Metro Jacksonville

Everyone Is Knocking at JTA.  But No One is Home.

Yesterday, the enterprising livebloggers of Metrojacksonville.com intended to bring to our readers the inner workings of the JTA Board.

Our plans revolved around attending the monthly meeting of the Board of Directors. (The third Thursday of every month) in which all issues and initiatives and programs developed by the JTA are discussed and voted on for approval.

After two years of being told what deadbeat dads and slow moving dinosaurs this semi mythical board is, we looked forward to documenting for ourselves the machinations of The Little Train That Can't."


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-may-everyone-is-knocking-at-jta-but-no-one-is-home

Great article Stephen... This needs more publicity.  Nothing like a bit of embarassment to get the ball... er... train a rolling...

So the people who run JTA are:
2 Lawyers
2 Engineers/contractors
1 Golf-course real estate mogul
1 Banker/financier
1 utility contractor

I know sometimes I miss the boats going across the river (as it were), but shouldn't there be, I don't know, a Transportation Planner and/or an Urban Planner on the Executive Board?  Someone who, if on said Board, I could look at this list and go "oh, someone who knows what they're doing and has a relavent background to serve in said position." 

I mean no disrespect to any of these people or their respective professions, but I'd really like to know how any of these credentials trump being involved with and disciplined in Transportation/Transit, Urban, and regional planning and design.

You dont suppose they canceled the meeting because they knew MetroJax would be there live blogging do you?

I have not seen anything about JTA missing the meeting in the Times Union.  I am all but certain there has been nothing on the news either, but I don't watch the local news as much as I should.  Whether one is a proponent of rail or not, I think the average citizen would be pretty appalled to hear our local TRANSIT agency and nobody from the City were present at this meeting.  Regardless of whether someone cares about rail or public transportation one iota, they should be fired up that an agency consuming millions of our tax dollars a year is run with such incompetence and/or apathy.

That surprises me.  My point partially was this:  Exposing dereliction of public servants moves copy off the racks.  Another casualty in the death of investigative journalism.  Imagine if it was the T-U or Channel 4 who were planning to ask the same questions you were prepared to ask.  Think they would have gotten stood up?

So when is the next JTA Board meeting?

The board minutes should be public record and available to any who wishes to see them.  Perhaps it would be helpful to see what they have been talking about in past meetings...

QuoteSo when is the next JTA Board meeting?

According to the JTA website it is 25 June...

http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Calendar/showPage.aspx?Sel=7

That date is carved in stone and unalterable... :) ::)

Here is the list of workshops:

High speed rail and intercity passenger rail workshops, regarding the federal stimulus money:

• Wednesday: Charlotte, NC

• Thursday: Orlando

• May 27: Seattle

• May 28: Sacramento

• May 29: Houston

• June 1: Chicago

• June 2: Philadelphia

(http://www.grinningplanet.com/2003/hollywood-television-violence/snowballs-chance-in-hell-copyright7.gif)

What's the chance that we'll be sending a Jax delegation to Chicago or Philly to make up for the regional meetings we missed in Charlotte and Orlando?

Even if JTA went to Chicago or Philly, what are the chances that anyone at those meetings would want to talk about Florida?

While exploring the JTA site I found this... JTA's Streetcar study from September 2008...

http://www.jtafla.com/pdf/Streetcars/finalReport-Streetcar2-092608.pdf

We published the final draft a few months ago:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-streetcars-coming-to-downtown-jacksonville

Did you see anything in it different from the document that appeared on this site?

Quote from: Lunican on May 29, 2009, 03:26:43 PM
Even if JTA went to Chicago or Philly, what are the chances that anyone at those meetings would want to talk about Florida?

(http://www.grinningplanet.com/2003/hollywood-television-violence/snowballs-chance-in-hell-copyright7.gif)

Quote from: Lunican on May 29, 2009, 03:26:43 PM
Even if JTA went to Chicago or Philly, what are the chances that anyone at those meetings would want to talk about Florida?

Even if they just went and said Jax is interested.  That would pacify me.  Come on everyone loves Chi-town if your in luck the Cards will be in town to beat the Cubs.

Amen Jeffrey!  Go Cards! 

But yes, that is the precise sort of stewardship of the taxpayer dollar that we have come to know and expect.  Let's totally bail on the meeting we should have attended that is a 3 hour car ride away.  Instead, lets all fly to Chicago and stay at the 4 seasons.  Sounds about right.

Considering the meeting in Chicago is on Monday and they've all left for the weekend, I wouldn't worry about tax dollars being spent on this particular trip.

