I've been reading Jacksonville.com and noticed every time a budget is mentioned, there's always someone saying that libraries are useless and should be shut down or turned into a pay as you go system. Does anyone here know more about the anti-library movement?
No, I haven't really paid much attention to such a movement but I hope it doesn't get anywhere. I don't visit libraries anywhere as much as I did when I was younger since I have the Internet and can find a lot of information there. I also use Internet programs such as Audible.com and Netflix or Amazon UnBox for a lot of my entertainment. I believe libraries are really needed, however, and there's not a much better source for information than a good librarian. You can also find much information in the way of old newspapers and magazines. I'm afraid that if they were to be shut down, it wouldn't be very long until those that were responsible would regret it.
I love our library system. I only started using it in the last 6 months, but I am in there several times a week. My work happens to be right near one so I usually spend my lunch hour reading. The on-line access to their system and hold function makes it so easy to find and check out what you want. I was really impressed with the amount of DVDs they carry. If you can wait a week to get something, you can find about anything you search for, if it is not at the branch you visit.
I haven't seen many useful discussions on Jacksonville.com. In general I'd say that few of the folks who post there have ever seen the inside a library - or a book, for that matter.
I agree with Lucasjj...our library's online system is awesome.
There are so many socioeconomic factors that make public libraries an absolute necessity to the community. Pay-as-you-go is ridiculous, as it asserts that only those of economic means should be able to access the wealth of knowledge inside city libraries. Kind of defeats a major purpose of the library system.
Is there an anti-library movement? If not, I'd like to start one. We've got a multi-million dollar homeless docking station smack in the middle of downtown. We'd be better served with that property on the tax rolls. Wouldn't it make a beautiful Macy's? Also, the Times Union would appreciate it if you bought your own newspaper instead of reading it for free at the library, you cheap bastards.
Oh yeah, lets transform our city's Main Library to an overrated department store; That makes perfect sense. You're clearly an elitist, who looks down on unfortunate people.
Quote from: cityimrov on July 25, 2009, 01:52:36 PM
I've been reading Jacksonville.com and noticed every time a budget is mentioned, there's always someone saying that libraries are useless and should be shut down or turned into a pay as you go system. Does anyone here know more about the anti-library movement?
There isn't discussion on jacksonville.com so much as there is verbal diarrhea. The posters on that site have probably never been to a library.
Yes, I believe it would make sense to transform the Main Library into an overrated department store . A department store would attract shoppers instead of homeless. Children who needs books would still be able to still go to other library branches, or their school libraries. The bums may have to move on to some other city that has a nice place to wash up and hang out all day.
Although I don't support ridding our downtown of a library, I wish more was done to curb the homeless' use of the bathrooms as showers. I think if a revitalized downtown is the goal, an attractive library is part of that. However, I am deterred from visiting the main street library due to the prevalence of the homeless that use it as a shower and a place to cool off.
It's just part of a larger anti-intellectualism movement. It's pretty wide-spread around these parts.
The downtown library is heavily used everyday and not just by the homeless. Yes, they are there and there should be something done about them, but most of the users of the library are just like all of us. Go there on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon and there are an overwhelming number of parents bringing their children. Can you think of a better family activity than to introduce children to reading and the library.
Public libraries, like public schools, are the great democratizers in America. Generations of people have gone from poverty to riches based on self-education in the public libraries.
Go downtown and spend a couple of hours in the library. You will see an absolute cross section of the people of this city there.
I enjoy the downtown library though I do not visit as often as I would like. Yes there are homeless folks roaming but never once have I been interrupted or disrupted from doing what I wanted to do. If a few of them pick up a book or find a job while surfing the net then perhaps it is not such a bad thing...
Quote from: JMac on July 25, 2009, 11:41:46 PM
Is there an anti-library movement? If not, I'd like to start one. We've got a multi-million dollar homeless docking station smack in the middle of downtown. We'd be better served with that property on the tax rolls. Wouldn't it make a beautiful Macy's? Also, the Times Union would appreciate it if you bought your own newspaper instead of reading it for free at the library, you cheap bastards.
Ah, another person who knows the cost of everything, and the value of nothing.
Secondly, I'm sure Macy's has no desire to open in DT Jax, or else it would make moves in that direction.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 26, 2009, 11:29:26 AM
I enjoy the downtown library though I do not visit as often as I would like. Yes there are homeless folks roaming but never once have I been interrupted or disrupted from doing what I wanted to do. If a few of them pick up a book or find a job while surfing the net then perhaps it is not such a bad thing...
