I have noticed recently an increase in improperly maintained, replaced, or newly built manhole covers.
MetroJax should do a photo expose to provoke an improvement.
On recently rebuilt Hendricks Avenue in San Marco, many of the covers were improperly set from the beginning an inch or more below their frames causing very bumpy and jarring rides. Further, much of the concrete encircling the frames is cracked, chipping away, and/or settling, further causing an uneven drive. It's so bad that I have to "dangerously" drive outside my lane trying to avoid all these challenges.
The cracking and crumbling concrete around the cover frames is spreading like a cancer throughout roads around the city. I am especially surprised to see it occurring on well maintained and/or newly built/rebuilt roads under the supervision and inspection of FDOT. Assuming these manholes are built by utilities such as JEA, ATT, and TECO, who is holding them to a higher standard?
Add this problem to the list of things needing to be fixed in Jax! Maybe one of our DOT gurus could respond ??? . Thanks.
It would be great if we had manhole covers like these:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/the-wacky-wonderful-world-of-japanese-manhole-cover-art/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/the-wacky-wonderful-world-of-japanese-manhole-cover-art/)
The Jacksonville manhole covers actually do have a nice scene imprinted on them. I think they would look great colorized.
Quote from: scaleybark on July 13, 2009, 11:25:44 PM
It would be great if we had manhole covers like these:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/the-wacky-wonderful-world-of-japanese-manhole-cover-art/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/03/the-wacky-wonderful-world-of-japanese-manhole-cover-art/)
Nice covers and NO CRACKS, etc. We should have a little of this pride.
Beautiful but very theftable. What lawabiding folks the Japanese citizens are.
I don't think a 250-300 pound manhole cover is in too much danger of being swiped.
Enlightening...
http://www.answers.com/topic/manhole-cover-2
Manhole covers and rings come as an assembly or can be purchased seperately but rarely. The recess in the ring for the cover is standard so how the cover can be lower than the frame I don't understand unless they got them mixed up. Covers and frames are often set at final finish paving elevation during construction. The final wear course asphalt then brings the road up to the final elevation is installed after the final "detailing" is complete. Then they come back and install the concrete strip.
The concrete strip around the ring/frame is often placed after the asphalt is laid. It is often unreinforced and likely to crack.
Settling usually comes from two causes. A..the soils were not properly compacted during back fill. B....there are water issues in the soil. Of course there is always the problem of light duty roads with heavy duty traffic.
Thanks for the insight Overstreet! Welcome to the forum... :)
Try the manhole cluster f*ck at Riverside and Stockton. Even me with by full sized pickup go over that intersection slowly. The one time I didn't, I wound up with CD's flying everywhere. San Marco Blvd is bad, especially in the curve near Landon.
As a side note, they need to trim that tree back on the right going northbound. You can't see the traffic light until your literally 10ft away, and have seen many people accidentally pass thru it.
As a side note, they need to trim that tree back on the right going northbound. You can't see the traffic light until your literally 10ft away, and have seen many people accidentally pass thru it.
[/quote]
Just exactly where are you referring to? San Marco or Riverside?
Quote from: Overstreet on July 16, 2009, 09:52:37 AM
Manhole covers and rings come as an assembly or can be purchased seperately but rarely. The recess in the ring for the cover is standard so how the cover can be lower than the frame I don't understand unless they got them mixed up. Covers and frames are often set at final finish paving elevation during construction. The final wear course asphalt then brings the road up to the final elevation is installed after the final "detailing" is complete. Then they come back and install the concrete strip.
The concrete strip around the ring/frame is often placed after the asphalt is laid. It is often unreinforced and likely to crack.
Settling usually comes from two causes. A..the soils were not properly compacted during back fill. B....there are water issues in the soil. Of course there is always the problem of light duty roads with heavy duty traffic.
Overstreet (an apparently very apropos name for your expertise), thanks for your input. I have observed these procedures casually in driving by street construction.
I don't understand how the covers can sit below the rims either, but they are on several new manholes on the recently widened and rebuilt Hendricks Ave. in San Marco. There, and elsewhere around town, the cracking concrete circles are a major problem.
