, we have a new pool hall which serves breakfast starting at 5 am.  It's called Mark's Pool Hall and their food is great.  I tried them out earlier this week.

stephendare:  That was interesting.  You might be interested in stopping by our WNHS museum and also taking a look at the one in Fernandina Beach -- http://www.ameliamuseum.org/  (http://www.ameliamuseum.org/) .  We’ve got a lot of railroad related material at WNHS and the one at Fernandina Beach is really good, too.  Check out our schedule: http://www.wnhsfl.org/ (http://www.wnhsfl.org/) .

You put in your latest just as I was writing this.  I'll take a look at it but here's what I wrote:  If you like, we'll get together one Saturday and you can have breakfast at Mark's Pool Hall then go to the WNHS museum.  Let me know when you'd like to come by.  The same goes for anyone else who'd like to come.  Marks serves good food at reasonable prices.  They, I think I've said this elsewhere, start serving breakfast at 5 am.  

Stephendare:
Very interesting info on the Cummer Sons Cypress Company and your family's ties to it. The Cummers were no strangers to Nassau County. The majority of timberland in Nassau County were owned and harvested by them roughly between 1910s and 1940s. The West Nassau Historical Society is currently doing research on the Cummer Logging Tram Line that stretched from the Cummer Camp southeast of Hilliard to a unloading dock on the Trout River in Dinsmore in Duval County.  We have pictures of the old tram bed which is still visible in several areas of Nassau and Duval Counties as well as the concrete base that once held the crane that unloaded the logs from the train to the river. If you have any info or photos of this line, I would love to see them.

Regarding the initial post of the train (er, locomotive) restoration at the Prime Osborn Center, I am glad someone is taking the initiative to restore it. The West Nassau Historical Society is in the middle of their own rail car refurbishment: A 1962 ACL caboose that has long been the victim of the weather and the elements. Although it now sports a fresh coat of bright red paint, the interior is in far worse condition.  The Society hopes to have the interior ready for visitors by next year's Railroad Days Festival in March 2010.  We set up work days to coincide with the open hours of the Museum inside the Callahan Depot, so please let us know if you decide to accept Macbeth25's invitation and revisit Callahan one Saturday.

And for all of the rail and history fans and visitors who are planning to come to Nassau County, there is a new blog on line that covers trains and trails of Nassau County.  http://trainsandtrailsofnassaucountyfla.blogspot.com/

Thanks
JHenry459

If you watch Masterpiece Theater or Harry Potter movies you will see some wonderful old English steam engines and trains.  It is my understanding that these engines and trains are restored and run by volunteer groups (probably with some gov't funding) and that they make a good deal of money by renting them out for these productions.

Can anyone remember the last time you saw a steam engine in an American movie?

It is obvious that diesel/electric locomotives are more efficient than the old steam locomotives, but they are boring in comparison and not photogenic at all.

JHenry, is that the caboose sitting by the old depot?  How much work needs to be done to it?

jbroadglide:
Yes, its the ACL caboose sitting beside the Callahan Depot. It and the depot was moved to their present location in 1987 as part of a major depot restoration project. Unfortunately for whatever reasons, the caboose was never converted into the usable space that was planned for it. Down through the years the rail car sat idle and neglected and unused except for storage. Its roof leaked for countless years, destroying most of the ceiling and flooring.  In 2006 the West Nassau Historical Society began several major fund raising projects starting with the 2006 Railroad Days Festival. After repainting the inside and outside of the depot and converting the main freight room into the West Nassau Museum of History, the group has refocused its resources on the caboose. In May of 2008, volunteers repainted the rail car by hand: replacing the faded battleship gray used by CSX during its 1980s "Family Lines" era to the bright fiery red of today.  (The Rail Purist may argue that the true ACL caboose was orange and not red, but that is a whole nother story) We are currently working in the interior of the east end which took the brunt of the elements.  We had to remove the entire flooring, walls and ceiling of that end in order to rebuild from scratch. With the dog days of summer in full swing, the progress is slow but nonetheless moving in the right direction. Fortunately, the center cupola section seems to be in good shape and the west end still has the old stove, water closet, and generator.  Only 20 percent of the west end flooring and 60% of the west end walls and ceiling were lost.  Our goal is to have it ready for visitors by the time our 5th Railroad Days Festival in March 2010 rolls around.  The Museum is open the 2nd and 4th Saturdays of each month from 9AM to 2PM. We have a fund raising dinner planned the next Museum Day, August 22nd, starting around 10:30 or so.  We also have a fund raising yard sale and farmers market planned for Saturday, September 12th. Couple of us may be inside the caboose working for a couple hours until it gets hot on these days, so stop by before noon and say hello and take a look inside.  I will try to post a pic of it here soon

