What do the following countries have in commmon?
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
They are the top 15 countries for healthcare according to the WHO AND all of them have some sort of public, free, government provided healthcare. Either tax-funded, single-payer health system or mandatory, employment-based insurance.
So why can they do it, and yet the strongest country in the world can't?
Quoteall of them have some sort of public, free, government provided healthcare.
Of course none of it is free... but the U.S. also has
some sort of public, free, government provided healthcare... right?
Yes, but in those countries it's free for every single citizen regardless of ability to pay.
Somebody pays for it Crys...
DUH,
Just like we all pay for the fire department. I'd rather pay for something better than we currently have.
Get over the somebody pays for it mantra.........
I will if you stop calling it free... :)
Because it IS FREE. You wont pay taxes AND for healthcare coverage.
OK crys... it free. ::)
Awfully narrowly limited, that 'free' healthcare:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Public_health (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Public_health)
Quote
The French healthcare system was ranked first worldwide by the World Health Organization in 1997.[56] Care is generally free for people affected by chronic diseases (Affections de longues durées) such as cancers, AIDS or Cystic Fibrosis. Average life expectancy at birth is 79.73 years.
Further,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_France)
Quote
In 2005, France spent 11.2% of GDP on health care, or US$3,926 per capita, a figure much higher than the average spent by countries in Europe. Approximately 77% of health expenditures are covered by government.[2]
and
Quote
The entire population must pay compulsory health insurance. The insurers are non-profit independent agencies not linked to the State. A premium is deducted from all employees' pay automatically. An employee pays 0.75% of salary to this insurance, and the employer pays an amount to the value of 12.8% of the employee's salary. Those earning less than 6,600 euros per year do not make health insurance payments.
Free looks awfully expensive. Especially to the employers. If we adopt the French model, companies will have to pay the equivalent of 12.8% of the employee's salary *on top of* the other percentages they're supposed to pay to Social Security/Medicare/whatever.
Expect LOTS of layoffs if anything like this makes it into reality on this side of the Pond; that'll cut right in to the bottom line of small AND large businesses. Thus shrinking the income tax pool, thus increasing the unemployement rate/benefits paid out, thus further straining the (im)balance of already-crisis we have.
Free my arse. *Somebody's* paying for it.
QuoteThe French healthcare system was ranked first worldwide by the World Health Organization in 1997.[56] Care is generally free for people affected by chronic diseases (Affections de longues durées) such as cancers, AIDS or Cystic Fibrosis. Average life expectancy at birth is 79.73 years.
About 99% of French residents are covered by the national health insurance scheme. A baby born in the United States in 2004 will live an average of 77.9 years.
QuoteIn 2005, France spent 11.2% of GDP on health care, or US$3,926 per capita, a figure much higher than the average spent by countries in Europe. Approximately 77% of health expenditures are covered by government.[2]
Yes that is I high amount.......To bad US GDP on health care is currently
$6,096QuoteThe entire population must pay compulsory health insurance. The insurers are non-profit independent agencies not linked to the State. A premium is deducted from all employees' pay automatically. An employee pays 0.75% of salary to this insurance, and the employer pays an amount to the value of 12.8% of the employee's salary. Those earning less than 6,600 euros per year do not make health insurance payments.
According to the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Educational Trust, premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers’ earnings since 1999. The average employee contribution to company-provided health insurance has increased more than 120 percent since 2000. Average out-of-pocket costs for deductibles, co-payments for medications, and co-insurance for physician and hospital visits rose 115 percent during the same period.
And here's something even more interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States#Health_care_payment
Quote
Around 84.7% of citizens have some form of health insurance; either through their employer or the employer of their spouse or parent (59.3%), purchased individually (8.9%), or provided by government programs (27.8%; there is some overlap in these figures).[34] All government health care programs have restricted eligibility, and there is no national system of health insurance which guarantees that all citizens have access to health care. Americans without health insurance coverage at some time during 2007 totaled about 15.3% of the population, or 45.7 million people.[34]
More than three-quarters of the population already have healthcare! Listening to Uni-Care proponents, you'd think the number was so low that *only* the "rich" people had any health coverage whatsoever. By that rationale, employed = rich. Interesting indeed.
