I E-mailed JTA and found out that supposedly their routes are uploaded to Google maps, they are waiting on Google maps to update on their end. I think it would be beneficial to the city to be part of Google maps by increasing ridership awareness among a broader audience. Wendy Morrow, of JTA, informed me that it would not be until this summer that the entire system map is updated which seems like a long time considering the changes are currently in place. One big change is combining the NS33 and I6 and renaming it the "CT3". This is the airport line. I think if we can get people interested in the airport line then we might get people riding the bus more often. The only problem is the CT3 route is not even updated on the website.
I thought this might be a good forum on any changes you guys think JTA needs to make to the bus line. Here is a link to the current system map:
http://www.jtafla.com/pdf/RouteMap_Jan09pdf.pdf
Quote from: TheProfessor on May 11, 2009, 06:44:33 PM
One big change is combining the NS33 and I6 and renaming it the "CT3". This is the airport line. I think if we can get people interested in the airport line then we might get people riding the bus more often. The only problem is the CT3 route is not even updated on the website.
That sounds like JTA regarding them not updating the website. JTA had discontinued the NS-21 Northwest Looper, but still had bus stop signs on Edgewood; Hell, they might still be there for all I know.
That is the problem with the JTA philosophy. There needs to be a North-South and East-West dependable, frequent, route that people can hop on at anytime. Of course I would rather this be light rail, but they can start with a dependable bus route East-West from the beach and North-South from the airport. Even people who solely use their car would enjoy a bus to the airport instead of getting a ride or paying park and ride....
QuoteEven people who solely use their car would enjoy a bus to the airport instead of getting a ride or paying park and ride....
The issue is cost. The long term lots at JIA are 6 bucks per day. So figure you drive up, cost of your time, and 3-4 gallons of gas, maybe $20, plus parking. You come back, get on the tram pay the fare and you are off to home quick and easy.
How much would you be willing to pay from a downtown to airport or shuttle from other parts of town (Park and Ride, if any are still around) to the airport? From Mandarin to the airport has to be 45 minutes to an hour if not longer. Would a 1.5 hour turn around from waiting for a bus interest you? If you could get a limo for $75 would it make more sense?
I think people would still use the buses to the airport if they felt they could depend on them. From Mandarin on the current bus line there are no transfers and its only a DOLLAR. Big savings over any other mode of transport. Independent of the airport situation, there still needs to be a dependable, frequent North-South and East-West bus line in the city that the arterial bus lines would tie into.
Quotethere still needs to be a dependable, frequent North-South and East-West bus line in the city that the arterial bus lines would tie into.
^That's what they want to do with BRT.
QuoteThat's what they want to do with BRT
Really, does the BRT go direct to the airport? Dollar from Mandarin to the airport is a bargain, but not if it takes 3 hours.
No. Instead of the airport, it goes to I-295 near Walmart on Lem Turner. Before then, JTA's proposal was to have it terminate at Gateway Mall.
I guess we can walk to the airport from there, or perhaps a rail line at 300 million a mile?
We'd be fools to pay anything at $300 million a mile and that includes roads and bridges. Someone would definitely be getting their pockets lined with numbers that high. According to the official study, the preliminary estimates for the commuter rail North Corridor came in around $8.3 million per mile. That number can be easily lowered by not taking it out to Yulee, double tracking up front and incorporating a few more urban stations as opposed to stops with huge parking lots and bus drop off lanes. Its feasible to build a "no-frills" passenger rail line between Downtown and the Airport in the $100 million range. Don't think so. Just look at Nashville's Music City Star. Constructed for $41 million in 2006, the 32-mile line is the cheapest commuter rail system constructed to date. At $120 million, Austin's 32-mile line opening later this year, isn't that far behind.
Austin Metrorail (Urban Commuter Rail)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/525034374_WzgAc-M.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Downtown_MetroRail_station.JPG
May I remind you of the mathmatical skills of our leaders? Our original courthouse was going to be under 200 million......
There is no way they can build a line from downtown to the airport for 100 million. Not in this town.
Something interesting, not the tax increase for light rail in Tampa won't even cover the operating costs, meaning taxpayers in Duval will be paying for this boondoggle in Tampa. Just great!