Why aren't these more closely inspected for meeting standards, or are the standards adequate? At a minimum, why aren't they reinforced as they clearly could benefit from it given they often start cracking almost immediately after being poured?DOT and the City need to look at their controls and standards for these "instant potholes". It's bad enough that utility asphalt patches don't hold up well either but this is "over the top" (no pun intended :D ). It makes no sense to build or rebuild roads only to have problems like these showing up continuously. Just think of the cost savings to road departments if they didn't have to replace thousands of these circles every couple of years.
I was thinking the same thing just recently. I've been driving up and down Hendricks since I became of age to drive 15 years ago and I've just realized how bumpy the ride has become in the past few months. The road's in good shape, but the manhole covers are well below the ground and create a pretty rough drive if you stay in the right hand land heading north on Hendricks.
Try calling 904-630-CITY. Maybe they can fix any problems...
Everytime i've tried to call them it's always after they're close, so I went on coj.net and made an online service request. Not for the manholes though, it was for that freaking pothole with a barricade up that's been blocking half of Lasalle off for over a month now.
Quote from: jbroadglide on July 16, 2009, 12:11:18 PM
Just exactly where are you referring to? San Marco or Riverside?
Read above, the curve in San Marco at Landon, going towards downtown.
What gets me are the parts of roads that are sinking because of water seppage, and they try to put new asphalt over it, knowing good and well, it'll continue to sag before opening up.
Quote from: TheProfessor on July 16, 2009, 02:11:04 PM
Try calling 904-630-CITY. Maybe they can fix any problems...
I believe many, if not most, of our major roads with manholes, including Hendricks, are state roads under the jurisdiction of FDOT. I was hoping one of our FDOT connected posters here would bypass the bureaucracy and get this on the list for addressing. Any takers?
You mean this isn't how it's supposed to be?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/677451281_SQMgX-L.jpg)
Or, they are so old they are real thick and all rusted out with cracks in them and the surrounding concrete. The Manhole Cover in the previous photo, in and of itself looks o.k., but look at the concrete on the surface around the hole that it is covering up, all cracked up, cracked out, which could result in the hole getting bigger and the Manhole Cover not being able to cover it up.
Heights Unknown
The manhole cover in the background, in my opinion, is a better example of how one should look.
Heights Unknown
Lunican, please take your MJ camera down the BRAND NEW Hendricks in San Marco and bring back the mess of broken concrete and manhole covers sitting below their rims for us. It's especially bad from the I-95 overpass to the intersection with Atlantic. These manholes were never right from the beginning and FDOT is asleep at the wheel on this one! Someone needs to be held accountable! ???
It should be tended to, just like the first streetlight on the East side of Main in front of the Shell station downtown. It is leaning at about a 15% angle. Walking up to it, the base is no longer connected to anything but broken concrete. The slightest touch sends it rocking and lifts the bolts from the holes! BEWARE, if they don't fix it soon, it WILL come down on someone.
The manhole covers are in the same situation. As I'm sure anyone who has a construction, or transportation background can tell you, when two completely different materials such as concrete and steel, or asphalt and concrete, come in contact with each other, there is no way to bond them naturally. This ALWAYS leaves a crack. Water enters that space and the pressure applied by countless vehicles, and especially trucks or heavy buses, is dispursed differently on a 50' wide piece of asphalt then on a 5' wide ring of concrete. That displacement need only be fractions, but given time, it will ruin the entire roadway. Again, the enemy of roads and railroads is liquefaction of the sub-roadbed. This is caused by a pumping action as heavy wheels depress the spot and then release it over and over, like patting the sand near the surf, you'll get water and a hole pretty fast.
The factor that applies more to roads then to rail, is cold weather. Does it get below 32 in Jacksonville? Ever? Hell, I've seen it colder here then on the high prairie of Oklahoma. I've also seen a week or two where it never got above 32 degrees. What this means to roads is the cold fronts are usually led by rain, (snow if your from the north), the rain, sleet or snow gets into those cracks and melts, filling them with water. When the storm passes and the temperatures plummet, that water freezes. We all know that a small amount of water can make a big ice cube, and that is what happens in those tiny hairline cracks. Suddenly they are not so tiny anymore.
