The United States tried prohibition in the '20's, I think, and then people got in their right minds and alcohol was legalized whenever. I don't drink alcohol because I don’t like the taste. I also don’t care if someone else drinks -- or even gets drunk â€" so long as they don’t bother me or my family.
I’d also prefer they hurt no one else but if they break the law, I hope they’re arrested and put in jail and kept away from me and mine. Far too many lethal accidents are caused by people who drink and drive.
I go to the Nassau County Sheriff’s office every week and write up the police arrest reports. I’ve even seen one where a man got a DUI on a lawnmower and someone else got one while driving a boat on a creek.
People liked to drink alcohol and its being illegal made it even better; in some ways, a thrill. It made sense to make it legal (you can be more sure of its quality and not being made through a method or with ingredients which might harm someone) and then tax the sales. I also do not use drugs, other than those prescribed by a physician or things like aspirin, not because I think it's sinful or will damn me to Hell, but simply because I don't like the idea.
My point is rather simple. People want to smoke marijuana or cannabis -- they're the same thing, aren't they? -- So why not make it legal and then tax them the same way you do cigarettes or any other form of tobacco. Cigarettes, pipe tobacco, cigars and smokeless tobacco have all proved harmful and it's generally accepted that they can kill.
If you legalize cigarettes, etc., and the government makes money from taxing them, why not do the same with marijuana? You’d probably reduce the number of people getting arrested and put in prison and the money you save and the even more money you earn might pay for some of the many things I think are stupid in which our government is engaged.
Marijuana, in some cases, may even be beneficial. I think some have proven that marijuana may more harmful to the body than tobacco but I don’t believe it’s been proven that everyone who smokes marijuana automatically and inevitably uses harder drugs. After all, some of those who drink beer and wine become alcoholics so what’s the difference?
Tobacco can cause cancer. OK. Alcohol can wreck your liver and your brain â€" among other things. That fact certainly doesn’t keep people from drinking.
Another thing â€" prostitution is illegal in most states but Nevada seems to do quite well with it. That’s another case of legalizing something and then policing and taxing it. I’ve been married to the same woman for 46 years and have no interest in being with anyone else, much less paying for the privilege.
I’m lucky. I feel far more comfortable with my wife than I would with anyone else. I’ve been with her more than twice as long as I was old when I met her. Even after all our years of marriage and a couple of years of knowing her before that, we’re still in love.
As I mention in my profile: we have six children, 10 grandchildren and 5 great grandchildren â€" so far â€" at least one more is on the way and all will be very welcome and loved.
But think about this. STD’s such as HIV or AIDS are dangerous and can kill. If you use an unlicensed prostitute who doesn’t get regular medical checkups or treatment if she/he needs them, you’re far more likely to get an STD than you would be, say, at Nevada’s Bunny Ranch.
You’re also more likely to open yourself up for blackmail, etc., because prostitution, both being one and using one is illegal â€" except in Nevada.
I must confess my ideas are based only upon what I’ve read and heard and I don’t have the kind of material which has been thus far expressed in the thread regarding police. I also don’t intend to get into a sniping session with anyone or waste anyone’s time by droning on and on about this subject. All I want here is to bring up a couple of topics.
One more thing: Some people believe that homosexuality is wrong. I won’t get into that discussion but think about this. It is far more likely that a promiscuous heterosexual will get an STD than a homosexual who is faithful to his/her partner.
Have at it. Let’s see what someone else thinks.
I was having a conversation about this same subject this morning with my carpool friend.
I think we should legalize marijuana and tax it.
I was out in LA visiting some friends and one had what he called his “weed cardâ€, he could go into little shops and buy marijuana with no problems. I don’t smoke or have a problem with people who do. I just don’t see it as dangerous as the media makes it out to be. To me someone using alcohol, cigarettes, or prescription drugs is more of a danger to themselves and others then some kid getting high in his room. Another thing about marijuana is you never hear of people overdosing on it.
If the government decided to legalize marijuana it could create jobs in the US and probably alleviate the Mexican drug cartels violence in the US. In addition to the harvesting of marijuana the hemp could be used as recourse as well.
If prostitution was legalized I feel it would need to me contained in a specific area, something like the red-light district.
QuoteI think some have proven that marijuana may more harmful to the body than tobacco but I don’t believe it’s been proven that everyone who smokes marijuana automatically and inevitably uses harder drugs.
Actually, there was a WHO report a few years back which said something to the effect that marijuana was less harmful than either alcohol or tobacco, over long term use. I think it came out during the Clinton administration and was suppressed as much as possible. Any wonder that I couldn't find it quickly in Google. The most harmful part of smoking marijuana is the smoke.
I too support the legalization of marijuana. If you've read any of the news reports lately (great article in the Washington Post this weekend), California is getting closer than ever to legalizing it outright. If they do, you can bet other states will follow suit.
I also support the legalization of prostitution.
The most harmful part of smoking marijuana is (to quote South Park) that it makes you okay with not doing anything. To say that it's harmless is dishonest. Not that tobacco or xanax or alcohol or hydrocodone or ritalin are harmless, either. But it's called dope and its adherents stoners for a reason.
There is no interest in Pot anymore. ANYONE can say the right thing to their Doctor and get all Xanaxed up.
("I need something for my anxiety")....yea,Anxiety is called "Life".
I am appalled when I find out what some of my Friends and aquaintences are prescribed.
And they pass drug tests with these powerful Sedatives and Opiates? Everyone on SOMA, how easy to control.
Marijuana in my opinion is more offensive than alcohol & cigarette smoke..mainly due to the smell of the smoke. Though both alcohol and marijuana are intoxicants, the "high" from smoking pot seems more severe and long lasting. Maybe its just me...but I'd rather deal with a drunk than a pot head. :-\
No one has said that pot is harmless, only that it is less harmful than other substances which are legal and readily available.
Love the SOMA ref, Brave New World is one of my favorite novels of all time.
I don't how someone could find the smell noxious. When I was a stoner (yes I'm a former stoner), I couldn't imagine anything more wonderful then the smell of pot. As for dealing with pot heads, at least they're not belligerent like drunks.
I think smells, like beauty, depend on whose eyes, ears, taste, nose, etc., are being used. I'm not even sure if I've even smelled pot but I've heard it's something like burnt hemp or rope. That's one thing I'm not going to worry about. If I don't like the smell, sound, etc., I can always go elsewhere.
Perhaps readers might get a laugh out of this. Many years ago I was in the Air Force and stationed in Europe. There was a briefing for general officers where they were showing photos (slides) of various beautification projects of bases in Germany where they had bunkers -- getting ready for the Russians to come through the Fulda Gap, I guess. That part's not really part of the story.
Suddenly, as they were looking at slides from a particular base where a really exceptional job had been done of beautifying the bunkers, the muffled sound of laughter was heard in the audience. They stopped the show, turned on the lights and the commander was very annoyed at the young lieutenant who couldn't stop laughing.
They asked him "Why are you laughing? Do you think this briefing's funny?"
"No, Sir," the lieutenant said. "Those are some of the best marijuana plants I've ever seen."
The story’s true but I won’t tell you what base it was. Needless to say, there was a very quick “removal†program. Of course, you can’t burn marijuana plants as anyone downwind will get high. I’m not sure how they disposed of it.
What happened to the lieutenant? He got a very good rating in his Officer Evaluation Report.
legalize it. tax it. profit from it. help the national economy.
If it is legalized, I'm sure the First Baptist Church will buy all of the licenses in an attempt to keep it out of Jacksonville.
Decriminalization of marijuana is occurring generally in liberal states, blue states, Obama states--whatever you want to call them. I like to refer to them as progressive.
When around people who are high, I don't fear they'll try to prove their masculinity and punch someone in the face like someone who's drunk off liquor may. Ever been to a peace rally? When there's been substances, have they tended to be alcohol or marijuana?