"They are apparently leaving a comment on the Federal Railroad Administrations webpage for the workshop."
^^^ what a great line!

Could this article be sent to the TU somehow? Perhaps editorial? This topic needs more exposure

QuoteWell Jackie Gibbs just called me back (which was nice, it is after all late afternoon on a Friday..most chiefs of staff have left early for deliberately flimsy reasons in order to avoid all that afternoon traffic).She is checking to see if they have the minutes available in a digital format, and will get back to me monday or tuesday.

so we shall see.

Jackie Gibbs is a nice person, she used to work in the City Purchasing department. She will get back to you, but you are not her priority, so follow-up to help her out.

MetroJax might want to bone up on the State's Public Records Laws regarding making available public documents, etc. 

The City of Jax just paid thousands in settlement for legal fees to Folio writer, Marvin Edwards, when the General Counsel's office, of all people, claimed for over a year not to have what turned out to be boxes and boxes of records on the Super Bowl Host Committee and the stadium's construction details.  The legal fees were for the preparation of a law suit that finally got the City's attention and suddenly produced the "non-existent" records.

So egregious were the violations, that the City revised its entire public records process and the Ethic's Commission gave Edwards a commendation!  Some times you can fight City Hall and win  ;)

From my MJ post at:  http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4567.0.html#quickreply

Quote from: stjr on March 12, 2009, 01:18:27 PM

From: Jacksonville Financial News and Daily Record:  http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=51980

Quote03/12/2009

Ethics Subcommittee hears complaints on records access

by Joe Wilhelm Jr.
Staff Writer

The City’s Office of General Counsel admitted Wednesday that it “dropped the ball” recently, and should have done a better job in meeting some public records requests from local media.

The City’s Ethics Commission held a Legislative Subcommittee meeting Wednesday to hear complaints about access to public records and give City officials a chance to address these complaints. The subcommittee’s purpose is to evaluate the current city code and determine if changes should be made and present those findings to the full Ethics Commission.

“The document request got bounced around and we made a mistake,” said Cindy Laquidara, chief deputy general counsel, “which is why we settled the case. It should have been responded to faster, the documents should’ve been produced.”

The request Laquidara was referring to was made by Folio Weekly and contributing writer Marvin Edwards, who authored an Oct. 7 article, “Stadium Scam.” The article detailed the alternative news weekly’s attempts to gain access to information on the renovation of the Gator Bowl for the arrival of the Jaguars and the Super Bowl Host Committee.

The article explained that Folio Weekly was prevented access to certain documents until it hired an attorney to assist with the request, which Laquidara referred to when she mentioned the City settled with Folio Weekly.

“This Ethics Committee received a letter from Steve Powell of the General Counsel’s Office,” said Edwards. “One of the things he said was we made a number of false statements. That is equal to accusing us of lying. Everything we write, we have documented. We didn’t appreciate the comment made by Mr. Powell.”

The letter Edwards referred to was written after the Ethics Commission requested that the OGC respond to the accusations made in the Oct. 7 article and Powell sent that letter to then Ethics Commission Chair Jay Williams.

Powell explained in the letter, “...neither the (Ethics) Commission nor the public should be left with any doubt as to the City of Jacksonville’s commitment to comply with the law. The City and the Office of General Counsel are committed to full, transparent compliance with the Florida Public Records Law and would not knowingly conceal any non-exempt, non-confidential records or deny any member of the public access to them.”

Powell further stated, “(The Folio Weekly) article overstates what was requested initially and makes it appear that the City concealed records. Moreover, it inaccurately relates the City’s efforts to otherwise respond to the requests. To the contrary, the City’s response to all of the requests in question were prompt and in good faith.”

Powell was one of five attorneys from the OGC to be involved with the public records requests made by Folio Weekly, and, according to Laquidara, that was four too many.

“If you look at our response, we had too many attorneys involved. “That’s something in the ultimate recommendation that I’m going to take away from this is that we have to have a point person and maybe one or two people supporting them to handle these requests.”

The OGC doesn’t handle all public records requests. They handle requests from its office and questions about exemptions from other City agencies, but each agency is responsible for their own records requests. Laquidara is also trying to help process the requests better.

“I’ve developed a form response letter that I try to get out to the agencies to use,” said Laquidara. “It has a checklist on it to make sure you have covered everything. The request is also attached to this list, so we have procedures in place for records requests.”

Some of the subcommittee members weren’t pleased with the access that was provided to Folio Weekly and other media outlets.