A good investment for private light traffic area's is a seal coat over a pavement job, something liquid enough and with enough tack to hang tough in the voids. Highways today are using layers of fabrics, as well as tack coats but again, when you have to cut through with a pipe, there isn't much that one can do.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, thanks for the insight. But... these covers were a mess from day one. They didn't have time to fall apart, they were built that way. And, the covers sitting below the rims is a manufacturing or construction issue to me (not unlike the peeling traffic posts), not one of different materials failing to stay in position. When you visit or see the pix, you will appreciate the issue. Thanks.
(http://media.naplesnews.com/media/img/photos/2009/05/07/080422NS-GK-UGLYMAST-1_t607.jpg)
Well, doesn't look like DOT is keeping up with manhole covers on Hendricks in San Marco but just as bad is the embarrassing and ongoing disaster with peeling paint on traffic light poles all over Jax. If I had a building peeling paint like this I would have been cited by Code Enforcement long ago. Yet, DOT hasn't done a thing about these poles for years now and everyday they look worse and worse as the paint increasingly peels and rust sets in.
How is that FDOT can ignore these problems indefinitely? And, why isn't someone held accountable (i.e. litigation) for installing and/or selling defective structures?
Apparently, this is a statewide problem that FDOT has failed to deal with. See article in Naples, FL below:Quote
Replacement of peeling traffic signal poles hits another roadblock
* By TRACY X. MIGUEL
* Posted May 6, 2009 at 7:31 p.m
NAPLES â€" Another setback is delaying the replacement of Naples’ unsightly traffic signal poles that began peeling green paint soon after they were installed.
Some of the two-piece mast arms don’t fit properly together and don’t meet Florida Department of Transportation’s specific standards, FDOT spokeswoman Debbie Tower said.
“The frustration level has gone past the point of rage,†Naples Mayor Bill Barnett said.
The agreement had called for all the installation work to be completed by April 30, FDOT officials said.
With the latest setback, there is no expected date for completion.
Naples resident Joan Thomas said she feels it’s a shame that when entering downtown Naples, which is suppose to be “so prestigious,†one sees paint peeling on the poles.
“They’re just awful,†she said, adding that the worst one was at Central Avenue. “I don’t understand why it’s taking so long. It’s just as bad as graffiti.â€
Since work wasn’t finished by April 30, FDOT once again pulled Fort Lauderdale-based Atlas Traffic Management Systems LLC, formerly Mastec of North America, off the state’s qualified bidder list.
That means Atlas may not bid on state projects as a prime contractor or subcontractor, Tower said.
However, Atlas may continue to work on this project until it is completed, Tower said.
“When this project is finished Atlas can be reinstated, but first and foremost Atlas must complete this project,†Tower said.
Atlas Senior Vice President John Coyne couldn’t be reached for comment Wednesday.
So far, poles at intersections at U.S. 41 and Tenth Street South and Fifth Avenue South and Eighth Street South have been replaced.
Work at U.S. 41 and Central Avenue is about half way finished, Tower said.
Crews were scheduled to return Wednesday night to install a traffic pole at Pine Ridge Road and Shirley Street, Tower said.
In 2006, DOT filed a lawsuit against Atlas Traffic Management Systems LLC to replace traffic signal mast arms at 12 intersections in Collier.
The paint on the poles started peeling because of a flaw in the galvanization process when the poles were coated with a protective metal before being painted. The green finish on the signal mast arms began to peel less than a year after installation, DOT officials said.
Through arbitration, the department reached an agreement with Atlas in December 2007.
Since then, the timeline for the signals’ replacement has been pushed back repeatedly, until the department amended the settlement in August 2008 and reached a final settlement to set the year-end deadline.
Since work wasn’t finished before the end of the year, FDOT removed Atlas from the state’s qualified bidder list in earlier January. But that had been lifted with some new criteria in the agreement and Atlas had been once again on the state’s qualified bidder list until recently, officials said.
