The last few weeks i have noticed more and more vagrants hanging around next to the old premier grocery store on Hubbard, The crowd was up to 20 yesterday. I stopped and cleaned the area up earlier today, I picked up all the coda crates that they where using for chairs ::) well as of 30 minutes ago there was no one there. So if any of you drive by there stop and pick up there chairs ;D
The number of homeless/vagrants in downtown and Springfield is getting out of control. I had a meeting downtown this morning and driving down main at 7:30am is like driving through an obstacle course. There were upwards of 30-40 people, mostly men, sitting on the curb, planters, benches all along main near the shell station and beyond. They were crossing in the middle of street, some just hanging out in the street. Cars were swerving, stepping on their brakes. It was hot so their shirts were off, backpacks sitting everywhere. That main street pocket park was getting some use! Is this seriously how we want people to view our downtown? I thought I had a pretty high tolerance, but it's starting to really bother me. This isn't urban living, this is something completely different. Adam are you reading this? Help, Please!!!! It was never this bad when I lived downtown less than a year ago. I live in Springfield now and yesterday morning I walked out the door to find a half naked drunk passed out on the bench. I've started calling the JSO non-number and they are soon going to know me by name. This is really beyond ridiculous.
My wife and I have been calling JSO about the 8Th and hubbard corner for about 6 months. What we need is a JSO sub-station on 8Th, Hell I'll supply the coffee and donuts.
Right on samiam! We have lots of empty storefronts that can be reused.
This is very tue. The crowds that gather in the morning at Main and Union is getting out of control. They throw their garbage everywhere and are making a mess. What a great entry to Downtown for those of us coming from the north. Something has got to be done about this. Every afternoon the same thing occurs all along Union St near the transit station and the homeless shelters, there are people lying all over the place, leaving all their garbage behind. Please City help do something about this.
Quote from: brainstormer on June 16, 2009, 10:26:56 PM
There were upwards of 30-40 people, mostly men, sitting on the curb, planters, benches all along main near the shell station and beyond.
this has been going on forever. I drive that way every day, for the last 10 years, and its always like that and the city doesn't do anything about it. Its always full of trash there and there are even guys who stake out the pumps in the event you are unlucky enough to have to get some gas. The trash situation is out of control, most of it is swept down the storm drain thats right there near the corner, I guess as long as the medians are mowed and there's no trash in Ortega, things are great in Jacksontucky. Maybe thats why they needed a new stormwater fee to pick all the trash out of the storm drains! because there aren't enough garbage cans around. Makes sense now.
You'd think the Riverkeeper would have an interest in the downtown vagrant/trash problem -- it all goes into the storm drains and right into the St. Johns. Just another fine example of Jacksonville taking care of its assets.
it is the mentality of the city management. There is no encouragement /incentive from the city to get for profit business to downtown. It is loaded with homeless services. Then the homeless come to aggregate at where the service is. Then more homeless service is justified to service them. It is like the wall street of homeless.
IMHO, this is what needs to be done:
1. Discourage downtown homeless service. For example, remove the property tax exemption, raise the garbage and storm water fee. Let's be honest, the homeless service generate more garbage than average household or business and definitely cause more drainage problem.
2. Aggressively recruiting revenue generating business from out of state.
3. Collect the homeless from street and send them to the county/state they are from and bill to the county/ state they are from.
if we do not solve our homeless problem now, all the other states will ship their homeless to us.
I agree with the above posters, the vagrant problem is out of control downtown. Please, anyone from the city who is reading this, something must be done. We cannot continue to be the homeless welcome wagon we have become. We have all heard and read the stories about homeless persons being sent here or coming here because we are an easy city to be homeless in. To the social service providers, you too need to stop perpetuating the myth that these people are all from Jacksonville. We have all talked to them, read their stories in the TU and Folio, heard their stories relayed by friends on the police force and in health care professions and know that is not the case. Everyone feels for the individuals or families who have become homeless due to loss of jobs or health issues. You are hurting the cause of the truly deserving by continuing to lump the people who are in need of a "hand up" in with criminals, addicts, street people, bums, backpack men or whatever you want to call them. The face of the homeless has changed from families who have fallen through the cracks to lazy drunks hanging out all day, urinating in public and hassling people for money. IMO we need to quit funding organizations that enable this behavior by handing out food and clothing with no real hope of changing the way these people live. We need to take that same funding and spend it on programs that treat addictions and train people to enter the workforce. I know I will get the same old whining that there is not enough money so I will offer what seems to me a few simple solutions.
