Eight Billion Dollars? Jacksonville could care less.
Ocklawaha and I went to a meeting attended by the Mayors of Tampa and Orlando and South Florida, a massive number of our state senators and reps, the Florida Department of Transportation Secretary, the heads of the big railroad, the National Contractors who build transit systems across the country, The President of the Federal Railroad Authority, many members of the national press, the heads of the transit authorities across the state, and the Union heads of Rails and the structural engineers for the industry.
In the gigantic room, every table was taken and crowded, and there was standing room only at the back of the room.
At stake was Florida's share of this years 8 billion dollar rollout of the federal rail authority and the Vice President of Amtrak joined dozens of the top rail honchos in the country to discuss the why's and wherefores of how to get the money and become part of the national rail network.
This meeting was clearly a workshop in which many of the apparent intricacies of the federal qualifications were explained step by step.
At my table, the FEC Union boss, the head of Hillsborough Transit, the builder of the Blue Line, Chicago's long range transit authority planner.
Feet away delegations of mayors.
This is where things started happening.
Guess how many people from Jacksonville were stuffed into this huge gathering of people?
2.
Me and Ocklawaha.
In the discussion of the rollout of both freight and passenger service and rail improvements, Jacksonville was not mentioned one time in any plan or eventuality.
Bob Mann and I were the sole people from our city, and we made our voices heard.
But where in the holiest of hells was our transit authority?
No return phone calls on the subject from either James Boyle or Scott Clem of JTA.
Boys, we'd like to hear a good explanation.
Eagerly yours.
Stephen Dare
Bob Mann
Metrojacksonville.
WOW !!! Truly Amazing. If this doesn't confirm that this city is complete adrift, I don't know what does.
I guess for some of the statewide events more of we sideline sitters will have to make the roadie just to get Jax a better head count. Maybe we can fool some of the other groups into believing Jacksonville is interested in improving itself.
BTW To Stephen and Ock thanks for representing us at the event. Viva Metro Jacksonville.
Thank you for representing JTA and the City by proxy, Stephen and Bob.
If any of these meetings occur on the weekends, count me in. If not, I would need a week's notice to attend.
Stephen that would be a great op ed from MJ to the TU.
Maybe the T-U would be open to a weekly piece from Metro Jacksonville in the Life section or whichever targets the arbitrary 18-34 age group.
I heard James Boyle and Scott Clem were spending the day with the keynote speaker (Marilee Utter http://www.citiventure.com/what.htm) from Reality Check yesterday talking to her and taking her on a whirlwind tour of the city. The meeting and tour centered on TOD's and improving transit and connecting it to futue developments in Jacksonville. I heard they met with several local developers including reps from Bay St Station, Avenues Walk and Jackson Sqaure to get Marilee's views and thoughts on TOD's as well as the planned JRTC in Downtown. Also at the meeting that lasted all day were folks from the JEDC and the City Planning Department. From what I know James really wanted to go to the meeting in Orlando, but could not make it because of today's meeting. I agree there should have been someone there from Jacksonville. Maybe they can make the meeting in Charlotte that will focus on the same issues. I also here James and Scott will be meeting with FEC officials at the highest levels very soon to discuss commuter rail and Amtrak.
I'm still as stunned as Stephen as to where or why our "authorities" (and boy is that a stretch of the meaning of the word) were missing? Authorities? (still makes me laugh) yeah, like JTA? But what about JAA? JPA? JEDC? COFC? VISION? COJ PLANNING?
Come on y'all this isn't some cop out that follows, "Well it wasn't about us, it was about the Florida HSR corridor."
BULL SHIT!
Every agency, of every government, in every corner of the state (EXCEPT NORTHEAST) was there. Planners learned "Train Speak" and how TOD'S play into the HSR Vision. Economic Development folks found out what a driver Amtrak could be in their economic plans. Airports and Ports got a view of an intermodal future with higher speed trains as a component. Everyone got to see renderings of massive new Terminals planned in several Florida Cities. Even Gainesville and Lake City got it. We didn't.
Talk about no shows, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE that spoke to me wanted to meet the Jacksonville delegation.
So do I, (hopefully in a dark alley - and Don't bring a knife to this gun fight!) Damn Jacksonville! Simply Damn!
OCKLAWAHA
So what options do we have to emphasize how important our participation is? How do we instill a sense of urgency in these agencies?
Has anyone performed a RCA to determine why Jacksonville seems so insistent on road building and automobiles? What exactly is preventing us from seizing these opportunities?
Why was the only presence by those who were neither appointed nor voted by the public?