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2009/may/06/replacement-peeling-traffic-signal-poles-hits-anot/
Tell the truth, the light pole just happened to be in the frame of what you were really taking a picture of!! ;)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on December 20, 2009, 09:06:32 PM
Tell the truth, the light pole just happened to be in the frame of what you were really taking a picture of!! ;)
Charles, that picture is from the Naples newspaper site. Really, though, what is the eye appeal of just a signal pole with peeling paint? ;D
By the way, this is a major issue state wide for FDOT over the last 10 years or so. They have guidelines for remedial action, but it doesn't seem they are being agressively applied in Jax where the problem is among the worst anywhere. If Jax leaders care about our public image, why aren't they demanding action like Naples?
Excerpts on FDOT white paper on peeling signal poles:QuoteCoating Failures on Painted Galvanized Mast Arms
Paul Vinik, MSChE, P.E.
Florida Department of Transportation
Gainesville, Florida
Richard A. Burgess, B.S, M.S
KTA-Tator, Inc.
Nashville, Tennessee
Abstract: Galvanized mast arms support uncounted numbers of traffic signals and signage throughout the United States. The proportion of these that have a “duplex†coating system (both galvanizing and organic coatings) is unknown. However, the number is surely significant, and the number of coating system failures is also significant. The Florida Department of Transportation has estimated there are at least 2,400 mast arm coating failures throughout the State, 150 in the Jacksonville, FL area alone. The authors will discuss findings and experiences from investigating the causes for failures of the mast arm duplex systems and remedies available to owners.....
.....FDOT Approach to Resolution
Issues and Economic Considerations[
FDOT inspected mast arm structures in Jacksonville and Orlando, Florida in September 2004 and reported and estimated failure rate of 15 to 20%. Investigations in November 2004 described the nature of the failures and associated causes. Based on the inspection and investigations undertaken it was estimated that up to 3,000 failed mast arms may exist among the roughly 15,000 coated galvanized mast arms in the state.
A series of important issues were identified while developing an approach to resolving the problem with existing structures and future structures.
• Risk of catastrophic failure
• Risk to the motoring public
• Defining failure and degree of failure
• Impact on mast arm service life
• Resources required to identify failed units
• Remediation of failed units
• Interfacing with vendors to eliminate future failures on new structures
The potential economic impact of galvanized mast arm coating failures is significant; not only to the State of Florida but to the vendors as well. Each of the mast arms represents an investment of $50,000 which represents a potential collective financial impact of as much as $150 million.
Currently, any structures failing in less than 820 days fall under the latent defect clause of the standard specifications and must be repaired or replaced by the contractor. Structures older than 820 days are being handled on a structure by structure basis.
FDOT implemented a revised Section 649 of the Standard Specifications in June of 2007 to address future structures. This revised specification has no new direct instructions regarding materials or methods to paint a structure. However, it does require that the Contractor designate a Responsible Party who is responsible for the adhesion and color retention of the structures.
The Responsible Party is also responsible for providing a five year warranty beginning at the time of project final acceptance that covers any repairs that are required with regard to adhesion or color. The Responsible Party can be either the Contractor or the Fabricator. When the responsible Party is the Fabricator, they must be pre-approved by the Department and be listed on the Pre-qualified Fabricators of Painted Galvanized Steel Strain Poles, Monotube, and Mast Arm Assemblies (MAMA List). In addition, the Fabricator must provide an annual bond based on the number of structures provided to the Department the previous year.
Technical Considerations
The immediate technical considerations included identifying existing failed poles and the procedures/protocols for remediation and establishing performance criteria to differentiate failing from non-failing poles.
Options for remediation of existing mast arms could range from in-situ cleaning and repainting to replacement. A statewide repair procedure for correcting failing structures was issued in April 2006.
Briefly the remediation procedure is as follows:
• Identify failed mast arms by the presence of failed coating.
• Inspect the interior surface for steel corrosion
o If interior corrosion is present the structure is to be replaced.
o If interior corrosion is not present the structure is to be repainted
• Repaint the structure in the field or in a shop as follows:
o Pressure wash with 5000 psi
o Abrasive blast SSPC SP-10 (exception: leave good zinc)
o Apply organic zinc primer and Polysiloxane finish coat per manufacturer’s
requirements.