1) Determine who each individual is. Enable them to get ID, lost birth certificates, social security cards etc. Anyone requesting service must comply with this and allow the information to be passed on to law enforcement. This will enable those wanting help to get back into society and separate the criminals from the rest of the population.
2) Determine where each individual has come from. The social service providers like to tell us that the majority are from Jacksonville but I find that hard to believe. Say for example someone on the street states they have lived in Jacksonville 10 years. Have they been employed or had housing during that time or did they come to Jax from Ohio and been homeless using our services for ten years?
3) After setting guidelines on what residency is, put those who are not from here on a one way bus, train or plane ride to their place of birth. It might sound cold but realistically it is almost impossible to take care of our own city's social problems without carrying the burden of other areas.
4) Do not allow people to "line up" at shelters early in order to get a bed. That makes it almost impossible to work and be back by the 3 o'clock time which is quoted by the street people. If the shelter wants to let people in for dinner fine but people who work or who have looked for a job during the day should have first rights to a bed. Same goes for showers, there should not be set times. If someone needs to be at work before the set shower time how can they be prepared for their job? Right now the way the system is set up people are not incentivised to work. That needs to be changed to reward those who are working or getting the help they need to become self sufficient.
5) People who sleep at a shelter should not be thrown out on the street during the day. There should be help resources and job training available to them. They should have use of phones and computers so they can reconnect with family and work toward getting their lives back on track.
I do not claim to know how to solve this complex problem but I do know that what we are doing now is not working. By using some of the common sense solutions above we might be able to reduce the numbers and concentrate on truly helping some people.
Well, I find the amazing thing about 'some' of those 'vagrants' is, they are to unsightly to line the vacant lots or parks, but not to unsightly to do 'the odd jobs' at the more blessed individuals in our neighborhood! (to pitiful to look at, but not so to do your labor?) Then again, maybe you were just offering a helping hand.
Quote from: brainstormer on June 16, 2009, 10:26:56 PM
The number of homeless/vagrants in downtown and Springfield is getting out of control. I had a meeting downtown this morning and driving down main at 7:30am is like driving through an obstacle course. There were upwards of 30-40 people, mostly men, sitting on the curb, planters, benches all along main near the shell station and beyond. They were crossing in the middle of street, some just hanging out in the street. Cars were swerving, stepping on their brakes. It was hot so their shirts were off, backpacks sitting everywhere. That main street pocket park was getting some use! Is this seriously how we want people to view our downtown? I thought I had a pretty high tolerance, but it's starting to really bother me. This isn't urban living, this is something completely different. Adam are you reading this? Help, Please!!!! It was never this bad when I lived downtown less than a year ago. I live in Springfield now and yesterday morning I walked out the door to find a half naked drunk passed out on the bench. I've started calling the JSO non-number and they are soon going to know me by name. This is really beyond ridiculous.
Well as far as the guys sitting along Main & Union(Shell station)...they are actually waiting for the day labor vans to pick them up. The owners of the shell station don't want them hanging in the parking lot in the mornings....although the store wouldn't be in business if it wasn't for those guys. Now the half-naked drunk....that's another story :o!
QuoteWell, I find the amazing thing about 'some' of those 'vagrants' is, they are to unsightly to line the vacant lots or parks, but not to unsightly to do 'the odd jobs' at the more blessed individuals in our neighborhood! (to pitiful to look at, but not so to do your labor?) Then again, maybe you were just offering a helping hand.