“Looking at this, we can all agree that we should have done a better job,” said subcommittee member Scott Shine.

“We need to make sure the spirit of Chapter 119 (Florida’s Public Records Law) is complied with,” said Committee member Pat Sher.

One way the City could improve its public records access might be to update its records keeping system.

“We have a very old system for filing documents,” said Laquidara. “It’s not a scan and store system, so it is hard to find older documents sometimes.”

Something the subcommittee hopes isn’t too hard to find is its identity.

“Would you describe the Ethics Commission as an investigative body?” asked Shine.

“I would say you are more of a deliberative body and at times you investigate ethics complaints,” said Laquidara. “I wouldn’t say you are solely investigative.”

The discussion exceeded the two hours allotted for the meeting, so the subcommittee will continue the discussion at its April 8 meeting.

“I’d like to talk about what our jurisdiction currently is and what we can do as a commission,” said Braxton Gillam, chair of the subcommittee. “And have an open discussion about what kind of suggestions we might want to make to change things if we don’t already have jurisdictional power.”

And here is an update from just last week:

Quote05/28/2009

by Joe Wilhelm Jr.

Staff Writer

....The commission also recognized Folio Weekly contributing writer Marvin Edwards with a letter of appreciation for his contributions to the Ethics Commission’s recent investigation of complaints from citizens about public records requests. Edwards wrote an article for Folio Weekly titled “Stadium Scam,” which detailed the multi-year effort it took to get public record requests completed regarding documents related to the renovations to Jacksonville Municipal Stadium prior to the Jacksonville Jaguars moving in.

(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/articles/05_28_09/3a.jpg)
Ethics Commission Chair Gene Filbert reads a letter on Tuesday from the Commission thanking reporter Marvin Edwards (left) for his contributions to the Commission’s investigation of citizen complaints regarding access to public records.

From: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52458#

This is horrendous!  I have such a deep love for this city but I am horrified at the incompetence, apathy, and downright corruption with which this city is governed.  We have got to get this story into the hands of the media so the citizens of this city can see what we are paying these "officials" to do.

JTA needs at least one Urban Planner on the board for goodness sake!!!  Politics are a sad cry from smart business.

Are the board members working on a volunteer basis, or do they get paid?  

If they get paid, there should be a much greater level of ambition and accountability for the members.  

If it is only volunteer based, I could possibly understand how the board members seem to put the full time job as the top priority.  When that is the case, they should resign and give the position to someone who cares and wants to make a difference for the communtiy - and not someone who is just looking to have something special on their resume.  

Quote from: ralpho37 on June 01, 2009, 10:05:41 AM
This is horrendous!  I have such a deep love for this city but I am horrified at the incompetence, apathy, and downright corruption with which this city is governed.

It seems like this is always the case.

UPDATED....Here is the list of workshops:

QuoteHigh speed rail and intercity passenger rail workshops, regarding the federal stimulus money:

• Wednesday: Charlotte, NC

• Thursday: Orlando

• May 27: Seattle

• May 28: Sacramento

• May 29: Houston

• June 1: Chicago

• June 2: Philadelphia

(http://www.grinningplanet.com/2003/hollywood-television-violence/snowballs-chance-in-hell-copyright7.gif)

What's the chance that we'll be sending a Jax delegation to Chicago or Philly to make up for the regional meetings we missed in Charlotte and Orlando?

Lets go ahead and read that snowball his last rites.

Lakelander, let me get this straight. They are holding a passenger rail workshop in Philadelphia, the center of the Northeast Corridor. The most heavily traveled passenger rail corridor in the country and they won't be discussing Jacksonville. Are you serious???

^Jax's delegation should have been at either the Charlotte or Orlando meetings.  If serious about lobbying for a piece of the pie, we should have been at both.  After all, what comes out of the lego sessions and visioning studies will still need money to be implemented.  Unfortunately, if Jax isn't at any money related meetings to promote their own cause, there will be no discussion about the First Coast being a part of the plans and it will be more difficult to fight for funding.  Instead, the municipalities who were present will make their case for all the money to flow to their regions and we'll just fall further behind.

Quote from: copperfiend on June 01, 2009, 10:52:55 AM
Lakelander, let me get this straight. They are holding a passenger rail workshop in Philadelphia, the center of the Northeast Corridor. The most heavily traveled passenger rail corridor in the country and shirley they won't be discussing Jacksonville. Are you serious???

Yes we are serious, (and don't call me Shirley). The same Northeast Corridor AMTRAK has announced will be expanded to J A C K S O N V I L L E !  