I think alcohol poses a much greater public threat. If pot smokers aren't harming anyone, I say leave them alone. The government should seriously consider marijuana a cash crop.
. . . give peace a chance . . .
Your mentioning "Blue" states reminded me of a book which metrojacksonville readers might like. It's called Empire and it was written by Orson Scott Card. The book's premise is that another civil war is coming -- not one between the races as has once been thought but between the "Blue" and the "Red" states. I apologize in advance for how this may sound, but one of the convenient things in the Pacific during World War II was that if the opponent's skin was yellow, it was fairly likely that he was the enemy. On the other hand, the Nisei regiment, the 442nd Infantry, formerly the 442nd Regimental Combat Team of the United States Army, was an Asian American unit composed of mostly Japanese Americans who fought in Europe during the Second World War. At the time, they were the most decorated unit in US Army history and they may still be -- they earned 21 Medals of Honor.
I am all for the legalization of Marijuana. The war on drugs is expensive and ineffective. It should taxed and regulated. I do think the use of marijuana in public should be restricted to "coffee houses", "smoke shops" whatever you want to call them. I'm not really for the idea of people walking down the street while smoking a fatty spliff.
Legalizing pot may also help keep it out of the hands of kids. I remember before I was 21 and still in college it was a lot easier to score a bag of weed than it was a 12 pack of beer. ;D
I would like to see you same people talking about the legalization of marijuana lay on a hospital bed getting ready for a procedure and half the staff is high on pot, oh, but wait maybe we can banned it from hospital emoployees and people operating unsafe equipment. Restrict some and allow others, legalize because the war on drugs is expensive and ineffective. Wow you guys have just solved all the worlds probelms. What a great country we live in.
To tell you the truth I would rather the doctor be high than drunk...
To tell you the truth I would rather he be neither!!!
That doesn't take much thought. How do you perceive someone drunk? slurring speech,odor of alcohol,red/glassy eyes.
How much different are the "Symptoms" of being high? If it isn't perceived is there a problem?
Do you ask your Doctor what Prescriptions they or another Doctor have prescribed them?
We all know non-smokers can sniff any scent out of our dirty air (and frequently do) maybe they can be "Door Sniffers" Both for Alcohol and Pot. Maybe Shands Hospital should start this first.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on July 21, 2009, 10:41:01 PM
I would like to see you same people talking about the legalization of marijuana lay on a hospital bed getting ready for a procedure and half the staff is high on pot, oh, but wait maybe we can banned it from hospital emoployees and people operating unsafe equipment. Restrict some and allow others, legalize because the war on drugs is expensive and ineffective. Wow you guys have just solved all the worlds probelms. What a great country we live in.
::) You do realize almost every job (accept for maybe bartender and ad man in the 1960's) does not allow you to be intoxicated at work.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on July 21, 2009, 10:41:01 PM
I would like to see you same people talking about the legalization of marijuana lay on a hospital bed getting ready for a procedure and half the staff is high on pot, oh, but wait maybe we can banned it from hospital emoployees and people operating unsafe equipment. Restrict some and allow others, legalize because the war on drugs is expensive and ineffective. Wow you guys have just solved all the worlds probelms. What a great country we live in.
Right now you have the same chance of the hospital staff showing up drunk, but they don't do it. Just because it is legalized does mean everyone in the world will start getting and staying stoned 24/7. Reasonable and responsible people will be able to sustain their life without getting high or drunk for that matter when the time isn’t right or if they will be putting their jobs or other lives at stake.
The thought that if it is legalized suddenly everyone will start showing up at their jobs high is ludicrous. It will be just like alcohol, some people will abuse it, but all in all everyone isn’t drunk because its there.
Thanks Shwaz and Ty. I was about to point out how fatuous that line of reasoning was. Maybe we should create a poll for this on metrojax just to see where people stand. Judging from the responses so far, it seems a majority might favor it.
That would be a good poll. I think that once California legalizes it for recreational use other states will follow suit.
Oakland, California, passes landmark marijuana tax (http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/22/california.pot.tax/index.html?iref=newssearch)
QuoteOAKLAND, California (CNN) -- Oakland's bid to become the first U.S. city to tax proceeds on medical marijuana passed Tuesday by a landslide vote.
About 80 percent of voters chose to impose the tax on Oakland's medical marijuana facilities, according to the Alameda County Registrar of Voters.
Some celebrated the news at Oaksterdam University by hand-rolling large marijuana cigarettes or stuffing cannabis into pipes. The school trains students for work in the medical marijuana industry.
"It is important because the city of Oakland is facing a massive deficit like many jurisdictions in California," said Steve DeAngelo, a leader of one of the city's cannabis clubs. "And we decided to step up to the plate and make a contribution to the city in a time of need."
DeAngelo, one of the people who led the effort to get the tax approved, said his business will now have to pay more than $350,000 from the new tax next year.
Oakland's City Council was also behind the move.
"Given that the medical cannabis dispensaries are something that was legalized in California, why not have revenue from it?" said councilwoman Rebecca Kaplan.
There was no formal opposition to the effort, but some drug fighters say the tax sends the wrong message.
"The taxation of a federally unlawful drug is just not something that the community should accept," said Paul Chabot of the Coalition for a Drug Free California. "With the state in dire straits in finances and the country looking for ways to pay down debt, looking at illegal drugs is the absolute wrong thing to do."
advertisement
The measure, passed in special mail-in election Tuesday, imposes a 1.8 percent gross receipts tax on the four licensed medical cannabis dispensaries in Oakland.
These facilities would have to pay about $18 in taxes for every 1,000 in marijuana sales.
So now that a city government will be reaping the benefit of taxing it, is it only a matter of time now before they do away with the whole "medical Marijuana" pretense completely?
Yeah, now that's it's passed, they'll "forget" the medical par... What was I saying?
So I'm for decriminalization of weed, but WAY not for prostitution. The reason being if the government legalizes pot they will control the crop and tax it at some wild rate which will still encourage bootleggers.
Prostitution is NOT a victimless crime, in fact most (and last I looked the number was around 97%) of the prostitutes themselves are life long victims of heinous child abuse, spouse abuse, addiction etc. The problem won't go away by making it legal. The way to help this is both a job for mental health and spiritual guidance.
OCKLAWAHA
Quotedo away with the whole "medical Marijuana" pretense completely
That's the idea. This legitimizes the business of selling weed. That's why DeAngelo lead the effort. Most business men would not want new or additional taxes on their business, but he knows this helps pave the way to expand his sales market.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 22, 2009, 02:04:13 PM
So I'm for decriminalization of weed, but WAY not for prostitution. The reason being if the government legalizes pot they will control the crop and tax it at some wild rate which will still encourage bootleggers.
Prostitution is NOT a victimless crime, in fact most (and last I looked the number was around 97%) of the prostitutes themselves are life long victims of heinous child abuse, spouse abuse, addiction etc. The problem won't go away by making it legal. The way to help this is both a job for mental health and spiritual guidance.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock I agree that a majority of prostitutes are victims... they're alos victims of violent "Johns", pimps, police and serial killers also STD's.
Ocklawaha -- I'm sure your point is quite valid, especially for anywhere prostitution is not legal. I don't know how things work in the parts of Nevada where it is legal but I really do not not think the ladies at the Bunny Ranch or whatever it's called fall into the category you have described. I've never been there, nor am I likely to go, but from what I've read and seen on the Internet and other locations, many young ladies (or if you prefer, women) like to work there and they have quite a few applying. For anyone who's interested, here's what wikipedia has to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada).
(http://stylemens.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/17/glenn_2.jpg)
Of course this brings up the ancient argument of which is worse, booze or pot. Pot has a few positives and so does drinking:
Drinking does not have to be in the mode of getting drunk, in fact most drinkers do so for the relaxation and nothing more.
Nobody on Pot has ever stood in the middle of the road and pissed all over themselves.
