(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1162/883088211_7725589920.jpg)
Okie dokie y'all, we've pretty well figured out the cure for the ills of the whole city in the original "Where are the Malls?" Now a new thread to rebuild downtown.
Counting on the space at or near The Shipyards, what Can't Miss, Must Have, Create it's own energy, Super Store do we need in a new "NORTHBANK ESPLANADE" to create it's own energy. Looks to me like:
(http://discoverlosangeles.com/images/Los%20Angeles%20Malls,3_The%20Grove468x261.png)
IKEA - Can't miss
BASS PRO SHOPS - Another Can't Miss.
And?
(http://onetanktrips.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/oscar-event-center-and-monorail-at-entrance1.jpg)
Connect it to the landing and the new Convention Center/Hyatt site with the Water Taxi, Skyway and Streetcars, then just jump out of the way while it fills to capacity day after day, night after night and weekend after weekend. This is not a remake of the Landing, as the Landing is far too small, has no transit or parking to speak of... This "Esplanade Idea" would be more of a Main Street USA (in real life - eat your heart out Mickey).
(http://www.gomacotrolley.com/resources/photos/glendalephotos/grandopening/ellis/OF-050820-D-17.jpg)
Other factors?
A couple of mega museums?
Theater?
An Aquarium?
Food? What is the must have in this arena?
This would wake up the sleeping giant, and fill it with incredible resolve!
(http://shimworld.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/img_2724.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
oh jesus, yeah thats what we need a huge ikea eyesore on riverfront property. have you ever seen these things, they'd give the stadium a run for its money in size
(http://www.allstatemetalfab.com/images/ikea.jpg)
Quote from: hightowerlover on June 23, 2009, 06:31:57 PM
oh jesus, yeah thats what we need a huge ikea eyesore on riverfront property. have you ever seen these things, they'd give the stadium a run for its money in size
(http://www.gdmpartnership.com/media/images/project_images_large/ikea-coventry-large1.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/108/304734419_eeb5efaa47.jpg)
That all depends on how WE design the area, in Japan Ikea has it's own "Skyway", in New York they have their own "BRT". They also have a record for fitting into the community. As for me? Oh yeah, the Miami "Sawgrass area" store is great, ditto Orlando's. Don't know if I'd go inside if your into Amish Built American Classic furniture, might cause your head to explode... But anyone that likes modern will come out drunk on ideas. (http://grammarpolice.net/images/ikea_train.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
I, for one, can do without having Ikea or Bass Pro Shops in downtown...and for that matter, both locate near interstate interchanges...Ikea has built very few urban stores in the U.S. (Atlanta and Tampa) but both are still at the edge of the core and next to the highway.
Forgive the somewhat off-topic and potentially stupid question but is there river boat gambling on the St. John's? Remember, out of towner here.
Nope, you have to get a day cruise out of Mayport, and they go out into international waters.
Quote from: futurejax on June 23, 2009, 10:47:35 PM
Forgive the somewhat off-topic and potentially stupid question but is there river boat gambling on the St. John's? Remember, out of towner here.
There are no stupid questions. I wish there were a game boat on the St. Johns and Ocklawaha, Something like Jacksonville-Palatka-Sanford / Jacksonville-Palatka-Silver Springs-Eustis. That would be most cool and bring back a ton of our own history. The state has bucked every gambling trend since the first missionary's crossed over the border from the Georgia Colony's. Only recently they have been giving ground to the Native American reservation casinos.
Otherwise, we do have cruise ships that run pretty much every day and they open up the tables as soon as their past the legal limits at sea. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 23, 2009, 10:29:37 PM
I, for one, can do without having Ikea or Bass Pro Shops in downtown...and for that matter, both locate near interstate interchanges...Ikea has built very few urban stores in the U.S. (Atlanta and Tampa) but both are still at the edge of the core and next to the highway.
Assuming we might get past the Interstate expressway limits, MLK, Comodore Point Expressway etc might work. But what is your drawback to having magnet stores to possibly jump start downtown retail again. I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet) or a new Convention Center in a better location is going to be the magic bullet. We need something big, HUGE, massive! BOLD! You've really got me on this one... Anyone else have a way to make this happen? We could always open a downtown theme park "Baptist World". OCKLAWAHA
Just build it on where Brooklyn Park was supposed to be. Riverside Ave via Forest is supposed to be the new gateway to downtown. Tens of thousands of workers from the CBD, Southbank, Brooklyn and Five Points could eat cheap meatballs for lunch and then go back when the workday is over to shop.
