Downtown Trolley Bus coming to Five Points
Beginning in January 2008, JTA will connect Downtown to Five Points, via the Downtown trolley bus. Here are the proposed routes, both interim and long term.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/478
i would ride that. they need to have some way to carry a bike though.
I'd ride the shit out of that. Thanks for the coverage.
good to connect Riverside
Connecting BCBS, Fidelity, Everbank, Brooklyn Park, YMCA, Cummer, Memorial Park, Five Points, Riverside Park, etc with the heart of the Northbank with free transit in six months? Yeah, for all the grief we've given JTA with BRT (and will continue to do), connecting Five Points to Downtown with the free trolley is a good idea. Now it will be up to us urbanites, DVI, CVB and JTA to promote it.
I think JTA named the trolleys Magnolia, Sunflower, and Poison Ivy (or whatever it is) because they don't actually have destinations.
The three routes should be, Five Points, Springfield, and San Marco.
Also, they could integrate the central trolley stop into that park they are planning next to the landing.
Sounds like a good idea to me. They need to make sure people know how to use it or they won't.
Quote from: copperfiend on June 25, 2007, 10:35:17 AM
Sounds like a good idea to me. They need to make sure people know how to use it or they won't.
It should be fine, as long as each stop is easily identifiable and contains route information showing the location of various destinations along the way.
Those of us who live in Five Points would also like to see a connection to St. Vincent's Hospital and medical offices, Avondale shopping and the Roosevelt mall. Some of us don't drive (or shouldn't drive ) and still like to get around.
In an ideal world, couldn't JTA have a few overlapping trolley routes that all start off at the Landing (or another frequented downtown terminus) and then fanning out to Riverside (or all the way to Avondale), another one to Southbank and San Marco Square. And another one rolling through Adams and Bay Street downtown? That way one could hop on at Square One, get dropped off at the landing, and take another trolley to 5 points or Bay Street?
In a way, this would be our own mini-"loop" of most popular destinations. One could park anywhere along either of these routes, with quick, regular access to downtown and the nearby neighborhoods.
Any idea how much the trolley costs to run? Does JTA need the service to "pay for itself" to keep it running with some sort of minimum ridership or revenue stream?
Out of curiosity MetJax founders, why the move to a registered message board? Doesn't matter to me either way, but curious to hear if there was a rationale.
Maybe JTA should make all inbound buses from the surrounding inner core neighborhoods to downtown free. Boston does something similar on their green line trolley.
It's a simple change. The driver just tells the passengers getting on not to pay.
What The Hell Are We Thinking?
(http://www.fortnet.org/trolley/images/21_06.jpg)
Fort Collins, Colorado has this...
(http://www.fstm.org/sm224postcard.jpg)
Fort Smith, Arkansas has this...
What is going on here? "I love it", "I'll ride it", "I want it", why are we so quick to not only endorse, but jump aboard JTA's latest scam? You can't see the RAILS for the rubber tires?
This is the biggest snow job, since the Skyway was going to solve all of our problems. If the Citizens of Brooklyn, Riverside, Avondale and these boards don't rise up against this crap, then there really is NO HOPE for our City. They are not "GIVING" you a trolley! They are closing off that street and building that big ol' station with one thing in mind... READ MY WORDS! "BUS RAPID TRANSIT" or BRT! They don't give a damn about spending a couple hundred thousand on a cutesie little "Potato Chip Truck-dressed-as-a-Trolley" to SHUT YOU UP! Guess what? IT IS WORKING! Oh my God, people, Wake the Hell up and smell the Sulfur. Tell JTA to get out of these neighborhoods with their diabolical plans and give us a REAL heritage trolley. Until then, NO to their station! NO to their busway! NO to their Potato Chip Trucks. Please Jacksonville, come to your senses. It's no longer do you want BRT, they have shifted the argument to "Where you want it" and "If it's ALMOST kind of, sort of like a Trolley THEN can we build it?" The answer is still a resounding HELL NO!
(http://www.michigantrolleys.com/common_images/custom/TECUMSEH/t4.jpg)
But in the land of the blind, leading the blind, the fools at JTA have the whole City excited over this? Give me a break!
Sorry Blaylock... PULL YOUR HEAD OUT!
Ocklawaha
Did you guys hear of any plans for the trolley's future in Springfield? Mack Bissette mentioned something about JTA rolling the trolley through Springfield soon.
I asked Mike Miller and he said they were looking into it, but he didn't give a specific date.
