QuoteTrain depot restoration considered
By KATI BEXLEY | More by this reporter | kati.bexley@staugustine.com | Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 ; Updated: 12:34 AM on Monday, June 8, 2009
City commissioners will review today a nearly $2 million plan to restore a late 1800s building that was St. Augustine's first train depot.
City staff hired architect Dave Mancino to research the history and restoration of the building located on San Marco Avenue. The building, adjacent to the main branch of the St. Johns County Public Library System, is closed because it is so dilapidated.
Mancino is recommending the city restore the brick building to its orginal 1883-1885 style, which could cost between $1.2 million and $1.8 million, according to city staff. The building also once was the North City Waterworks Building.
Mancino is proposing the building become a community center with a large hall, a side terrace and an addition in the back for restrooms and a catering kitchen.
The commission will also discuss a couple of controversial topics in today's meeting, including a resolution requiring all new construction in two downtown historic areas to be Spanish or British colonial architecture.
This measure would replace a 2003 resolution allowing new buildings in those areas to be any architectural style that is similar to adjacent or nearby homes.
This resolution could also affect another agenda item -- a proposed boutique hotel to be built at 180 St. George St. that is up for final approval from the commission.
Architect Don Crichlow, also a city commissioner, designed a re-creation of the old brick Bishop Building that stood at 180 St. George St. and Cathedral Place until it was torn down in the 1960s.
The project has been criticized for its modernistic look.
Source: http://www.staugustine.com/stories/060809/news_060809_040.shtml
Do you train gurus know anything about St. Augustine's railroad and streetcar history?
Here is a photo of the station:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/498498056_k55RV-M.jpg)
Quote from: Jason on June 11, 2009, 02:40:48 PM
Do you train gurus know anything about St. Augustine's railroad and streetcar history?
Ock knows a ton. We took images for a St. Augustine railroad article a little while ago. We're just waiting for the text to go with it.
The image above is one of the last station, which is where San Marco Avenue meets US 1. The station mentioned in this article is the one just north of the merry-go-round.
I was looking for the image above on the maps around the Library and couldn't find it. Plus it doesn't look like turn of the century architecture either. :)
Thanks for clearing that up Lake.
The depot mentioned in the article must be the small building between the Library and the Armory. If so that is a pretty small train station. I wonder where the tracks cam in and how far they went?
The T. Gregory Imports building on Dismukes St. (a block north of the Library) actually looks more like that of an old train station, especially because of the angle it sits at with relation to the tracks and US-1. a short spur could have easily branched off and terminated in front of the long building.
Quote from: Jason on June 11, 2009, 02:40:48 PM
Do you train gurus know anything about St. Augustine's railroad and streetcar history?
Silly question! Ha! Ha!
(http://goflorida.about.com/library/graphics/fecrailwaystation-staug.jpg)
This is the older station but still not the 1880s version. This depot has been RECONSTRUCTED pretty close to the same identical lines, by the St. Augustine Fire Department, in it's ORIGINAL location right off US-1. All they did was change the pillars a bit, and add the fire truck house behind the depot. If you stop to visit, they are very kind and have a nice marker on the wall telling the story. From the front porch the restored FEC park is just as it would have looked to winter visitors stepping off the train in 1925.
This photo is not the 1880's station, it is in fact the 1960's prototype for all of the stations on the FEC. Sadly the strike hit just a couple of years after it was complete and the railroad built by the passenger train went FREIGHT ONLY. The Florida Public Utilities Commission stuck Ed Ball's feet in the fire and told him, if he wanted to keep the charter, he WOULD run passenger trains. Ball might have been the meanest SOB on the planet, but he could also be a class act. He restarted the passenger trains which typically were a single engine, coach and a FIRST CLASS, round end Tavern Lounge Observation Car. Trains #1 and #2 ran for another 4 years or so until the case went to the higher courts and the train came back off. Almost overnight the whole railroad did a house cleaning and EVERY depot was torn down except for an isolated few that could be leased. I well remember South Jacksonville, Yelvington, Ormond, New Smyrna Beach and Daytona Beaches beautiful Spanish arched, court yard like station. Daytona was the last to go lasting until about 1990. One day there was a historic station and the NEXT day a lumber yard!
Wonder what would have happened had the depots all been completed. The day of the last train I sat on the bench for hours in the courtyard in your photograph, the station agent had given me sacks of anything not nailed down. Later they shifted the mainline from alongside US-1 to a location behind the massive old shops that once stood north of this depot. Miller Shops rivaled the famous Beech Grove, or Altoona, in sheer size and impression.
This depot is still accessable, there would need to be a new passenger track to spin off the mainline behind the adjacent strip mall, loop past the Cell Tower? and curve back south to rejoin the mainline south of the station. Otherwise, from my snooping around and talking to FEC folks, it really seems like they just locked the doors yesterday... God I miss those days.