Ocklawaha

Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2009, 11:19:30 AM
^Jax's delegation should have been at either the Charlotte or Orlando meetings.  If serious about lobbying for a piece of the pie, we should have been at both.  After all, what comes out of the lego sessions and visioning studies will still need money to be implemented.  Unfortunately, if Jax isn't at any money related meetings to promote their own cause, there will be no discussion about the First Coast being a part of the plans and it will be more difficult to fight for funding.  Instead, the municipalities who were present will make their case for all the money to flow to their regions and we'll just fall further behind.

The Orlando thing is ridiculous.

^Definitely ridiculous...  While Amtrak is serious about extending high speed service into Florida, our city government's apathy will lead Jacksonville into being nothing more than a quick stop along the way to Disney.  We need to grab this thing by the horns like every other city in Florida is doing.

By the way, I e-mailed this story to the Times-Union, so maybe they'll take some notice.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 01, 2009, 11:32:47 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on June 01, 2009, 10:52:55 AM
Lakelander, let me get this straight. They are holding a passenger rail workshop in Philadelphia, the center of the Northeast Corridor. The most heavily traveled passenger rail corridor in the country and Shirley they won't be discussing Jacksonville. Are you serious???

Yes we are serious, (and don't call me Shirley). The same Northeast Corridor AMTRAK has announced will be expanded to J A C K S O N V I L L E !  

Ocklawaha

Our stellar performance in government, lobbying and transportation in general makes us sound more like the "Port of Alexandria LA, on the Red River, then a budding World Class city.

Hey guys, does ANYONE in transportation even know if we have a single bus route with better then 20 minute headways anywhere except for the PCT's?

We'll keep fooling around and Amtrak, the DOT and FTA will build a new Terminal, maybe even larger then our own, somewhere in the Orlando/Sanford area. That will effectively push us into "flag stop" status.

I know at least 3-4 people at JTA that would LOVE to push this, but the chain of command forbids them from approaching the top management. Imagine, SUNSHINE, and our own decent experts can't go to the top and talk.

No offense to Alexandria, damn, y'all may rocket past us since we're in reverse in all things mobile.

OCKLAWAHA

Dont forget Bingo... :D

Them not showing up a a major passenger rail conference is a huge blow to my confidence personally that they ever care about this.  Amtrak was at this event ready to print money, and we said that's okay, we don't want it.

WTF?  Especially since going to the event had no bearing on whether or not we actually took the money.  It is appalling to me that NOT ONE person from Jacksonville showed up at this, save for Ock and Stephen Dare.

Quote from: stephendare on May 29, 2009, 02:15:13 PM
the timing was weird, Ill tell ya, BT.

Dr. K.   I cant get over the fact that one of the board members is LandMar.  Thats kind of letting the fox in with the hens isnt it?

The Chairwoman, while hot, is an attorney, but I wonder if she has experience in transit law.

How do you know she's hot?  Looks can be deceiving.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see anyone well versed or experienced with a solid background in any type of transportation type field or urban planning.  I think this might be part of the problem regarding why things don't get done the way they should within JTA.

Heights Unknown

That's the point.. there needs to be SOMEONE on the board with real urban planning credentials.  The entire board is not going to be urban planners or transportation experts, and that is fine.  The major job of the board is more business than it is implementation.  Therefore it is no problem if the board consists primarily of businesspeople, lawyers, etc. Nevertheless, the ultimate responsibility of having a vision and putting the vision in the hands of the right people falls upon the board, and there needs to be somebody there who has the capacity to develop that vision.  Right now JTA might see clear as day how to manage the business of public transportation but they lack even eyes in the sockets to see how to implement a transportation system that becomes a civic asset.  Get some urban planners on the board to articulate a vision... if they stink then we can at least call them blind.  Right now, even calling them blind gives them too much credit.

May be time to start picketing the Council meetings and Transportation sub-committee meetings with signage addressed to Amtrak (might as well skip the JTA, as even if they aren't skipping what the populace wants, the COJ is skipping them).

May get some media coverage from local stations and papers (if COJ doesn't collar it), and at least Hemming Plaza would be used for something other than a vagrant day-camp for a change.

Anyone got a contact a Amtrak that supportive citizens can email indicating our desire for rail, despite our municipality's apparent position?

"Mealy-mouthed"... love it.

Quote from: heights unknown on June 01, 2009, 03:09:45 PM

Quote from: stephendare on May 29, 2009, 02:15:13 PM
the timing was weird, Ill tell ya, BT.