There is a serious problem and it seems all we are getting are excuses.
QuoteBut where in the holiest of hells was our transit authority?
No return phone calls on the subject from either James Boyle or Scott Clem of JTA.
Boys, we'd like to hear a good explanation.
From what I've been able to figure out, in typical STUPID mode, Jacksonville tied the hands of all of JTA's planners, spokespersons, etc. Making sure everyone had their own unique assignment to busy them all day long. THERE WAS NO ESCAPE! I'm pretty sure that Scott and James (of all people) would have been there. Frankly I'd even bet Mike Miller would have gone AND SUPPORTED RAIL, if his marching orders weren't dictated. Blaylock was probably somehow attached to the mayors program like heads of State meeting with the Iranian Government.
So while our mayor pee peed away the day talking about meanless plans for a someday, maybe, another mayor, and tied up all of our officials, the State was building a railroad. As Orlando, Tampa and Miami were torching our passenger Terminal we were hearing about fountains, and grassy flex spaces. Bringing up a revision of the old adage:
"PEYTON Peed while Jacksonville burned..."
I don't know why Blaylock felt Peyton was more important then the Secretary of Transportation, or VP of Amtrak. Perhaps he's afraid of him, perhaps he had no choice, perhaps? I don't blame the rank and file JTA managers, they live in a bureaucratic barf bowl, but the upper management sucking up to Peyton brings on some pretty sickening visions. OCKLAWAHA
I'm really glad you two went to the meeting. I have been to some of the past meetings and you are right that even though no official reps are present, it is important that someone showing interest from Jax goes. I represented Sierra Club at the meetings and learned a lot, met interesting and helpful people and learned what is happening around the state. I'll probably go again when the legislative session is a distant memory.
Quote from: fsujax on May 22, 2009, 05:53:35 PM
I heard James Boyle and Scott Clem were spending the day with the keynote speaker (Marilee Utter http://www.citiventure.com/what.htm) from Reality Check yesterday talking to her and taking her on a whirlwind tour of the city. The meeting and tour centered on TOD's and improving transit and connecting it to futue developments in Jacksonville. I heard they met with several local developers including reps from Bay St Station, Avenues Walk and Jackson Sqaure to get Marilee's views and thoughts on TOD's as well as the planned JRTC in Downtown. Also at the meeting that lasted all day were folks from the JEDC and the City Planning Department. From what I know James really wanted to go to the meeting in Orlando, but could not make it because of today's meeting. I agree there should have been someone there from Jacksonville. Maybe they can make the meeting in Charlotte that will focus on the same issues. I also here James and Scott will be meeting with FEC officials at the highest levels very soon to discuss commuter rail and Amtrak.
interesting...how did you hera this?
I heard that the meeting with Ms. Utter was today...I was invited but had some other planning things to attend too.
Ock/Stephen...in a room full of almost 300 poeople, how can you be sure that nobody from jax. was there?
Quote from: stephendare on May 22, 2009, 06:41:51 PM
As cool as Reality Check might have been, it simply doesnt have the same impact as the billions in buildout that Jacksonville is missing out on.
Correct me if Im wrong, but how often do all those people together in the same place?
Not often, is my guess.
ok...you're wrong...Reality Check got 400+ regional leaders together...to talk about how our region grows over the next 50 years....its a good bit bigger than Amtrak, HSR, or rail in general.
It's what you all have been talking about...getting together and developing one vision!
BTW...my firm has been involved in HSR since 2001...and our main Prolject Manager wasn't at yesterday's rail meeting...so clearly not every rail planner in FL was there!
(http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r296/punkymonkey29/FlyingMonkey2.jpg)
No frankly NOBODY from Jacksonville was there... Just us "Flying Monkeys".
We could tell who was and wasn't there as they had an open sign in and not a Northeast Floridian in the bunch.
Is Reality Check funded with $8 Billion in Federal give-away money? Not being my usual smart ass here, I wonder of all the Federal money floating out of the stimulus, what does Reality Check bring to our bank. Please understand I realize that both the $8 Billion for HSR and another $8 for Amtrak, and being told we top the chart for bucks, sounded pretty good to me.
Now as for the attendance, they did say Charlotte had a disappointing attendance... It was held Wednesday. It was THAT meeting Jax should have been in, but according to my inside voices, we didn't attend it either. We are the hub of TWO of the Southeast HSR lines (into Georgia). According to the Federal RSVP "This workshop is for all stake holders in all railroad regions of the United States..." Uh maybe Johnny boy can't read?