Alcohol is forever old, it can be kept forever and used as a disinfectant, wound cleanser or pain killer.
Pot is used as a pain killer, eye treatment, as well as treatment for mental health and dozens of other medical issues.
Alcohol comes in an endless variety of flavors or forms, and many drink it as a way to travel the global flavors.
Contrary to popular belief, Pot is used to assist addicts to more powerful drugs. It is not a foot stool to LSD, Speed or Heroin, but it CAN reduce the pains of withdrawl from those substances.
Alcohol effects everyone differently and sadly many become uncontrollable angry, aggressive or have a need to speed.
Pot, generally effects everyone as a "Soma for society", all pressures off, relaxant, the worst traffic fine a pothead must guard against is a ticket for going 3 miles per hour in the fast lane of I-95.
For Christians it should be noted that both are in the Bible:
Alcohol:
John 2:10 Tells us Jesus left the good wine until last, those among us that are Baptists or a similar faith have been told this is always "New Wine" aka: grape juice. The fact is, like it or not, the wine was indeed WINE as 1. It was the only way to preserve a drink 2. Timothy 3:3 warns us against becoming addicted to it (try fitting grape juice into either of these passages.
Marijuana:
Genesis 1:29 God gave us every herb bearing a seed and to us he says it is to be as meat. Kind of hard to see Pot as a sirloin but it is an herb bearing seed. The closest relation is your garden variety tomato plants and "yes Martha, tomato's DO produce low grade amounts of THC. Stoned on tomato leaves? It's completely possible go obtain lift off without a rocket.
Enjoy... hell it's almost 4:20!
OCKLAWAHA
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN171-MIRACLES.htm (http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/CN171-MIRACLES.htm). If so, then I would conclude that Jesus is not against the use of alcohol -- though He may be very against someone's getting drunk, especially if they harm others.
But they didn't run out of safe drinking water, they ran out of wine.
legal drugs: caffeine & alcohol
both in effects much more damaging to the body then weed.
the thing that will keep weed from being legal is they dont have a way like in alcohol to tell how much is in your system. Plus weed smoke can get others high around you(cant have that)
I dont have a problem with weed but like with alcohol I dont think alot of people would use it properly and would missuse and abuse it.
again, "more damaging to the body than weed" is simply irresponsible. how about "as damaging to the body" -- marijuana is not some sort of magic drug with no side effects -- and caging it in "less dangerous than tobacco" terms doesn't help that.
You are correct, it IS a DRUG plain and simple... It does not have to be smoked but how could you prevent that unless it came blended into the brownie mix right out of the box. It makes a really nice cup of tea, in fact the tea tastes like the air smells in Oklahoma, "When the wind comes right behind the rain..." That super sweet smell over the endless miles of wheat grass has a very distinct flavor. Most of the anti-drug CRAP that has been released over the years is so mixed with outright lies, as to make the arguments worthless.
OCKLAWAHA
Schwaz, how are prostitutes "victims" of police?
I imagine they could be, especially if an officer threatened to arrest one unless she did what he wanted.
If states start legalizing marijuana, wouldnt that cause a clash between federal laws and state laws?
I remember a few years ago reading about Federal D.E.A. agents shutting down "legal" medicinal marijuana shops in California.
To me it's not about what harm may come from a substance or activity. It's about respecting the ability of our fellow adults to decide for themselves what substances they ingest and what activities they engage in with other adults without violence, coercion or fraud and letting them bear the responsibility for the consequences.
I think the people who make the laws need to be better educated regarding their constituents' wishes. If we don't like what they do, we can vote them out of office. If enough of us realized that and found legislators who more closely reflected our wishes, perhaps many of the problems discussed in metrojacksonville might be solved.
I would love to know how many Marijuana haters out there are on a sedative or "Mild" anxiety drug...every time I rail against Pills ...nobody responds.
Maybe we should have a poll to see how many honest people admit to being on SOMA. I know for a fact several friends that were legally prescribed Xanax or something Milder were Wigging out when they couldn't take their "Drug"
How LEGAL is that? wake up people.. Pharma-monopolies are a bigger business than OIL!. They want you sedated and stupid. Marijuana "Stupidity" is something the non smokers joke about, but if you have a reasonable IQ, and can think for yourselves you don't have the same effects an Idiot has.Any normal person that has had dental work gets prescribed a Pain pill and either notices the Marshmello brain effect and hates it or likes it. You are who you are!
to be honest, as I have studied politics and hope to become apart of it one day to MAKE a differnce
Marijuana not being legalized atleast comes down to just that, politics.
Older generations in power, middle aged, and attempting up and coming age stay washed with "this is bad" and "god doesnt want you to do this" and "the right way is this way"
I look at it like overseas in the countrys we are attempting to help
You cant change the old they are set in there ways, inform and educate the youth and it will change eventually.
There are more babyboomers and older politicians in power with more sway that say NO. Once they are gone there is a chance but it will still take a while before I see a real chance for it to be legalized or have a fair running at it.
Then again Change is bad according to most, human nature is if it is differnt or something not used to, its bad. I dont really see it being legalized anytime soon.
Back in the '60's we were all convinced that when our generation grew up to be the judges and politicians, pot would be legalized. We didn't know the power of hypocrisy.
Quote from: Sportmotor on July 22, 2009, 04:36:45 PM
legal drugs: caffeine & alcohol
the thing that will keep weed from being legal is they dont have a way like in alcohol to tell how much is in your system. Plus weed smoke can get others high around you(cant have that)
Are you sure about that? They might not be able to test for â€" I guess the term would be quantity, but I know that marijuana can be detected in either urine or blood, now. Let me tell you a true story -- perhaps you'll get a laugh:
I was assigned to the Base Information Office on Nakhon Phanom RTAFB ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhon_Phanom_Royal_Thai_Navy_Base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhon_Phanom_Royal_Thai_Navy_Base)) and as part of my duties I helped set up a briefing for newcomers every so often.
The Office of Special Investigations (OSI) agent did part of the briefing and this is what he would usually say:
“All of us know that some of you smoke pot and you figure you’re safe because we have no way to test for it (remember this was about 1970 or so) right now. What you don’t realize is that some of the dealers here are not honest.
“They lace their marijuana with red rock heroin â€" and that will show up.
“I have a test kit in my office so if you want to know if your pot has been laced or not, just bring it down and we’ll check it for you.â€
Then he usually just stopped talking and looked over at me. You know what a “pregnant silence†is, I’m sure. It usually took a minute or so before someone would start laughing.
What some didn’t realize was that he was telling the truth. Dealers did lace their marijuana and sometimes the results were pretty serious.
Quote from: NotNow on July 22, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
Schwaz, how are prostitutes "victims" of police?
I'm not saying it's common place but I'm sure many prostitutes have been beaten raped an/ or robbed by police through out history.
Quote from: Shwaz on July 23, 2009, 03:05:48 PM
Quote from: NotNow on July 22, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
Schwaz, how are prostitutes "victims" of police?
I'm not saying it's common place but I'm sure many prostitutes have been beaten raped an/ or robbed by police through out history.
Not in Nevada and Rhode Island where it is legal.
Quote from: macbeth25 on July 22, 2009, 10:09:19 PM
I imagine they could be, especially if an officer threatened to arrest one unless she did what he wanted.
This says more about your own bias than it does about any realistic "problem".
Quote from: Shwaz on July 23, 2009, 03:05:48 PM
Quote from: NotNow on July 22, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
Schwaz, how are prostitutes "victims" of police?
I'm not saying it's common place but I'm sure many prostitutes have been beaten raped an/ or robbed by police through out history.
Really? Where did you read that? Try rewriting your statement but insert "black" or "mexicans" in where you wrote "police". Now, how does that sound to you? I'll bet I can find more reported rapes and beatings of prostitutes by black or latino men than you will ever find of police, does that make this statement correct or accurate? Or un-biased?
