Metro Jacksonville gets new Signage on I-95
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/536743478_ooKYe-M-1.jpg)
Despite taking over 14 months (including many months of complete apathy by the City of Jacksonville), Metro Jacksonville's request to change the signs on I-95 downtown have finally been implemented.
Full Article:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-may-metro-jacksonville-gets-new-signage-on-i-95
Awesome work Steve.
Finally! Way to get things done!
That's great!
If there was ever an example for not giving up, this would be it. It may take a while, but it's possible to get things changed here in Jacksonville. Keep up the great work, everybody!
What's next? ;D
noticed these about a week ago....it often takes FDOT a long time to make sign changes...these are much better...way to go guys!
You know what I just thought about....those signs will probably be coming down once they start construction on that section of I-95.
Seems the drag was as much the city as FDOT. As someone who works in the public sector I can understand why these things drag on. There is so much red tape and bureaucracy to wade through it can get ridonkulous. What emerges from the tone of the emails though is that FDOT was open to the ideas and responsive while the city was just meh. Great work though guys! It's all in the details.
Persistance gets results... great job! :)
Quote from: fsujax on May 19, 2009, 09:07:00 AM
You know what I just thought about....those signs will probably be coming down once they start construction on that section of I-95.
don't worry...given FDOT's funding situation and normal delays, that project likely won't start for at least 5 years
Well done!
huzzah! good work!
I honestly do not see how FDOT is even going to be able to do anything in the next few years.
Far Out Steve! ...
Next project?
I've got a streetcar system to sell you.
OCKLAWAHA
LOL. Nice. The official countdown will begin when Steve sends that email out.
T- 429 days and counting.
:D
Quote from: fsujax on May 19, 2009, 11:21:29 AM
I honestly do not see how FDOT is even going to be able to do anything in the next few years.
This shouldn't be too hard for our Republican administration. THINK FSUJAX, THINK:
Bake Sales
Selling Greeting Cards
Amway Business
Fund Raiser Chocolate Bars
Seasonal Gift Wrap Sales
Then there is always the industrial segment of the business world, "Make Big Money Selling Fishing Worms". Giant red wigglers. QuoteHow to Make Money as a Worm Rancher - Part One
September 05, 2007 by Nick Howes
Earthworms Get in for Pennies, Make a Living at It
Selling earthworms is a perfect small business endeavor. You can start small and cheap with the knowledge that your stock replenishes itself. It's good money for teens needing spending money, for retirees seeking to supplement their fixed income, or for someone looking for a sideline with expansion potential.
You can do what we did as kids, gather earthworms on the lawn or under leaves for an extra $500 over a summer or, like a lady worm rancher in Grafton, Illinois does, raise the worms in a garage-type building in big 10'x5' beds.
I will assume for the purposes of this article that you want to launch this for pocket change, which is a perfectly plausible option, then reinvest to build the business.
OCKLAWAHA
Thank you for wasting $58,000 dollars on something that will be obsolete in the near future. This was a huge waste of money that the tax payers pay for that could have gone toward something much more productive.
Correcting incorrect signs is a waste of money?? I am about as frugal as they come here and I cannot follow your logic.
How long have the signs been like that and not been a huge problem to the city? At least 429 days as it is stated in the article. Now why spend $58,000 dollars on something that has not been a huge problem to the city when in a couple of years the signs will be worthless as they redo I-95. It is a waste of money as it has been wrong for over a year and will soon be replaced anyway.
and I'm just saying that the newcomers in the last 429 days still somehow managed to find their way around.
Yes, however the goal of the group is to make downtown less hostile. By not having accurate signage, people get frustrated coming downtown because they can't figure out where they are going. Yes, I'm sure it's a very small percentage of people that decide screw it, I can't find what I'm looking for, and leave. However, I think there is a VERY high percentage that say, "I hate coming down here, I always get lost". The goal of this is to alleviate that.
I guess I would have to agree with Ryan L here.
The signs are going to get torn down anyway in the not too distant future.
While I think we all greatly admire Steve's efforts to get the DOT to put up more accurate signs, I think it is perhaps also prudent to say "forget it if it is going to cost $60,000".
The City and State are both broke, adding $60K to that isn't going to help. I would rather them not put up any new signage anywhere and repeal the new storm water retention fees (smash and grab) than to replace signs that already seem to do the job.
If the DOT wasn't going to revamp the entire highway in a couple of years, then it would be worth the price, but things being as they are with us being broke and with plans for a new interchange, I just don't think it worth it.