OCKLAWAHA
I wonder how much would it cost to upgrade the existing rail line between Tampa & Orlando to 110mph? Also, why not run HSR and commuter services on the same corridor? In other words, express trains with limited stops and others that take the same route but make stops in additional communities like Brandon, Plant City, Auburndale, Four Corners/Haines City, Lake Buena Vista, etc.
QuoteFlorida makes pitch for federal money for high-speed train
By Dan Tracy | Sentinel Staff Writer
4:30 PM EDT, May 21, 2009
It was billed as a workshop to answer questions about the Obama administration's plans to build a high-speed rail network across the country.
But Florida officials Thursday turned it into a pitch for up to $2 billion in federal money to pay for a 90-mile link between Orlando International Airport and Tampa with a train capable of going at least 110 mph.
"Send us the money, and we'll start digging," Lee Chira, chairman of the Florida High Speed Authority, told federal transit managers gathered at a hotel near OIA.
After the session, Karen Rae, a deputy administrator with the Federal Rail Administration, said she liked what Florida offers, but she stopped short of an endorsement.
"Clearly, I see Florida having a lot potential. But we'll wait until we see all the applications," she said.
Rae was on the second leg of a seven-stop tour of states and regions seeking money for possible high-speed rail projects.
Ten areas have been declared eligible by the government. Besides Florida, other likely applicants include California, North Carolina, the Pacific Northwest and Pennsylvania.
As much as $8 billion is up for grabs as part of the nearly $800 billion economic stimulus package approved earlier this year by the Congress. Rae said the Obama administration may start awarding grants by the end of the year.
The idea is to create a series of fast trains that can relieve congested highways and airports across the nation, as well as put people to work.
Rae compared it with the massive construction of the interstate highway system started in the 1950s by President Eisenhower.
Stephanie Kopelousos, secretary of the Florida Department of Transportation, said the Tampa- Orlando corridor â€" which would include stops in Lakeland and the Orange County Convention Center â€" would lead to at least 25,000 jobs.
It would be built largely in the median of Interstate 4, which bisects the state, connecting Daytona with Orlando and Tampa.
Florida has longed for a train that would run between its major cities since the 1970s. It has seen several efforts fail, most recently in 2003, when former Gov. Jeb Bush successfully led an effort to repeal a constitutional amendment mandating a Miami-Orlando-Tampa route.
Before that try was aborted, the high-speed rail authority had completed several crucial tasks, including conducting an environmental impact study and selected two top bidders to build and operate the train.
That has prompted Chira, a former Orange County commissioner, to say that Florida is the farthest along of any high-speed proposal.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-high-speed-rail-052109,0,7194067.story
So other than our private group Jax missed the 8 billion dollar meetings Wednesday and Friday. Tufsu1 it has got to be tough making excuses for the JTA, Mayor , City Council, MPO, JEDC ect, ect , ect. Seriously our city couldn't possibly sent delegations to two events on the same day or one delegation on two different days out of the question. My goodness Ock nailed it when he described Jacksonville's evolution into 5 minute Highway pit stop. Just a place to hold up signs that tell you how far the Mouse is.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 23, 2009, 07:41:30 AM
I wonder how much would it cost to upgrade the existing rail line between Tampa & Orlando to 110mph? Also, why not run HSR and commuter services on the same corridor? In other words, express trains with limited stops and others that take the same route but make stops in additional communities like Brandon, Plant City, Auburndale, Four Corners/Haines City, Lake Buena Vista, etc.
The answer to that question is more than the new line....there are many crossings that would need to be closed or grade-separated...plus all new alignments in areas like downtown Lakeland where the existing curves make even semi-high speed service impossible.
The study we did about 7 years ago showed that the best we could hope for on the existing line was the typical Amtrak high-speed definition of 79mph....and even that was only in limited places.
That said, I think rail service that can at least be competitive time-wise with autos (meaning it needs to average about 60mph) would be good enough.
Many curves in those orange groves (what's left of them) can be adjusted, and track can be super elevated (banked) so that a train leans into the curve with a complex transition formula. That plus overpasses and fences, and equipment that is FRA compliant would make a huge difference. Less stops on express service would also change the times. Many of the new HSR trains are tilt-trains meaning they can take these old flat curves much faster then the current Amtrak equipment. All of this would be much quicker to impliment then the I-4 alignment.
According to Doc Dockery, current Amtrak and current planned Florida HSR won't be able to mix AT ALL, as Florida wants NON-COMPLIANT HSR. Buddy go ahead and try this one, it will last until two trains have a (* see note) cornfield meet, then the FRA will come down like thunder on top of us. I-4 is Stupid (encourages sprawl, who lives on I-4?) but NON-COMPLIANT HSR is INSANE!