Well, BridgeTroll, if you look anything like your avatar, its no wonder they don't bother you! :)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 26, 2009, 04:01:03 PMWell, BridgeTroll, if you look anything like your avatar, its no wonder they don't bother you! :)
No, in real life BT could never pull off the "loin cloth and boots" look. He's more a post-modern Hawaiian shirt kinda guy.
:D :D I only try the loin cloth and boots look at home... :D :D
Quote from: I-10east on July 26, 2009, 04:10:58 AM
Oh yeah, lets transform our city's Main Library to an overrated department store; That makes perfect sense. You're clearly an elitist, who looks down on unfortunate people.
Wow I-10?
For you anything more than Wal-Mart is overrated and over priced.
And anyone who likes to buy nice unique merchandise and shop in a store that offers selection and variety, is an elitist.
Thank god I'm an elitist!
And by the way I love the DT library. And of course I don't think it should be converted into a department store.
Quote from: avonjax on July 26, 2009, 08:04:16 PM
Wow I-10?
For you anything more than Wal-Mart is overrated and over priced.
And anyone who likes to buy nice unique merchandise and shop in a store that offers selection and variety, is an elitist.
Thank god I'm an elitist!
Elitist usually look down on others, because of financial status (homeless, janitors etc.). I wouldn't necessarily call someone who like nice things an elitist. Most of the upscale stores in Jax are in the burbs, and you (avonjax) really hate it out there, so what does it matter anyway? Nice Walmart dig, even though it's not totally accurate.
to enter a library, one should need a current library card. to obtain library card, one need to provide proof of residence and pay a fee. The shelters are not qualified as residence just like hotel should not be used as residence. Imaging someone from California stayed at Marriot for a week and borrowed all the large print Harry Potter books and never return. ;D
What is "elitist"? I find people lack of vocabulary or logic or both love to hit the crowd with big sticks. If you disagree with me or I do not like you, you are an un-America, communist, elitist, racist, Fascist, (Right or Left) extremist, M@#$ F#$% son of B#$%. It does not matter if the context applies or not. Can we just call a spade a spade?
Not unless you make sure people know you are talking about cards and not about anything else. Otherwise, someone is going to get rather annoyed with you.
Just couldn't resist saying that given one of the more unpopular meanings of the word.
You might have something there fatcat that could control or eliminate the problem with the homeless using the library as a shelter. Might need some tweaks. As always, what are other cities doing to control this problem.
I don't think there's an anti-library movement in this country as much as an anti-intellectual movement. Not to be too political here but it expanded greatly during the Bush administration. I even recall a quote from Cheney early in the administration about someone having too much book learning. It reminded me about that expression about a person being too smart for their own good. Disgusting. If anything people aren't educated enough in this country. Personally, I am always trying to educate myself on the vast nothingness I don't know.
As for the support of the library, although I don't use it, I think it's important to keep it well funded. I might be in the minority, but I have no problem raising taxes or fees if it means keeping the library fully funded.
Raising taxes to keep the library fully funded? Should we raise taxes to keep the Adult Senior centers open as well? What about the Animal Shelter on McDuff? Raising taxes does not take into account ALL of the programs out there in the 1 BILLION DOLLAR BUDGET. Forget the library as the single point of issue.
Why does Mandarin need 2 libraries 4 miles apart from each other? Murray Hill, Willowbranch, Main, are all close enough so that Main could support all of those with the need for library services. The people who built all these libraries, so close to one another, should, and I repeat, should have found a WAY to pay for the services each and every year. If I see another editorial by another board member bleeding on the need for taxes, I'll make sure to send my vomit to them COD.
I have a bad feeling we are all going to get screwed by the courthouse costing us more and more every year, as the city cannot find a way to control its own costs, and NEXT year is going to be far worse than this year.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not anti-intellectual. I may have a problem with liberal bias among college professors and some of the psuedo-intellectual, politically-correct stuff that is being taught because students are disserved, but I don't wish for anyone to miss out on the opportunity for a quality education.
I just think it's a shame that many libraries I've visited have become homeless hang outs. I suspect that the Main Library actually attracts homeless downtown. If it wasn't there, less homeless would be hanging out in Hemming Plaza and more businesses might succeed in that area. It's just wishful thinking though, obviously the library isn't going anywhere.