JHenry459

Heres hoping the discussion about rebuilding the Gross cutoff doesn't happen or its gonna go right through the middle of the depot and the caboose if memory serves me correctly. I applaud all your efforts at getting it restored. I belong to the ACL/SAL Railroads Historical Society and our next annual meeting in Jax is Feb 19-21, 2010. I may mention to attendees to take a ride to Callahan and have a look at it and the depot that weekend.
Thanks for the info
JB

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 11, 2009, 04:23:37 PM
If you watch Masterpiece Theater or Harry Potter movies you will see some wonderful old English steam engines and trains.  It is my understanding that these engines and trains are restored and run by volunteer groups (probably with some gov't funding) and that they make a good deal of money by renting them out for these productions.

Can anyone remember the last time you saw a steam engine in an American movie?

It is obvious that diesel/electric locomotives are more efficient than the old steam locomotives, but they are boring in comparison and not photogenic at all.

Biloxi Blues? At least I think that was the movie. Interesting point though, the COJ could probably make some bucks if good old 1504 was restored.

Perhaps our first assignment should be The History Channel. History Channel doesn't play that many movies but EVERY SINGLE TIME they do a railroad scene they screw it up bad. Watch the special on Oil - with all the little 4 wheel cars on the Dutch Railways. Watch the segment on Galveston and the great flood, all those poor folks were on trains from the UK trying to get around Texas. Boy did THEY miss their train.

OCKLAWAHA

Don't forget the great Locomotive chase scene in "Stand by me"....When the stack smoke was blowing up over the trees before they heard it...got my adrenaline up!

gbroadglide:
The depot/caboose is definitely sitting on the abandoned 1856 Florida Railroad bed and would be affected if indeed CSX did decide to use the entire length of bed from Gross to Callahan.  Personally I would love it if they did run it thru Callahan because then they would have to move the depot somewhere and I would love to see it on the Southwest side of the CSX main line/Baldwin sub split.  We could set the depot up like the "Point of Rocks" station in Maryland, complete with clock tower and observation platform. However, there would be stiff opposition from many including FDOT because of  the traffic congestion it would cause, especially at the US 1/US 23  and CR 108 grade crossings. I look for a compromise where CSX would run their track from Gross to a point mid way to Callahan then follow the FPL power lines westward to the CSX main line a couple miles north of Callahan. At that point we could negotiate turning the rest of the bed into a trail.

Every several years a movement stirs in Nassau County to convert the Gross Line into a rail trail. Unfortunately, it ususally hits a road block and fizzles out.  The movement is back again and with CSX showing an interest to put in a much needed rail link from Nassau to the new ports of Jax, there may be some progress in getting a trail in Nassau this time around. 

I have dealt with the ACL/SAL Historical Society in the past and you guys are great. Several members came and set up a table inside the Callahan Depot at the first Railroad Days Festival in 2006. I love to stop by your booth at the Rail show at Prime Osborn every February: the ACL/SAL calendar always has a old photo of Callahan (or one year Crawford or Hilliard) and I have several of Goolsby's prints of the Callahan trains. Ted Strickland stopped by last year with a couple of members while I happened  to be at the depot and I showed them the inside of the station.  Let me know if your group decides to make a trip to Callahan and we will meet you at the depot.  We have another project in the works besides the caboose: We were given 2 wheel axle assemblies that were found buried just east of Callahan. They date to around 1905-1910. We are having them sandblasted, primed and painted and will have them back on the depot grounds by early September. We will probably make some benches to set on top of them so they can be enjoyed without altering them.

Hope to see you soon
JHenry459

Pretty neat story... Its kind of a shame the Locomotive ( Is that the correct term for this "train" ?) was not placed under some sort of shelter.   Hope it does get a new paintjob at least.  Pretty cool, Stephen, that your uncle did a renovation on it once.. I remember when this one sat elsewhere...seems like closer to the river?? that was long ago... I was a young child then.

Funny you brought this back up. I was passing by the Terminal just this morning & decided to go snooping for the 1504 Locomotive.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2312/5712747733_ffe27988d1_z.jpg)

I can't believe they've got it just sitting there out all to itself away from everything. No one passing by it, looking at it, nothing.

I mean, a parking lot?? I got to thinking about it. That's insulting to a steam locomotive. It's kinda like they're purposely trying to by socking it there in a place that was built for automobiles, being surrounded by the things that killed it.

Its the mentality of days gone by... a Beautiful Old Locomotive that should be a focal point ,,,not an afterthought.

Here are a couple of pictures of 1504 that I took myself, sometime around 1974.  At that time the locomotive was in front of the SCL (now CSX) building, and it was a very well maintained landmark.  