It's not a social, liberal, or conservative idea, it is dollars and cents.
Well, don't get too worked up over this, FDOT will not destroy the signs....I am sure they will save them and put them back up when construction is complete.
To be fair and to put things in their perspective place, DOT had not announced that they were going to rebuild that section of highway 429 days ago. In addition to this, the new signs also span the Acosta/Main ramps and the Acosta Bridge. So most of the new signage will remain in place whenever the Overland Bridge project kicks off, five years from now or so.
correct....since the northbound lanes won't be permanently reconfigured as part of the I-95 project, the signs will still be usefdul.
And of course (as Lake said) it seems likely that the 3 lanes that go to downtown won't be changed during construction.....so most of the new signs may still in place the whole time!
Well, perhaps the bigger question here is...and I am by no means a sign expert, but why the heck does it cost $58,000 to put up some new sheet metal with reflective tape on it?
Steve's idea is very good and noble, but $58K for a sign seems very very excessive to me.
Where did the $58,000 number come from anyway?
And yes, roads and the stuff that goes with them are expensive.
From the DOT to Steve:
"We will forward a work request to our maintenance office next week for them to review and comment on this work. However, we do not know at this time whether they have the funds to complete such a large project, our estimate is $58,075. We will let you and the city of Jacksonville know as soon as we know."
"And yes, roads and the stuff that goes with them are expensive. "
My car goes on the road and it's made out of durable sheet metal, but it didn't cost $58,000.
I just wanted to point that out and not dwell on my rant or detract from the original story. I guess the chief concern here revolves around a seeming excessive price tag for a mere street sign.
Thanks, I missed that earlier. The signs are a lot bigger than they look.
I think the lesson to be learned is that roads are extremely expensive.
sheet metal, hurricane resistant (cat 3) construction, reflective material (last 10-15 years), labor (probably the biggest costs) it all adds up. Don't even ask how much that those electronic message boards cost.
(http://www.wejetset.com/photos/0001/5008/highway1.jpg)
Thanks for posting the image Lunican. I lived on that base on the sign for a few years as a kid.
Quote from: Lunican on May 19, 2009, 02:33:45 PM
Thanks, I missed that earlier. The signs are a lot bigger than they look.
I think the lesson to be learned is that roads are extremely expensive.
We already know you can construct a mile of track for less than you can a mile of road. In addition, you also have to pay for the accessories, like those big green signs. Once you lay your track, you can buy a heritage streetcar for about $200k and no big hurricane resistant green signs will be needed. To get a system off the ground in Jax, we need less than 10 cars. However, rail systems and their components are too expensive and don't turn a profit. Go figure!
Speaking of innaccurate signs... last week I was heading home from the 5 points area via Stockton. I crossed under the I-10 interstate in the right hand lane preparing for a right turn onto Irene. On the newly painted right turn only lane with accompanying arrow I was shocked to see "RIGHT TURN ONLY but with the N backwards. Laughingly I made the right turn only to see the exact same thing in the right turn only lane to merge onto I-10 West... backwards freeking N... in ONLY.
Not sure if it is still there or not... I wonder how much paint costs... :D
This is far better than before. The economic benefits to better traffic flow and even avoiding just one accident caused by a confused motorist it is worth the costs. I am sure some of the expense is also for working in the middle of an interstate, probably in the middle of the night, while not completely closing it. And, remember, literally hundreds of thousands, or perhaps millions, of people rely on these signs each year so the costs per "impression" is minimal.
But, I guess addressing Water and Broad Streets, as requested, would have busted the budget! Mary Street is San Marco, Riverside is Riverside, and "nothing" streets are Downtown on the Acosta signs. It would also be nice if there were signs indicating the best bridges for the T-U Performing Arts Center (Acosta) and the Areana/Sports Complex (Main). I am sure DOT would argue this is too much to read at 60 plus mph but it's no more than all those roadside interstate signs showing hotels, gas, and food at interstate exits which are much smaller in size.
QuoteIn addition, nowhere on these signs does it mention Water St or Broad St (until you are actually on the Acosta bridge).
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 19, 2009, 03:32:41 PM
Not sure if it is still there or not... I wonder how much paint costs... :D
Apparently about $800 per letter. As Stephandare suggested earlier, maybe its time for a MetroJacksonville field trip to Home Depot. I bet we could get it done for about 1/8th the price and then spend the rest on beer. :)
Im thinking thats what got the Ns backwards to begin with... :D
let's think of more signs to change in an effort to aleviate confusion, even though the signs will be torn down later: coming NORTH on 95 say u wanna go to the town center (absurd idea right?) be sure to take 9A EAST? even though i'm going north on it eventually?... yes, i know. but dont worry soon it will be 295 north Eastern Beltway, bc that's not gonna confuse anyone lol.
