Metro Jacksonville

(http://www.steamlocomotive.com/pacific/acl1504-old.jpg)

QuoteThe Monthly Meeting of the North Florida Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society
will be held on Thursday, July 23rd at 7:30 PM at CSX Building #1, Orientation Room. Address is 6737 Southpoint Drive South.

Special program will be supplied by Board member Jim McGinn featuring the restoration of
Santa Fe 3751 from a cold dormant locomotive in a city park, to an active steaming locomotive tackling mountain grades and desert temperatures.

This will truly inspire us to diligently work to preserve the ACL 1504 , which we trust will have been honored the previous day by her designation as a local historical landmark (please see previous E Mail) .

See you at the meeting. For any further information , please contact me at 739-8030. 

George Bollinger
Secretary
North Florida Chapter, National Railway Historical Society

The grand old gal behind the Jacksonville Terminal, aka: Prime Osbourne Convention Center, is up for a historic hearing. This could lead to long term preservation efforts and perhaps even full restoration, or seeding our own railroad museum.

Consider with the "S" line relaid, we would have several miles of city owned track for transit by day and freight by night... 1504 could go out on the weekends and stretch her long legs. She would be poetry in motion, the closest thing mankind has ever created to a living, breathing, animal. You laugh? Ask ANYONE who has ever had the pleasure to operate a steam engine and you'll get the same reply... LIVE STEAM.  

QuoteSubject: ACL 1504 Public Hearing 7/22/09


All interested parties :

The public hearing before the Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission for the local landmark designation
of ACL 1504 will be held at 3PM , July 22nd, 8th Floor meeting room of Ed Ball Building , 200 Block of North Hogan Street, Jacksonville, Florida .

All interested parties are invited and urged to attend. 

George Bollinger
Secretary
North Florida Chapter, National Railway Historical Society

OCKLAWAHA

COME ON PEOPLE, 1504 could get something out of this meeting. Bring her back to life? Maybe so, we'll see soon! What do you think?

OCKLAWAHA

Does anybody still want to volunteer to fix 1504? Where are you?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 20, 2009, 11:56:29 AM
Does anybody still want to volunteer to fix 1504? Where are you?

OCKLAWAHA

Some time ago I said I would.
And when the times comes, I will volunteer. Count me in for whatever I can do, even if it's just  polishing brass.
But I'm going to a funeral this week and will not make that meeting, sorry to say.

I'm out of town but would make a contribution toward the effort for sure.

I want to drive it... er engineer it... ah... you know! :)

Our West Nassau Historical Society (Callahan) is quite proud of our caboose located next to the old Callahan Railroad Depot.  We have quite a bit of railroad and other historical memorabilia.  Take a look at our website http://www.wnhsfl.org/ (http://www.wnhsfl.org/) and visit our museum.  Another place to check out Callahan's history, as noted in the comments on MetroJacksonville.com regarding Hog Hunting, Bar B Q and the City of Callahan, is Brandies Ace Hardware, 617299 Brandies Ave, Callahan.  Maybe I'll see you there.  If you're interested in genealogy, check out this website: http://www.genealogy.com/users/m/i/z/Jean-H-Mizell-FL/ (http://www.genealogy.com/users/m/i/z/Jean-H-Mizell-FL/) which concerns the West Nassau Genealogical Society.

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Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 20, 2009, 05:42:44 PM
I want to drive it... er engineer it... ah... you know! :)

(http://www.trainstuff.info/railroads/a/apalachicolanorthern/engineerhat.jpg)

Well troll, it IS a common mistake, as is steering. For train virgins, you steer, and thus drive an automobile, bike, bus or truck. One must "operate" a train. The best part is you were trying to get it right and I salute that my friend. To even farther mess up the lingo, the UK and most other regions of the world "Drive" their trains -- sucks that we can't agree on a term that has been causing trouble forever. Worse still the engineer is called a "Locomotive Driver." In the old days an engineer was required to care for his steed, certainly that is the work of a true mechanical Engineer.

On fixed rail transit the lingo follows the mode. Streetcar drivers are known as a "Motorman," or "Motormen". Unlike their bus driver contemporaries, female operators are simply called "Operators." Keep in mind that the CONDUCTOR is the captain of the train or streetcar or monorail.