AND:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_the_United_States#Health_care_spending
Quote
Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 15.2% of GDP, second only to the tiny Marshall Islands among all United Nations member nations.[1] The health share of GDP is expected to continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5 percent of GDP by 2017.[19][20]
The Office of the Actuary (OACT) of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services publishes data on total health care spending in the United States, including both historical levels and future projections.[21] In 2007, the U.S. spent $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person, up from $2.1 trillion, or $7,026 per capita, the previous year.[22]
^"National Health Expenditures, Forecast summary and selected tables", Office of the Actuary in the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, 2008. Accessed March 20, 2008.
The U.S. is spending more on healthcare than France.
Quote from: CrysG on May 21, 2009, 09:45:54 AM
QuoteIn 2005, France spent 11.2% of GDP on health care, or US$3,926 per capita, a figure much higher than the average spent by countries in Europe. Approximately 77% of health expenditures are covered by government.[2]
Precisely! Thank you for confirming that it is not, indeed, "free."
Quote
The average employee contribution to company-provided health insurance has increased more than 120 percent since 2000.
1. And since many companies pay a share usually equal to what the employee pays into said coverage, that also means that their costs have increased by the same amount.
2. I bitch and moan every time my premium goes up. But I'm informed about it, and I have options within my plan - Basic, Standard, Premium, etc. I'm pretty healthy so I can get by on bare-bones Basic coverage. But at least I have it. I will gladly pay the bi-weekly $$ and get the $20 co-pay to my primary physician should I need him. I'm not rich. I'm barely middle-class. But I've got insurance. I pay for it. It's great. I'm not wanting.
QuoteCurrent estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 15.2% of GDP, second only to the tiny Marshall Islands among all United Nations member nations.[1] The health share of GDP is expected to continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5 percent of GDP by 2017.[19][20]
The Office of the Actuary (OACT) of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services publishes data on total health care spending in the United States, including both historical levels and future projections.[21] In 2007, the U.S. spent $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person, up from $2.1 trillion, or $7,026 per capita, the previous year.[22]
^"National Health Expenditures, Forecast summary and selected tables", Office of the Actuary in the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, 2008. Accessed March 20, 2008.
The U.S. is spending more on healthcare than France.
I think you just proved my point, we are spending
twice as much on healthcare to cover only 84.7% of citizens than France and they cover 99% of their citizens.
Fair. We've proven each others' points:
It's not free. The employers will have to pay a share, we will have to pay a share - either through direct federal taxation or through additional income taxation. Probably both.
Kind of like it is now!
BridgeTroll's mantra of "somebody pays for it" is spot on.
I still fail to see how making it government-run is going to make it better. The US spends more on healthcare than France. Your source quoted lifespan as the single barometer against which rankings are made. How about quality of life? Is the two years' difference that significant?
If it was a decade's difference that'd be one thing. It's not. I also fail to see how that makes the US so 'behind the times,' as it were.
Quote1. And since many companies pay a share usually equal to what the employee pays into said coverage, that also means that their costs have increased by the same amount.
Good now you understand where your raise went. You do have a basic understanding that your company isn't going to eat the rise in cost and they wont turn the cost over to the shareholders right?
Quote2. I bitch and moan every time my premium goes up. But I'm informed about it, and I have options within my plan - Basic, Standard, Premium, etc. I'm pretty healthy so I can get by on bare-bones Basic coverage. But at least I have it. I will gladly pay the bi-weekly $$ and get the $20 co-pay to my primary physician should I need him. I'm not rich. I'm barely middle-class. But I've got insurance. I pay for it. It's great. I'm not wanting.
I'm glad for you, you can get coverage and you can afford to pay for it. At any given moment, the United States Census shows, 47 million people are uninsured. Some 25 million more are underinsured, meaning their benefits aren't sufficient to meet their needs, according to a recent study by the Commonwealth Fund, a health care policy foundation in New York City. Combine those two groups and the total suggests that almost one fourth of Americans don't have adequate health benefits. And of those people 18,000 will die every year due to lack of insurance.
QuoteHow about quality of life? Is the two years' difference that significant?
Personally I like to have 2 extra years but I'll talk about the quality of life. The 2008 Quality of Life Index released by International Living defined quality of life in countries based on cost of living, leisure, culture, economy, environment, freedom, health, infrastructure, risk, safety, and climate. Overall total scores ranked France on top.
No they won't. They're going to die because they will choose to NOT go and get looked at. If you go to an emergency room, they *have* to treat you, regardless of your ability to pay or insurance. And the average wait in an ER here is still way less than Canada and a lot of EU countries.
I don't buy your argument.