Welcome to the forum just_chi! It is a time honored tradition to offer folks out of work with odd jobs in order to help them out. Many are eager for the opportunity... :)
Quote from: brainstormer on June 16, 2009, 10:26:56 PM
The number of homeless/vagrants in downtown and Springfield is getting out of control. I had a meeting downtown this morning and driving down main at 7:30am is like driving through an obstacle course. There were upwards of 30-40 people, mostly men, sitting on the curb, planters, benches all along main near the shell station and beyond. They were crossing in the middle of street, some just hanging out in the street. Cars were swerving, stepping on their brakes. It was hot so their shirts were off, backpacks sitting everywhere. That main street pocket park was getting some use! Is this seriously how we want people to view our downtown? I thought I had a pretty high tolerance, but it's starting to really bother me. This isn't urban living, this is something completely different. Adam are you reading this? Help, Please!!!! It was never this bad when I lived downtown less than a year ago. I live in Springfield now and yesterday morning I walked out the door to find a half naked drunk passed out on the bench. I've started calling the JSO non-number and they are soon going to know me by name. This is really beyond ridiculous.
I'm an advocate for the homeless, but there has got to be a place where the homeless and needy can go and hang out during the day; if there is not, then the City needs to build such a place.
Don't blame them 100%, most just don't have no place to go and with the economy the way it is, there is very little day labor to keep them busy, and there certainly are no good places they can hang out. Would be good if the City had what we have in Bradenton and Sarasota, a kind of "Day Care" (that's what I call it) where they can get a shower, get a locker, hang outside and eat lunch, get their clothes cleaned, get food/clothes, bus passes, and anything else they might need.
It's not good for them to be hanging out in public anyway with all the killings, bashings, and torturing of the homeless that's going on nationwide.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Springfield Girl on June 17, 2009, 11:06:13 AM
I agree with the above posters, the vagrant problem is out of control downtown. Please, anyone from the city who is reading this, something must be done. We cannot continue to be the homeless welcome wagon we have become. We have all heard and read the stories about homeless persons being sent here or coming here because we are an easy city to be homeless in. To the social service providers, you too need to stop perpetuating the myth that these people are all from Jacksonville. We have all talked to them, read their stories in the TU and Folio, heard their stories relayed by friends on the police force and in health care professions and know that is not the case. Everyone feels for the individuals or families who have become homeless due to loss of jobs or health issues. You are hurting the cause of the truly deserving by continuing to lump the people who are in need of a "hand up" in with criminals, addicts, street people, bums, backpack men or whatever you want to call them. The face of the homeless has changed from families who have fallen through the cracks to lazy drunks hanging out all day, urinating in public and hassling people for money. IMO we need to quit funding organizations that enable this behavior by handing out food and clothing with no real hope of changing the way these people live. We need to take that same funding and spend it on programs that treat addictions and train people to enter the workforce. I know I will get the same old whining that there is not enough money so I will offer what seems to me a few simple solutions.
1) Determine who each individual is. Enable them to get ID, lost birth certificates, social security cards etc. Anyone requesting service must comply with this and allow the information to be passed on to law enforcement. This will enable those wanting help to get back into society and separate the criminals from the rest of the population.
2) Determine where each individual has come from. The social service providers like to tell us that the majority are from Jacksonville but I find that hard to believe. Say for example someone on the street states they have lived in Jacksonville 10 years. Have they been employed or had housing during that time or did they come to Jax from Ohio and been homeless using our services for ten years?
3) After setting guidelines on what residency is, put those who are not from here on a one way bus, train or plane ride to their place of birth. It might sound cold but realistically it is almost impossible to take care of our own city's social problems without carrying the burden of other areas.
4) Do not allow people to "line up" at shelters early in order to get a bed. That makes it almost impossible to work and be back by the 3 o'clock time which is quoted by the street people. If the shelter wants to let people in for dinner fine but people who work or who have looked for a job during the day should have first rights to a bed. Same goes for showers, there should not be set times. If someone needs to be at work before the set shower time how can they be prepared for their job? Right now the way the system is set up people are not insentivised to work. That needs to be changed to reward those who are working or getting the help they need to become self sufficient.
5) People who sleep at a shelter should not be thrown out on the street during the day. There should be help resources and job training available to them. They should have use of phones and computers so they can reconnect with family and work toward getting their lives back on track.
I do not claim to know how to solve this complex problem but I do know that what we are doing now is not working. By using some of the common sense solutions above we might be able to reduce the numbers and concentrate on truly helping some people.