Smile!

OCKLAWAHA  

Thanks Ock! :)

How did the hearing turn out?...the sign is still on the fence at the Prime Osbourne. ???

Ock, sorry, I'd rather see an E-3 on the S line than 1504. I like steam, but I love the streamliner diesels.

Ock, Id rather see 1504 in operation than a diesel generic. :)

Quotediesel generic

Timkin, do you even know what an E-3 is? Ever see any of the E-3 locomotives that graced the Jacksonville Terminal in its heyday?

Hmm, I think if there's one thing we can all learn from Thomas & Friends, it's that steamies are graceful & elegant creatures, with fun attitudes & personalities all their own. While diesels are loud, smelly things that are often grouchy & generic looking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6vAfUXx3nY

I think there's a reason why all the diesels on that show are dicks. Because diesels suck! ;D ;)

QuoteI think there's a reason why all the diesels on that show are dicks. Because diesels suck!

Perhaps you should start walking instead of riding the bus then????

Quote from: mtraininjax on April 07, 2011, 06:30:24 PM

QuoteI think there's a reason why all the diesels on that show are dicks. Because diesels suck!

Perhaps you should start walking instead of riding the bus then????

Well, I think buses suck too if that makes you feel any better. Especially considering what they replaced (electric streetcars). They were an answer to a problem that didn't exist.

Nope, give me steam & electric any day my friend.

Ditto

Quote from: mtraininjax on April 07, 2011, 06:05:30 PM

Quotediesel generic

Timkin, do you even know what an E-3 is? Ever see any of the E-3 locomotives that graced the Jacksonville Terminal in its heyday?

No but I'm sure you do. My point is, I would like to see this Locomotive operational again.  But of course ,since that is my position ,you will come up with some negative, smartass remark much like you have endlessly attacked my values of historic preservation, and my desire to see School #4 saved.  It just spells out (to your discredit) who you really are.   Fire away M-train. :) 

Go Tim!  Got to admire someone who bites back.   ;)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 23, 2009, 10:40:39 AM

............Keep in mind that the CONDUCTOR is the captain of the train or streetcar or monorail.

Smile!

OCKLAWAHA  

Unless you are the electrician and then the conductor is just  a wire or bus bar.  

mmmmmmmmmmmm  ..... "Bus Bar"  now there is an idea ...... easily distracted. Refurburshing that engine would be a lot of manhours. It would take considerable dedication on someone's part.

Quote from: Timkin on April 07, 2011, 11:40:45 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on April 07, 2011, 06:05:30 PM

Quotediesel generic

Timkin, do you even know what an E-3 is? Ever see any of the E-3 locomotives that graced the Jacksonville Terminal in its heyday?

No but I'm sure you do. My point is, I would like to see this Locomotive operational again.  But of course ,since that is my position ,you will come up with some negative, smartass remark much like you have endlessly attacked my values of historic preservation, and my desire to see School #4 saved.  It just spells out (to your discredit) who you really are.   Fire away M-train. :) 

I wouldn't sweat it too much. It's pretty obvious just in the time I've been here that he clearly goes out of his way to be the voice of opposition, no matter the subject. "You guys like those beautiful steam locomotives huh? Well, screw that son! Diesels rule!!" LOL, really dude? Diesels?? No one thinks that.

So I dunno. Trying to inject different opinions into the topics? Trying to keep people on their toes?? Who knows his reasons. Maybe its simply just to get a rise outta the user base & he likes the attention.

he must need the attention.

Quote from: Overstreet on April 08, 2011, 08:40:03 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 23, 2009, 10:40:39 AM

............Keep in mind that the CONDUCTOR is the captain of the train or streetcar or monorail.

Smile!

OCKLAWAHA  

Unless you are the electrician and then the conductor is just  a wire or bus bar. 

mmmmmmmmmmmm  ..... "Bus Bar"  now there is an idea ...... easily distracted. Refurburshing that engine would be a lot of manhours. It would take considerable dedication on someone's part.

Can you / we  do it Ock?