Dr. K.   I cant get over the fact that one of the board members is LandMar.  Thats kind of letting the fox in with the hens isnt it?

The Chairwoman, while hot, is an attorney, but I wonder if she has experience in transit law.

How do you know she's hot?  Looks can be deceiving.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see anyone well versed or experienced with a solid background in any type of transportation type field or urban planning.  I think this might be part of the problem regarding why things don't get done the way they should within JTA.

Heights Unknown

ok...time for me to defend JTA....there are at least 3 urban planners on their staff (all with planning degrees).....the planning staff does believe in rail, but sometimes you have to take things slowly...especially when higher-ups, board members, and/or political leaders don't share the same view.

And, as has been stated here before, there was a major regional planning event here in Jax. the same day as the Amtrak meeting....and that event included 300 regional leaders who for the first time started imagining the future urban form of our region...which in many cases included significant investements in transit.

now that I read the article, there are many errors.

Prime among them is the JTA planners escorted the TOD expert around Jax. on 5/22....as has been reported many times (and in my post above) they were at Reality Check on 5/21....as was the Mayor, the head of JEDC, and other key local and regional leaders.

And no....everyone who is a big hitter in the transportation game was not at the Amtrak meeting...in fact, most of the heavy hitters in Jacksonville and our local FDOT district were at Reality Check.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be in two places at once?

A couple points - first to expand on what tufsu said, and in response to Stephen Dare's earlier comment, even if the planners he mentioned wanted to go to the Amtrak meeting - they couldn't go without approval from their bosses.  Their bosses apparently thought it was better for them to be here.

As far as I know, the Board members are volunteers - no pay; only travel expenses when they go out of town for the JTA.

added based on tufsu1's latter post - I think the 3rd paragraph is the point being made here, that all the local "heavy hitters" were at Reality Check, and not one could be spared for the Amtrak meeting.

QuoteAnd no....everyone who is a big hitter in the transportation game was not at the Amtrak meeting...in fact, most of the heavy hitters in Jacksonville and our local FDOT district were at Reality Check.

I think this is the major problem.  All of our big hitters were in town for Reality Check, while most of the other major metropolitan big hitters were at a workshop discussing how incoming rail federal stimulus money will be spent.

Whatever happened to multi-tasking?  The idea behind Reality Check is cool, but it does not mean much if we don't put ourselves in position to get money to help implement a few projects.  I can't vouch for the article 100%, because I was not at either event, but it would be nice if we could have spared a person or two (JTA, TPO, FDOT, Council, Mayor's Office, etc.) to represent Jacksonville and to ensure that we are an important part of the planning process.

Btw, from what I understand, Amtrak was only a part of this meeting.  The overall purpose was for it to be a workshop to help decide what would be the best way for Florida to take advantage of HSR and intercity rail stimulus dollars that could be flowing our way.  If this was the purpose, I could definitely see how having representation at meetings like this could lead to some of the concepts discussed at Reality Check and the various vision studies becoming reality....sooner rather than later.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 01, 2009, 09:43:37 PM
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all be in two places at once?

So, there were seven of the rail meetings: Charlotte, Orlando, Seattle, Sacramento, Houston, Chicago, and Philadelphia.  I find it hard to believe that the JTA was busy all of these dates.  While it wouldn't have been focused on Florida, it would have been better than not going to any of them. 

Plus, I do find it hard to believe that NOT ONE person could represent JTA, and instead, had to participate in a planning exercise, that based on previous plans, will not lead to any change in how we plan in this city.  Apparently we're supposed to trust that Daniel Davis and his homebuilders will put aside profit in favor of a Lego Board.  Personally, considering that the Feds are looking to hand out $$$ (and believe me, this is not going to be around forever), I would have sent at least one person down to stick their hand out.

Finally, you mentioned that the JTA has three planners on staff.  If I were employed as a planner, I would be ashamed to admit that.

To be fair, tufsu1 said he knew of at least three planners (with planning degrees) on JTA's staff.  Lets just hope that they have a few more than that.

Regarding the rail meetings, since Jax is a part of the Southeast HSR corridor, the Charlotte meeting would have been just as important as the Orlando meeting. 

(http://www.sehsr.org/graphics/sehsr_front.gif)

link: http://www.sehsr.org/

Btw, here is an interesting chart on that site.  When you look at the amount of years it takes to typically get federal related projects done, it makes taking advantage of the stimulus more critical.