I think that most of you should talk to a few prostitutes before you get all giddy about legalizing prostitution. I forget the name of the organization of former prostitutes, Ock? Based on my life experience, I cannot support legalization of prostitution.
Although at this point I am not personally against legalizing pot and taxing the living snot out of it just like we do alcohol and cigarettes, I would bet that within ten years most Americans would want it outlawed again. Just my opinion. And for you younger folks that want to change the world, try to remember that 2 or 3 thousand years of societal rules are usually there for a reason. It is good to question, but good intentions almost always carry unintended consequences.
Quote from: NotNow on July 23, 2009, 03:49:27 PM
Quote from: macbeth25 on July 22, 2009, 10:09:19 PM
I imagine they could be, especially if an officer threatened to arrest one unless she did what he wanted.
This says more about your own bias than it does about any realistic "problem".
What bias? What possible reason have I given you that I might be biased one way or another? Do you really believe that no police officer, anywhere, at any time, has ever taken advantage of their position?
to claim prostitutes are victim of police is to claim:
1: all men want "job" from prostitute
2: all police are corrupt
3: prostitute never offer "job" in exchange of favor instead of cash
An old saying which may fit here is "People who live in glass houses should never cast stones." I will try not to respond to any further comments along the lines you have begun. It is simply not worth the trouble to bother with them or with you. Bye.
Quotethe thing that will keep weed from being legal is they dont have a way like in alcohol to tell how much is in your system
That won't keep it from being legalized, but once it is a great deal of money will be spent developing a technology that will. I think there is already a device similar to a breathalyzer that can measure cannabinoids in a person's breath. Don't quote me on that, I just remember reading something once.
QuoteIf states start legalizing marijuana, wouldn't that cause a clash between federal laws and state laws?
Yes it will. I think once this happens there will be a challenge of the laws at the Federal level and the marijuana prohibition laws will change and I think that a majority will support it.
QuoteTo me it's not about what harm may come from a substance or activity. It's about respecting the ability of our fellow adults to decide for themselves what substances they ingest and what activities they engage in with other adults without violence, coercion or fraud and letting them bear the responsibility for the consequences.
I wouldn't have expected any other comment coming from a libertarian.
I didn't realize prostitution is legal in Rhode Island.
Quote from: macbeth25 on July 23, 2009, 04:19:44 PM
Quote from: NotNow on July 23, 2009, 03:49:27 PM
Quote from: macbeth25 on July 22, 2009, 10:09:19 PM
I imagine they could be, especially if an officer threatened to arrest one unless she did what he wanted.
This says more about your own bias than it does about any realistic "problem".
What bias? What possible reason have I given you that I might be biased one way or another? Do you really believe that no police officer, anywhere, at any time, has ever taken advantage of their position?
Exactly. What bias do I have? Claiming a cop has never abused a prostitute is outlandish... are you saying their has never been corrupt police officer though out any period of time? Not a one has taken money from some teens after busting up their dice game? How about a little cash just to look the other way. Or maybe even beat a man down with a group of his colleagues after a traffic stop.
Quote from: fatcat on July 23, 2009, 05:04:54 PM
to claim prostitutes are victim of police is to claim:
1: all men want "job" from prostitute
2: all police are corrupt
3: prostitute never offer "job" in exchange of favor instead of cash
Even more outlandish :D
McB, (and Schwaz) It is not my intention to insult you. Although I take offense to your statement. You are classifying an entire (non-criminal) group of people without evidence. Review your list of people that "hurt" prostitutes:
1. violent johns
2. pimps
3. POLICE
4. serial killers
5. STD's (not really a person, but listed)
Now, if you really think that the Police belong on that list of criminals, then I think that you are prejudiced against the Police. See the definition below:
Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: \ˈpre-jə-dəs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment â€" more at judicial
Date: 13th century
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights ; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
synonyms see predilection
I am not trying to insult you. In fact, I am insulted that you would include me in your list. Has any Police Officer ever done this crime? I don't know, maybe...what group would you pick that has not done this....maybe, possibly, in all of history? The clergy? Politicians? Computer salesmen? Bloggers? Do you see where your logic here might be wrong?
Not now... I believe you are naïve if you don't think there is enough record of corrupt police abusing prostitutes. You could even be called prejudice for saying police are incapable of these crimes... Like if I said "no. He couldn't have stolen your car... He's white.
What I am saying is that you are characterizing an entire group of people as criminal. I understand pimps and serial killers, as they are criminal classifications in themselves, but to include Police as a profession on your list of who hurts prostitutes is simply wrong. The proper comparison is (as I said before) to replace the word "police" with "african-american" or "latino". While I can produce a number of reports dated 2009 from Jacksonville that would verify that prostitutes have been raped or beaten by individuals of these racial groups, to say that these racial groups "hurt" prostitutes would be just wrong. And biased. And prejudiced. While I am sure that some Officer may have committed such a crime somewhere at some time in the past, to say "Police" are a group that hurt prostitutes is just as inaccurate and hurtful. and biased. And prejudiced. I am sure that you didn't mean to offend, but again, look at what you are saying. You are saying that I beat and rape prostitutes. I am not saying that Police Officers are incapable of committing such a crime, any human being is. i am saying that to characterize a profession is wrong. It's like saying all Judges take bribes, or all casino owners are organized crime.
Who are the thieves in my neighborhood?
1. professional thieves
2. unlicensed contractors who take old folks down payments and run.
3. Garbage collectors
What is wrong with the above list? Has a garbage collector ever stolen anything? Probably. Does that make the list valid? No.
Again, I do not mean to be argumentative or offend anyone, but I believe that my point is valid.
Im with you on this one NotNow.
Notnow police deal with prostitutes daily on the beats they patrol. As a group they're trusted to up hold the law but unfortunately many have abused this power and because of that made my all important list of danger to prostitutes.
Again, no evidence of such other than hearsay or TV shows. Your opinion is yours to have, but see my comparison above about garbage collectors. I think it applies. I'll leave it be.
I understand you're point... Just disagree. Again i'm not saying all police are hooker beaters just like all teachers aren't child molesters... but the fact remains they're caught with students week in and week out.
Quote from: Shwaz on July 23, 2009, 07:57:26 PM
I understand you're point... Just disagree. Again i'm not saying all police are hooker beaters just like all teachers aren't child molesters... but the fact remains they're caught with students week in and week out.
Which bring me to a question...
WHERE WERE THESE TEACHERS WHEN I WAS IN HIGHSCHOOL? :'(
but seriously notnow has a vaild point have to agree with him on it.
And I have wondered the same thing about those teachers!
depending on how the teacher looked my parents wouldnt have pressed charges they woulda just givin me a highfive Imsure
then would have expected me to pass that class lol
http://www.hookersforjesus.net/
ORGANIZATION
http://bible-christian.org/prostitute.html
ORGANIZATION
http://www.neilrogers.com/news/articles/2006072312.html
ARTICLE RESOURCE
http://www.walnet.org/csis/news/canada_97/faith-9705.html
ARTICLE RESOURCE
http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=04e506f5610496ab2f87
VIDEO
http://www.streets.org/
MENS MINISTRY
http://www.yourcross.org/prostitution.htm
MINISTRY
http://www.glcc.org/glcc/files/conferences/ICCP%20flyer%202008.pdf
CONFERENCE ON PROSTITUTION
Anyone needs more tools just send me a PM, this is a real and deadly problem at all levels of our society.
OCKLAWAHA
From Wikipedia: In Rhode Island the act of prostitution (engaging in sexual activity in exchange for money) is legal because there is no specific statute that defines it and makes it illegal. However, most activities associated with prostitution are outlawed. Operating a brothel is illegal (Chapter 11-34-5). Street prostitution is also illegal: Loitering for Indecent Purposes (Chapter 11-34-8) and Soliciting from Motor Vehicles for Indecent Purposes (Chapter 11-34-9).[1][2][3][4] Otherwise, prostitution is not regulated by the state of Rhode Island.