Easy access to 95 and 10 and better than an empty lot.
Just make it vertical and refrain from a footprint 100 times the size of a Walmart.
Build it with what, city is broke as a bum on the street, and we've seen how they handle business with developers. Peyton is now thinking about increases property taxes. A mall downtown should be the least of our worries. Guys take a look of whats going around you. Downtown is headed no where no time soon. Nice idea, but lets be realistic.
Imo, its not the city's place to get IKEA downtown. Either we are a market for them or we aren't. I also question if it would be a good move, if you're pushing for a walkable urban environment. With the city's budget issues, they need to focus on improving connectivity and mobility in the core to attract economic infill development without being forced to give incentives for every one trick pony that comes along.
I like IKEA as much as the next 20-something home owner but I would be shocked if they built one here in the next twenty years.
Here are a few scaled aerials to add to this discussion:
Asheville, NC Walmart Supercenter
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/572737074_26KXJ-L.jpg)
Jacksonville - Southside & Beach Walmart Supercenter
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/572737097_5LZ4S-L.jpg)
Atlanta IKEA (parking is located under building)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/572737082_F3ca5-L.jpg)
Jacksonville Regency Mall
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/572737091_fNwKY-L.jpg)
Over downtown aerial at same scale
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/572737081_dtmfd-L.jpg)
(http://gothamist.com/images/2004_10_ikearedhook.jpg)
(http://racked.com/uploads/2008_6_ikeawatertaxirun.jpg)
IKEA Red Hook NJ or is this the Shipyards? Hee Hee
Don't sweat the small stuff y'all, nobody said Ikea had to be part of this conversation, merely a suggestion.
I do know that when Oklahoma City built the Canal Walk, they went out and recruited top attractors, which included Bass Pro and TinselTown. They went from a LaVilla like warehouse district to a Main Street USA overnight. Bottom line - IT WORKED.
Why are we collectively locked into this "Can't Do It" think? What I'm suggesting is finish the basic transit and then create a downtown magnet that would draw crowds. What the landing was supposed to do but hasn't, (too small), but what if we bracketed the new Convention Center/Hyatt hotel? Landing on one side - New stuff on the other? Go ahead and toss Brooklyn into the mix. Get aggressive, do something...
I'm not asking you what we CAN'T or SHOULDN'T do, what I'm asking is what COULD we do that would be a certainty?
OCKLAWAHA
I don't think its a can't do issue. I wonder is this the right thing to do for DT and the urban core. Typically, big pony gimmicks don't work well long term in regards to urban sustainability. Personally, I'd like to see this community move away from the big ticket "make or break" items and refocus on connectivity and building the urban community to survive as a self sustaining one. It might not be the sexy thing to attract suburbanites to downtown on the weekends, but if it can happen, a lot of the grand expensive schemes will happen on their own with 100% private sector investment.
^ Agree Lake. LaVilla and Brooklyn are in the shape they are in because of going for the "next big thing".
That said, an emphasis on bringing residential options to the core with either tax incentives or cheap property all while adhereing to a strict urban overlay is paramount. The retail and entertainment will follow.
Don't think we should write off the OKC canal walk so easily, they simply got a couple of these make or break items and tons of mom and pop filled in the gaps. Couldn't we create a similar formula when the government is handing out stimulus bucks? Seems to me we could get parts of such a scheme funded from Washington? Like I said, it doesn't HAVE to be Ikea, but things with the same magnetic attraction, certainly if we approached this from a Walkable-Transit Oriented-Showpiece point we could get a City generator going. Anyone old enough to remember the Landing when it opened? Everyone in town went again and again for the top notch stores... But oops, we forgot the anchors... Oops, forgot parking.... Oops, forgot the Transit.... Oops, forgot we are a metro of 1.2 Million... Oops... Oops...Oops.... Now the whole damn place smells like piss.