QuoteFlorida light rails not worth expense
Updated: Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Supporters of the Tampa Rail Project won a small victory when the Hillsborough County Transportation Task Force agreed to start writing a ballot for a one-cent sales tax referendum to be voted on next year.
However, the light rail project is far from being finalized, as the tax will cover only about 20 percent of the operating cost, and the TRP could cost up to $70 million per mile.
In this economic environment, it is hard to imagine why Tampa needs such an expensive rail line in an area already serviced by buses. The goal of helping the environment and creating jobs is an ambitious one, but it will take millions of dollars and a number of years before any results can be seen.
With budgets tight this year, the county would do better to put the light rail project on the back burner and invest in more immediate solutions to congestion and carbon emissions.
The TRP is not Florida’s only costly commuter rail project.
Funding for SunRail, a proposed 61-mile commuter rail through central Florida, is up for a vote in the state House and Senate, according to Bay News 9. In 2007, the state offered the Jacksonville-based freight company CSX Transportation Inc. $491 million to build the commuter rail, according to the Associated Press. Since then, its cost has continued to balloon: The project’s current estimated cost is $1.2 billion, the Orlando Sentinel reported.
Even if the SunRail is approved by the Legislature, the project will likely not have enough funding to get started, as the state’s transportation budget is being cut. Sen. Mike Fasano, chairman of the Florida Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations Committee, told Bay News 9 the project may be suspended.
“They’d have to delay SunRail for many years to come, because we only have â€" and I don’t say only â€" we have $500 million in the trust fund to build roads,†he said, according to the Journal. “If the House prevails in sweeping $400 million, there’ll be virtually no dollars left to build any new roads, and definitely no dollars left to move forward on SunRail.â€
If the state cannot fund the SunRail, it will be difficult for Hillsborough County to fund its own rail project. Neither endeavor has gotten off the ground yet, and the state would be better served by suspending both until the economy
recovers.
http://www.usforacle.com/florida-light-rails-not-worth-expense-1.1729020
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 08:33:14 AM
May I remind you of the mathmatical skills of our leaders? Our original courthouse was going to be under 200 million......
There is no way they can build a line from downtown to the airport for 100 million. Not in this town.
If you are correct, it won't be because it can't be done. There are too many examples out there proving otherwise, when it comes down to cost of materials and labor (Nashville and Austin being two recent ones). What you may be hinting at is more than the cost of rail itself. You're suggesting public incompetence and that's another issue.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 08:36:31 AM
Something interesting, not the tax increase for light rail in Tampa won't even cover the operating costs, meaning taxpayers in Duval will be paying for this boondoggle in Tampa. Just great!
While we're at it, lets bring the DC Metro and Chicago El into the mix, lol.
You do know the difference between heavy, light, commuter rail and streetcars right? You also know that the cost differences between them are completely different as well.....right? You do understand that we have roughly $100 million already set aside for local mass transit? If so, what in the world does Tampa's light rail tax issue and how they plan to pay for annual O&M have anything to do with this particular discussion?
Apples and Oranges. Btw, I don't think Tampa's push for a sales tax increase is smart or will pass, but its also clear the author of that editorial is just as confused by comparing Sunrail to Tampa's situation.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 08:33:14 AM
May I remind you of the mathmatical skills of our leaders? Our original courthouse was going to be under 200 million......
There is no way they can build a line from downtown to the airport for 100 million. Not in this town.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 08:36:31 AM
Something interesting, not the tax increase for light rail in Tampa won't even cover the operating costs, meaning taxpayers in Duval will be paying for this boondoggle in Tampa. Just great!
Quote
So by your own definition, every paved road in the Jacksonville MSA is a "boondoggle?" Every Library ever built, a boondoggle? Every police, fire and parks department a boondoggle? Roosevelt, 103RD St, Arlington Expressway, Blanding, Hecksher, San Jose, JTB... Where in your mind does boondoggle start and responsibility end?
