I would have expected some type of PR event associated with it, no?
http://www.news4jax.com/news/19454811/detail.html
QuoteI would have expected some type of PR event associated with it, no?
Has anyone seen the massive drill to begin the construction of the crane that will be down there? Besides we don't have any money for PR, this albatross is already costing too much.
This isn't technically construction beginning. They're taking core samples of the soil to see what kind of conditions are there and how deep the pilings or foundation should go. Standard procedure on any large project, doesn't necessarily mean construction has comenced. However, that said, it is a step in the right direction.
Quotedoesn't necessarily mean construction has comenced.
Maybe not, but the knuckleheads are already planning on re-routing traffic off of Monroe, check it out.
Do you really think the Mayor wants to draw anymore attention to this disaster?
Quoteto this disaster
Of for that matter, any disaster? That Crow must still taste fresh in his mouth after Trail Ridge.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 14, 2009, 09:42:19 AM
Quotedoesn't necessarily mean construction has comenced.
Maybe not, but the knuckleheads are already planning on re-routing traffic off of Monroe, check it out.
proof?
Quoteproof?
I did not take a picture of it but there are message boards discussing the rerouting of Monroe traffic just past Jefferson.
Not sure where this announcement came from, but it is quoted on another board (JaxOutLoud):
Quote
CITY TO CLOSE PORTION OF MONROE STREET FOR COUNTY COURTHOUSE CONSTRUCTION
JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May 15, 2009 â€" Beginning May 26, a portion of Monroe Street in downtown will be closed to allow for the construction of the new Duval County courthouse.
Monroe Street will be closed between Broad Street (to the west) and Julia Street (to the east). Motorists may utilize Forsyth Street (one-way westbound) or Church Street (one-way eastbound) as detour routes.
Electronic message boards were put into place on Monday, May 11 to notify motorists of the impending construction activity and detour signage will be posted accordingly. The road will be reopened once construction is complete.
well they do have to re-route the road....of course they could do that first, then build....but I'm sure that would be somewhat more expensive....and they will probably use the extra space for staging
Progress...I love it and it's about time for this "God forsaken" Courthouse. Hope it is finished on time, on budget, and even under budget (if there is such a thing nowadays).
Heights Unknown
Here's proof, which was sent out as a media release
QuoteFOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Misty Skipper, (904) 630-7377
Kristen Beach, (904) 630-2709
CITY TO CLOSE PORTION OF MONROE STREET FOR COUNTY COURTHOUSE CONSTRUCTION
JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May 15, 2009 â€" Beginning May 26, a portion of Monroe Street in downtown will be closed to allow for the construction of the new Duval County courthouse.
Monroe Street will be closed between Broad Street (to the west) and Julia Street (to the east). Motorists may utilize Forsyth Street (one-way westbound) or Church Street (one-way eastbound) as detour routes.
Electronic message boards were put into place on Monday, May 11 to notify motorists of the impending construction activity and detour signage will be posted accordingly. The road will be reopened once construction is complete.
Quote from: heights unknown on May 16, 2009, 07:52:39 AM
Progress...I love it and it's about time for this "God forsaken" Courthouse. Hope it is finished on time, on budget, and even under budget (if there is such a thing nowadays).
Heights Unknown
On budget? We still have not been given a firm price, and to my knowledge, the city council has not approved it
Quote from: Springfielder on May 16, 2009, 08:19:08 AM
Quote from: heights unknown on May 16, 2009, 07:52:39 AM
Progress...I love it and it's about time for this "God forsaken" Courthouse. Hope it is finished on time, on budget, and even under budget (if there is such a thing nowadays).
Heights Unknown
On budget? We still have not been given a firm price, and to my knowledge, the city council has not approved it
I know Springfielder, but construction is about to begin, so regardless of a price not having been given, or that City Council has not approved that price, at least the shovels and dirt are moving, so let's hope for the best!
Don't forget, I used the word "hope" in that sentence; we can only hope it's on budget or even under budget.