OCKLAWAHA
I'd like to see a full-sized IMAX theater downtown, like the one at the World Golf Hall of Fame. The ones at the malls are just converted normal theaters. As more and more action movies are shot with IMAX cameras (e.g. Dark Knight, Transformers 2), I think suburbanites would choose to come downtown on a Friday or Saturday night to catch a flick rather than drive all the way to IGP.
If need be, the theater can be connected to a new (and larger) maritime museum, whose star attraction would be that proposed Navy warship.
An ESPNZone downtown might work as well.
Like the IMAX idea. I have been to the Science Museum in Norfolk. It has an attached IMAX.
How much should the city pay to attract IMAX, an aquarium, IKEA or "fill in the blank project here"? Atlanta's new aquarium was a result of a $200 million donation from a group of Atlanta-based corporations led by Home Depot. Oklahoma City's Bricktown did not occur over night. It was a decade in the making and could only be funded with the city approving a one-cent sales tax in 1993 to pay for it. Furthermore, Bricktown is nice, but from aerials it appears like it is something that focuses in on itself and has limited connectivity with Oklahoma City's neighborhoods to the south and west, due to rail lines and expressways.
Locally, the Mayor has just announced a plan to increase the millage rate by 1.2 mils to help deal with a $65 million dollar budget shortfall next year. Our city has series budget issues. In addition, Jacksonville also suffers from being too spread out. Not only are we spread out sprawl wise, but due to decades of senseless demolition, the urban core as well. No matter how good an individual project may be, if we want true vibrancy we need to find a way to connect our isolated existing destinations, dense neighborhoods and major development sites with something that will spur compact infill walkable development in between them. We have to make it a priority to get the most out of the limited funds we have. We have to use them in a way that pays for improvement, plus spurs additional new development.
We can invest in isolated big ticket projects like Metropolitan Park or hand millions in incentives to build things like aquariums, theaters and department stores, that otherwise would not be viable in our current market. Nevertheless, despite costing taxpayers hundreds of millions to build them, they will still be isolated developments in a spread out urban core.
For example, redeveloping Metropolitan Park won't help the Landing or Downtown business owners. Giving IKEA incentives to come to Brooklyn won't spur redevelopment in the Cathedral District or down Main Street in Springfield. Paying +$100 million for an aquarium at the Shipyards won't send more pedestrians to RAM, Five Points or spur infill housing in LaVilla.
I'm not saying we should not take advantage of one trick ponies when the opportunity comes along, but I am saying that they should not be our top priority for urban redevelopment and revitalization. If we can find a way to spend half the money it would take for a one trick pony to connect our urban districts and major development sites with fixed transit first, the ponies will have a greater chance of success down the road. Those ponies will also have a better chance of being funded by private investment as opposed to needing public incentives to break even.
"I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)"
When you think about it...The Landing almost has a nice toilet seat shape!
Quote from: thelakelander on June 24, 2009, 11:12:31 AM
How much should the city pay to attract IMAX, an aquarium, IKEA or "fill in the blank project here"? Atlanta's new aquarium was a result of a $200 million donation from a group of Atlanta-based corporations led by Home Depot. Oklahoma City's Bricktown did not occur over night. It was a decade in the making and could only be funded with the city approving a one-cent sales tax in 1993 to pay for it. Furthermore, Bricktown is nice, but from aerials it appears like it is something that focuses in on itself and has limited connectivity with Oklahoma City's neighborhoods to the south and west, due to rail lines and expressways.
I'm not saying we should not take advantage of one trick ponies when the opportunity comes along, but I am saying that they should not be our top priority for urban redevelopment and revitalization. If we can find a way to spend half the money it would take for a one trick pony to connect our urban districts and major development sites with fixed transit first, the ponies will have a greater chance of success down the road. Those ponies will also have a better chance of being funded by private investment as opposed to needing public incentives to break even.
Agreed, but now you've brought us back to the lines in my original post, TRANSIT! We must have fixed route attractive transit. Step two is to persue a group of major attractors. Get them into the Transit plans and Riverwalk, McCoys Creekwalk, Hogans Creek redevelopment etc..