Doesn't anyone realize that JTA now has you same opponents of BRT, planning it's routes and stations, cheering them on because it's a "Trolley". Uuuuuhhh? Hello? Where are the tracks? Where are the wires? Why is it on rubber tires? Why does it pollute? All they have done, is slip their so-called "Trolleys" into the BRT lanes and "POOF" they got a BUS LOAD of new "Metro-Jacksonville", planners! I think I'm gonna PUKE! JTA? You haven't heard the last of me yet, I don't buy your shell game... It's agencys like yours that give Mass Transit a bad name! OCKLAWAHA- "BRT? Rubbish! Be gone before someone drops a real Trolley on Jacksonville. "BLAYLOCK-Very well--I'll bide my time--and as for you, Ocklawaha, It's true, I can't attend to you here and now as I'd like, but just try to stay out of my way...just try..." HA! HA! HA!
Ocklawaha
I don't think using existing transit to better connect downtown with it's nearby urban core neighborhoods in the short term is a bad idea. Heck, they don't even have to be potato chip trucks parading around as trolleys. Instead, the same thing can be accomplished with regular city buses labled "free".
The planning of any decent mass transit system takes years and the core doesn't benefit in the short term by not taking advantage of what already exists, but is currently under utilized. Btw, I seriously doubt you'll see BRT lanes ever going into the heart of Five Points or down Riverside Avenue. Riverside/Avondale residents would tar and feather JTA.
I don't think anyone is confusing them for real trolleys. I think everyone here is considering them the same as a bus. The new route would be an improvement over what they are running now, but it's definitely not the final solution.
JTA moving toward trolley service to Riverside-Avondale[/size]
Quoteby Max Marbut
Staff Writer
It’s something that’s been rumored for some time, but the JTA has begun the first steps involved in extending trolley service along Riverside Avenue to 5 Points beginning early next year.
Depending on the results of a survey JTA is conducting of the transportation needs and desires of those who work on Riverside Avenue, the service might be offered as far into the historic district as The Shoppes of Avondale.
According to JTA Director of External Affairs Mike Miller, the route to Riverside will be the first service enhancement and part of a long-range expansion plan that could eventually include trolley routes around Southbank and San Marco as well as Springfield. He said one reason the route has been chosen as the first addition is due to the mixed-use developments that have been approved to break ground along Riverside Avenue between the Acosta Bridge and Forest Street.
“Riverside will be the first leg of a three-phase expansion. It makes sense to begin there because of the public-private partnerships with the Miles Group and Hallmark Partners. Both projects include elements designed to accommodate mass transit options for workers and residents. It’s all part of the new urbanism,†he said.
full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=47862 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=47862)
also in the article....
Quote“It’s all about connectivity and synergy." - JTA Director of External Affairs Mike Miller
sound familiar?
QuoteIt makes sense to begin there because of the public-private partnerships with the Miles Group and Hallmark Partners. Both projects include elements designed to accommodate mass transit options for workers and residents. F T-U
(http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/historicdotphotos/images/gurail.jpg)
Imagine this scene filled with Gillig BRT Buses, or worse, fake Trolleys... Kind of makes you ill does't it? I have no problem with shuttle bus service to any part of the City. The original idea for Public/Private partnership in bus service was something I presented to Ed Muller, Director of JTA, and George Harmon, Jacksonville Journal, back about 1983. (See archive: Jacksonville Journal/ FTU - "Arlington Man keeps coming up with good ideas for transit")
What to watch?
Don't let BRT close roads, create busways in town, under the smoke screen of "It's a Trolley" or "We gave you the Trolley because that IS what you asked for," or "It fit's in with Riverside, Springfield or San Marco."
This is a deception, designed to slip the infrastructure of BRT in, right under our noses.
Quit calling it a "Trolley", it's not even a "Trolley Bus" (which would be electric), It is at best a Shuttle Bus made to look like an Imitation Trolley.
Why?
Because then when the opportunity comes to obtain a REAL trolley, heritage or otherwise, they won't apply or get funding because "We already have Trolleys..."
This is a deceptive word game.
Finally, why does the Skyway have to be elevated in historic Riverside, San Marco or Springfield? Let me remind everyone, it runs on a rail and that rail could be 6" inches off the ground or 60' feet. At interchange terminals bring it down to ground level. Use free transfers. Make cross platform connections a reality. Overall the station appears to fit in well with the local theme, however, why not insist on laying LRT tracks in the drive at the outset? Call it nostalgia, or call it "show your sincerity!"
Your FriendOcklawaha
Regarding the skyway, if dropped to street level, would you be forced to close cross streets? How can it be designed to accomodate at-grade crossings?
Lake, the project I have seen drops pretty fast, I'd say with the hilltop location (above McCoys Creek) over the old Passenger Rail yard, it would take no more effort to drop the line to grade then it did to raise it over the Acosta. I'm not saying keep it down, just bring it down at these major transfer terminals. If it is extended later, bring it right back up and over everything. The added cost of the grade (if any) should more then be made up by the ease of (and thus use of) the transfer facility.