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteSo by your own definition, every paved road in the Jacksonville MSA is a "boondoggle?" Every Library ever built, a boondoggle? Every police, fire and parks department a boondoggle? Roosevelt, 103RD St, Arlington Expressway, Blanding, Hecksher, San Jose, JTB... Where in your mind does boondoggle start and responsibility end?
Did you know that according to the JCCI report of 2008, 67% of the respondents reported that their daily commute was 25 minutes or less? Does this constitute an expensive rail system, such as the one in Tuscon at 297 million dollars for only 3.2 miles of track? How long would you suppose it would take you to drive or better yet, to walk 3.2 miles? Do you think we need to spend millions on something when people's commute is so short?
Average Skyway ridership decreased from 2400 riders to 2200 riders that same year. In the year 2000, the Skyway had about the same number of riders. The Skyway's final price tag was 184 million dollars in 2000 dollars. I'd call that the mother of all boondoggles. Responsibility begins and ends with fiscal responsibility of taxpayer dollars. The Skyway is an expensive lesson of wasted resources.
Mayor John Delaney said it best in 1995, when he called the Skyway a "turkey" and a "disaster".
Let's talk about what we have got in our city---THE BUSES....and how we can improve the system. The skyway needs to be left as only an inner city people mover. Any new night rail should be a system independent of the skyway.
Sorry, we can't you see the skyway was designed to work in downtown, in the so-called congested streets of Bay, Water, Main, Laura, and we supposedly needed the skyway to help with congestion. The problem is that the leaders 30 years ago thought downtown would have more residents than it does now, and there would be less flight to suburbs. Another in yet many bad planning moves....
So the Skyway is part of the bus system, buses feed to FCCJ to help people get around downtown. I can't remember the last time I saw a JTA bus on Hogan Street, or Laura for that matter, the fact is that they dump people at the FCCJ station and from there use the Skyway. Its all connected one way or another.
^Actually not. A large number of bus routes use downtown's streets before branching out on their specific routes. If we wanted to fully integrate the skyway into the bus system, buses would make ONE or TWO stops in downtown depending on the route. Those stops would be at the FCCJ and Kings Avenue Stations. All downtown trips in between would be served by the Skyway and faux trolleys. That, along with making the skyway into a two line system (CC to Central & Kings to FCCJ), would probably double skyway ridership without doing anything else.
Quote from: TheProfessor on May 12, 2009, 08:12:28 PM
Let's talk about what we have got in our city---THE BUSES....and how we can improve the system. The skyway needs to be left as only an inner city people mover. Any new night rail should be a system independent of the skyway.
I think the recent changes will improve the existing bus system. For further improvement, I'd suggest implementing proposed BRT corridors, on existing streets, now with the current system asking for federal stimulus dollars to pay for additional bus shelters and fuel efficient buses.
"additional bus shelters "
Too bad the narrow minded politicians and citizens did not allow the JTA to build the bus shelters using the private money for advertising. Short sightedness!
^I agree.
Quote
I think the recent changes will improve the existing bus system.
I sincerely hope so, Lake. However, with a lot of those routes still having 40+ minute headways, there's not going to be too much new incentive to hop a ride on one.
That, coupled with the L9 route change, means I can no longer utilize the bus for my daily work commute. They lost a passenger with that one.
Oh, I agree. They still have a long way to go. Personally, I don't think the overall image of mass transit in Jax will change until a serious investment in the development of a rail corridor is made. Until then, we're just bathing, buying a dress and putting lipstick on a pig.
I'll agree for the most part.
I've yet to see or hear a single JTA commercial on TV or the radio talking about bus route changes. All I hear is "without JTA, there'd be no JTB..." and blah, blah, blah.
A serious culture change is needed at JTA first, then a new ad campaign. Or maybe just a new ad campaign. Baby steps might produce more baby steps, as it were.
You can't get rail until you get new leadership. The mayor does not want it, the governor does not want it. Until you get new leaders who can raise the funds, its just a lot of hot air.
I agree, mtrain. But I'm even talking about just the *bus* route changes.
I've heard/read/seen *zero* from JTA about it. Advertising or otherwise. And I don't even know that they advertise their still-substandard website, as it's only there you're made aware that *anything's* changed at all.