OCKLAWAHA
(* Cornfield meet: Railroad for a head on collision. So called for an infamous traveling show that would wreck trains as a circus act. One such show with thousands watching had the misfortune of a boiler explosion. Thousand pound pieces of locomotive showerd down on the crowd... Many never went home! This act was held in a cornfield, thus the name)
^Why non FRA compliant technology?
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 23, 2009, 09:38:24 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 23, 2009, 07:41:30 AM
I wonder how much would it cost to upgrade the existing rail line between Tampa & Orlando to 110mph? Also, why not run HSR and commuter services on the same corridor? In other words, express trains with limited stops and others that take the same route but make stops in additional communities like Brandon, Plant City, Auburndale, Four Corners/Haines City, Lake Buena Vista, etc.
The answer to that question is more than the new line....there are many crossings that would need to be closed or grade-separated...plus all new alignments in areas like downtown Lakeland where the existing curves make even semi-high speed service impossible.
The study we did about 7 years ago showed that the best we could hope for on the existing line was the typical Amtrak high-speed definition of 79mph....and even that was only in limited places.
That said, I think rail service that can at least be competitive time-wise with autos (meaning it needs to average about 60mph) would be good enough.
If a brand new line is built in the middle of I-4, what would stop it from offering both express and local service?
http://www.youtube.com/v/Tpl4Cr3-Tm0
So you are saying this event did not have legos or link-n-logs at all??? All they brought to the table was 8 billion dollars???
I bet all the other Mayors and city officials from central and south Florida are pretty steamed.
All along we have been crying for some attention from the Mayor and all we needed where some legos or a Thomas the train set and we could have gotten Peyton and the Governor too. Who would have thunk it.
(http://www.dolfmeister.com/interchange/images/stories/layout/lego_train03w.jpg)
(http://www.maxwolf.com/neuchatel/PhotoAlbum/London/images/London_Lego_Train_Small_10090006_512.jpg)
(http://edp.org/Germany/Legoland/LegolandS.jpg)
QuoteHillsborough panel backs high-speed rail from Tampa
By RICH SHOPES
rshopes@tampatrib.com
Published: May 19, 2009
TAMPA - Hillsborough County's Transportation Task Force is backing a high-speed rail plan linking Tampa and Orlando.
The task force approved a motion Monday to formally endorse the project, one of several across the nation that emerged after the federal government proposed that $8 billion in stimulus funds go toward high-speed rail.
The Federal Railroad Administration is holding workshops across the country to gauge support for high-speed rail projects.
The motion by task force members comes as the railroad administration is set to meet Thursday in Orlando to consider Florida's plan to connect Tampa, Orlando, Miami and Jacksonville.
The first leg of that plan, Tampa to Orlando, would cost about $2 billion.
Ray Chiaramonte, executive director of the county's Metropolitan Planning Organization, said the Tampa-Orlando leg is farther along than others across the nation and could begin in 18 to 24 months if funding is in place. About a dozen other states are floating their own proposals.
"We have an advantage for a short period of time over the other proposals with the work that has already been accomplished," he said.
In addition, Chiaramonte said the system could complement a future light-rail program in the Tampa area.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/may/19/na-hillsborough-panel-backs-high-speed-rail-from-t/news-metro/ (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/may/19/na-hillsborough-panel-backs-high-speed-rail-from-t/news-metro/)
OK Jax delegation
looks like Seattle and California are next but Houston on May 29th should be doable.
http://www.bytrain.org/pdf/fra_hispeed_intercity_pass_rail_wkshops.pdf (http://www.bytrain.org/pdf/fra_hispeed_intercity_pass_rail_wkshops.pdf)
Dear Mayor Peyton, Adam Hollingsworth and JTA
ATTEND the HSR roll out in Houston. This will be for the Gulf Coast Corridor. Eventually this line will extend from San Antoino - Houston - New Orleans - Birmingham - Atlanta, It will have a dead end stub New Orleans to Mobile.
Mobile is not that far from Pensacola. It's not a stretch that if we petitioned for a new short route from Mobile to Pensacola, then beyond to Tallahassee and terminate in Jacksonville. Thus like Atlanta we would anchor two of the HSR routes proposed in the South. We apply for FLDOT to bend the Florida HSR route from Gainesville to Lake City into Jacksonville, and we would anchor all three southern projects. More then ANY other American City, including Chicago.