Heights Unknown
This is a complete fiasco and IMO, should be shelved until the next administration takes over. So, I'm not at all happy to see any activity taking place...not when we, the taxpayers have been screwed by this over and over again
Quote from: reednavy on May 14, 2009, 09:37:58 AM
This isn't technically construction beginning. They're taking core samples of the soil to see what kind of conditions are there and how deep the pilings or foundation should go. Standard procedure on any large project, doesn't necessarily mean construction has comenced. However, that said, it is a step in the right direction.
Are you sure this is true? If it is, I don't know how they could have bid the project. Quoting the foundation without knowing the soil conditions is a total wildcard! Soil borings should have been done during the design phase. If your are right, it would be just another example of the gross incompetence on this project and why "the price" is never really "the price"!
That is what they're doing. The crane is supporting a core driller for soil conditions, but more for seeing where and how deep the bedrock is. I don't see what else this could be, I've seen this type of device many times before as a surveyor. After this, survey crews will likely be there getting the overall footprint of the structure into place with point stakings and such.
Quote from: Springfielder on May 16, 2009, 08:18:08 AM
Here's proof, which was sent out as a media release
QuoteFOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Misty Skipper, (904) 630-7377
Kristen Beach, (904) 630-2709
CITY TO CLOSE PORTION OF MONROE STREET FOR COUNTY COURTHOUSE CONSTRUCTION
JACKSONVILLE, Fla., May 15, 2009 – Beginning May 26, a portion of Monroe Street in downtown will be closed to allow for the construction of the new Duval County courthouse.
Monroe Street will be closed between Broad Street (to the west) and Julia Street (to the east). Motorists may utilize Forsyth Street (one-way westbound) or Church Street (one-way eastbound) as detour routes.
Electronic message boards were put into place on Monday, May 11 to notify motorists of the impending construction activity and detour signage will be posted accordingly. The road will be reopened once construction is complete.
Still wondering how they plan to leave Monroe given that the directions of existing streets and the turning radii shown in the renderings don't match up! Another disaster in the making? If we can find this many problems as bystanders, imagine what we aren't seeing on the "inside" of this project! Expect lots more issues to come.Quote from: stjr on March 17, 2009, 01:58:51 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the western side of this project Broad Street? This is one way north, currently. As such, traffic could not turn right into the curve based on the graphic in the rendering. Traffic in the curve would have to originate from Pearl Street which is one way south. This would force traffic on Monroe in front of the courthouse in the OPPOSITE direction from traffic emanating from I-95. How foolish would this be?!! The alternative is to allow no access whatsoever to the curve from Pearl to preserve the current Monroe eastward flow or to reverse the traffic on Broad and Pearl to allow access from those streets into the curve. What a mess!
What has also not been answered is what will become of the green spaces outside "the curve"? Will they be retention ponds? A park? Grassy fields? Future development? "Protest parks"? More space for the homeless to collect? If they are used for public gatherings and events, will this interfere with the courthouse function? This area will be close to 1 and 1/2 city blocks rivaling Hemming Plaza in area.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/485954140_bsxDV-M.jpg)
Any idea of how much its going to cost to rip up Monroe, replace it and the utilities under it? Up to this date, I have not seen a number publicly released, concerning Monroe Street.
Haven't they already done the utility relocation?
Good point Springfielder.
Heights Unknown
I always see the front of the new courthouse in renderings; is the back going to look like the front or is the back going to look like the back of a building should (possibly fenced, parking lots, utility boxes, etc.). That is a much traveled street (I think) that will be at the back of the Courthouse; is it not?
Heights Unknown
We've probably never seen pictures of the back because it would cause us to hate the design even more. It'll probably look like the back of a Wal Mart because all of the money was put into the beautiful "face" and the luxurious courtrooms and judge offices. :-[
The back renderings were included in an article about the courthouse renderings a few months ago.
Front
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8222-dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_49.jpg)
Back
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8223-dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_50.jpg)
full article with more renderings and drawings: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-duval-county-courthouse-renderings
Quote from: brainstormer on May 17, 2009, 02:07:27 PM
We've probably never seen pictures of the back because it would cause us to hate the design even more. It'll probably look like the back of a Wal Mart because all of the money was put into the beautiful "face" and the luxurious courtrooms and judge offices. :-[
Ha Ha Ha...LOL. That was funny brainstormer, but you know what, you're probably right.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: thelakelander on May 17, 2009, 02:13:50 PM
The back renderings were included in an article about the courthouse renderings a few months ago.