(http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/historicdotphotos/images/stjohntoll.jpg)
The St. Augustine and South Beach Railway, and the St. Augustine and North Beach Railway, both served as the City's horse car trolley lines. Both seem to have been toll bridge operators as well. The South Beach bridge was just South of the Bridge of the Lions and accounts for all the piles in the river on the West side by the Seafood Place.
Later the companies consolidated, the St. Johns Electric Railway took over and expanded up King into West St. Augustine, operations continued to both beaches using most all of the current older boulevards in the historic part of town.
It was an early victim of the automobile and a warning to Jacksonville Traction Comapny when it sold out to a "city bus line" and shut down the streetcars. An early visionary fought like hell to keep it preaching that it would someday become a unique attraction... As usual, Florida didn't listen... If I find his name, I'll post it somewhere... (Yes I know, and NO! I'm not THAT OLD ... YET!)
Is the fire station you speak of the one right next to the FEC building?
And I assume Bridge St. is where the old South Beach bridge extended from?
Yes, next to the Flagler College, former FEC offices, next building NORTH.
Forgive me for not knowing the proper site-citing here, but...
http://www.drbronsontours.com/bronsonunionrailwaystation.html
Ock, is this what you were talking about?
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/prints/pr09214.jpg)
An OCKLA-SHOT of the new depot about 1960
Beautiful find Cliffs-Daughter! Yes, this is the depot. In your photo the little barn like building was for the railroads private cars/office and business. There was once a platform that ran along the west side of the current parking lot with 2 or 3 tracks serving it. These were the remains of the old depot days and were kept in use up through about 1963. Millionaires visiting town would have their own PV's (private varnish = Private railroad cars = so called because in the older wooden car [wild wild west movie or show] days the cars used GOLD LEAF and layers of sparkling varnish).
Your view looks South toward the office building. The station and tracks now long gone, replaced by the new depot about a mile north. The PARK is still in place and so is the fountain. St. Augustine/St. Johns County did a banner job of preservation and careful reconstruction. Laurels to whoever thought up the reconstruction of such a historic station for the fire department. EVERYONE should make a stop and go read the marker and take a few photos... Show our "leaders" that we really do give a damn about where we come from.
OCKLAWAHA
So is the original depot in question (supposedly sitting adjacent the library) in fact the small structure by the armory.
I won't answer that Jason until I do some more snooping around, if it is indeed the "DEPOT" then it would pre-date the 1880's, meaning it could be the oldest standing railroad station in the NATION! The St. Johns Railway ran from Tocoi Landing to St. Augustine (1829 early 1900's) and terminated in that area. The Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River (NARROW GAUGE RAILROAD) from JAX to ST AUGUSTINE, also predates Flagler. We need to find out which company built it.
OCKLAWAHA
From what I understand, the Tocoi Landing line ran from Tocoi (at the river) along what is now CR 214 (my street) and joined up with the still existing Hastings line (now a shortline) that crosses and then parallels W. King Street connecting to FEC.
"Ball might have been the meanest SOB on the planet, but he could also be a class act. He restarted the passenger trains which typically were a single engine, coach and a FIRST CLASS, round end Tavern Lounge Observation Car. Trains #1 and #2 ran for another 4 years or so until the case went to the higher courts and the train came back off. Almost overnight the whole railroad did a house cleaning and EVERY depot was torn down except for an isolated few that could be leased. I well remember South Jacksonville, Yelvington, Ormond, New Smyrna Beach and Daytona Beaches beautiful Spanish arched, court yard like station."
Ball was indeed an SOB and a stubborn one! He used to say that he had offices full of lawyers and he needed to keep them busy. He was involved in lawsuits that went on for YEARS into higher and higher courts. He even got the Waculla River closed to public access.
He stopped passenger service because he would have had to give in to the union to abide by Federal regulations and he would not do that. He was determined to win the strike and he did! As soon as a Federal District court overturned the Fla. Public Service Commission ruling about passenger service, he tore down all of the depots so that if he lost the legal fight at the next level, he wouldn't have the infrastructure necessary to renew it. Although he was born in Indiana or Illinois he always said that he was the last of the true Southern Gentlemen which "means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when I need to be." His favorite toast (in straight Jack Daniels whiskey) was "confusion to the enemy."
Hi Speed Rail to St. Augustine, I am on BOARD!!! Whooooohooooo!
Ball was an SOB who threw the railroad into BK to kill off the unions. I don't like unions, but this guy worked to kill off the growth of the company when many who were non-union needed the rr. Today, he would not even he suitable to carry baggage for Amtrak.
QuoteAs soon as a Federal District court overturned the Fla. Public Service Commission ruling about passenger service, he tore down all of the depots so that if he lost the legal fight at the next level, he wouldn't have the infrastructure necessary to renew it.