It really should go back to someplace near the CSX building, or

Maybe it could be put back into running condition?

Sorry to hear about your Uncle, Stephen.  Does Ock know of some possibilities?  He commented about something possibly being cracked on the the locomotive?  I cannot remember..

Anyway... to the above pictures... This was near SCL?  Thats what I kind of remember as a child..that it was much closer to the River.. also all of the old buildings in the background,and the First Federal logo.......all gone :(.

But I agree , the Piece should be moved from Prime Osbourne...unless of course it became a Train Terminal again, and then it should be moved to become some sort of focal point.

When the CSX building first opened, the area in front of the building was set up so that the building was the backdrop for the locomotive. 

I regret that I didn't take a picture from that angle, but I know where I could find a picture like that.

The effort seems more geared to getting her up and outta there and back on track for a FULL restoration. I had heard for years that she has a cracked frame, then more recently that she doesn't. If true, she's not going anywhere but another pedestal. The exciting part if false, take a look at the height of those driving wheels! This is no "old work horse," she is a RACE HORSE. Put back in operating condition running that engine on various special trains, excursions etc. could be the east coast equivalent of the famous Southern Pacific Daylight engine that the City of Portland OR, sent around the nation pulling the 1976 FREEDOM TRAIN. What a visible ambassador for the City of Jacksonville, CSX, the railfan community, and various local clubs and historical societies.

"Okay, Ock... just how fast can an old steamer go?" Well y'all, she could scorch the ballast and depending on how the shop force turned her out, she would have no trouble breaking the 100 mph mark. If tuned for speed on today's glass smooth track, she could even set a record which hovers between 120-130 for steam locomotives worldwide.

As for her days in front of the office building, up in freight car tracing some early day I.T. genius set up the system so when the numbers 1504 were entered the computer lit up with..."LOOK OUT THE WINDOW STUPID!"

OCKLAWAHA

Ock... who owns the Locomotive Now? the City?  and do you know of someone who could bring her back to life?

Quote from: Timkin on May 12, 2011, 08:42:21 PM
Ock... who owns the Locomotive Now? the City?  and do you know of someone who could bring her back to life?

Just show up with your tool box and we'll go right to work! Otherwise the VP mechanical dept of the old Coast Line is a friend and depending on his health, boy could he lead us... BTW, he has a steam engine in his garage in Ortega! No kidding! Last I knew of the old gal was before I left for loftier climes in the Andes, so my knowledge is dated. My guess is she is CSX property on loan to the city, lease or some other legally binding agreement. If she was given to the city then Parks and anyone else responsible for her open air condition needs a good butt whooping.

OCKLAWAHA

1504 = Hiro

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xccxke_thomas-meets-hiro-us-dub_shortfilms

Quote from: peestandingup on May 13, 2011, 02:04:50 AM
1504 = Hiro

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xccxke_thomas-meets-hiro-us-dub_shortfilms

Parts? Really? Any complete blacksmith shop with a forge can repair her... The beauty of steam is the ability of the village blacksmith to get em rolling again.

In Colombia our steam fleet (about 90 locomoturas) are almost all Baldwin, products from the USA. Out of those perhaps 10 are operational, and another 10 or so could operate with an afternoon or two of TLC, but understand THERE ARE NO SPARE PARTS. You CAN cannibalize the others for a short time but eventually you have to make it up as you go along, and ours are SWEET. I love my little Mikado, "Gabriel."

http://www.youtube.com/v/gxF9ycdZAKk?fs=1&hl=en_US

This -100 is the condition I found the railroads in when I first arrived... Sad. For those that are interested, it looks a bit different today.

http://www.youtube.com/v/8BzLWtoTPQE?fs=1&hl=en_US

OCKLAWAHA

Check out 4:55 in Ock's first video to see a guy that really likes living on the edge.

Quote from: stephendare on May 13, 2011, 10:25:36 AM
Well Ock, its a little more than blacksmithery for Steam Power to work.  If it was easy to make Boilers work, God wouldnt have ever invented the Swedish to prove how easy it is to screw it up. ;)

ROFLMAO! Good one Stephen. In their case there has never been a machine that one couldn't fix with a sledge hammer. 

As for steam, it is a true art form, boilers are tricky and have to meet strict codes... but the machinery to turn out a steam engine is the same basic stuff found in any complete blacksmith/forge shop back in the day. Certainly it helps to know which end of the torch to hold when you light it off.

Lunican, yeah, NUCKIN FUTZ! Always some dude trying to: "Que es mas macho!" That machismo gets people killed. You do know that until a few years ago, brakemen still walked over the tops of cars on running boards. Glad they made that illegal.

OCKLAWAHA