Changes made to prevent future failures included implementation of a revised qualified product list (QPL) in April 2007. Standard Specification Section 649 revision established color and coating adherence requirements and preparation of coupon standards.
http://www.kta.com/knowledge/PACE2008/CoatingFailureGalvanized.pdf
Makes me wonder if the Manhole cover rim is installed upside down? Something is not right if the cover is below the rim level since they are designed to fit flush with the rim edge. Concrete is cheap non fiberious quickcrete more than likely since it is cracking............no internal mesh or rebar! Several ways to do it..........which ever is the cheapest way (quickest) and non inspected way to do it, thats whats being done! Makes me wonder just who is raking off the profits from the install, sounds like a racket someone is making money off of and the taxpayer gets to pay for substandard work! Thanks COJ!!
FDOT's answer to this problem is that no new state-installed light poles wil be painted...so be on the lookout for grey/silver metallic mast arms!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2009, 08:19:56 AM
FDSOT's answer to this problem is that no new state-installed light poles wil be painted...so be on the lookout for grey/silver metallic mast arms!
Better than some of those lighting towers on 295 they're replacing that are all rusted on the exterior.
In light of political correctness, it is said that Peyton offered a bill before the City Council to have the name changed to "Woman hole Covers", but owing to technical difficulties the plan was scrapped.
OCKLAWAHA
When your done laughing, this actually happened in MN!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 21, 2009, 08:19:56 AM
FDOT's answer to this problem is that no new state-installed light poles wil be painted...so be on the lookout for grey/silver metallic mast arms!
That's what I took from the materials I have seen, Tufsu. The question is what about those already installed that are serving as eyesores at most every major intersection in the City? Why aren't they being repainted or replaced? I see no signs of remedial activity as called for in their own white paper. Given that the roots of this problem go back 10 years or so, why is this dragging on and on. FDOT publicly promised solutions a long time ago.
I would assume their answer will be a lack of money.
To be honest, I would like them to spend the money on something else. As I mentioned in another thread, if you tour some other cities, you'll notice our roads are extremely nice and we seem to always have road construction. I'm not really sure why. I guess we want to be known for the nicest streets that no one visits. Awesome!
Signal poles have a paint issue.........basic pole is galvanized inside and out but if it is done to lowest bidder spec's ....no wonder the paint is flaking off!....possibly no primer or contaminated,could be several issue including pole was wet upon painting! As to the Manhole covers...........that looks like lowest bidder work or else someone does this all the time for the City and they don't know what they are doing!
Where Belfort RD and Salisbury come together, there used to be a fence that PROTECTED people who did not see the T-intersection in time, before they launched themselves through the brush and into Northbound I-95. That fence has been down since September, the City fixed it once, now the lack of City Council leadership and General City disregard for safety is asking for a tragedy, before they do anything to fix the current openness. The vast openness of Belfort RD/Salisbury and the deer/wildlife could next appear on your windshield, if you are not careful, there is nothing to keep them from I-95.
Help! I'm confused. Taking a look at Google Maps - the Bowden/Salisbury intersection is no where near I-95. Are you talking about the road that goes to Sleiman's building? Is it in the area where JTA is adding a new lane to I-95? Their contractor may have taken the fence down so their trucks could get to the construction site?
Sorry, I meant Belfort Road and Salisbury, since corrected. Thank you for the insight! ;)
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 21, 2009, 04:46:52 PM
Signal poles have a paint issue.........basic pole is galvanized inside and out but if it is done to lowest bidder spec's ....no wonder the paint is flaking off!....possibly no primer or contaminated,could be several issue including pole was wet upon painting! As to the Manhole covers...........that looks like lowest bidder work or else someone does this all the time for the City and they don't know what they are doing!
The ones that came for the San Jose project several years ago came out without the factory paint. They were painted in the field after erection. Probably not pretreated properly for the coating on the pole.
Overstreet .....I agree! Something had to NOT been done for paint to be stripping, flaking and just plain coming the hell off! No primer or what ever..........you just can not put paint on a galvanized surface and expect it to stay!