Although your concerns are valid "Springfield Girl," they are only temporary band aids. The help they need goes much deeper and more intense than just food, clothing, shelter, ID cards, clean clothes, etc.
As an Executive Director of a social agency, I can tell you what is needed if you will privately email, IM, or PM me.
garry_777_2000@yahoo.com, or use the email in this forum to contact me.
Heights Unknown
Quotebut there has got to be a place where the homeless and needy can go and hang out during the day;
I'm pretty sure Jax already has a few of those places. We don't need any more. Its part of the reason we have so many homeless here in the first place.
Quotethere really isnt a place for the homeless to go during the day or shower or use the bathroom
I'm pretty sure the Sulzbacher Center has bathrooms. I think they have showers too.
Quote from: cline on June 17, 2009, 01:48:40 PM
Quotebut there has got to be a place where the homeless and needy can go and hang out during the day;
I'm pretty sure Jax already has a few of those places. We don't need any more. Its part of the reason we have so many homeless here in the first place.
We need as many of them, or one large facility if you will, preferrably out and away from the core (public and government preference). They are not going to go away people short of someone initiating genocide or extermination in which I am almost prone to believe this is what everyone wants; so we'd better spend the dollars and build the facilities to take care of them, but as I stated in a previous post, band aid fixes, i.e. temporary help like food, clothing, etc. is not the answer; it goes more deeper and more intense (the problems that plague the homeless) than that.
Heights Unknown
I don't want people to think I am against all social services, but the current state of services aren't working. It isn't efficient, and we are playing into people's stereotypes. I don't have the answers, but we need to start the conversation, and we know band-aids only go so far. We have tons of band-aids in education as well, and they fail just as often.
Heights, do you have any insight as to why Jacksonville seems to be the "place to go, when you're down on your luck?" I understand more so during the winter months, but during the hot summer...the numbers are continuing to increase and they aren't locals needing our help. I remember when I lived in the Carling, I was always getting into conversations with homeless people who weren't from Jacksonville. Why is this? What makes us different than other big cities?
Quotedo you have any insight as to why Jacksonville seems to be the "place to go, when you're down on your luck?"
Simple, brainstormer.
Jacksonville is homeless friendly! Here you can get 3 squares free, a bed, a fine $100 million library in which to shower and go to the bathroom, free healthcare choice, and a wonderful park/river view; all with no accountability required, and all within a centralized area.
Much of Jacksonville's citizenry is kind and sympathetic, giving charitably to the non-profit orgs that keep growing their rolls, and even employing vagrants at odd jobs to help them out.
They are rarely asked to hop a bus, pick up their trash, get off a bench, and only occasionally told to "buzz off" when they panhandle.
All Jax needs to do to make itself more homeless friendly is build these folks a nice place to hang out during the day (maybe even better than the Library and Hemming Plaza!), where they can watch tv, use the computers, use the phones and find other ways to make connections with those who feed their vices, all thanks to the generosity of the working class...
WAKE UP JACKSONVILLE!
The homeless are here and they can't go anywhere. More are coming. Some will be from other cities hoping for a new and better start, some will come for what they can get and many will come from just down the road, may be even a neighbor. Like any group, some will be hard working, some will not, some will be good people, some will not...pretty much just like the people who post on this forum.
Yeah, WAKE UP JACKSONVILLE. There have been some good posts here...we need more services that make more sense and address all the needs of the homeless, not just applying a band aide. We need a day center. We need a way to find them work. We need consistent ways to get them ID's, the medical help they need and some will need permanent assisted living facilities including a way to pay for it. All of that costs money, and not all that much is available. More than anything else, we need people who have a heart and actually can think and apply common sense.
A couple of quotes from another thread that apply here:
Yaron Brook on the welfare state:
QuoteEconomic crises and runaway government power grabs don't just happen by themselves; they are the product of the philosophical ideas prevalent in a society -- particularly its dominant moral ideas.
Why do we accept the budget-busting costs of a welfare state? Because it implements the moral ideal of self-sacrifice to the needy. Why do so few protest the endless regulatory burdens placed on businessmen? Because businessmen are pursuing their self-interest, which we have been taught is dangerous and immoral. Why did the government go on a crusade to promote "affordable housing," which meant forcing banks to make loans to unqualified home buyers? Because we believe people need to be homeowners, whether or not they can afford to pay for houses.