Front
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8222-dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_49.jpg)
Back
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8223-dec_08_ddrb_agenda_for_web_page_50.jpg)
full article with more renderings and drawings: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-dec-duval-county-courthouse-renderings
So that explains why the parking garage was built; so that the back of the Courthouse could be built to look like the front because of the busy through street behind it, and to keep it from looking like the back of a Walmart with surface parking, utility boxes, garbage dumpster, etc. From what I can deduce from the drawings you gave us Lakelander, the back will look close to what the front looks like, not identical mind you.
Anyone ever answer the question of what the empty green space is off of the curvature road in the front? Probably empty green grass or a small park.
Heights Unknown
I wonder if the judges realize by having a flat building they won't get a view! I mean looking out the front, a park for the homeless and a very dry looking parking garage...oooo...ahhhh. And looking out the back, the JEA water tower building or whatever that thing is. It certainly isn't aesthetically pleasing. They will probably be envious of the federal judges...they got both. A posh office and a view! ;D How about them apples Judge Moran!
Quote from: brainstormer on May 17, 2009, 07:11:34 PM
I wonder if the judges realize by having a flat building they won't get a view! I mean looking out the front, a park for the homeless and a very dry looking parking garage...oooo...ahhhh. And looking out the back, the JEA water tower building or whatever that thing is. It certainly isn't aesthetically pleasing. They will probably be envious of the federal judges...they got both. A posh office and a view! ;D How about them apples Judge Moran!
Brainstormer you've got my side hurting, that's funny. But we don't know what high rises or skyscrapers might spring up in that area around the Courthouse or in LaVilla; you never know. The Courthouse could be a huge spark for that far western sector of downtown, and in 10 to 15 years or more the Judges, if they are not too old, will have a better view.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on May 17, 2009, 09:17:38 PM
The Courthouse could be a huge spark for that far western sector of downtown, and in 10 to 15 years or more the Judges, if they are not too old, will have a better view.
Heights Unknown
I don't know about those other high rises, but I think we can be certain that most of the judges behind this design will be retired long before then. I know a few, and most have ALREADY retired. Not sure of Moran's age or when he must retire, but I bet Peyton promised him the Courthouse before he does retire. Heck, that may have more to do with the schedule than Peyton's term ending! ;)
By the way, the JEA plant to the rear is a water chiller plant designed to pump chilled water for air conditioning systems in buildings throughout the Downtown area. I would guess the Courthouse will be a client. Since the JEA plant has no roof as I recall, looking down on it from the upper floors of the Courthouse will provide a "beautiful" view of industrial equipment and cooling towers.
What the judges will really like is being next door to Wormans. I see them and other members of the BAR there all the time.
While this has not been a popular project, at least it will breathe some life into that part of downtown. Let's just hope there is some spillover.
Does anyone know what will happen to the old courthouse when this one is opened?
The city will probably issue an RFP for the redevelopment of that site.
Ugh, let's hope it is for something ligit.
Perhaps that would be a good spot for some greenspace and the Maritime museum? City already owns it and it would be a nice thing to have on the northbank to tie it to the riverwalk.
I think it would be a great spot for convention center with the Hyatt, Landing and Bay Street strip nearby. Since the city already owns it, its probably the cheapest solution for a center that makes sense because getting the thing out of the Prime Osborn will help create an efficient transportation center. With LandMar going belly up on the Shipyards, that site could come into play for additional greenspace and cultural uses.
Convention center would be great. If there was some vision. Having something on the river tied into the landing would make sense. that is what make Baltimore so successful.
Didn't Peyton hint something about a convention center near The Haytt, saying it would be a long time before a hotel of it's size would be built near the existing convention center?
The Mayor said that with the new courthouse under construction, it is time to begin thinking about the reuse of the current courthouse and city hall annex properties. And, while it's a little presumptuous to assume that the shipyards property is going to be back in city hands, some discussion for that site may be appropriate too. On Thursday, the mayor said the government complex on Bay Street may be the place to begin convention center conversation, as it is on the river, next to the 1,000-room Hyatt and near the Landing entertainment complex. Look forward to hearing your thoughts...