QuoteStreet prostitution is also illegal: Loitering for Indecent Purposes (Chapter 11-34-8) and Soliciting from Motor Vehicles for Indecent Purposes (Chapter 11-34-9).[1][2][3][4]
I think that if a State or the Fed gov every legalized prostitution, they should still have these laws. Brothels should be allowed but pimps should be punished severely. Pimps are a large problem with the business of prostitution because of their predatory nature.
Obviously a portion of taxes should be set aside to help prevent women from ever being in the position to prostitute themselves. I don't think that laws regarding prostitution should be morally based, I think we should treat it as a social and public health issue.
Isn't it possible that at least some of the women working at legitimate brothels might look upon it as a job rather than something they "have" to do? You might say they provide a service, the same as many others. Assuming all are forced into the business may be incorrect. Of course the accounts may have been prejudiced but I remember seeing what I'll call news shows concerning places like the Bunny Ranch (I keep referring to this and hope that's its correct name) where it appears they operate like a regular business and ladies apply for positions there. Does anyone else remember seeing those?
Medical Marijuana Industry in California
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124829403893673335.html
QuoteJULY 23, 2009 With 'Med Pot' Raids Halted, Selling Grass Grows Greener
By JUSTIN SCHECK and STU WOO
Brian L. Frank for The Wall Street Journal
LAKE FOREST, Calif. -- Sellers of marijuana as a medicine here don't fret about raids any more. They've stopped stressing over where to hide their stash or how to move it unseen.
Now their concerns involve the state Board of Equalization, which collects sales tax and requires a retailer ID number. Or city planning offices, which insist that staircases comply with the Americans With Disabilities Act. Then there is marketing strategy, which can mean paying to be a "featured dispensary" on a Web site for pot smokers.
After years in the shadows, medical marijuana in California is aspiring to crack the commercial mainstream.
"I want to do everything I can to run this as a legitimate business," says Jan Werner, 55 years old, who invested in a pot store in a shopping mall after 36 years as a car salesman.
State voters decreed back in 1996 that Californians had a right to use marijuana for any illness -- from cancer to anorexia to any other condition it might help. But supplying "med pot" remained risky. The ballot measure didn't specify who could sell it or how. The state provided few guidelines, leaving local governments to impose a patchwork of restrictions. Above all, because pot possession remained illegal under U.S. law, sellers had to worry about federal raids.
But in February, the Justice Department said it would adhere to President Barack Obama's campaign statement that federal agents no longer would target med-pot dealers who comply with state law. Since then, vendors who had kept a low profile have begun to expand, and entrepreneurs who had avoided cannabis have begun to invest.
Some now are using traditional business practices like political lobbying and supply-chain consolidation. Others are seeking capital or offering investment banking for pot purveyors. In Oakland, a school offers courses such as "Cannabusiness 102" and calls itself Oaksterdam University, after the pot-friendly Dutch city. As shops proliferate, there are even signs the nascent industry could be heading for another familiar business phenomenon: the bubble.
Medical use of pot now is legal in 13 states. It is also facing some resistance. New Hampshire's Democratic governor, John Lynch, vetoed a med-pot bill this month, citing inadequate safeguards. Los Angeles, which passed a moratorium on new dispensaries in 2007, is trying to close a loophole that has led to an explosion of new ones.
John Lovell, a lobbyist for the California Peace Officers' Association, objects to "the notion that marijuana is safe and can be used for any and all purposes to heal any and all ailments," adding: "There are 34 different elements in marijuana smoke that are shared with tobacco." He and others also complain about the ease with which patients can get pot recommendations from certain doctors.
Still, at a time of deep recession, the med-pot business is attracting career switchers. Mr. Werner was the sales manager of a Chrysler dealership, and dismayed with the collapse of car sales. He had a doctor's recommendation to smoke pot, for pain from a spinal condition. One day a car-dealer friend, Bill Shofner, who also had a pot recommendation (for migraines), suggested: Why not become pot vendors?
The mellowing of federal regulations for selling medical marijuana has created a crop of pot entrepreneurs with dreams of taking their homegrown businesses into the stock market. Justin Scheck and Stu Woo report from California.
Each invested $40,000. Following state guidelines, they set up as a nonprofit, called Lake Forest Community Collective, from which they would draw salaries.
It is on the second floor of a strip mall in the Los Angeles suburb of Lake Forest that also houses Mexican restaurants and a Peet's Coffee shop. A customer first encounters a brightly lit front room with a security window and an Obama poster, then is buzzed into a vestibule with an ATM. Beyond that is a spotless room with glass cases displaying pot in pill bottles.
Scribbled on a board are prices, from $10 to $25 a gram, for different strains: Sour Diesel, Purple Urkel, Bubba Hash. Sour Diesel is popular, says a volunteer, and "really potent."
This still is a far cry from, say, Amsterdam, where pot remains illegal but authorities are so tolerant that pot is available in coffeehouses.
In California, pot sales, legal and illegal, are estimated to total $14 billion a year. Medical marijuana makes up maybe an eighth of that, says Dale Gieringer, director of the state's chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. He estimates the state has three million pot smokers, including 350,000 with doctors' recommendations.
The state taxes med-pot sales, and on Tuesday, the city of Oakland added its own special tax.
In Lake Forest, Messrs. Werner and Shofner pay about $4,000 for a pound of marijuana, retailing it for about $6,000. They don't break even yet, the two say.
The business is a little like selling cars in one way, Mr. Shofner says: The longer they hold their stock, the less it is worth. Aging marijuana loses both potency and weight.
Med-pot sellers say they generally avoid marijuana from Mexican cartels; the risks are higher and the quality is lower. Messrs. Werner and Shofner say they at first bought largely from far-northern California, where clandestine growers also supply the underground market.
For reasons of cost and consistency, they have been taking fuller control of the supply chain. A few months ago they gave money to members of their collective for grow lamps and other equipment, and now they get much of their supply from them. "It's like McDonald's" making deals with potato farmers, Mr. Werner says.
Some vendors are toying with another familiar business model: vertical integration. In pot, that means growing as well as dealing. This was a risky approach when a federal raid could cost an owner his pot, his computers and maybe even his liberty. Now, one Los Angeles-area med-pot vendor says he has acquired land in Northern California and begun to grow his own.
Mr. Werner and his partner recently decided to expand. They signed leases for two new outlets.
They also have lost their wariness of advertising. The proliferation of dealers makes promotion essential. The two now pay several hundred dollars a month for ads on Web sites like Weedmaps.com, which helps people find medical pot.
Justin Hartfield, who started Weedmaps, says it has grown quickly to about $20,000 in monthly revenue, half from ads.
The rest comes from referring people to doctors who recommend pot. Mr. Hartfield bills the doctors $20 for each patient he sends them. The American Medical Association ethics code says payment for referrals is unethical. Mr. Hartfield says the doctors are keenly aware of the ethics issue and consider their payments not to be fees for referral but "advertising fees that change every month."
Shane Stuart, 23, says he used to buy weed from street dealers but in February saw an online ad for a pot-friendly doctor. He realized then, he says, that medical marijuana was becoming more mainstream and having a pot ID card wouldn't hurt him with employers. He came away from a $200 doctor visit with a note recommending pot for pain from a hyperextended knee.
Mr. Hartfield, the Weedmaps impresario, has a doctor's recommendation for marijuana "to ease my anxiety and help with my insomnia." Mr. Hartfield says the med-pot system is really just a way of legalizing marijuana for anyone who wants to smoke. He says his anxiety/insomnia isn't really serious enough to require treatment. "I'm fine. I don't really have it," he says. "The medical system is a total farce. I'm an example of that. It just needs to be legal."
Med-pot advocates say marijuana can ease chronic pain, spur appetite in anorexics or chemotherapy patients, and relieve eyeball pressure in glaucoma patients. The law voters approved in 1996 listed several conditions that might be helped but said so long as a doctor recommended pot, all "seriously ill Californians" had a right to it for "any...illness for which marijuana provides relief."