I was in OKC when the Bricktown thing went down, BTW, there are no neighborhoods to the South, with or without I-40. This was once a grain loading area and major junction of southwestern rail lines. The old Rock Island Mainline ran west from here to connect with California. When the Rock went belly up in the 1980's miles of OKC became a prairie ruins within a city. If you can imagine the old JEA southbank site when the tracks were still in place stretching for miles and miles, that's what they have to deal with. West of Bricktown is well connected, in the mid 1900's the Santa Fe Railroad was built on a miles long elevated viaduct, all major streets and walkways are bridged, so while it might look like the Great Wall of Oklahoma, it's really quite fluid. OCKLAWAHA
F the malls! Rebuild real buildings in Downtown Jax!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 23, 2009, 11:13:48 PM
I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)
It is in bad shape.
Maybe we can make the Landing look like.....say......this
http://www.harborplace.com/html/
Quote from: 77danj7 on June 24, 2009, 11:40:47 AM
"I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)"
When you think about it...The Landing almost has a nice toilet seat shape!
So what are they using to clean the elevators and toilets in this place? Is it one and the same? Sure smells like it!Quote from: JaxNative68 on June 24, 2009, 11:59:34 AM
F the malls! Rebuild real buildings in Downtown Jax!
We're not talking about building malls in downtown. We are tossing out ideas for things (sometimes found in or around malls) that could go into downtown, as themed, stand alone Transit Development, which would help jump start our city core. It's an exercise in idea creation. Quote from: copperfiend on June 24, 2009, 12:14:15 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 23, 2009, 11:13:48 PM
I don't think a repainted Landing (which is quickly becoming more and more like an outdoor toilet)
It is in bad shape.
I'd love to know who the genius is that designed that 4' walkway between the center stage and the Main Street Bridge? I'm telling you if we ever have a disaster in the west side of the landing the east side will become a killing zone like the infamous Copacabana fire. Somebody knock out that railing and widen that walk! Fire Chief? Are you watching this? OCKLAWAHA
Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Impressive retail developments, large entertainment complexes, inexpensive & plentiful residential complexes will all impact the core in their own right. But the path to urban infill is jobs. The city leaders need to push, push, push for companies to locate their offices downtown. Consider if Merrill Lynch, BofA, and BCBS all had located in downtown Jax? There are over 110,000 daytime office jobs with the Gate Parkway area. ML, BofA, and BCBS all built multi-structure campuses to accomodate their staff. Imagine if they spent those funds downtown, building single high-rises instead. Think Charlotte.
Whats done is done. Moving forward, Jacksonville has a lot going for it: but we need leaders willing to start with the basics and build from scratch. Get more white collar jobs to the core, and with visionary leaders, the rest will fall into place.
Welcome Grange78
Welcome Grange78
Not everything in Charlotte is in Uptown. Charlotte has a ton of jobs in the burbs as well.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/Southpark_aerial_Charlotte_NC.jpg/800px-Southpark_aerial_Charlotte_NC.jpg)
Southpark, an edge city in suburban Charlotte
Nashville is another similar sized city with a vibrant downtown core and major suburban office parks that rival Jax's Gate Parkway area. Franklin, TN comes to mind. After years of discussion, I'm sold that for urban Jax to prosper, implementing a fixed transit system to reconnect the isolated core neighborhoods into one large district is key.
Imagine being able to live in Springfield and work in Riverside without the use of a car. Imagine being able to live in Brooklyn and eat or shop at San Marco Square without the use of a car? Imagine being able to stay in the Cathedral District and visit RAM without a car. What I'm describing is a sustainable urban environment that would be unique to this area and that could not be copied anywhere within the First Coast. An actual vibrant walkable city within Duval County.
Even in DT's current state, it has something like 55,000 office workers within DVI's boundaries. If you include nearby urban districts you can add Shands, St. Vincents, Swisher, FCCJ, EWC and a ton of other major employers to the list. The one good thing urban Jax has going for it is that you don't have to start from scratch. While a significant portion of the core has been demolished, it was so dense at one point that we still have a good set of bones that are in place, alive and kicking. One thing that Charlotte is proving is that those who fill white collar jobs embrace fixed mass transit. Visionary leaders also do as well. Find a way to link the remaining assets the urban core has left, which will help fill in the gaps along those transit spines and the rest will absolutely fall into place.