We won't get a push without a strong PULL. Go for it JTA! COJ!
OCKLAWAHA
Could we build an HSR from Atlanta to Jax and offer seats at what airlines do now? Airtran is $59 with 3 weeks notice. Can we pay for it somehow?
Airtran lost $274 million last year.
Hey at least someone did stand up at the Reality Check meeting and ask a question in front of hundreds of people about rail transit and how it relates to TOD......geez I wonder who that could have been?
What about if I live in Macon or Valdosta and I want to get to Atlanta or Jacksonville? Will AirTran get me to either destination? With rail, the stops along a route can be just as important as the end points.
QuoteAirtran lost $274 million last year.
Did they get a 1 BILLION dollar handout last year? And have they had subsidies every year from the Congress? Sure they had the 9/11 help, but they paid it back, and they are still flying and finding ways to grow their revenue. The 274 million loss was mostly due to fuel prices rising and they lost 450 million due to fuel. Did Amtrak see the same increase?
Amtrak should be sold off, make the responsible for their own business plan. They are no better than Government Motors. We will repeat the same error there with them.
QuoteWhat about if I live in Macon or Valdosta and I want to get to Atlanta or Jacksonville? Will AirTran get me to either destination? With rail, the stops along a route can be just as important as the end points.
Sure, but getting to Jacksonville from Orlando takes you through 3 stops and more than 3 hours. The only persons who stop that often in a car are those with small bladders. Most people can make that same trip in a car in less than 2 hours. Same deal with the Macon, Valdosta to Atlanta or Jax.
If you live in Macon or Valdosta, you probably don't want to go to either city either.
So now you are making excuses for AirTran?
Of course not, but no airlines, that I can see that service jacksonville received a bailout of 1 billion bucks last year and all the airlines have shareholders, while Amtrak has doormats, you and me and the idiots in DC.
Sell off Amtrak and let it live or die on its own, real capitalism.
A few points:
1. The airlines are serving a different market than amtrak will, in my opinion. If I need to get from Jacksonville to LA, I probably will fly. However, If I need to get from Jacksonville to Orlando or Miami, I'd consider Rail if it was offered to me.
2. Let's not pretend the aviation industry is not subsidized.
3. Since fuel WILL go up (does anyone REALLY doubt me here), rail has proven over and over to be more economical and efficient.
4. Should we require every transit system to be self sufficient.
5. Rail is (IMO) best utilized for those mid major markets. From Jacksonville, fly me to Fayetteville, NC. Good luck. 90 minutes before the flight, 1 hour flight to Atlanta, 90 minute connection, 90 minute flight to Fayetteville, 30 minutes to retrieve bags. I can take Amtrak for about $70, and it would take the same amount of time. Plus, Amtrak is better positioned to deal with holiday travel ebbs and flows. Yes, Fayetteville is a small market, but there are a lot of them out there that people need to get to (especially in my line of work). In addition, they offer a lot of discounts, such as children, etc.
I am certainly not an Amtrak expert, and I am a loyal Delta customer (I'm a Medallion Frequent Flyer with them), but they both have their place. Amtrak has been mismanaged for a LONG time, but that doesn't mean get rid of them.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 28, 2009, 11:24:17 PM
Most people can make that same trip in a car in less than 2 hours.
You apparently drive a LOT faster than both me and the guy at MapQuest who knows how long it takes to get everywhere in america.
And BTW, apparently that road that you took to orlando was free, right?
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 28, 2009, 11:31:14 PM
Of course not, but no airlines, that I can see that service jacksonville received a bailout of 1 billion bucks last year and all the airlines have shareholders, while Amtrak has doormats, you and me and the idiots in DC.
Sell off Amtrak and let it live or die on its own, real capitalism.
Real capitalism? The government built the airports, built the roads to the airports, operates air traffic control, and is responsible for security and the airlines pay for what they use via fees.
With real capitalism, the airlines would have to lay out the capital to build the infrastructure, pay the interest on the loans, then hope they can make their money back over the next few decades. All while charging $59 for a seat.
QuoteAmtrak has been mismanaged for a LONG time, but that doesn't mean get rid of them.
Good points, not sure about Fayetteville, but if I had a choice between driving and taking Amtrak to Miami, I'd drive every time. Amtrak takes 9 hours from Jax to Miami. No need that it takes you to lakeland then down to Miami from halfway across the state. It is what it is. Again, Jax to Orlando is 3 hours versus 2 in a car, if that many.