(http://www.sehsr.org/graphics/projectprocess.gif)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2009, 10:23:21 PM
Btw, here is an interesting chart on that site.  When you look at the amount of years it takes to typically get federal related projects done, it makes taking advantage of the stimulus more critical.

(http://www.sehsr.org/graphics/projectprocess.gif)

Wow, Lake.  That chart says it all and backs up my previous estimate of 10 years or more for any dreams of MJ mass transit to come to fruition.  If you apply this chart, as well, to Streetcars, Trolleys, Amtrak, HSR, or even the $ky-high-way expansion some here dream about, and mix in our late local start, it will be 2020 before we even BEGIN construction on anything beyond what currently exists!  Figure another 3 to 5 or more years to build out a project, and we are talking 2025.

This is a great example of why trying to have Jax focus on one more modes of mass transit will just paralyze our community and add more years of delays just debating the solutions.  Dump the $ky-high-way and go full speed ahead on suburban rail mass transit and/or streetcars.

Tufsu you are a very informed poster but trying to spin that the JTA as well as other coj departments can't find a few warm bodies no matter what is going on in town for a rail workshop like this is a depressing joke. I think the rule of thumb is if it is over 7 billion dollars you go.

Interesting. Very interesting article. Although I am not too familiar with what Reality Check is, I find it strange That jax/JTA didn't send anyone to anyone of the meeting, If it was me I would think to send some reps to all off the meetings including Seattle. This saddens me, and proves the point that Jacksonville as a whole is happy the way Jacksonville is. Content. This site is not even interested in what is going on. The "i hate Moon River Pizza' topic got more hits then this. Just shows were the citizens priorities are. The only reason I bring that up is because this topic is way more important, yet the same names are replying to it, which means that everyone else lacks an interest.

Stephan Dare, don't you have some buddies that work for Folio? Maybe you can hit them up, I wouldn't expect anything from TU.

The people on the board of directors or whatever they are....why would those individuals care about Amtrak?? With the type of gigs they have I would think they would support JIA before locate Amtrak help. I will agree with Stephan though, the lawyer chick is a MILF! None seem to be urban planners or civic engineers.

Then the lie about showing people around Jacksonville to create TODs??? I mean that sounds like a "meant for MJ.com response" when I read that I though "well how convienant" JTA/Jax reps miss an important meeting involving FED money, Amtrak & etc, but when someone affiliated with MJ.com calls to investigate the response is "Well they were showing people around to create TODs" Thats so suspect.

STJR....I agree with you buy the time things get approved they wont get built til 2020, 2025 or 2050, not because of cost, but because of this lack of a go getter attitude that Jax leadership has.

This story will get pushed under the rug and forgotten about unless the people do something.

Wow. As an out-of-towner, I get the feeling nobody wants me to come to Jacksonville anymore. You folks would have a better chance than I could to ask Ava L. Parker, Michael Cavendish, Donald P. Hinson, Edward E. Burr, Cleve E. Warren, A. J. Johns, and Charles W. Baldwin what meetings they missed, and what they can do to at least make Jacksonville more accessible to me. If they don't see things that way for their own kind, why are they on the list to begin with?  It seems they don't give a flying you-know-what about the JTA, locals, or travelers!

Quote from: stjr on June 01, 2009, 11:15:12 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2009, 10:23:21 PM
Btw, here is an interesting chart on that site.  When you look at the amount of years it takes to typically get federal related projects done, it makes taking advantage of the stimulus more critical.

(http://www.sehsr.org/graphics/projectprocess.gif)

Wow, Lake.  That chart says it all and backs up my previous estimate of 10 years or more for any dreams of MJ mass transit to come to fruition.  If you apply this chart, as well, to Streetcars, Trolleys, Amtrak, HSR, or even the $ky-high-way expansion some here dream about, and mix in our late local start, it will be 2020 before we even BEGIN construction on anything beyond what currently exists!  Figure another 3 to 5 or more years to build out a project, and we are talking 2025.

This is a great example of why trying to have Jax focus on one more modes of mass transit will just paralyze our community and add more years of delays just debating the solutions.  Dump the $ky-high-way and go full speed ahead on suburban rail mass transit and/or streetcars.

As we've been saying for years now, it doesn't have to be this way.  We can get started without gong through the typical federal process and begin to enjoy the benefits in 2-3 years as opposed to +10.

1. Take advantage of Amtrak stimulus dollars to ramp up their service. They are already running, the money is there and it won't take 10 years to implement if public support is shown. They may be intercity, but they'll have to upgrade the same lines we are considering for commuter rail, which will reduce our commuter rail implementation costs.  In the meantime, the system could serve as a limited commuting operation between places like Orange Park & St. Augustine and Downtown.  THIS IS WHY IT WAS IMPORTANT TO BE AT THAT MEETING IN ORLANDO.