David Allen, a former Mississippi heart surgeon, last month opened a general practice in Sacramento and listed himself on a Web site as a pot-friendly doctor. Marijuana, says Dr. Allen, 57, "helps the common conditions that affect every human being -- for instance, anxiety, depression, insomnia and anorexia" -- and can relieve certain arthritis symptoms and muscle-spasm conditions.
Still, he says, many of his patients are people who already used pot but just wanted a doctor's recommendation to avoid legal trouble. "If I was to deny them, I would put them at more risk, and I'd be hurting society by doing this as well," he says. "Cannabis is safer than aspirin."
Dr. Allen smokes pot for insomnia, anxiety and stress. He says he quit heart surgery because what he does now is more lucrative. He says he doesn't pay for referrals, a practice he considers unethical.
As the business matures, ancillary ventures are springing up. In Oakland, OD Media manages advertising and branding for about a dozen pot clients. An Oakland lawyer, James Anthony, and three partners have started a firm called Harborside Management Associates to give dealers business advice. A pot activist named Richard Cowan has opened what he envisions as an investment bank for pot-related businesses, called General Marijuana.
Mr. Cowan is also chief financial officer of Cannabis Science Inc., which is trying to market a pot lozenge for nonsmokers. It was founded by Steve Kubby, a longtime medical-marijuana advocate who a decade ago was acquitted of a pot-growing charge but briefly jailed for having illegal mushrooms in his home. Mr. Kubby says there is "no more alternative culture" at the company, which went public in March and has hired a former pharmaceutical-industry scientist to try to win Food and Drug Administration approval for the lozenge. Mr. Kubby left as CEO this month in a dispute with the board.
Part of the opposition medical marijuana continues to face is rooted in concern that unsavory characters from the illegal-drugs business will get involved. The city attorney of Lake Forest, where Messrs. Werner and Shofner have their store, recently sent a letter to the landlords of pot dispensaries asking them to evict tenants. Mr. Shofner says he reached a settlement with his landlord to stay.
To defend their interests, some pot proprietors are hiring lobbyists. Messrs. Shofner and Werner pay consulting fees to Ryan Michaels, a political organizer with an expertise in med-pot compliance issues.
There are signs medical pot's increasing business legitimacy is crowding the market. A 20-mile stretch of Ventura Boulevard in the San Fernando Valley now has close to 100 places to buy. "So many dispensaries have come along, the prices are dropping," says one operator, Calvin Frye. Two years ago, his least expensive pot was about $60 for an eighth of an ounce. Now it is $45.
Across the country, a med-pot bill is working its way through New York's state legislature. If it makes it, entrepreneurs are getting ready.
Larry Lodi, a 49-year-old Little League umpire from Long Island, spent two days at Oaksterdam University in May, learning the fine points of cultivation and distribution. Mr. Lodi envisions a business that would link the growers and the sellers of medical marijuana. "I want to be the middleman," he says.
From the article comes this quote from a doctor:
QuoteCannabis is safer than aspirin.
This doctor prescribes pot so he has a vested interest in promoting it's safety, but it's quite a statement coming from a doctor.
I like this one... :D
QuoteMr. Hartfield, the Weedmaps impresario, has a doctor's recommendation for marijuana "to ease my anxiety and help with my insomnia." Mr. Hartfield says the med-pot system is really just a way of legalizing marijuana for anyone who wants to smoke. He says his anxiety/insomnia isn't really serious enough to require treatment. "I'm fine. I don't really have it," he says. "The medical system is a total farce. I'm an example of that. It just needs to be legal."
Aspirin is a powerful drug that would not be approved by the FDA for over-the-counter use if it had been discovered/invented in the past thirty years. My doctor jumped all over me for taking a baby aspirin per day without checking with him first. "You would bleed to death in an auto accident before they could save you", he shouted at me.
At least pot wouldn't make you bleed to death. Stupid and fat, yes.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 24, 2009, 04:45:14 PM
I like this one... :D
QuoteMr. Hartfield, the Weedmaps impresario, has a doctor's recommendation for marijuana "to ease my anxiety and help with my insomnia." Mr. Hartfield says the med-pot system is really just a way of legalizing marijuana for anyone who wants to smoke. He says his anxiety/insomnia isn't really serious enough to require treatment. "I'm fine. I don't really have it," he says. "The medical system is a total farce. I'm an example of that. It just needs to be legal."
ROFL There goes his perscription!
Well I have to admit I did not get around to reading all 5 pages of the replies, so if I repeat what someone else has said I apologize.
Let me just start by saying I'm for legalizing marijuana and prostitution. I'm for these things because both of them will be safer if they were legal. It would also be easier to keep our children from being able to buy a hooker or a bag of pot. Right now the people that sell this stuff have no qualms about selling it to our kids. If prostitution is legalized, prostitutes will be able to work in a building instead of the streets, get medical treatment (including regular testing for STDs), and be safer all around. People will buy hookers whether or not it is legal, wouldn't you rather the prostitutes were in a building your child would most likely not be able to get into? Or would you rather the hookers be on the street, trying to sell themselves your kid? If marijuana was legalized, less and less people would bother to grow their own (the same way most people stopped making moonshine when they could just go down to the store again and buy it). Also there would be an age limit just like there is an age limit on alcohol.
I also know quite a few people who say they would rather smoke pot but they drink alcohol instead because its legal. That suggests to me that if marijuana was legalized some people would drink a lot less (which would lower crime). Not to mention how much the crime rate would go down if the cops weren't arresting so many people just because of weed or prostitution. Just imagine if the cops had to start paying attention to real criminals!
I might have frogotten something but I think that's enough for now...just remember that people are doing these things anyway. If you want to protect our children then we should take these things off the street. That's my personal opinion anyway 8)
Gwefr, all good observations, but do you really think that all prostitution would "go indoors"? Almost all street prostitutes are drug addicts who can't manage their lives now. The straight "massage" prostitutes work via call or big hotels now. The street girls will not submit or pay for medical service or housing for that matter. They get by on skin now. the street trade would not change at all except maybe some of the demand would dry up.
Believe me, the cops do pay attention to real criminals. Often it is a prostitute who set up a robbery, or a crack dealer wannabe who jacks a car from a customer. Legalizing pot (which I am not against, I am against decriminalization) would not change this either. These are societal problems which are tougher nuts to crack than just "legalizing" something. And of course, all of this is just my opinion which counts no more than yours anyway.
I don't know anything about the process of turning Marijuana plants into something you can smoke but perhaps someone can verify this. I was told that legalizing Marijuana would cause problems because it was much harder to make tobacco into cigarettes. The person telling me this said they had been involved in the tobacco industry and there were many less steps in making Marijuana smokeable (if that's even a word). He was saying that having legal Marijuana cigarettes and taxing them like you do cigarettes would not work. I thought legalizing it and then taxing the products would be the same as tobacco products. Does anyone know anything about this process?
Where in the world did this thread come from? Are y'all crazy!?
Heights Unknown
Heights Unknown: Whether or not I am or the others who have responded to this thread are crazy is a matter for a psychiatrist. For the purpose of this thread, it doesn't matter. The question is a legitimate one. Our nation, states, counties and possibly smaller communities make money by allowing the legal sale of tobacco and alcohol products, regulating their production and quality and then collecting taxes on those sales.
Both alcohol and tobacco have been proven to be harmful to human beings and have been known to kill. Yet the ingredients are legally grown and the end products manufactured and sold. The resulting tax money helps the taxing body run its business. Some, perhaps many, people like to smoke Marijuana or use it in its various forms. If produced incorrectly, I’m sure Marijuana could be even more dangerous.