The message is always the same: "Selfishness is evil; sacrifice for the needs of others is good."
I'm sick to death of the wolves in sheeps' clothing using this prevalent moral ideal to justify their jobs. In other words, they have figured out how to marry two opposing tenets -- those of sacrifice to others and self-preservation (and in many cases, greed). This turns my stomach, and there are too many of this kind in Jacksonville, and in Springfield.
Here's a quote on how this affects our Downtown neighborhoods -- keep in mind, a weak core weakens the entire NEFL region.
QuoteIt's a real shame, because it's akin to municipal suicide. Downtowns are zoned for the most dense, most taxable development. In a true free-market scenario, downtowns would probably be the site of the most expensive and exclusive real estate in any given city. But if you have a bunch of short-sighted, governement subsidized do-gooders enabling the drunks and druggies, no one in their right mind will want to invest there. And that's exactly what has happened.
And also from the "How important is the core?" thread, my last word with the Heights and Striders on the subject (I anticipate their response so they can have the last word):
QuoteI'm not heartless, and I know there are populations who have need because they are not capable of contributing including children, the elderly, and the mentally and physically disabled (although some are certainly capable of working).
Maybe a line needs to be drawn about what is needy and what isn't? I'm living in the middle of a ground-zero comparison of social solutions that are working and those that aren't. I see the 4 populations mentioned being used by the capable, and the definition of "need" growing out of control to include those who just don't want to contribute.
I don't and won't support "charity" anymore, but I will keep giving to groups that provide solutions with accountability for results. And good job yanking the crate seating! Without the loiterers, the piles of trash won't reappear after being picked up (by others paying for it).
Springfield Girl has some great reasonable points, so I guess we won't be adopting them here.
As other posters have indicated, we do need a place where they can go during the day. Maybe workshops to teach them marketable skills or literacy if their educational background is worse.
QuoteWell, I find the amazing thing about 'some' of those 'vagrants' is, they are to unsightly to line the vacant lots or parks, but not to unsightly to do 'the odd jobs' at the more blessed individuals in our neighborhood! (to pitiful to look at, but not so to do your labor?) Then again, maybe you were just offering a helping hand.
I never ever give them odd jobs around my yard, it just encourages them to remain here. If there's work they'll come around, if there's no work they'll go elsewhere. (This pertains to those who do want work).
I have to maneuver my bike through that Shell station crap every morning. I've seen a lot of new faces since the downturn. If the city is listening, f**ing do something. Cite people for littering, come down hard on the owner, check for alcohol and public drunkenness, cite people for loitering, harass them until they stop hanging around, create a job center where they can wait inside in air-conditioning for work (seriously, that's what other municipalities do to stop this behavior).
Quote from: zoo on June 18, 2009, 08:25:14 AM
A couple of quotes from another thread that apply here:
Yaron Brook on the welfare state:
QuoteEconomic crises and runaway government power grabs don't just happen by themselves; they are the product of the philosophical ideas prevalent in a society -- particularly its dominant moral ideas.
Why do we accept the budget-busting costs of a welfare state? Because it implements the moral ideal of self-sacrifice to the needy. Why do so few protest the endless regulatory burdens placed on businessmen? Because businessmen are pursuing their self-interest, which we have been taught is dangerous and immoral. Why did the government go on a crusade to promote "affordable housing," which meant forcing banks to make loans to unqualified home buyers? Because we believe people need to be homeowners, whether or not they can afford to pay for houses.
The message is always the same: "Selfishness is evil; sacrifice for the needs of others is good."
I'm sick to death of the wolves in sheeps' clothing using this prevalent moral ideal to justify their jobs. In other words, they have figured out how to marry two opposing tenets -- those of sacrifice to others and self-preservation (and in many cases, greed). This turns my stomach, and there are too many of this kind in Jacksonville, and in Springfield.