2. Publicly fight to use the remaining $100 million for rapid transit, in BJP funds to implement a starter rail corridor (streetcar or commuter rail).  If you use local funds, you don't have to abide by this slow federal process.  If we don't, the Mayor will raid the pot and we'll really be screwed.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-06-02/story/jacksonville_city_council_skeptical_of_peyton’s_borrow-to-build_roads_pl

Need proof on working to build something quick?  Check out Detroit of all places.  A collection of companies are ponying up money to fund a starter modern streetcar system on their own.

QuoteDetroit light rail moves forward
Mark Hicks / The Detroit News

(http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20090522&Category=METRO&ArtNo=905220401&Ref=AR)

Detroit -- Leaders of a $125 million light rail project said Thursday they have reached an agreement to collaborate with the city on a three-mile plan to link city riders in a local transit system.

The privately funded M-1 Rail, an approximately 3.4 mile, 12-stop route from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard, would be the "first phase" of a Detroit Department of Transportation's proposed $371 million project. That plan, the Detroit Transit Options for Growth, calls for a light rail to extend from Grand to Eight Mile, said Matthew Cullen, M-1 project president and CEO.

"We were always going to make sure we were compatible," he said of the transit plans. "We're totally motivated to be linked up with them. It is really an important step in having a real regional rapid transit system."

Norman White, formerly of DDOT, could not be reached for comment Thursday. Meagan Pitts, a city spokeswoman, said officials are continuing talks but couldn't provide details.

M-1 project leaders are still securing funding. The transit line could begin construction as early as this year and be running within two years, Cullen said. Its cars will run along both sides of Woodward.

The project so far has netted about $65 million in donations from foundations and other groups, he said. Detroit's Downtown Development Authority voted earlier this year to contribute $9 million to the project, and state lawmakers last year agreed to support operating costs.

Cullen said both M-1 Rail and the DDOT project, which the DTOG said could carry an estimated 22,200 daily riders, are expected to be part of a regional mass transportation plan linking the tricounty area to downtown.

The plan was approved in December by leaders of the city as well as Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties. John Hertel, CEO of the Detroit Regional Mass Transit group, told The Detroit News last year a cooperative governing body could be established to oversee the rail system.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090522/METRO/905220401/Detroit-light-rail-moves-forward

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 01, 2009, 11:54:39 PM
Tufsu you are a very informed poster but trying to spin that the JTA as well as other coj departments can't find a few warm bodies no matter what is going on in town for a rail workshop like this is a depressing joke. I think the rule of thumb is if it is over 7 billion dollars you go.

I completely agree that the City, FDOT D2, and/or JTA should have sent a few folks down to Orlando....but Stephen made it sound like they were siting on their butts doing nothing useful....and I wanted t make sure that fdolkks understood that was not the case.

Also, as noted by the folks who did attend, the FDOT Secretary was there....she represents the whole state....and incidentally is from our area!

This is why you have events like Reality Check...from the Tenessean (Nashville paper)

Mayor Karl Dean of Nashville, TN spoke yesterday about his belief that the area needs a regional transit system, and now. Said Dean, "We need to be bold, not afraid and push forward fast."

"Cities like Charlotte, Austin and Denver have something Nashville doesn't: regional mass transit. And I want it," Mayor Karl Dean told community leaders and transportation planners gathered Wednesday to talk about creating such a system in the 10-county Nashville area.

The afternoon conference looked at how transit has been developed in other places and how those experiences might translate to Nashville. It was put on by Cumberland Region Tomorrow, a nonprofit growth and planning group, and other organizations.

But Dean did have one action item. He called for leaders in Cheatham, Davidson, Dickson, Maury, Montgomery, Robertson, Rutherford, Sumner, Williamson and Wilson counties to create a work group â€" successful in other cities â€" that will formulate concrete plans for mass transit that people actually want and would use.

'This is where we find the money, design the plan and implement the plan," Dean said. "We need to be bold, not afraid and push forward fast.'"

I think we can all agree that both (Reality Check and rail stimulus workshops) are needed.  We just have to learn how to do two things at once.

^ And not keep all of our eggs in one basket at once, as it were.