In that case, why have signs at all? Why do anything? Nothing is permanent, so why bother.
Seriously though, the majority of the new signs aren't even on the Overland Bridge. It seems like a huge assumption is being made that all of these newly installed signs will be taken down in five years. How do we remotely know that this assessment is true?
Quote from: fsujax on May 19, 2009, 02:33:54 PM
sheet metal, hurricane resistant (cat 3) construction, reflective material (last 10-15 years), labor (probably the biggest costs) it all adds up. Don't even ask how much that those electronic message boards cost.
and don't forget about all of the pre-fab process...FDOT has to pay staff (or a consultant) to do the sign design....then FDOT has to apply to FHWA and get approval (sometimes done before design)...all of this takes time and money...I worked with a guy in Tampa who did signing and marking plans for the I-275 project (now under construction) for the better part of a year!
Again, I support the improvements made and appreciate DOT's efforts, but...
Thousands of signs made to standard DOT green and reflective white/yellow colors, standard typeset and sizing rules, standard metal gauges and alloys, standard structural engineering, etc. - what is the consultant for? spell check? :) No doubt DOT has high standards that are worthy of higher costs but that doesn't mean we should pay for bureaucratic overkill.
This reminds me of Pentagon purchasing - the $5,000 toilet, etc.
I would like to know what Disney pays for the signs on their roadways versus ones made by DOT.
Didn't Gov. Bush cause a 25% reduction in state employees? Could it be that some jobs formerly done by state employees (DOT in this case) are now done by consultants? I mean, it's not like the work of designing signs and road went away when the employees did. What ya wanna bet that consultants cost more than the staff they replaced?
Oh, and based on what it cost to take the family to Disney earlier this Spring, I wouldn't be on their signs costing any less than DOT signs (and they have all those pretty colors, too!) :)
Correct Charles...for those who don't know FDOT has about the same # of employees in 2009 as it did in 1979....and the state's populatioon has more than doubled!
As such, FDOT does no do very much themselves, and has consultants for most studies as well as some everyday program management.
$58,000 for corrections is worth my portion of tax dollars. Many may have found their destinations with the incorrect signage, but the fact is they were incorrect.
Not only are they correct, but they are more useful.
Who would object to spending $58,000 to correct signage if northbound I-95 signs were placed in southbound lanes?
So its 58 grand... big deal. Compared to all the waste thats gone on with this stupid courthouse boondoggle thats a drop in the bucket.
The signs were wrong. They needed to be fixed.
My tax money did something to make thousands of motorists' lives better.. including mine. I'm happy with it and have always thought those signs were incorrect.
The $58,000 likely would have been spent on something anyway. At least now we know it was spent on something useful.
Since we are on the topic of usefulness, what about additions to the southbound I-95 signage at 9A/295 and downtown? Not many people know exiting on Union and continuing over the Mathews to Atlantic would lead to Atlantic Beach.
Southbound 95 at the US-90 and JTB exits already highlights "Jax Beaches" as a destination, so why not north of the river?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 19, 2009, 03:32:41 PM
Speaking of innaccurate signs... last week I was heading home from the 5 points area via Stockton. I crossed under the I-10 interstate in the right hand lane preparing for a right turn onto Irene. On the newly painted right turn only lane with accompanying arrow I was shocked to see "RIGHT TURN ONLY but with the N backwards. Laughingly I made the right turn only to see the exact same thing in the right turn only lane to merge onto I-10 West... backwards freeking N... in ONLY.
Not sure if it is still there or not... I wonder how much paint costs... :D
I drove that route last night and noticed the character formerly known as the reverse N has been changed to an actual letter; however, it was a poor job as it now looks like an 'X' since not much was done to remove the diagonal line from the previous non-letter.
:D Thanks for the update... :D Jacksonville... :D
To their credit, the right turn only lane on Irene indicates it is such every 20 feet or so.
I guess the message is, "YOU MAY ONLY TURN RIGHT FROM THIS LANE!"
JaxNole wrote "Not many people know exiting on Union and continuing over the Mathews to Atlantic would lead to Atlantic Beach."