I remember in MA when enter the library one must show library ID and check the bags. I also remember to have to make "cat steps" because even the slightest noise get frowned upon. Library has very specific function. Anyone who is not there for that function should be asked to leave. I think the library can and should just ask the "free shower users" to leave.
I agree about the noise. I grew up with the thought process that the library is a quiet place where you talk at a whisper, if at all, and refrain from noise as much as possible. It suprises me when people hold regular volume conversations and think nothing of it. Also in this day and age, cell phones do not help the matter.
Quote from: I-10east on July 27, 2009, 03:03:07 AM
Quote from: avonjax on July 26, 2009, 08:04:16 PM
Wow I-10?
For you anything more than Wal-Mart is overrated and over priced.
And anyone who likes to buy nice unique merchandise and shop in a store that offers selection and variety, is an elitist.
Thank god I'm an elitist!
Elitist usually look down on others, because of financial status (homeless, janitors etc.). I wouldn't necessarily call someone who like nice things an elitist. Most of the upscale stores in Jax are in the burbs, and you (avonjax) really hate it out there, so what does it matter anyway? Nice Walmart dig, even though it's not totally accurate.
I never said I hated the "burbs." The thing that makes me crazy is as long as there is single plot of land, our society wants to cover it with cookie cutter subdivisions. And most of the subdivisions that were built in my lifetime have been abandoned by the pioneering suburbanites and have become our new ghettos. I know there are some exceptions. But if you ride around in many of them that were built in the 50's and 60's you will see what I mean. By way I do go to SJTC and it's upscale stores and I love the place. Wish we had some downtown; maybe one day.
Quote from: mtraininjax on July 27, 2009, 10:27:50 AM
Raising taxes to keep the library fully funded? Should we raise taxes to keep the Adult Senior centers open as well? What about the Animal Shelter on McDuff? Raising taxes does not take into account ALL of the programs out there in the 1 BILLION DOLLAR BUDGET. Forget the library as the single point of issue.
In what part of Jacksonville do you live?
Why does Mandarin need 2 libraries 4 miles apart from each other? Murray Hill, Willowbranch, Main, are all close enough so that Main could support all of those with the need for library services. The people who built all these libraries, so close to one another, should, and I repeat, should have found a WAY to pay for the services each and every year. If I see another editorial by another board member bleeding on the need for taxes, I'll make sure to send my vomit to them COD.
I have a bad feeling we are all going to get screwed by the courthouse costing us more and more every year, as the city cannot find a way to control its own costs, and NEXT year is going to be far worse than this year.
It looks like there's two sets of issues in this.
1) Library
2) Homeless
I seen homeless people in the library. For a lot of them, they spend quite a lot of time reading and learning. I've seen them read books on various different subjects and quite a lot of them are vet's who once served this country. I don't see a major problem with most of them if they aren't disturbing/annoying other people. If the odor is the problem, maybe we should have a public shower somewhere nearby for them to use. That might help restore their dignity and presentability.
I am curious about issue #2.
Let's say you ban homelessness in downtown Jacksonville (like so many people want), where will they go? If I loose my house and I'm now stuck in the street - homeless - where will I go? It might take me a few weeks or months to dig myself out of that situation. If I was one of those vet's who served my country and that service caused me to go insane, what happens to me now?
I don't know. Where did Guiliani send them?
Quote from: JMac on July 27, 2009, 04:40:49 PM
I don't know. Where did Guiliani send them?
new Jersey
An outfit called Work Source also works through many libraries to help people find and get jobs. If you like, take a look at their website: http://www.worksourcefl.com/ (http://www.worksourcefl.com/)
I go about three times a week to the South Mandarin library, and get books, music and videos. I usually ride my bike up there, but hey, if you close it, then I'll drive or get otherwise transported to the Kori Road Mandarin branch. I also go to the Main library downtown to browse about every couple of weeks, occasionally I'll find something there, too. One of the most tangible assets I have as a taxpaying citizen of Jacksonville! I have consistently survived the experience thus far.
There are a lot of folks, many seniors, who can't afford home internet access that use the computers. Without the library, many would lose what little on-line access is available. If we choose to close some branches, let's look at which ones are most used and go from there.
I love me some library. Good stuff. Cut it out and I'll have to enter a 12-step program.
Wow. Reading a lot of these posts it's clear that many of you need to spend some time in a library with a grammar book. Srsly, dawg.
JMac -- one -- Federated (that is, Macy's now) ain't comin' here -- and they certainly wouldn't come downtown.
two -- where the homeless folk gwain go?
and Julie-Annie din't send em to Joisey. He sent po'folks to Joisey. He shot dem homelefs.