Legalizing its growth, manufacture and sale would facilitate regulation and provide much needed tax revenue, the same as legalizing the sale of alcohol and tobacco has done. Legalizing its growth and use would also eliminate some of the reason to arrest and incarcerate people for using what may be another variant of already accepted and legal alcohol and tobacco use. This would save both money and time. The additional revenue resulting from the taxing of its legal sale may lessen many financial problems faced by taxing entities.
This seems a valid solution to a multitude of problems involving policing, incarceration, health and tax revenues, just to name a few. Have you suggestions concerning how to improve the present situation? How is it different from the legalization of alcohol following prohibition?
Then if we legalize marijuana and prostitution, why not legalize crack cocaine, heroin, prescription drugs of all kinds (put them "over the counter" for anyone to use and abuse), methadone, metheamphetamines, and any other drugs that are now illegal. And oh, legalize other crimes like murder, adultery, etc.
I am not trying to be sarcastic, but usually along with drug use/abuse comes prostitution, and so with some other crimes as well, they go hand in hand, so you will probably be looking at an even more "out of control" society if you legalize marijuana and prostitution.
Didn't mean to belittle anyone and I apologize for the way I sounded, but it was a shock that someone would even think or consider legalizing marijuana and prostitution; and again, not to be sarcastic or "smart mouthed" as my Grandma used to say, but if you legalize those two you just as well legalize everything else that's illegal and is a crime.
Heights Unknown
QuoteI am not trying to be sarcastic, but usually along with drug use/abuse comes prostitution, and so with some other crimes as well, they go hand in hand, so you will probably be looking at an even more "out of control" society if you legalize marijuana and prostitution.
Where's your data. This is simply not true. Look at those countries where these things are legal and tell me they are out of control. Is CA out of control with the more or less decriminalization that has occurred? Is NV out of control with the legal prostitution or the gambling? Most people who smoke marijuana would not be criminals if it was legalized. They would be doing the same thing they were before but now they wouldn't be doing something that is illegal. People who commit crimes related to drugs are typically doing hard drugs and no one is arguing for their legalization.
Quoteif you legalize those two you just as well legalize everything else that's illegal and is a crime
WTF? Where's your logical, rational argument for this. Most of the posts on this forum for and against these issues have argued their point cogently (see Ock's pt's against legal prossies). Your comments sound like the same irrational responses I hear when gay marriage comes up (another hot button issue for people).
Very Well Put.
so, how do you feel about gay marriage?
. . . and I was just joking. Do not answer the question, I'm afraid it will start a new string of irrational thought.
Quote from: Dog Walker on July 23, 2009, 03:12:21 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on July 23, 2009, 03:05:48 PM
Quote from: NotNow on July 22, 2009, 09:25:38 PM
Schwaz, how are prostitutes "victims" of police?
I'm not saying it's common place but I'm sure many prostitutes have been beaten raped an/ or robbed by police through out history.
Not in Nevada and Rhode Island where it is legal.
Man this is rich! Did you know that sex between a man and a woman has been legal in China for century's? Duh? Legal sex NEVER even slowed down the Japanese Army who came to visit the women of Nanking. We know at least 200,000 were raped, tortured, impaled, and butchered. It's pretty easy math really, cars are legal but that doesn't stop speeders. Banking is legal but that doesn't stop robbers. Sex is legal and that doesn't stop rapist and sexual predators. If prostitution is legal it will just make it that much easier for criminals to access a target.
The number of prostitutes abused sexually as children is nearly 99%, for some it has been the only "love" they have ever experienced. These women ARE victims, even if they don't know it and are legally out selling their bodies. They are programed to perform and without some serious clinical intervention, most will self destruct. As they age and fall from youthfull beauty they are abandoned again. No matter how "cool" they were with the sex for hire, the same men who once patronized them would now support having them removed from the street. This is a social disease and it is rooted in disfunctional families all around the world. OCKLAWAHA
What are your sources for this information? I haven't checked into this yet in the detail you seem to have employed, but do you nave any real information or statistics to prove your points from the area of Nevada, for example, which does have legalized prostitution? What about from countries where prostitution is legal -- though I'm afraid some of them might not take as good care of their ladies as I think legal brothels do here. Even the tone of your posts -- very dark, bold faced type -- indicates to me that you are shouting and that is the mark of someone who is simply against -- or for -- something and hopes sheer volume will make his point.
macb,
"The Rape of Nanking" by the occupying Japanese is a well documented event from WW2. I don't want to speak for Ock but I know that he has had a lot of exposure to the condition of working girls and has become involved in trying to help them. My experiences agree with Ock's assessment. I am talking about "street prostitutes" here. I have no experience with the Nevada brothels but I have to believe that the same psychological factors that drive girls to such behaviour still applies.
Nope, I think that you are off base on every point except the internet. I would imagine that those who have some kind of offbeat fetish now find it easier to hook up with others of the same ilk. Internet hookers are still placing themselves in great danger and I believe that the pathology that Ock describes exists in all of these girls (and the men too). While I have only had exposure to "street Prostitutes", both men and women, I have yet to meet one who wasn't just a sad case of mental problems. Most are drug addicted, which in my non-expert opinion is, like prostitution itself, a symptom of their problems. A symptom that just adds serious and deadly complications to their life. I would agree that jail time does nothing for these people and they will re offend as soon as they get out, but jail does protect the citizens who must coexist with those that choose this lifestyle. Beatings? In over twenty years I have never seen a prostitute beaten by an Officer. I think most LEO's feel like I do and while often disgusted, they are just sad cases. I have seen many beaten by customers or as a result of attempting to steal from customers. A couple of male prostitutes over the years were beaten as a result of a customers not realizing they were not women until well into the "transaction". Any claims of Police rape of prostitutes and the other outlandish allegations of Police involvement beyond an occasional individual are false. Once you are exposed to these girls living conditions and personal habits, and conversed with them at any level beyond "how much", you will find that there is a natural revulsion to any contact beyond putting on cuffs or getting them to shelter. As for all of your other points, I think they are conjecture not based in any factual experience or study. But I claim no special expertise in such things. I have never been a vice Officer and my contact has been limited to patrol street contact. The participants have seemed interchangeable in different states and cities that I have worked. Again, I have no contact with Nevada style bordello's, but I would suspect that the same pathology leads the girls to such behavior. Ock is much more knowledgeable about the personal lives of these girls, and has had a much more varied and personal experience through (I think, correct me if wrong, Ock) friends of his who fell into this lifestyle.
I have a generally libertarian view, and really don't care if most want to legalize MJ. (As long as we tax the snot out of it.) And my political beliefs compel me to say the same about prostitution, but my heart says that this is wrong and these girls (and men) should be protected somehow. Even if from themselves. In this way I think that Ock and I have arrived at the same place in that this is a mental condition that must be dealt with. I would defer to those trained in psychology beyond that.
The subject of homosexuality sometimes come up in threads. I, personally, don't agree with it and do not ever plan to be involved with it but that shouldn't matter to anyone --at least I hope I don't start some big hullabaloo (I'm afraid to check to see if I've spelled that right) about whether it's right or wrong. I personally don't care what others do as long as they leave me out of it. Enough said about that. My point is that some years ago I worked for a major telephone company and, while they did not support -- I think it was called "Gay Pride week" or something -- they did allow employees to have programs relating to that on their breaks and/or lunch times. I was a customer service rep and took calls from customers. Some of them, very emphatically, said that AIDS and HIV were plagues sent by God to punish those who were gay. I did some checking in various places and found that a heterosexual who was promiscuous was far more likely to get a STD than a "gay" couple who were faithful to each other.
It's a simple progression:
Legal or illegal, prostitution will not be eliminated, ever, anywhere.
Much of the damage to those acting as sex workers is due to their activities being illegal.
Legalizing and regulating the activity can reduce the harm and problems associated with it.
If we can't eliminate it, we should at least reduce the harm.
macb,
For the facts on HIV/Aids transmission and stats:
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/transmission.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#exposure
I think it is obvious that behaviors such as prostitution greatly increase one's chances of contracting STD's including HIV/Aid's.