Quote from: mtraininjax on April 07, 2011, 06:05:30 PM

Quotediesel generic

Timkin, do you even know what an E-3 is? Ever see any of the E-3 locomotives that graced the Jacksonville Terminal in its heyday?

No.. would have to say I know little about Locomotives or trains in general.  No doubt Ock does know the difference. I do remember the 1504  even as a young child.  Its a thing you don't seem to like .....called a Historic Landmark.  But that is okay.  to each their own.

Seriously though... Would 1504 even be repairable now?  I mean its been sitting , what, close to half of a century?  Ironically kind of like another landmark I know in even worse condition.

I'm curious about the 1504.  Think I'll visit to see if it looks complete and restorable to a running engine.  If one were to fire it up again, the most critical item would be a possible deteriorated boiler, as an explosion wouldn't be fun for anyone near it. 

I suspect that it could be made to operate again.  Any engineers or mechanics who had worked on these things in the late forties or early fifties when they were about 30 years of age would be about 90 years of age now.  Some of these old fellows, as a fun project just before going to train-heaven would still be able to teach some new drivers and mechs how to fix and operate it.

Actually, any good mechanic, with good common sense would, by using the right books on these engines, be able bring it to operation.  If I had the time, which I do not, and was asked to do the project, I wouldn’t hesitate to do it.  There are others I’m sure, who are capable, and who would wish to engage such a fun restoration project.  The mechanic / engineer type is all it takes.

Imagine the fun seeing how this 19 century mechanism works; all the pressures, temperatures, pistons, cylinders, and valves â€" all connected by levers, rods, and fluid and air lines.  It would illustrate some of the basic principles of physics, being an education tool as a side benefit.  And the music it makes is so grand.  I remember these things in the forties and fifties.  The noise and steam allows these things to become real monsters to the child, something they never forget. 
To me, these steam engines are so much more interesting.  The diesel electric is technology currently being used all over the place â€" our diesel automobiles.  The steam engine is not used much these days, and to see one operate in a locomotive, showing off its working principles, would offer continuing fun and education to all ages. 
     
And to have it operate once a week, perhaps on Saturday, on a run from the city core to some destination about fifty miles away would be an interesting plus for the city.  Imagine if we placed the track right down the center of Forsyth Street, backing it down from the Prime Osborn area to pick up “paying” passengers around Laura Street.  I would expect most people would pay $30 to $40 for the ride.  Three cars with 30 per car = 90 passengers X $35 = $3,150 per run.  Perhaps the cars would hold more than 30 passengers.     

The locomotive is much like the navy destroyer which hopefully will be brought to Jax for permanent display.  These kinds of things are genuine and fundamental, which is what I love about them, not being a Disney kind of superficial fabrication to attempt wowing kids and kid grownups with simpleton candy, colored with red and blue lights and flashing too.

The project would take money, but I’m imagining that it probably doesn’t take as much as one might think.  I expect that there would be a lot of volunteers, such as myself, as I have the time. 

Just thinking.  Wondering.  Projects sometimes start this way.       
         

Broke my heart to really look at,observe 1504 last year while at a chance Prime Osborne event.........blatant deterioration........why not display this under cover,out of the sun and rain we wondered.......?

Quote from: ronchamblin on January 22, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
And to have it operate once a week, perhaps on Saturday, on a run from the city core to some destination about fifty miles away would be an interesting plus for the city.  Imagine if we placed the track right down the center of Forsyth Street, backing it down from the Prime Osborn area to pick up “paying” passengers around Laura Street.  I would expect most people would pay $30 to $40 for the ride.  Three cars with 30 per car = 90 passengers X $35 = $3,150 per run.  Perhaps the cars would hold more than 30 passengers.

Ron, your average single level passenger coach will comfortably handle 80 passengers and the bi-level cars typically 96.     

QuoteThe locomotive is much like the navy destroyer which hopefully will be brought to Jax for permanent display.  These kinds of things are genuine and fundamental, which is what I love about them, not being a Disney kind of superficial fabrication to attempt wowing kids and kid grownups with simpleton candy, colored with red and blue lights and flashing too.