Why did Ball keep the St. Augustine station?
QuoteCity to shore up collapsing depot
City commission looking for $2M to fix Flagler-era railroad building
By PETER GUINTA | More by this reporter | peter.guinta@staugustine.com | Posted: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 ; Updated: 9:12 PM on Tuesday, June 16, 2009
The Flagler-era railroad depot at 184 San Marco Ave. is "structurally unstable and in imminent danger of collapse," St. Augustine architect Dave Mancino told the city commission this week.
As a result of Mancino's report, the commissioners said they intend to preserve the building, but they added that they could not afford the estimated $2 million that a full restoration would cost.
Mayor Joe Boles said, "I'm not ready to tear it down."
The board did not discuss possible financing but said it would try to find grants for historic preservation.
When completed, the city could use the structure as a public meeting place or small 150-seat theater as well as a place for elegant parties, receptions and fundraisers.
Mancino said, "This is the best thing we can do with this building. It's the last piece of something we no longer have. It's well worth preserving."
Built in 1883, the structure served as the first railroad depot for the Jacksonville, St. Augustine & Halifax River Railroad, later part of the Florida East Coast railway purchased by Henry Flagler.
"There aren't many spaces like this surviving today," Mancino said. "I know of one other, and it's in New Jersey. We have the ability to restore this building."
John Regan, the city's operations manager, said city crews would be inside the building soon, shoring up sagging beams. Bats are nesting in there too.
Mancino said a bearing wall had been removed long ago and steel lintels were rusted through, adding more stress to the roof.
Regan said, "We're going to make sure the building is safe. It's a historic structure."
In 1886, the structure was turned into a water works. It had a 90' high brick chimney outside and boilers were separated from the southern half by an interior brick wall.
The depot stayed a waterworks until 1928.
Renovated in the 1970s, it later became home for St. Augustine Garden Club, and for more than three years has been condemned.
Even so, Mancino said, it should be rehabilitated and preserved.
"It's a true treasure," worthy of the "substantial effort" it would take to save it, he said.
His report to the city said he was surprised when he found that the roof structure and roof deck were meant to be seen when inside the building.
"The roof trusses, purlins, rafters and even the roof deck itself were stained and varnished," he said. "This secret is hidden above the attic floor, which was only installed in 1928. The skill and care used in this construction equals and exceeds the level of finish found in churches from this period."
(http://www.staugustine.com/images/061609/35705_512.jpg)
(http://www.staugustine.com/images/061609/35712_512.jpg)
Source: http://www.staugustine.com/stories/061609/news_061609_054.shtml
WOW !!! What a beautiful Structure. :)
We have an address? I'd like to see it for myself when I go to St. Aug next weekend. :D
Take pics, Heather :)
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 17, 2009, 10:38:38 PM
Hi Speed Rail to St. Augustine, I am on BOARD!!! Whooooohooooo!
Ball was an SOB who threw the railroad into BK to kill off the unions. I don't like unions, but this guy worked to kill off the growth of the company when many who were non-union needed the rr. Today, he would not even he suitable to carry baggage for Amtrak.
My favorite curmudgeon likes the idea of extending passenger rail to St. Augustine? Great to have you aboard (pun intended!)
Quote from: Timkin on July 23, 2010, 02:47:21 PM
Take pics, Heather :)
That's my intent. I promised myself I'd get back into serious photography once my son was in school, and it's almost that time. Guess I need to save pennies up to buy another D-series Nikon. (
I sometimes regret that I sold the last one)
Geez even St Augustine saves their history a lot better than Jacksonville does.
Quote from: Timkin on July 23, 2010, 03:26:29 PM
Geez even St Augustine saves their history a lot better than Jacksonville does.
Throw a random dart at a map and pretty much any city it lands on preserves its history better than JAX does.
Quote from: Timkin on July 23, 2010, 03:26:29 PM
Geez even St Augustine saves their history a lot better than Jacksonville does.
Well, when you claim to be the oldest city in the country, it kind of goes with the territory.
@Chris.. Pretty much
@Fine.. This is alot of what makes St. Augustine the artsy City it is.. Everywhere you look, theres landmarks . :)
There is only one choice for this building and that is the North Beach railroad. I just don't know where anyone is getting information that this particular building was anything besides a city water works built in 1897. Someone needs to point to any source that this building was actually a train station. Gil Wilson aka Dr. Bronson
Dr Bronson, not to be rude but have you read this thread? The buildings history is cited through a few well respected sources. As a side, does anyone what became of this? Was it saved?
This is not the St. Johns railroad. This is the small gauge Jacksonville line that Flagler would buy.
Quote from: glwilson_us on June 10, 2013, 11:10:50 PM
This is not the St. Johns railroad. This is the small gauge Jacksonville line that Flagler would buy.