I'm certainly NOT the worlds great High Speed Rail (HSR) proponent, in fact I believe most of it, including the Florida plan is worthless. I do support a greatly improved Amtrak system, and would even like to see it go private through "to good to be true, government incentives, tax breaks etc..." Fat Chance. So that brings me to Amtrak, the railroad equal to "wal-mart's EQUATE brand drugs." From a national system of colorful, individual, interconnected fast trains, each as distinct as a cruise ship, to a system of "battleship gray" GI issue, sameness.
It's all we have left and we need to rapidly get on it, expand it, and use it.

I'll be damned if I want to drive to Frickin' Callahan to catch a train so get that station back in town!

I happen to believe 2 daily trains (2 north - 2 south) for the fourth largest state in population is a sham. As we move into the 3Rd largest populated State, one has to ask, how many trains have California and New York?

Anyone feeling our Skyway, Streetcar, BRT or Commuter Rail Plans are mutually exclusive, hasn't a clue how REAL transit operates. Stand in front of your bathroom mirror tonight and repeat after me, "Cross Platform Seamless Transfer...", "Cross Platform Seamless Transfer...", "Cross Platform Seamless Transfer..."

What's in my dream box? How about meter free curbsides downtown? Transit funding from our parking? Full employment for our parking division? Streetcars and electric buses in the core? BRT feeding Skyway and Rail?
Rail feeding Skyway and BRT? Skyway feeding Rail and BRT? Max out Cross Platform Seamless Transit = no more Rosa Parks / Kings Avenue type interchanges?

That's enough for now, but I agree with TUFSU1, and a number of others that JTA is not out of the picture by their own doing. In fact they are more IN IT then many realize...

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on June 02, 2009, 10:54:09 AM
TUFSU.  Wasnt your pro sprawl MPO group one of the sponsors of the Reality Check? 

Secondly, Im not sure why you would be so bold as to call the actual individuals from the JTA liars.

This is a fairly offensive claim, and Im sure that you would be glad of the opportunity to clear up the impression that you are claiming that the individuals involved simply lied about what they were doing.

Ok...

#1...yes the MPO was a sponsor, but they are by no means MINE

#2...I am not calling anyone at JTA a liar....perhaps you misunderstood them....or maybe you spoke to them the day AFTER Reality Check when they were showing the TOD expert around town

#3....feel free to continue over-dramatizing things....but, as I'm sure you understand, that often hurts one's credibility and eventually people just tune you out.

dude...READ THE POST....fsujax said that James Boyle and Scot Clem were meeting with Marilee Utter (the speaker from Reality Check yesterday)....that didn't mean they met with her yesterday...it meant they were meeting with her the day AFTER Reality Check!

I can assure you that this tour was on Friday...because I was invited to go too, but had another engagement!

and you know darn well I'm not part of the MPO....consultants have clients!

ok....well then how about you call James Boyle or Scott Clem yourself and ask them?

so if JTA and Marilee Utter were both at Reality Check on 5/21, how could they also be touring some TOD projects.

You do realize that fsujax wrote his note at 5:53pm on Friday 5/22....so it is entirely poissible that you are confusing the days.

Again, I suggest you verify your assertions by contacting James or Scott again

If Paul Crawford was a part of this tour, then it must have been on Friday.  Paul was behind me at the Mayor's press conference that Thursday.  Between this and Reality Check (which was at World Golf Village?), there would not have been much time for a TOD tour in a spread out city like Jax on the same day.

Good God.....the tour with Marilee was on Friday May 22, 2009.....Reality Check was on Thursday May 21, 2009. Maybe someone just misspoke or mistyped.  Either way both days were full.

thanks Lake an fsujax...at least some people understand!

Okay, in the end, does it REALLY matter what was going on which day or the other?  The bottom line is that JTA chose not to go to a statewide (well.... mostly statewide save NE FL) rail planning conference.  Whether or not they were busy giving a tour to some lady is irrelevant in many senses.  I think we can all agree that the city of Jacksonville missed out on a big opportunity.  Instead of arguing, why not look ahead and make it known and clear to JTA that the people of Jacksonville want representation in the next rail conference, whether it be in Chicago or Philadelphia?

The last workshop was held today in Philadelphia. 

from what I understand, JTA people hve been talking with folks from Amtrak, FRA, etc....and maybe, as is often the case, they can be more successful one-on-one than in a large meeting

Ah, crap...  Here I was trying to be the voice of reason and end up looking like an idiot.

tufsu1, great point.  It is very possible that the city could be in some preliminary negotiations with the right people.  If this is the case, it would definitely show those right people that Jacksonville wants in on this sudden flurry of passenger rail ideas.