Not looking to get rid of Amtrak, just make them self-sufficient. Live or die on their own revenue. Try it, it is a refreshing bit of capitalism. Its the basis of life in America, yet amtrak is the most socialistic transportation system in America.
If we are scared about GM getting 20 billion and now another 30 billion, what lesson does that teach us for the future of Amtrak? If we are going to spend 1 billion on additional funding, what number of jobs are created for that 1 billion of funding? We keep losing 600,000 jobs per month, how many of those are being replaced by Amtrak's funding and new jobs?
50 billion for a smalle GM, with fewer workers, its a heckuva lesson for us to have to swallow, but so is keeping a dying business on the american taxpayer tab since the mid 70s. When does it end? Why expand something that has yet to live off its own revenue?
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 28, 2009, 11:47:37 PM
Why expand something that has yet to live off its own revenue?
Interstates?
QuoteReal capitalism? The government built the airports, built the roads to the airports, operates air traffic control, and is responsible for security and the airlines pay for what they use via fees.
With real capitalism, the airlines would have to lay out the capital to build the infrastructure, pay the interest on the loans, then hope they can make their money back over the next few decades. All while charging $59 for a seat.
Please ask Amtrak to pick me up at my door step, so that I can bypass the use of the local roads, local transportation systems, yes, subsidized by the feds, but also through a federal gas tax, a state gas tax and a local gas tax. I think I pay enough in local taxes for the roads I use to get me to my 59 dollar flight.
I seem to remember the feds built all the rail stations too, all transportation in America is a racket, its all taxed and double-taxed, but some of it is more fair than others.
When was the last time Amtrak paid back any of the yearly subsidies?
QuoteInterstates?
Your point?
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 28, 2009, 11:47:37 PMNot looking to get rid of Amtrak, just make them self-sufficient. Live or die on their own revenue. Try it, it is a refreshing bit of capitalism. Its the basis of life in America, yet amtrak is the most socialistic transportation system in America.
Again, should we privatize the MTA in New York and the CTA in Chicago, and let them live or die? Then when MTA dies, figure out how New York City should deal with the extra 7.8 million car trips per day?
QuoteAgain, should we privatize the MTA in New York and the CTA in Chicago, and let them live or die? Then when MTA dies, figure out how New York City should deal with the extra 7.8 million car trips per day?
Those are issues in New York and Chicago for their citizens to decide.
My point is that people here want to expand Amtrak, which received the largest subsidy it has ever received, again for another consecutive year. Never lives on its own revenues, but it follows a socialistic pattern in the government to bail out dysfunctional transportation systems.
Money does not grow on trees, and while the government is printing more and more money every day, that money in our pockets loses more and more value. At some point it has to stop.
Quoteauthor=mtraininjax link=topic=5094.msg79751#msg79751 date=1243567156]
Did they get a 1 BILLION dollar handout last year? And have they had subsidies every year from the Congress? Sure they had the 9/11 help, but they paid it back, and they are still flying and finding ways to grow their revenue. The 274 million loss was mostly due to fuel prices rising and they lost 450 million due to fuel. Did Amtrak see the same increase?
Your right Mtrain, Airlines didn't get a Billion dollars last year, they got 28,455,000,000. (USDOT 2008) and NO they haven't and never will pay it back, we don't even ask them to. You do realize that before the huge 20%+ increases in Amtrak ridership, every Amtrak ticket was subsidized about $32 dollars, and EVERY airline ticket $38 dollars! In fact if one goes to the USDOT or the National Transportation database, you'll see that SOME airline tickets are subsidized as much as $500 dollars under the "Essential Air Program". Now if you want to keep bitching, ask yourself why you and I are paying nearly $500 bucks for some guy to fly into Minot ND, when the EMPIRE BUILDER breaks even, is headed toward profit, and Minot is one of the most patronized stops on the prairie?
Don't sweat the small stuff MTrain, anybody that hates children and dogs can't be all bad... OCKLAWAHA
Ock, welcome to the debate, I have no idea where you pull the numbers, but they seem off the wall, just as the light rail props do.
Come back to me when we see passenger rail actually reporting results to shareholders. Until then, your on the snooze button.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 29, 2009, 12:26:54 AM
Ock, welcome to the debate, I have no idea where you pull the numbers, but they seem off the wall, just as the light rail props do.
Come back to me when we see passenger rail actually reporting results to shareholders. Until then, your on the snooze button.
Oh damn MTrain, I bet you say that to all of the boys. I'm going to miss that little freckle of yours, and just when I was starting to get cozy with you! OCKLAWAHA
Mtrain, I don't really understand what your argument is.