Further, I know exactly where my raise went. It came to me. My company ate more of the increase in healthcare than it passed on to us. It's in the financial report that they disclose on a regular basis.
Not all companies are like you picture.
EDIT: Under universal healthcare, because my company is going to be forced to pay so much more for my State-mandated health insurance, I might not even get a raise because so much more of the company's revenue will be shunted into FedCare. One more reason I like the way it is now! I like my raises and bonuses.
And what exactly is 'underinsured?' Because I have the 'bare-bones' health pacakge as my coverage, am I considered 'underinsured' compared to my co-worker who has the Premium package?
QuoteI'm glad for you, you can get coverage and you can afford to pay for it. At any given moment, the United States Census shows, 47 million people are uninsured. Some 25 million more are underinsured, meaning their benefits aren't sufficient to meet their needs, according to a recent study by the Commonwealth Fund, a health care policy foundation in New York City. Combine those two groups and the total suggests that almost one fourth of Americans don't have adequate health benefits. And of those people 18,000 will die every year due to lack of insurance.
Do you
NEED the Premium package? Then you aren't in the underinsured.
QuoteUnder universal healthcare, because my company is going to be forced to pay so much more for my State-mandated health insurance, I might not even get a raise because so much more of the company's revenue will be shunted into FedCare. One more reason I like the way it is now! I like my raises and bonuses.
In 2006, U.S. spending averaged $6,714 per person. The average resident of France spent $3,450. This year, U.S. spending is expected to near $8,000 per person, while French officials estimate spending there will come in below $5,000. Is your raise and bonus going to be $3264? If not then your raise and bonus will offset what your company-provided health insurance increased.
Quote from: CrysG on May 21, 2009, 08:48:00 AM
Because it IS FREE. You wont pay taxes AND for healthcare coverage.
Quote
The average resident of France spent $3,450.
So it's indeed not free.
QuoteNo they won't. They're going to die because they will choose to NOT go and get looked at. If you go to an emergency room, they *have* to treat you, regardless of your ability to pay or insurance.
And what do you think happens when they do go? The ER says no harm no foul? They charge the person who goes. About half of all personal bankruptcies in the United States are due to medical bills. Several studiesâ€"including two published by Harvard Medical School and the Health Affairs journalâ€"put the number of bankruptcies due to medical causes at approximately 50 percent.
Having no health insurance also often means that people will postpone necessary care and forego preventive care - such as childhood immunizations and routine check-ups-completely. Because the uninsured usually have no regular doctor and limited access to prescription medications, they are more likely to be hospitalized for health conditions that could have been avoided.
Delaying care for fear of medical bills is a downward spiral that leads to ultimately higher health care costs for all of us. More than one third of uninsured adults reported they have problems paying their bills, which helps explain why many of the uninsured don't seek out the care they need until the last minute. But when an uninsured person is in crisis and cannot pay, that burden falls upon the insured population, the hospitals, the doctors and the government. And these billions of dollars of "uncompensated care" drive up health insurance premiums for everyone.
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 21, 2009, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: CrysG on May 21, 2009, 08:48:00 AM
Because it IS FREE. You wont pay taxes AND for healthcare coverage.
Quote
The average resident of France spent $3,450.
So it's indeed not free.
France and the United States pay for their health care in different ways. Most U.S. health care spending is private. The government's share â€" what you pay for in taxes for Medicare, Medicaid, military and other government employees â€" is 46 percent. The rest is paid through insurance split between employers and workers, and in out-of-pocket expenses borne by consumers.
In France, national health insurance pushes the government's share of health care spending to 80 percent. Consumers and their employers pay for the rest through supplemental, private insurance and out-of-pocket expenses.
So in a sense, minus the differences in percentages paid by the different players of the game, they're not a whole lot different from each other. And neither are free.
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 21, 2009, 10:57:12 AM
So in a sense, minus the differences in percentages paid by the different players of the game, they're not a whole lot different from each other. And neither are free.
Want a difference? 99% of French citizen have health coverage vs. 87.9% of American's. If you said so yourself and there is no difference why not make the change so everyone can have what you already do?
In the 1990s, Congress and the President essentially forced Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the mortgage industry at large, to extend credit to people who could not conceivably afford to pay the mortgage payments for a house that they wanted to buy.
This was done under the guise of "extending the American Dream of home ownership to everyone." In other words, state-mandated equality. Keep in mind, Fannie and Freddie were Federal institutions. "The government" said 'anyone can buy a house, we'll cover you!" And look where the housing market and the larger economy is today because of it.