Thanks
Ocklawaha
The good thing about that is, it's already dropped at the Brooklyn maintenance yard. Btw, the new private financed peoplemover in Indianapolis drops in certain spots.
(http://www.sibelle.info/peoplemover/febmare.jpg)
www.sibelle.info/peoplemover/clarpeop.htm (http://www.sibelle.info/peoplemover/clarpeop.htm)
BEWARE THE FACE OF JTA!
(http://www.cswnet.com/~ozarksof/ani/chukwlf1.gif)
Ocklawaha
Anyone see any trollys in Brooklyn yet?
Quote from: Jason on February 21, 2008, 08:46:17 AM
Anyone see any trollys in Brooklyn yet?
Not seen yet.
It would be really nice to have the real trolley system connecting downtown to the nearby neighborhoods but really, my biggest concern is getting cars off the roads. When we went to the public meeting we were told that the "trolley/bus/shuttle" was only designed to bring people in and out of Five Points at lunch time only. The whole system is focused on easing the parking problems for the employees in the highrise buildings when they leave for lunch. Pretty darn short-sighted.
I agree, Springfield, Brooklyn, San Marco, and Riverside need to join together the reestablish Jacksonville's "street car suburbs"
I've seen the buses. I live right at the edge of 5 points. I definitely see this as a plus, a step in the right direction. But, having lived in a city with rail transportation, I don't see this becoming a huge hit simply because it's a bus. Shallow? But it's true. The only reason I don't use the thing is because "it's a bus". The experience isn't the same. and it's vunerable to the same issues that weekens bus ridership already.
Quote from: downtownparks on February 21, 2008, 09:45:42 AM
I agree, Springfield, Brooklyn, San Marco, and Riverside need to join together the reestablish Jacksonville's "street car suburbs"
Any chance St. Nicholous and Ortega on that list.
FIRST let's define what we're talking about here.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/faketrolley.jpg)
This is a fake or FAUX Trolley, it's just a bus, but it's not even built on a bus frame and running gear. It IS built on the same frame as a UPS truck or Bob-Tail POTATO CHIP TRUCK... Attractive isn't it? Would it insult your intelligence to take your date out on an evening "Trolley Tour" on this thing? Just imagine the click clack, and buzz of the motors while you gag on the fumes.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/realtrolley.jpg)
This is a REAL Trolley, it is brand new and serves a mall like our own ST. Johns Town Center, out in California (where sorry, but their not afraid of creative ideas). This is battery powered with a new high tech re-charger built into the pavement at each end of the route. 5 minutes to full charge and it rolls the other direction. Interesting idea, but short on speed or stage length. These are on the market today and one new order is currently headed by the batch to a small Mexican resort town. It will be interesting to see how this holds up in daily transit service. These guys also build monorails and theme park vehicles. This is NOT A PCT or POTATO CHIP TRUCK. It is a REAL TROLLEY...any questions?
While the infrastructure they planned on building for these Faux Trolley (or PCT's as JTA now calls them thanks to MJ) in the original drawings for 5-Points was good as it could be used by a vehicle on tracks at a later date. ANYONE that thinks this thing will gauge the success of a real trolley is deluded. In a few cases they are cute if sorry attempts at a poor copy, sort of like a 3Rd grader playing Abe Lincoln in a school play.
Besides that they're free. The down side is they have a very short life and fairly steep price. We'd be far better off $$ wise buying short REAL transit buses as downtown shuttles. Maybe even use some creativity?
ELECTRIC? TROLLEY (as in overhead electric) BUS? BATTERY BUS? etc... Meanwhile we can push for real Trolleys, which will shatter (I PROMISE) any consultants guess at ridership.
Ocklawaha
Aren't we through with high expectations from this city? Or are we really thinking these plans will go through? Metro Jax for Mayor! *tongue in cheek*
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 24, 2008, 12:01:43 AM
Quote from: downtownparks on February 21, 2008, 09:45:42 AM
I agree, Springfield, Brooklyn, San Marco, and Riverside need to join together the reestablish Jacksonville's "street car suburbs"
Any chance St. Nicholous and Ortega on that list.
St Nicholas maybe, Ortega is a little to far away for early plans, but yes, it would be cool to include many areas.