Grange78, Couldn't agree more, just another concept for this idea catching thread. We all wish the City had done something brilliant to attract those companies into downtown. CSX also has offices all over town, wouldn't a cool 40 floor CSX building look good?
But how?
Incentives are great as far as they go, but they usually come with a clock attached to them and run dry after a few years.
SO?
Excellent fixed route transit draws companies like flies to honey. The Skyway is a start, but not as long as it's known as the local failure to conceive, complete and compete, it won't do. Streetcars have the highest attraction rate. But transit alone won't work unless the whole concept is anchored to parking and release of parking demands on new downtown venues. In other words, build on one of our "garage connected" fixed transit lines, and you don't have to build the 500 space lot provided the employees get transit-garage passes in the deal. Don't think it will work? Look at Charlotte!
Meanwhile we have 4 complete bombed out nuke zones downtown, Brooklyn, La Villa, JEA lot, Shipyards lot, and Ooh! one of them is the most dangerous place on earth! LOL.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: CrysG on June 24, 2009, 12:21:39 PM
Maybe we can make the Landing look like.....say......this
http://www.harborplace.com/html/
it did at one time....and maybe it will again.
Tony Sleiman has done an admirable job just keeping the thing afloat over the last few years....and if he and the City ever work out their differences, some reinvestment will occur.
so much potential, so little progress . . .
I think an aquarium downtown is a fantastic idea. That definitely has more wide spread appeal than an IKEA store. Although, personally I wouldn't mind an IKEA. I also think first on the to do list for downtown should be a grocery store. It's been years since I've been in that old Winn Dixie, but from what I remember it wasn't great. Downtown needs more practical things first, to keep the few who do live downtown--shopping downtown.
They fixed up that old Winn-Dixie about a year ago.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5217-p1110092.JPG)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jun-a-new-look-for-winn-dixie
I still detest that Winn Dixie.... Maybe it's just Winn Dixie in general. I bought some lime juice there the other day and got home and noticed the expiration date was October 16, 2008.... This is just one of the few things Winn Dixie is known for. Give me a Publix or hell even a Super Wally World or Target downtown. It's sad that as a downtown resident we have to drive to Riverside, Philips or Roosevelt just to go to one of those stores. How about even a Walgreens. They build those on 1 out of every 3 corners in Jacksonville it seems.
I'm not a fan of Winn Dixie stores in general but since that one is so close to home I go there there often and it's pretty decent now. Give it a try. Maybe when they get the Hayden Burns library thing going we'll have a better option.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 06, 2009, 10:49:16 PM
They fixed up that old Winn-Dixie about a year ago.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5217-p1110092.JPG)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jun-a-new-look-for-winn-dixie
Ooh, thanks! I'm new to the board so I missed the article. Good to know though!!
lol that's kinda trick photography. But yeah, Winn Dixie is a huge visual improvement over what it used to be. But it's kinda like putting a Ferrari frame on a pinto. At the end of the day, it's still a Pinto.
At the end of the day, its still Winn-Dixie but its nothing like it used to be.
While I'm in total agreement with the connectivity issue - downtown, springfield, brooklyn, etc. I think Ocklawaha's canal deal would be a good idea. I think it would add much needed activity and eventually add synergy.
Quote from: Seraphs on July 09, 2009, 03:25:59 PM
While I'm in total agreement with the connectivity issue - downtown, springfield, brooklyn, etc. I think Ocklawaha's canal deal would be a good idea. I think it would add much needed activity and eventually add synergy.
Got the money for it?
Ideas are free, implementing them is where it is tough!
Quoteso much potential, so little progress . . .
Change the leadership to get better results. Nothing will be done downtown over the next 2 years with Peyton as Mayor. Now is a good time to look for the next mayoral candidates and GRILL them on what they plan to do during the 4 years in office and see how realistic it would be, given the issues of today.
The only way I see an aquarium downtown is if corporate sponsors, as they did in Atlanta, came together and build the thing. Arthur Blank, Home Depot co-founder, gave Atlanta a 250 million dollar grant for the project.
Does anyone see anyone with that kind of pocket change here in Jax?
Fidelity has that kind of money.