^i think it sounds terrific. I also think I've heard that idea many times already...on this site.
He is dead on about the current courthouse site and annex being the best location for a future convention center. For convention centers to be a success, what they are adjacent to is just as important as what's inside of them. The courthouse site is attractive for the following reasons:
1. The Hyatt
A successful convention center needs a convention center hotel. The 966 unit Hyatt, is our convention center hotel. Locating a convention complex next door would mean we would not have to give heavy incentives to another hotel group to construct a project that the downtown market can't support.
2. Bay Street Town Center
Convention centers need to have entertainment uses nearby. With the courthouse site, visitors would be in walking distance to Bay Street's nightlife, the Landing's restaurants and the Florida Theater.
3. Existing businesses
Although convention centers themselves may not turn a profit, they do bring generate income for the local business community. Did anyone see the large amount of people who showed up at the Prime Osborn for the job fair this week? Imagine if crowds that size were walking to a convention center close to the heart of the Northbank. A significant number of vacant storefronts would be filled with additional retailers, restaurants, bars and cultural establishments.
4. We already own the land
Since the city already owns the land and the Hyatt, Landing and Bay Street being adjacent, we only have to worry about the construction of the facility itself. Also with the Hyatt and the Landing nearby, a possibility exists for a facility constructed with public/private dollars. In the end, that's a win-win for the entire community.
Quote from: Adam Hollingsworth on May 23, 2009, 05:27:10 PM
The Mayor said that with the new courthouse under construction, it is time to begin thinking about the reuse of the current courthouse and city hall annex properties. And, while it's a little presumptuous to assume that the shipyards property is going to be back in city hands, some discussion for that site may be appropriate too. On Thursday, the mayor said the government complex on Bay Street may be the place to begin convention center conversation, as it is on the river, next to the 1,000-room Hyatt and near the Landing entertainment complex. Look forward to hearing your thoughts...
Getting that Convention Center OUT of the Jacksonville Transportation Center would be a legacy Peyton could put in stone. Not only would it fix the tiny, ill placed convention center, it would sweep away a major obstacle to making JTC a true Transportation Center, rather then a Transportation Neighborhood... I think I'd even spring for a sandstone marker that told this story, yes, I would put his name in stone! BRAVO!
PS: Can I hit the plunger on the demolition of that giant albatross of exhibit area behind the classic train stations? Oh PLEASE! Pretty PLEASE! OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on May 23, 2009, 05:40:48 PM
Since the city already owns the land and the Hyatt, Landing and Bay Street being adjacent, we only have to worry about the construction of the facility itself. Also with the Hyatt and the Landing nearby, a possibility exists for a facility constructed with public/private dollars. In the end, that's a win-win for the entire community.
Another thing Lake, something I recently discovered and scoped out. A streetcar line down Water/Independence/Court House Dr would not HAVE to turn onto Newnan, but could continue through green space, convention area etc, for two more blocks before making the turn on Market or Liberty next to Berkman. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 23, 2009, 06:12:53 PM
Getting that Convention Center OUT of the Jacksonville Transportation Center would be a legacy Peyton could put in stone. Not only would it fix the tiny, ill placed convention center, it would sweep away a major obstacle to making JTC a true Transportation Center, rather then a Transportation Neighborhood... I think I'd even spring for a sandstone marker that told this story, yes, I would put his name in stone! BRAVO!
PS: Can I hit the plunger on the demolition of that giant albatross of exhibit area behind the classic train stations? Oh PLEASE! Pretty PLEASE!
OCKLAWAHA
I have a better idea...keep the exhibit hall space and turn it into offices fro JTA, the TPO, and the traffic management center....as well as the bus station, etc.....that way, there is virtually no need to build any new buildings, and the money saved (which isn't there right now anyway) could go to other transit needs.
And, let's get real...the proposed transportation center is expected to cost about $150 million and would not be seen in a favorable light by most citizens...on the other hand, $250+ million for a new convention center would likely be much more popular, especially considering the spinoff revenue that would be generated downtown!