Now, shootin our homelefs folks sho wood be a big help
but it's mighty on the evil side o things. You gwain start the shootin, JMac?
gmpalmer - thanks for the heads up about using proper grammar, that's really helpful.
My point is the library downtown attracts homeless transients. If it weren't there, maybe some of them would move on and a major retailer would be willing to set up shop downtown. It's seems clear that this community would rather have the library.
Quote from: JMac on July 27, 2009, 04:40:49 PM
I don't know. Where did Guiliani send them?
To work at Gracie Mansion?
I think he may have sent them to Florida.
The main library has someone who is pretty awesome that does the music showcases, I don't know who it is but I like their style. When it first opened, I said it was an amazing space that I'd only have a short time to enjoy before it became a bum daycare and I was right. For that reason, we try and visit the other locations or go after the shelters/schulzbacher opens and it clears out. It's just sad to see it decline so rapidly and I wish there was something we could do but everything is met with cries of discrimination. Excuse me for wanting a library visit that doesn't involve some crackhead trying to discretely pleasure himself under the desk.
Maybe we'll fix it one day. In the mean time I think a lot of people now view the library as obsolete when compared to the internet and sometimes it's a lot quicker but nothing is quite as satisfying to me when you actually get to dig into a big old book and extract whatever you're looking for.
Quote from: JMac on July 28, 2009, 08:51:07 AM
gmpalmer - thanks for the heads up about using proper grammar, that's really helpful.
My point is the library downtown attracts homeless transients. If it weren't there, maybe some of them would move on and a major retailer would be willing to set up shop downtown. It's seems clear that this community would rather have the library.
If you're implying we eliminate a civic asset such as the main library and allow a national retailer to move in, I think that's ridiculous. Many major cities (that's what we're striving to become, right?), have main libraries whose frequent visitors include the homeless.
Should the Boston Public Library close and ask Nordstrom to set up shop because of the homeless population? At least some of the homeless read and are educating themselves or using internet access to search for jobs. I have even walked by some terminals and saw some visitors taking training courses online.
How many books, articles and other reading materials (not including blogs, tweets or tabloids) are read by the average Jacksonville resident? No wonder our functional literacy rates are abysmal.
Keep the main library open. Support local businesses. Make downtown inviting for business owners to move in and make it a viable, not hostile, environment to make a living.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174799/ward_how_the_public_library_became_heartbreak_hotel (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174799/ward_how_the_public_library_became_heartbreak_hotel)
One asks "Where to send the bums?"
I say, "To the Jacksonville Municipal Barracks, located somewhere out on Yellow Water Road". Unfortunately, our City Leaders do not have the foresight or backbone to construct such a facility. So, we have the Library ,such as it is.
If I were in charge, at the main library, I'd section off that one big open area that has the great view of downtown and turn it into a "premium zone" of sorts that charged a fee, like $4/day to get into, had better seating and enforced more reader-focused rules like no kids and maybe a staff member dedicated to that section. It'd keep the bums out and provide extra revenue for the library.
I'm with Jerry and I think I've voiced that before as have others. Create a center of some sorts away from downtown and the distractions of urban life where the homeless, bums, whatever, have a place to sleep, eat, and crap. There would be medical facilities to aid them, drug treatment programs for those who need it, mental health counseling for those who need it, and job training.
Of course this would cost a ton of money but with land values being considerably less in the country than the city, it might cost less per person to accomplish this. Where to get the money? Well, not to poke at the wound of raising taxes, but I'm sure most of the Downtown/Riverside/Springfield residents would support some sort of one time fee/tax to rid themselves of the transient population permanently (the city would have to ensure that any new or returning bums would be extracted quickly). As for other funding, extract it from the Churches. Make them put their money where their mouth is and do the Christian thing, help others. This action would not just help the transients, but also those who live and work downtown, and possible everyone in Jacksonville.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/29/nyregion/29oneway.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper
maybe this would help solve the problem.
Where will the money come from? Well, close to $2 million if the worthless Downtown Vision Inc were dissolved. I would not mind continuing to pay the special property tax assessment if the money were put towards a Bum Town. Right now, all that money is wasted on DVI, which I repeat, is a worthless organization.
I went to check out the new library, as I'd heard the building was stunning, and the place was full of bums. I can't imagine what the bathrooms must be like in there. I don't think anybody's saying to get rid of it, I think their point is just that it's purpose as a library is being overshadowed by its de facto use as the daytime homeless shelter.