And I'm sick to death of those who seem to forget that the ones that truly made money with those "forced loans to unqualified home buyers" are the bankers and the stock holders. Do you honestly believe that any law "forcing" the bankers to loan money would have gotten passed if the bankers did not know they would make a ton of money from it? It was greed alright, but on the part of those who made the money, not the government. And certainly not the service providers who get to deal with the poor once the rich bankers got done with them. This is nothing but someone looking for someone to blame for their troubles and finding once again that the poor and homeless are easy targets.
These comments you have quoted, Zoo, are indeed all about greed and have nothing to do with "Selfishness is evil; sacrifice for the needs of others is good" or whether anyone believes that.
Here's a quote on how this affects our Downtown neighborhoods -- keep in mind, a weak core weakens the entire NEFL region.
QuoteIt's a real shame, because it's akin to municipal suicide. Downtowns are zoned for the most dense, most taxable development. In a true free-market scenario, downtowns would probably be the site of the most expensive and exclusive real estate in any given city. But if you have a bunch of short-sighted, governement subsidized do-gooders enabling the drunks and druggies, no one in their right mind will want to invest there. And that's exactly what has happened.
And again, who is saying this? Is it the same people who fled these all important urban cores? And left them to the poor, who are often the first to be victims of drug issues and also the first to be blamed for the "normal people's" problems. Here's a question: where the downtowns zoned for "the most dense, most taxable development" before the time of "white flight" (society's name for it, not mine.)? Or did politicians figure out that they could tax the urban cores and make money from it once they were turned over to the poor who didn't have a loud enough voice? Let us also not forget that the poor, the homeless and all those service providers were in a downtown that just about everyone else left and forgotten about. Now that "you" want it back, they must go and they must be bad?
And also from the "How important is the core?" thread, my last word with the Heights and Striders on the subject (I anticipate their response so they can have the last word):
QuoteI'm not heartless, and I know there are populations who have need because they are not capable of contributing including children, the elderly, and the mentally and physically disabled (although some are certainly capable of working).
Maybe a line needs to be drawn about what is needy and what isn't? I'm living in the middle of a ground-zero comparison of social solutions that are working and those that aren't. I see the 4 populations mentioned being used by the capable, and the definition of "need" growing out of control to include those who just don't want to contribute.
I don't and won't support "charity" anymore, but I will keep giving to groups that provide solutions with accountability for results. And good job yanking the crate seating! Without the loiterers, the piles of trash won't reappear after being picked up (by others paying for it).
I do agree that much of what has been done in the past has not helped the long term problem. But before real solutions to this problem can be formed and put into place, the people who live in the urban core and are against the service providers must start using common sense in their arguments and recognize that the homeless and the poor are here and the numbers are growing. Society does indeed share the fault and therefore the burden of these people. The solutions are not going to be easy nor are they going to be cheap. But I have yet to hear any truly valid arguments for not having the service providers were they are and not building additional facilities here as long as the mission of those service providers makes more sense. The homeless and the poor were left the urban core and this is where it is best to help them. Recognize that the homeless, the poor and the service providers were all here long before many of you decided the urban core was the new place to be. They are going to be somewhere and you are just going to have to recognize that you decided to live where they are; they did not come to you, rather, you came to them.
I lived in Boston for more than a decade and visited SFO many times. Boston does not have the homeless crowded downtown, even in the best weather. I do not recall seeing any homeless sun tanning themselves topless at the park in Boston.
SFO has very clean downtown and beach. Occasionally, I do see panhandlers in SFO. However, panhandlers in SFO are not as aggressive or persistent as JAX. In fact, I see more "please do not encourage panhandler" signs than panhandlers in SFO.
I have traveled more than a few dozens of metropolitan so far, and JAX is absolutely worst I have experienced. I have also spend many hours talk to every single panhandler come my way either ask for money or as for work, out of about one hundred or so people, ZERO of them was from JAX.
The suggestions made by Springfield girl is great and let's build up from those good suggestions instead of beat it down.
Atlanta is worse. I got hassled by 6 guys in 3 hours in various parts of downtown ATL.
This is absolutely true:
just about half an hour ago I was driving down a semi-busy street towards downtown. An old "lady" is sitting on the side walk step doing a "Sharon Stone" next to a store front.