StephenDare!,
To be honest, in my experience the male customers could come from all walks of life and income. Most seemed to be married guys who either had fallen into the drug/slum life or just came to the media advertised area where easy and affordable sex was found. Commonly, the men come early before work, on a lunch hour, or less often in the evening hours. There were local customers and maybe the fact that my attention was more easily drawn to girls with a car stopped on the street instead of person to person contact skewed my observations, but that was the way I saw it.
When speaking of internet prostitutes I am talking about the "Craigslist" type. There is no screening that I know of. I assume the girls request to meet in a public place until they are comfortable, but I am not sure how it works. If there are sites that "screen" the customers somehow then I would assume that the dangers are reduced in that there is some kind of "team" or "lookout" who knows where the girl is and who (somewhat) she is with. Again, I have never worked vice, so my contact with these girls is limited to the street variety.
I'm sorry, I thought you meant the customers. I think a small percentage of them start as thrillseekers. Many start as dancers for the lure of money, and the lifestyle leads down a predictable road, so you could say poor adds to the list. (This is where I usually rant about the "innocent" topless bars.) It appears that the young men who are gay find that their sexual orientation can lead them to what appears to be easy money, but then the same traps await them. Most of the girls who wind up on the street are there because of a combination of drug addiction and a boyfriend/pimp/creep who controls their lives, so that fits as well. You learn to try to not engage these girls in personal conversation, as their stories are just universally awful. Like most people that Officers engage, ten minutes of talk on the way to the PTDF won't make up for fifteen or sixteen years of bad parents, bad relationships, and bad choices.
Again, I don't know that I would blame an economic or relationship so much as it appears that they fall into a mental state of "this is all I am." It is a very difficult subject that needs attention. But there are many such subjects.
Just to add my penny's worth -- You can find articles on the Internet both for and against prostitution and the places in some sections of Nevada. I'm sure you can find support for whatever stand you might like to take.
I think the girls would be safer working in a place like the Chicken Ranch with people looking at potential customers and security available, not to mention medical checkups and treatment if necessary than either being out on the street or working through Craig’s list or some other Internet program.
Painting all the women involved in this life as having mental problems, being drug addicts or some other horrible thing is, to me, the same as saying that all police officers are crooks and beat people for fun. It's just as ridiculous.
Can't you see the possibility that for some of these ladies working in places like The Chicken Ranch, this kind of job represents good pay and benefits and that's why they do it. They're providing a service and getting well paid.
My wife's father was a deputy sheriff and I literally trusted him with my life and those of my wife and children. So don't dare tell me I'm against police.
As far as "seeing" an officer beat anyone or take advantage of his/her position -- do you really think, if one did, he/she would welcome an audience, especially another LEO? I'm certain we can find statistics which show that at least a minuscule number of police officers throughout the world fit this description.
Again, I claim no experience in Nevada style bordello's, and my thoughts on the "mental" side of prostitution are just my opinion. I have no medical or psychological training beyond the usual college courses and the law enforcement training that I have received over the years. I base my opinion on the aforementioned training and a couple of decades of street patrol experience in "urban" neighborhoods. There may very well be some very well adjusted, professional prostitutes. I just haven't met them yet.
I don't believe that you are against the Police just because you disagree with me. If that was the case then everyone I know would be "against the Police." Your opinion is just as valid as mine, more so if you have psychological training and have studied this lifestyle.
I am painfully aware that Officers have violated the trust placed in them in the past. But most people base their frame of reference of the "Police" on what they see on TV, which is a gross misrepresentation. Law Enforcement is a complicated business, but the rules are pretty black and white. In reality, you won't last long in the profession if you are raping prostitutes, or beating people, or mistreating a class of people. You can't hide things like that for long and the vast majority of Officers won't stand for it, because it makes our job much, much harder. My personal experience is limited to just a few departments, but JSO is a well regulated and professional department IMHO. Do Officers screw up and even violate laws? Yes and it is dealt with as well as any organization can deal with such things. New Officers learn quick where the lines are and that this is at least a twenty year career. You won't make it with personal agendas or animosities.
Think about your coworkers. Does it become obvious within a few months who is honest? Who you can trust? Who does a good job and who is just there for the money? i won't bore you with details but we look at prospective employees long and hard, under all kinds of conditions before they are let loose. It ain't perfect but it is a good system. The characters you see on TV are just that, fictional TV characters providing entertainment only.
I just came across this material and I have no idea how accurate it is, but it sure makes interesting reading if anyone would like to learn more about the Chicken Ranch- at least from one writer's point of view: http://www.textfiles.com/sex/crfaq.txt (http://www.textfiles.com/sex/crfaq.txt). One of the reasons I keep referring to that place is that I've watched shows on Dish and other places regarding it -- not only on the "sex" channels but on news or similar programs. I've never been there, nor is it likely I'll ever go.
Some people insist that veterans are heroes because we risked our lives to keep the United States free. For most of us, risking our lives was a possibility, but, unless we were actively engaged against an enemy or in a position where attack was possible, even probable, it was just a job. You wore a uniform and saluted and had to do KP or some other detail but that was part of the job. I did it for 23 years and many have done it far longer than that.
NotNow, there is no need for you to so actively defend police officers. The actions of a very few has no effect on the respect I have for LEO's in general. Any person who puts his/her life on the line every time he/she goes to work is worthy of respect.
As I said, my wife's father was a very good deputy sheriff and well respected among his peers and by the courts in his area. I knew him for quite a few years before he passed away. To me, every law enforcement officer is a real hero and deserving of respect.
To say that none are at fault, however, is not realistic. After all, LEO's are human beings just like me and none of us is perfect.
Thanks for complimenting the profession and our military. Thanks for your service. Don't forget that REMF's are in danger too these days. Don't forget the Khobar Towers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_bombing
and the Scud attack during the first Gulf war:
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-02-26/news/mn-1889_1_iraqi-scud
I made it clear that some LEO's have violated the trust placed in them. I am simply stating that it happens much more rarely than is perceived by many. And of course, you are right, none of us is perfect.
I also remember 9-11. I wonder when the next one will be. There was a TV series on for a while which I think might really be a possibility -- Jericho. Readers might also want to read Orson Scott Card's Empire. I really think that's what's in front of us and I only hope our nation will survive it.
Just wanted to mention -- and I don't know how to pull it up -- CNBC did a show about the Marijuana:Industry on Dish Channel 208. The show was on 081509 from 7-8 pm. Another item. I noticed a comment somewhere that using a hookah for a typical session (20 - 80 minutes) was the equivalent of smoking more than 100 cigarettes. I mention that because I've been told that hookahs are not as bad as cigarettes. The article mentioned that there were eight places in Gainesville which had them -- have no idea where. I've also been told that there are some in Jacksonville, as well.
I've just been doing some checking and here's a web address which discusses Marijuana and this show: http://www.cnbc.com/id/28281668.
Making something illegal doesn't make it go away, but it does create the opportunity for a black market to develop. Black markets usually lead to violence and corruption of police and politicians. Activities engaged in voluntarily by competent adults should be regulated rather than outlawed.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on August 15, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
Making something illegal doesn't make it go away, but it does create the opportunity for a black market to develop. Black markets usually lead to violence and corruption of police and politicians. Activities engaged in voluntarily by competent adults should be regulated rather than outlawed.
Beautifully said UL.
I say make it legal. People use weed all the time. The law is about the money the big dealers make. It would be nightmare for drug dealers. As far as hookers go....It already legal. thousands of porn sites on the net. Any category you need is there. And there are millions upon millions of women willing to do things for attention and for the buck. Google anything...it exist. As for the homo dudes, hey they can do as they please, until they start the yelling and protesting. I never really had the eww yuck feeling some men get when around them. Its their life, they can do whatever makes them happy.