I think part of the problem must be that, for some reason that has never been adequately explained to me, all the downtown shelters seem to have a policy of kicking them out and locking the doors during the daytime. I guess that leaves them no place to go except the closest place that's open to the public, which is the library.
And with that in mind, I find it a comical comparison that if you want to go into City Hall you have to show photo ID, state what your business is inside, and get a pass from the guard desk, before you're allowed in the front door. CLEARLY, they know what's up, and are just doing nothing about it...except making sure it doesn't affect them personally.
It would seem to me to treat the Library entrance as if it were City Hall. I mean we have all of this security to gain access to a citizen owned Bldg that is on loan.......why not do the same to the Library also? We have rentacops manning City Halls entrance do the same there......after all my tax dollars pay for the facility and I do not remember seeing any vagrants last time I was inside City Hall!
The library is not the problem, but the lack of day services for the homeless certainly is. Let's face it, using the library bathroom is a much better choice than the corner light pole. If you controled the library like city hall, that might just be what happens. I believe that they set up a "day center" during the superbowl. A day center would certainly change the landscape of downtown by quite a bit. And it would cost much less than that 2 mill someone else mentioned.
CS -
Actually - there IS a security guard at the library entrance... BOTH entrances.
Just the Laura St side it's not until AFTER you go thru those electronic gates that you see them on your left. But I see your point. City hall is pretty secure, for the most part. But if an employee wanted to bring something illegal into the building, if they have their ID on them there's really nothing in their way.
It's kinda scary in its own right.
I have never been to the downtown Library. I am much close to the Deerwood branch and that's the one that I use. I have been to City Hall and the security there at least controls access to, except for the employee side. A Homeless center would probably relieve the Library issue being used by people who have no where to go or nothing to do but clog up things. Maybe the nonprofits could band together and set something up or else the Church organizations. I am not sure City could or would take it upon themselves to fund or even operate such a facility. Or maybe the business's downtown could take up a collection to fund something along those lines or maybe a special taxing district just for that function or maybe another Bed tax to cover the cost. There should be a concentrated effort to correct the issue or the issue will continue to effect downtown!
The downtown library is a great building and heavily used by everyone. Go on a Saturday and it is full of families with their kids. The library has a wonderful children's section and special programs for them. I think one of the most valuable things a parent can do is introduce their children to a library as a place to have fun and learn things.
Dog Walker.......Deerwood Library has Saturday events and based on that would guess that all of them do. I won't go downtown because of the parking situation but have no trouble showing up at a Library......especially since my tax dollars are paying for it. Our HOA Board meets there also......great place and no vagrants hanging around. Maybe there should be some place for the vagrants for day care......got lights for Laura Street and streetscape, other than the new courthouse being built don't see much going for downtown and controling vagrants of which there is a problem. Maybe the Mayor is planning on building a wing just for the vagrants?
I'd imagine Hemming Plaza being right across the street doesn't help, even though I love the location being across the street from the library.
I used to go to the library often. The courtyard on the 2nd floor was always nice to go to with my laptop or a book, but the homeless situation *is* a problem. They don't bother me until they start wanting to have a conversation with me while I'm trying to work on my computer or read my book. I don't have the heart to ask them to leave me alone, because then they'll think I'm discriminating against them due to being homeless. I honestly don't like to be bothered by anyone when I go to the library, homeless or not!
Nowadays when I go, I get what I'm looking for or browse around until I find it, and then I checkout and leave. :(
We never have any problem finding parking with a block or so of the downtown library, especially on Saturday. During the week we just hop on the Riverside Trolley in Five Points and walk up from the Landing stop downtown.
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on August 19, 2009, 09:00:36 PM
CS -
Actually - there IS a security guard at the library entrance... BOTH entrances.
Just the Laura St side it's not until AFTER you go thru those electronic gates that you see them on your left. But I see your point. City hall is pretty secure, for the most part. But if an employee wanted to bring something illegal into the building, if they have their ID on them there's really nothing in their way.
It's kinda scary in its own right.
Not anymore. It now appears there is some sort of electronic scanning device on the employee side of the entrance as well, right next to the guards station..
Quote from: jbroadglide on August 21, 2009, 02:24:51 PM
Not anymore. It now appears there is some sort of electronic scanning device on the employee side of the entrance as well, right next to the guards station..
Not at the back/service entrance though. Just need a badge with that RFID chip.