However, this transit center will consolidate all forms of transit in the city at one location, which is needed. The transit center will play a critical role in getting Amtrak back downtown and our future in commuter rail.
I wonder how much sq. footage of exhibition space can be built upon the old courthouse and city hall site. This includes tearing down the old city hall tower or whatever that bricked mess is.
If we get creative, around 400,000sf. However, all we really need is 200,000 - 250,000sf of exhibition space.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/bayconventioncentersite.jpg)
Quote from: reednavy on May 23, 2009, 11:30:42 PM
However, this transit center will consolidate all forms of transit in the city at one location, which is needed. The transit center will play a critical role in getting Amtrak back downtown and our future in commuter rail.
agreed...I'm all for the transportation center...I'm just saying that people will get behind spending $ on a convention center more easily....and if the transportation center can be housed in the Prime Osborn, we could probably d the necessary retrofits for less than $50 million.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 23, 2009, 05:40:48 PM
He is dead on about the current courthouse site and annex being the best location for a future convention center. For convention centers to be a success, what they are adjacent to is just as important as what's inside of them. The courthouse site is attractive for the following reasons:
1. The Hyatt
A successful convention center needs a convention center hotel. The 966 unit Hyatt, is our convention center hotel. Locating a convention complex next door would mean we would not have to give heavy incentives to another hotel group to construct a project that the downtown market can't support.
2. Bay Street Town Center
Convention centers need to have entertainment uses nearby. With the courthouse site, visitors would be in walking distance to Bay Street's nightlife, the Landing's restaurants and the Florida Theater.
3. Existing businesses
Although convention centers themselves may not turn a profit, they do bring generate income for the local business community. Did anyone see the large amount of people who showed up at the Prime Osborn for the job fair this week? Imagine if crowds that size were walking to a convention center close to the heart of the Northbank. A significant number of vacant storefronts would be filled with additional retailers, restaurants, bars and cultural establishments.
4. We already own the land
Since the city already owns the land and the Hyatt, Landing and Bay Street being adjacent, we only have to worry about the construction of the facility itself. Also with the Hyatt and the Landing nearby, a possibility exists for a facility constructed with public/private dollars. In the end, that's a win-win for the entire community.
Good job Lake, and I concur. The foundation is in place for a convention center in that spot downtown, just raze what's already there, and build a convention center; or, if we have people that are really heart broken about razing the old courthouse and city hall, then renovate those buildings and add additional facilities in and around them for a new convention center.
Heights Unknown
Considering all that is being said, if the old convention center was moved on the river in the Northbank, is it safe to say that the "Union Station" (train station) would be reverted back into a true train station hub, or transportation center terminal for the City of Jacksonville? I would think so as we have talked about it in this forum, and City Leaders have flirted with the idea from time to time.
I don't really agree with making most of it offices for the new transportation center/hub; I think it should be reverted back to it's original intended use, along with also being the central transportation hub and terminal for the city of Jacksonville.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 23, 2009, 10:03:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 23, 2009, 06:12:53 PM
Getting that Convention Center OUT of the Jacksonville Transportation Center would be a legacy Peyton could put in stone.
I have a better idea...keep the exhibit hall space and turn it into offices fro JTA, the TPO, and the traffic management center....as well as the bus station, etc.....that way, there is virtually no need to build any new buildings, and the money saved (which isn't there right now anyway) could go to other transit needs.
And, let's get real...the proposed transportation center is expected to cost about $150 million and would not be seen in a favorable light by most citizens...on the other hand, $250+ million for a new convention center would likely be much more popular, especially considering the spinoff revenue that would be generated downtown!
If you check out the compact plan that I designed with Lakelander, we would retain about 1/3 of the exhibit space. This allows for more tracks to get us closer to the USDOT recommended 12 tracks.
The Southern most 2/3 Rd's of the building would become (mostly) an intercity bus terminal - Something that you DON'T want inside a roofed building. OCKLAWAHA
progress is a slow proccesses
This is all really a moot point, since nothing can be done, to the land, until the Courthouse is built. Good idea though. With the city taking over the ship yards, perhaps more thought of a green space, soccer/baseball fields will be incorporated into the design of downtown. They could also use the JEA space, but something should be done with these sites.