It would be better to use the MLK Pkwy to get to the Mathews if coming south on I95.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 22, 2009, 07:08:37 PM
JaxNole wrote "Not many people know exiting on Union and continuing over the Mathews to Atlantic would lead to Atlantic Beach."
It would be better to use the MLK Pkwy to get to the Mathews if coming south on I95.
Good catch. Another great opportunity to bring awareness to motorists that not only is there a bridge, but it leads to the beaches and the Atlantic.
Some people spontaneously hop in a car and explore new areas and some rely on signage to determine destinations.
Why doesn't FDOT more frequently highlight on our interstate signage that we have beaches and that Exit 3nn can take you there?
If our focus is on destinations, which makes more sense: To advertise which exit takes you to FCCJ/FSCJ Downtown or to the Times-Union PAC, Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, MOCA, The Jacksonville Landing, The Beaches, etc...?
Quote from: JaxNole on May 22, 2009, 08:45:44 AM
Not many people know exiting on Union and continuing over the Mathews to Atlantic would lead to Atlantic Beach.
Speaking of the I-95 Southbound exit for Union exit, as I recall, it leads to Beaver Street as well, but DOT also has no signs saying so. Instead, on I-95, they direct you to Kings Road and around the post office to a side street, Eaverson. Only the "insiders" are in the know! Imagine building an exit ramp and then telling no one it exists. ???
I suspect a DOT engineer will tell us Union is a left hand exit which I know they hate to build anymore, and the ramp to Beaver Street has a stop sign, not a light. But, going to Eaverson is literally going around the block! In rebuilding I-95, maybe they missed an opportunity to improve this. We have already had MJ threads about the neglect of Beaver Street, a U.S. highway no less, and this is just another example of it. Maybe it's why economically depressed areas stay that way?!
My guess is a broad-sweeping neglect of the area. Beaver carries considerable truck traffic and passes through industrial and decaying neighborhoods. Yet another improvement FDOT could make.
I don't understand many of the designs of our interstates, intrastates and highways, but, if I did not grow up here, I would say Jacksonville trails only Boston with the most confusing road system. At least Boston's excuse is the settlement predated the modern road system.
Since this is a thread about I-95 signage, perhaps we can take a cue from Steve and continue suggesting improvements to FDOT. Maybe if we follow Steve's efforts, FDOT will be more mindful of signage and improve its usefulness to those who pay attention to them.
Steve, are you up for it? If not, I'd be happy to begin. PM me if you're interested.
BTW, anyone know when 9A will officially become signed 295? Further, when will all references to 295 indicate whether it is the West or East beltway?
Quote from: JaxNole on May 22, 2009, 11:37:08 PM
BTW, anyone know when 9A will officially become signed 295? Further, when will all references to 295 indicate whether it is the West or East beltway?
Last I've seen it will be "sometime in 2010."
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-01-29/story/what%E2%80%99s_in_a_direction_on_i_295_in_2010_it_depends
Perhaps there is a newer update?
I thought I noticed something different when I drove through there today :)
QuoteThank you for wasting $58,000 dollars on something that will be obsolete in the near future. This was a huge waste of money that the tax payers pay for that could have gone toward something much more productive.
Thats interesting, I am surprised something that was broken was actually fixed in Jax. Good job to the movers and shakers. Maybe MetroJax can help with other things.
Quote from: nicktooch on May 20, 2009, 09:53:49 PM
let's think of more signs to change in an effort to aleviate confusion, even though the signs will be torn down later: coming NORTH on 95 say u wanna go to the town center (absurd idea right?) be sure to take 9A EAST? even though i'm going north on it eventually?... yes, i know. but dont worry soon it will be 295 north Eastern Beltway, bc that's not gonna confuse anyone lol.
I have to disagree, when heading south or north toward a beltway the signs should read East and West. The expressway that you are on is the beltway divider, even thought the circle will eventually parallel the same expressway IE 95.
When does 9A become 295 East anyway? Whats up with those signs?
Quote from: stjr on May 22, 2009, 10:53:46 PM
I suspect a DOT engineer will tell us Union is a left hand exit which I know they hate to build anymore, and the ramp to Beaver Street has a stop sign, not a light. But, going to Eaverson is literally going around the block! In rebuilding I-95, maybe they missed an opportunity to improve this. We have already had MJ threads about the neglect of Beaver Street, a U.S. highway no less, and this is just another example of it. Maybe it's why economically depressed areas stay that way?!
Impressive, the same could be said about the exits on 20th Expressway. The exits are not done properly.