Ortega would have certain advantages with real streetcar or trolley. The old route of the Jacksonville Traction Company went over the Grand Avenue Bridge then took a right on Baltic to the village. It even went far beyond to Black Point at todays NAS Jax. Sadly they abandoned the base railroad about 20 years ago and with it probably the last segment of the JTCO tracks which they used for freight. For local history buffs, that angled truck gate across from Yukon was the Base Railroad - Trolley entrance until about 1965. Then the entry was shifted to the South end at Ortega Hills Drive, and the North (trolley) leg was taken up. Still much of it soldiered on for another 20 years. The fact that the road through Riverside - Avondale - Fairfax - Ortega is on old railroad right-of-way speaks volumes to the compact soils and the pre-construction crap that could be avoided by using the discarded routes. Another way to spot these routes (such as on Oak south of Five Points) is as the ties settle or rot beneath the pavement, the asphalt will corduroy which makes for an in in in in intrest ing ing ing drive. So bottom line, going to Ortega or Murray Hill would be cheaper then say, down Riverside Avenue, North of 5-Points where Trolleys never rolled.
Where are the Tourists? Well, they won't be here to ride those PCT things. But if we use the PCT shelters and street improvements then cut a tub and insert track, we could use the PCT routes for Trolley.
One needs to also stand back and look at the start of the elevated distributer downtown Our Skyway is dead until at least a "think change" in City Hall. Then perhaps it can be extended just enough to make it a working part of a regional system. Taking the Trolley down Riverside would be counter-productive when the new Skyway station is planned for Brooklyn and hence down Riverside to Blue Cross... Duplication. Look at Park Street. Ditto on going to the stadium. What ends with it's poor dead end spur pointing down Bay Street? The Skyway of course. Just waiting for that station at Hyatt/Newnan, Berkman, Shipyards, etc... So streetcars stay off Bay. Newnan and Beaver and Duval were all streetcar routes so they could be used with the same effect.
Ocklawaha
The new JTA Riverside route is set to start soon. Unlike the free downtown routes, this one will cost 50 cent per ride.
QuoteThe new Riverside Trolley service is set to begin running Monday, May 5, 2008 and you can ride for free. The first two weeks (May 5 â€"May 16) are free to get you used to the plan and get you hooked.
The service is brought to you by the JTA
• to reduce traffic congestion and addresses parking issues
• to connect restaurants, shops and businesses
• to support future Riverside area development
• to address interest from major employers and employees along Riverside Avenue
Features
• operates Monday -Friday from 10:45 am to 2:30 pm
• arrives every 10 minutes
• low cash fare of $.50 each way
• Seniors 60 years or older ride Free
The service comes courtesy of a grant by the FDOT and will fund the service for the first year. We need to have a minimum of ten passengers per hour to keep the service running. That shouldn't be too hard!
see map here: http://riverside-avondale.blogspot.com/2008/03/new-riverside-trolley-ride-free.html
10:45am to 2:30pm??? Who is gonna ride it then? A small crowd for lunch, maybe?
I was hoping that this was a service that would be put in cater for residents. I wish it the best, because a good transit link between Five Points and Downtown is needed, but I'm concerned the limited service time could have a negative effect.
This could probably work, if JTA can deliver on their service. However, there is one thing that I think will be a disaster, and that is the .50 per ride. I'm sure to keep homeless off, but here is the thing. Their minimum is 10 people per hour, or $20 per day. In the cost of running a transit service, is $100 per week revenue really that necessary.
Sometimes I think this city doesn't realize it's not 1980 anymore. Nobody carries quarters, and you know change will be a disaster.
Quote from: stephenc on March 19, 2008, 09:48:15 AM
10:45am to 2:30pm??? Who is gonna ride it then? A small crowd for lunch, maybe?
That's what I asked JTA at the meeting. The thing is if you try to shop or eat in Five Points at noon - good luck. It is a mad house. My guess is that the people who work along Riverside Ave would pay anything to avoid the parking mayhem. JTA is hooking into a sure thing; no risks for them.
Hopefully the line is well recieved and the service is extended to cater to the afterwork crowds. This is a good start.
Well, it took almost a year since we originally reported on the Five Points Trolley, but it is now in place and well received so far.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/TrolleyBusJAX-1.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20Jacksonville%20Modern/RiversideTrolleyMapandSign.jpg)
I found this interesting, but the top map is one I posted long ago on this site for the ground shuttle "PCT Trolleys". I figured this as a phase WITH a completed Skyway system, and streetcar on Water Street. Looking at the map JTA posted, I'd say we are not that far off...Wonder what it cost them to figure this out?
Ocklawaha
This is the same route they had planned to move forward with a year ago. The only difference is they extended the downtown portion a few blocks to the Hyatt and Bay Street. That decision was a very good one, because it helped turn the downtown side into a decent destination, as opposed to the original that circled parking lots off Water Street.
Quote(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1249-riverside-interim-2.jpg)
Interim Option 2 is the route that will start up in January. Before this thing is up and running, let's make sure it directly ties into the Landing (right now it only reaches CSX's headquarters), instead of making the potential lunch crowd walk an extra block. Doing so would increase ridership from the start by directly tying the system at both ends with quality destinations.
full article: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/478