Well now I am confused, are you asking if this was the Railroad Station for St. Augustine? Because before you said it was never anything but a building for water utility.
Quote from: glwilson_us on June 08, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
I just don't know where anyone is getting information that this particular building was anything besides a city water works built in 1897. Someone needs to point to any source that this building was actually a train station. Gil Wilson aka Dr. Bronson
Quote from: Jason on June 19, 2009, 02:56:53 PM
QuoteCity to shore up collapsing depot
City commission looking for $2M to fix Flagler-era railroad building
By PETER GUINTA | More by this reporter | peter.guinta@staugustine.com | Posted: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 ; Updated: 9:12 PM on Tuesday, June 16, 2009
Built in 1883, the structure served as the first railroad depot for the Jacksonville, St. Augustine & Halifax River Railroad, later part of the Florida East Coast railway purchased by Henry Flagler.
(http://www.staugustine.com/images/061609/35705_512.jpg)
(http://www.staugustine.com/images/061609/35712_512.jpg)
Source: http://www.staugustine.com/stories/061609/news_061609_054.shtml
^^^^^BUMP^^^^^
This building is indeed the 'original' depot. As for the FLAGLER DEPOT, well, sort of. It would have been the depot that Mr. Flagler and his lovely wife arrived at when they first visited the city and BEFORE they owned anything here short of an apartment in Jacksonville. It is a pretty amazing structure.
WHAT IT WAS:
Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River Railroad... It was the station for the Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Halifax River Railroad, a dusty and poorly built 3' foot (narrow gauge) line connecting the ferry landing in South Jacksonville with San Marco Street in St. Augustine. One wonders if and or how long the Jacksonville station stood and if/and/or any of the old buildings around Kings Avenue Skyway Station could be related??
Maybe to help sort things out. WHAT THE SAN MARCO BUILDING IS NOT:
The St Johns Railway ... Tocoi (steamboat wharf) to St. Augustine, depot sat in the parking lot of the former FEC RY offices and current Flagler College buildings off of US-1. There are many piers that were removed from their San Sebastian bridge under the new US-1 bridge, Archer Western had me come and look at the site to tell them what it was. They were pretty amazed to find what they were calling a old highway bridge, turned out to be a 1830's vintage railroad trestle. (totally abandoned)
St Augustine and Palatka Railway... From the parking lot of the College (per above) and curving off of the railroad from the San Marco area alongside the St. Johns Railway, then continuing west southwest through Elkton, Spuds, Hastings to East Palatka. After Flagler bought the line from Jacksonville to the San Marco station, this was the next link in the chain that would someday reach Key West as the FEC RY. It is likely this is when the San Marco station was basically abandoned in favor of the 'parking lot' site where the three railroads joined.
Jacksonville, St. Augustine and Indian River Railroad... The first 'major' phase of Flagler's railroad empire, the rail lines were consolidated under this name and standard gauged (4' 8 ½"). This company operated the St. Augustine Union Station, built where the fire station is today on Malaga, and in the nearly identical foot print and design as the fire station. The little yard in front of the fire station is still 'FEC PARK'.
Florida East Coast Railway... All of the above,
St. Augustine and North Beach Railway... This was a horsecar line (streetcar) that left the San Marco Street Station and angled over through (just south of the museum) marsh at Fort Mose, it made a lazy 'S' curve along the Tolomato River then crossed over where Aunt Kate's is today. It was owned by the family that developed much of Vilano Beach and it's casino (recently razed), RV park, and restaurant. The family and the restaurant is still there and it's full of photos! Aunt Kate's ROCKS! I have a survey showing how this line was to be tied into the streetcar system but have found no further records. They may have used this station after the FEC companies moved on.
St. Augustine and South Beach Railway... A little interurban line (light-rail) that ran from St. Augustine Beach, nearly across the foot of the lighthouse, to the ferry landing at the east end of the Bridge of The Lions today. They would eventually bridge the river with a substantial pivot span draw toll bridge, road on one side, railroad on the other. After a time of urbanization the line was electrified and became the anchor for the St. Johns Electric Railway. The City streetcar system. The depot sat at the foot of King Street downtown on the waterfront. It survived and today is near the airport.
The St. Johns Electric Railway... This streetcar system became quite a respectable piece of property but with the great fire of 1914, and the movement of the FEC RY (and the tourists of the era) south toward Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Miami and eventually Key West, the railroad ran into early financial difficulties around 1920. By 1924 a plan was hatched to tear out all city streetcars for busification but to extend the line on the island further south into the 'City of St. Augustine Beach,' electric car operation would continue for a few more years from the foot of King, over the trestle (eastbound) to the beach, returning via the Bridge of The Lions (westbound).
Right now, the entire historic San Marco station is fenced off with contractor fencing and I'll be fishing for updated information.
Such a beautiful building