First you say Amtrak should make money the way the airlines do and if it can't, it should be shut down.
Then when it was pointed out that the airlines are losing money, you list the excuses as to why the airlines are real capitalists despite the losses.
After that, you shifted your argument to subsidies and how Amtrak unfairly gets more than the rest, which is false.
Now you believe that all transportation is a racket?
QuoteMtrain, I don't really understand what your argument is.
Nor have I... they shift continuously...
Do you really think the way to impress the Feds is three guys from Jacksonville at a public meeting in South Florida? Give me a break. It is across the table in Jacksonville or in Washington. JTA, FDOT and Mayor Peyton know that. Obviously the three smartest men in the room that day didn't. Why not head straight to DC with empty suitcases and bring back some FTA money ready and for the asking?
Did you notice there is no high speed rail link between Orlando and Jacksonville?
QuoteDo you really think the way to impress the Feds is three guys from Jacksonville at a public meeting in South Florida? Give me a break. It is across the table in Jacksonville or in Washington. JTA, FDOT and Mayor Peyton know that. Obviously the three smartest men in the room that day didn't. Why not head straight to DC with empty suitcases and bring back some FTA money ready and for the asking?
(Regarding this event) Because the FTA had the Florida meeting held in Orlando (centralized location) to help decide how HSR
and intercity passenger rail stimulus money would be best used in Florida.
QuoteDid you notice there is no high speed rail link between Orlando and Jacksonville?
Yes, this is pretty clear. However, its also clear that an intercity link will also have to be provided and that Jax is the rail gateway to Florida. All of this just adds to the case of why its important for Jax to show up at these events.
transitlover - I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. My point is that these pople are making a point to come to a convenient locale for Florida Transit Authorities to come to, and we said, "No, that's okay". I know they were at the Reality Check event, but these folks can't multi-task?
Bottom line - someone should have gone besides Metro Jacksonville (Jacksonville's only representation).
Finally, welcome to the site transitlover - I look forward to your input to the discucssion!
QuoteAre we really trying to make the claim that our planners themselves need to be taught how to think about these issues? All of our planners?
The planners don't need to be taught how to think about these issues, but the planners aren't the ones who make the final decisions - that is up to the elected officials. The planners can make recommendations based on their professional knowledge but if the leaders who make the final decisions don't buy in to that recommendation then it is useless. Part of the purpose of Reality Check was to allow the community leaders and elected officials to look at growth in a different way and think about new ways in which the area can grow in the future.
The lunch was $45 for anyone not involved in the morning event....the 200+ leader-types who were there that morning (along with about 100 other folks) were given lunch.
And to add to what Cline said, many of the planners at the event served as table facilitators...which gave them a great opportunity to interact with the actual decision-makers
You are partially correct...anyone could be nominated....but that doen't mean you were selected to participate.
And yes, the lunch and afternoon event were open to all...for $45
As for ULI....I was a member for several years and one of my co-workers is currently....below is from their website....
ULI was founded in 1936 as a nonprofit, nonpartisan research and educational institute under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. ULI represents over 40,000 members worldwide, and has experienced tremendous growth in the last few years.
I was nominated and not selected....becuase they didn't want too many practicing planners actually playing the game.
Is that good enough for you?
yes...because I paid $45 and attended the lunch and afternoon session....but I did not participate in the gameing exercise in the morning....is it really that hard to understand!
Ok...last time
Approximately 300 people played the game in the morning
Around 450 attended the lunch and afternoon session....this is where Marilee Utter spoke as well as folks like John Delaney, Brian Teeple, and Bob Rhodes....the results from the morning session were presented and some voting on preferences took place.
The info. from both the morning and afternoon can be seen in the PPT on the website below.
http://www.realitycheckfirstcoast.com/
The pics from the tables arefrom the AM...the summary statistiucs are from the PM
To my knowledge, no agreement was signed....that comes down the road
Here's the agenda from that day...if it helps
7:30 am Continental Breakfast and Registration
8:00 am Welcome to Reality Check
8:05 am A Look Ahead: Morning Keynote Presentation
Ed McMahon, ULI Charles Fraser Senior Resident Fellow for Sustainable Development
8:45 am Rules of the Game
9:00 - 11:30 am Reality Check First Coast Exercise
12:00 pm Luncheon (in the Ballroom)
12:30 pm Luncheon Keynote Presentation
Marilee Utter, ULI
President, Citiventure Associates, LLC
1:15 pm Morning Session Overview
1:45 pm Results of the Morning Session
2:15 pm Participant Polling
2:30 pm Next Steps
2:45 pm Closing Remarks
3:00 pm Adjourn
yes that would be great...please do!
in the meantime, you may want to brush up on ULI...and check their membership rates.
http://www.uli.org/sitecore/content/ULI2Home/JoinULI/ULIMemberTypesAndBenefits.aspx
Does this seem like some sort of "New Deal non-profit" group to you?