We have a unique opportunity to plow new ground here. With an embryonic commuter rail system, a scheduled run powered   by our COJ locomotive.

Equally important to railroad fans and, or visiting officials is "collecting" rare track miles. Again we have some pretty unique opportunities, The St. Marys Railroad, First Coast Railroad, Blount Island branchline, North Main Street, through to Springfield and Jacksonville Terminal.

We also have several complete fabricating facilities in the port area, we also have a very complete railroad equipment
restoration and rebuilding shops belonging to WATCO off of Kings in the north side.

Price is where this thing could easily spin out of out of control, we'd have to create some sort of built in warning to spot segments heading in that direction. Steam engines are labor intensive, and are to diesels what MAC's are to PC's, head smacking simple. The trouble is, there are no parts sources, and a good many parts for these beasts can be fabricated by an industrial blacksmith shop. But hold on to your wallets, CHA - CHING! 

I agree that the 1504 has as much of a 'place' in Jacksonville as will a Navy Destroyer. We ARE the railroad capital of the state, and the passenger train capital of the southeast with little to show for it as far as preserved exhibits. Shamefully Green Cove Springs and Camp Blanding have FAR MORE in the way of museum space or displays then Jacksonville.


Y'all put me in charge of equipment for a commuter railroad, and I'd buy a small fleet of remanufactured RDC cars, the famous articulated streamliner 'Mark Twain Zephyr', and a 1930's vintage 'doodlebug'. We'd have regular operations with our RDC's but you can bet we'd be pulling in rail tourism from around the globe on special occasions, holidays, and scheduled event dates. The 1504 would fit that 'operating museum' stable perfectly.

QuoteThe project would take money, but I’m imagining that it probably doesn’t take as much as one might think.  I expect that there would be a lot of volunteers, such as myself, as I have the time. 

Just thinking.  Wondering.  Projects sometimes start this way.       

Who actually 'owns' the 1504?

Quote from: ronchamblin on January 22, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
And to have it operate once a week, perhaps on Saturday, on a run from the city core to some destination about fifty miles away would be an interesting plus for the city.  Imagine if we placed the track right down the center of Forsyth Street, backing it down from the Prime Osborn area to pick up “paying” passengers around Laura Street.  I would expect most people would pay $30 to $40 for the ride.  Three cars with 30 per car = 90 passengers X $35 = $3,150 per run.  Perhaps the cars would hold more than 30 passengers.

You could run it from town all the down to the oldest city in America (St Augustine). I bet they'd get behind something like that too.

Quote from: north miami on January 22, 2012, 08:51:32 PM

Broke my heart to really look at,observe 1504 last year while at a chance Prime Osborne event.........blatant deterioration........why not display this under cover,out of the sun and rain we wondered.......?

^^  This seems to be an epidemic when it comes to history, historical, or significance of either of the two , in this City.

When will it ever be different if now is not the time to change it?

Shortly after the close of World War I, the ACL took delivery of 70 USRA "Pacifics" which were built by the American Locomotive Company. They were designated as Class P-5A and assigned road numbers 1500 through 1569. These locomotives had 25x28 cylinders, 73" drivers, a 200 psi boiler pressure, exerted 40,750 lbs of tractive effort and each weighred 278,000 pounds. The Class P-5A locomotives were very fast for their time and became the standard main line passenger locomotive, but they also did well in freight service.


OCK

My concern too is about a possible rise in cost.  However, I expect that the engineers actually driving the locomotive will not only volunteer to do so, but would even agree to pay if asked.  I expect that all of the labor for the engine would be volunteered by those of us who love machinery, and especially locomotives.  I would gladly spend my off hours cleaning, painting, lubricating, removing and replacing worn parts, calibrating, etc., just to enjoy being around the beast.

And I expect that any entity having parts or anything we needed would not attempt to gouge us, but would realize that we are working on a shoestring as we attempt to bring back to life an old engine so that she can work again.   

And Ock, the 80 passenger capacity means that we could start with only one passenger coach if necessary.  If filled with $40 paying passengers to St. Augustine, it would gross $3,200 per round trip.  On a Saturday or Sunday, or both days, two trips per day could be run, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, or even in the evening, staying St. Augustine for a couple of hours or so.  This scenario will be cause to expect some assistance from some entities in St. Augustine, as it would provide increased visitors to their city. 