Where houses individually cost a couple hundred thousand dollars, imagine healthcare costs over the course of one's 'average lifespan' of 77 years. Conceivably much more than a couple of hundred-thousand dollars, right? That the government, and thus the taxpayer, will be responsible for.
And we've seen what a great job it's done for the housing market. All in the name of equality.
I'm not against equality at all. I am against having a financially-inept government run and dictate the terms of 'equalized' healthcare.
What does healthcare have to do with the mortgage industry?
You yourself said that cost is about the same and it's been proven that France's medical is better than the American system. Not everyone has the right to a house, but they do have the right to healthcare.
It has to do with the fact that it was the government who mandated that "everyone should be allowed equal access to own their own home." Because "it was the right thing to do." I.e., it was a vote-getting measure.
Just like "everyone should be allowed equal access to the same healthcare."
I'm not against people being able to get healthcare, as I've said repeatedly before. Please stop painting me as such and actually read what I'm saying. I AM against the government mandating it and running it.
To wit:
Why doesn't everyone have the right to a house? We're in America for goodness' sake. To not have a house is just indicative of how backwards and broken this country and its 'system' is. Even people in Slovenia can live in a house, and do it much more cheaply than here!
See how the same argument sounds with just one word changed?
And I did not say the cost was about the same. I pointed out that neither option is "free," as you'd claimed so insistently to BridgeTroll earlier.
I love the idea of a medicare + Supplemental insurance model. Before plan B of 06 and prescription cards of 06 the government proved it could provide quality health care. Granted after that medicare has been much less effective.
I think we should do it but I do not know if we can afford it( in fact I am very skeptical). I also worry that even if we put a good system in place some president will get his mad on for some nonwhite country and raid the funds of the Government health care system to prosecute his or her little war.
I support giving it a try and yet it scares me.
On a personal note the business I own provides health care ( we have reduced our contribution in the last year) my two chief competitors do not so I may profit from a national system.
Why doesn't everyone have the right to a plasma tv? We're in America for goodness' sake. To not have a plasma tv is just indicative of how backwards and broken this country and its 'system' is. Even people in Japan can have a plasma tv and do it much more cheaply than here!
See how the same argument sounds with just one word changed?
So do we all get our free plasma screen tv now?
Exactly my point.
So according to you we all the the basic right to freedom, health and a plasma tv? Since in your world a plasma is a need and not a want I'm willing to go out and buy you one. On one condition, you and your family go without healthcare of any sort for the next 20 years.
If you think that you, honestly will die without a plasma and can get 17,999 other to die without one then you've got a case.
Seriously? You missed the point entirely.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 21, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I love the idea of a medicare + Supplemental insurance model. Before plan B of 06 and prescription cards of 06 the government proved it could provide quality health care. Granted after that medicare has been much less effective.
I think we should do it but I do not know if we can afford it( in fact I am very skeptical). I also worry that even if we put a good system in place some president will get his mad on for some nonwhite country and raid the funds of the Government health care system to prosecute his or her little war.
I support giving it a try and yet it scares me.
On a personal note the business I own provides health care ( we have reduced our contribution in the last year) my two chief competitors do not so I may profit from a national system.
JeffreyS, thanks for your comment.
You seem well-informed.
How do the unemployment rate and economic growth rate in the countries listed in the original post compare with ours?
Also life expectancies are a bit lower here because we travel by automobile so much more than people in other developed countries. When auto accidents are factored out our life expectancy is the same or higher.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 21, 2009, 10:01:57 PM
How do the unemployment rate and economic growth rate in the countries listed in the original post compare with ours?
Also life expectancies are a bit lower here because we travel by automobile so much more than people in other developed countries. When auto accidents are factored out our life expectancy is the same or higher.
Oh yes the reason American's live shorter lives is due to our cars......The reason we live shorter lives has nothing to do with.....
QuoteAdults in the United States have one of the highest obesity rates in the world. Nearly a third of U.S. adults 20 years and older are obese, while about two-thirds are overweight, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.
or
QuoteA relatively high percentage of babies born in the U.S. die before their first birthday, compared with other industrialized nations. Forty countries, including Cuba, Taiwan and most of Europe had lower infant mortality rates than the U.S. in 2004. The U.S. rate was 6.8 deaths for every 1,000 live births. It was 13.7 for Black Americans, the same as Saudi Arabia.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-11-life-expectancy_N.htm