Quote from: stephendare on June 02, 2009, 01:09:15 PM
Here were the local attendees to the Reality Check Luncheon.
Which cost 45 dollars to be a part of.
Some very nice, interested, and capable people on this list. I know quite a few of them.
However, it boils down to mostly the standard reps for government entities, contractors, architects, engineers, developers, consultants, lawyers, financiers, and a few other larger community entities and vested interests. I couldn't readily identify reps from a wide range of civic and neighborhood groups/associations, environmental groups, every day citizens, "counter-growth" groups, or other areas of our community that might stand up and say something dramatically different than the "conventional wisdom" already floating around here or that would seriously challenge the status quo.
Can anyone confirm otherwise? If not, I think this makes these confabs less meaningful and representative of all the options we may have, or, to cut to the chase, a "rubber stamp" for an existing agenda.
the 300 people who played the game were a mix of public, private, and non-profit sectors...and the mix did include folks from often-opposing points of view (like the Riverkeeper and JAXPORT)...they were mixed up at the tables (along with bringing people in from each of the 7 counties)....the result, from what I've heard, was very lively discussions and compromise....all a good thing.
The lunch and aftrnoon event drew more of the "typical" ULI folks - developers, engineers, architects, etc.
We need to get away from the Reality Check vs the Fed HSR meeting vs the TOD tour of downtown. Attending two of these functions is not in the area code of good enough. Delegations from this city should have attended all of these things. One on One meetings are probably more important but the group events are part of the process too.
P.S. Reality Check needs a Reality Check if they want diverse input and do not invite MetroJacksonville.com IMO.
I think it was stated earlier that Reality Check did not invite people, but that individuals or groups could nominate people to participate - did anyone from MetroJacksonville nominate themselves, or other members of MJ?
Thanks Charles I missed that.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 02, 2009, 10:27:56 PM
I think it was stated earlier that Reality Check did not invite people, but that individuals or groups could nominate people to participate - did anyone from MetroJacksonville nominate themselves, or other members of MJ?
If these events are not mass advertised/promoted and are set up as all-day, week-day affairs, and cost more than a few dollars for a lunch, you are not going to get anyone other than those I mentioned earlier attending, i.e. those with very vested interests in development and who are compensated by their employers for attending. Most community activists are volunteers working on their own time.
These events discriminate against the abilities of us "common folk" to attend and the proof is in the pudding. How many attendees were there and NOT paid by their employers for the time at the event? And, so it is for almost all "public forums" in this City. "Citizen Joe and Jane" not only don't know about the event, but couldn't afford to miss work and attend anyway. That is not an inclusive, community based exercise.
Here is an idea: Set this "game" up on the internet using virtual collaboration software and let all comers give their ideas of where to put the Legos, etc. Make people pre-register with their real names and some verifiable demographic info so the game isn't "stacked" by ballot stuffers and is assured diverse input. Want discussion? Set up a thread or threads for the game a la these threads or maybe, a real-time chat room. Run the game at several different times - during a week day, a week night, and on a weekend day. Add up the sum total results and feed them back to the participants to endorse or write "minority" opinions.
The event was not supposed to be for the "common folks"....on purpose.
From the beginning, Reality Check was set up for the "grasstops" vs. the "grassroots"...in essence, community leaders....without their buy-in, us "common folk" can yap all we want, but nothing will change.
Moving foward, the Northeast Florida Regional Council will be taking the Reality Check process to the people....through public meetings in each of the seven counties....after an extensive public participation process, a singular regional vision will be formed....and then the leaders will be asked to sign a community compact, which will be the basis for local government plan changes.
STJR...your idea of an on-line game is good....maybe you should contact the NEFRC and suggest it
stephen...I know this may come as a shock to you....but ULI is not one of my clients
The event was put on by ULI using their rules....perhaps you should look them up!
the MPO, NEFRC, SJRWMD, JTA, etc. were sponsors of the event....along with many private firms.
Listen, I'm not the one who was trying to make ULI out as some sort of new-deal "feel good" non-prfit....they are predominantly comprised of real estate developers!
nope...sorry...don't do any work for JTA either....feel free to call and check if you'd like