Wonder what the running costs would be?  It drinks water and burns coal.  Wonder how much coal it burns per hour?  The one-way trip to St. Augustine would take about 30 minutes to 45 minutes.  So, let’s say it would burn coal for two hours each round trip.  If we estimate that it would burn five cubic feet of coal per hour, then a round trip would burn 10 cubic feet.  I haven’t bought coal for our furnace since 1948, when we left Baltimore, so a wild guess of the cost of coal might be about $20 per cubic foot, meaning that the coal cost per round trip would be about $200.  Surely the water cost per trip would not exceed $50 or so. 

If we bump the estimates for coal and water per round trip to perhaps $400, we would be making a net profit so to speak of about $2,800, to be put in the bank for someone to embezzle, but hopefully for upkeep and other expenses, such as insurance, if needed.  Maintenance costs would be tools, lubricant, parts, perhaps storage for these things, and the occasional machine shop fabrication of a unique part.  If we obtained another coach, thereby bringing our total paying passengers to 160, then the theoretical net profit per round trip would be about $6,000. 

Our exchange of ideas will eventually determine the feasibility of the 1504 project.  If the desire to do it remains high, we can proceed toward the goal, attempting to eliminate any roadblocks as they come upon us.  Of course, if there arises a formidable roadblock, around which or through which we cannot go, the project is doomed.  And if the desire subsides, if the benefits and pluses subside, if the vision weakens, then that too will kill the project.

So, we might begin with the idea of the vision, and ask ourselves if the project’s completion will bring to us and our city what we wish it to bring.  Will having a twice daily run by a steam locomotive, at least on Saturday, to a place like St. Augustine, be a significant plus for our area, especially for the downtown core?  I think it would be important to have, if possible and feasible, the starting point for a round trip right in the city core.

Once the vision emerges clearly before those of us seeking involvement, then by exercising our imagination, we can attempt to destroy it, weaken it, to see if it is real, if it is valid.  If the vision seems to withstand all attempts to kill it, then we might consider the next step, which is to generate a plan for it’s achievement, looking always for something that might kill the project. 

As time passes, the strength of the vision within those involved will rise and fall, and all will wonder about the project’s feasibility, about it’s ultimate gain for the city.  And as time passes, those involved in planning will run into problems, will seek answers to questions, and will ultimately either succeed in building a solid and feasible plan, or their energy will be consumed and depleted by too many formidable obstacles.

This is another case of demolition by neglect.  Can' t there at least be a shelter built?   

The old engine and flat car at the Fl Dept. of Agriculture Building in Tallahassee is getting a new Shelter.  Looks like an Army unit is helping with it.  (not sure, but the forklift and other heavy equipment are olive drab ro tan)

This may be the oldest locomotive in Florida. It is a 4-4-0 built around 1850 by either Danforth Cooke & Company or by New Jersey Locomotive & Machine. It was sold to the Basche & Hagen Lumber Company (Suwanee River Railroad) in Live Oak, FL. Around 1906 it was moved to Luraville, FL and when the railroad line was abandoned, the locomotive and several log cars were rolled off of a barge into the Suwanee River! In 1968, divers confirmed the location of this locomotive. It wasn't until January of 1979 that James Lancaster of Luraville salvaged her. In 1984 she was sold to the state of Florida and in 1986 she was placed on display at the State Agriculture Department Offices in Tallahassee. Additional information on this locomotive may be found in the 7/79 (page 14), 11/79 (page 52), 12/99 (page 116) issues of TRAINS

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/florida/tallahassee.jpg (http://www.steamlocomotive.com/florida/tallahassee.jpg) 

JEA has a coal fired plant and the stuff that falls off the conveyor belt could be gleaned to run the locomotive. I'm sure JEA would be happy to donate our coal for our engine as well as get some volunteers from their steam  generator maintenance crew to work on the boiler. Ya think? Also, the fire department needs to train every so often, spraying water on something or other. A little lights and siren on a run to fill up the tank?