Metro Jacksonville

QuoteBy Christopher Conkey

WASHINGTON -- Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood singled out California and Florida as leading candidates to secure federal funding for high-speed passenger-rail service.

"California and Florida are way ahead of the curve," Mr. LaHood said Friday at a breakfast gathering in Washington. He stressed that no final decisions have been made.

The Federal Railroad Administration, part of the Department of Transportation, will start awarding $8 billion in grants under the economic-stimulus program later this year to states with viable plans for building high-speed rail lines or upgrading existing passenger rail service. The Obama administration, in budget details released Thursday, said it wants to spend another $1 billion annually on high-speed rail over the next five years. Congress must approve the use of that $5 billion as part of its review of the fiscal 2010 budget.

Mr. LaHood said President Barack Obama "believes very deeply" that the U.S. should embark on a decades-long effort to establish a national network of high-speed passenger rail service, akin to the interstate-highway system launched by President Dwight D. Eisenhower more than five decades ago. The U.S. has to date spent more than $1 trillion to build and maintain the interstate highway system.

States and rail advocates are already jockeying to try and secure some of the federal transportation funding. Florida officials said they hoped to secure $1.5 billion to build rail service connecting Tampa and Orlando. California hopes to win significant funding for a planned, high-speed rail system with bullet trains traveling more than 200 miles an hour. The project, which would cost at least $30 billion, would initially link Los Angeles to San Francisco and later expand to San Diego and Sacramento. The state also hopes to secure grants to upgrade its existing network of intercity and commuter lines.

Mr. LaHood said "no one corridor is going to get all of this money" and that the DOT is "looking to create opportunities in every corridor that wants to make progress." Mr. LaHood has been meeting with many state and local officials to hear their arguments for securing passenger rail funding, including a meeting on Thursday with San Francisco mayor and California gubernatorial candidate Gavin Newsom.

Mr. Obama unveiled the administration's general approach to spending the $13 billion in transport funding last month. The Federal Rail Administration is expected to release more formal criteria for states to apply for funds in the weeks ahead. Still, Mr. LaHood said he had gained some early impressions through his meetings with state officials.

California is "way, way, way ahead," he said. As for the Midwest, where many officials are hoping to place Chicago at the center of a high-speed rail network stretching to St. Louis, Minneapolis, Cleveland and Detroit, Mr. LaHood said, "They're not in that position yet."

Mr. LaHood said he could envision funding "to get a little higher speed" for the Northeast corridor between Washington and Boston, which is the most popular passenger rail corridor in the country and the closest thing the nation has to European-style high-speed service. He also suggested funding could be used to "extend [that network] further up north to Vermont, Maine."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124179625738301017.html

Am I right in saying this article seems to contradict everything else that's been written/discussed on this site during the past few weeks?  I haven't had time to read everything, but I thought there were some issues with the Central Florida rail projects.  Someone give me the run down.

I really wonder if Florida is in the running. Despite the request of the HSR authority to get Governor Crist on board for participation in the federal grant competition, there has been no response yet from the Gov. Also notice more push back from the rail opponents such as the highway construction industry and groups like James Madison Institute. Florida may have done a lot of work but lacks the will power to go the distance.

actually the Governor came out in favor of HSR a few weeks ago

Quote from: brainstormer on May 10, 2009, 05:14:33 PM
Am I right in saying this article seems to contradict everything else that's been written/discussed on this site during the past few weeks?

No.  I posted an article in the high speed rail thread that Florida would seek HSR funds a few weeks ago.  Here is a link:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4748.msg74403.html#msg74403

QuoteI haven't had time to read everything, but I thought there were some issues with the Central Florida rail projects.  Someone give me the run down.

There are two Central Florida rail projects in play right now.  A high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando and Sunrail, Orlando's 61 mile commuter rail proposal.  The Sunrail deal has voted down about two weeks ago.  However, the HSR thing is alive due to Obama setting aside $13 billion for HSR over the next five years.  Since Florida's plan is a lot further than most, there is a good chance that the line between Tampa and Orlando will get enough funding to make it reality.

Quote from: lindab on May 10, 2009, 06:58:08 PM
I really wonder if Florida is in the running. Despite the request of the HSR authority to get Governor Crist on board for participation in the federal grant competition, there has been no response yet from the Gov.

The Governor is in favor.  Here are few quotes from a recent St. Pete Times article:

"This is an exciting thing," Gov. Charlie Crist said Friday after meeting with Florida Department of Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos. "We're obviously going to apply for the money."

Crist said he has no qualms about supporting high speed rail even after voters nixed the constitutional amendment in 2004.

"The rationale there was that it was going to put a hole in the state budget. That's not an illegitimate concern," he said. "Thank goodness for the stimulus money."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/masstransit/article993169.ece

Here's the proposed route of the high speed rail line between Tampa and Orlando.

(http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/2c_routes.gif)

Thanks Lake for clearing up the two different proposals.  I knew something had been voted down and now I understand.  HSR between Orlando and Tampa would do a lot to help business and tourism in both cities.  What about high speed rail between Jacksonville and Orlando?

There is no HSR connection between Jax and Orlando.  For the first few decades, it will probably be made with Amtrak intercity service.

(http://ekuzma.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/railmap.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 10, 2009, 09:29:38 PM
actually the Governor came out in favor of HSR a few weeks ago

QuoteCrist: Go For High Speed Rail Money
TALLAHASSEE --- Gov. Charlie Crist said Wednesday that Florida should go after federal stimulus money that is earmarked for high speed rail projects.

It appeared to be the first time that the governor has publicly endorsed going ahead with the "bullet train" concept. The high speed rail project proposes linking cities with fast-traveling express trains with limited stops; not to be confused with commuter rail.

The Obama Administration has made $8 billion in federal stimulus funds available to states with high speed rail projects ready to go. Only California and Florida meet those qualifications. Florida, which already has environmental and preliminary engineering studies on a route from the Orlando International Airport to downtown Tampa, appears to be ahead.

But Lee Chira, chairman of the nine-member Florida High Speed Rail Authority, who reconvened meetings of the group this year after three years of dormancy, chastised state leadership for not moving on the money. And Lakeland businessman C.C. "Doc" Dockery, whom Chira called the "father of Florida high speed rail," recently resigned his seat on the authority because of inaction from the state.

Wednesday, however, when asked during a meeting with Ledger editors in Tallahassee if he would go for the high speed rail money, the governor answered, "Yes, let's go for it.''

No mention when he, the speaker of the Florida House and the president of the Senate would each reappoint their three alloted members to the authority whose terms expired some time ago.



  Posted April 15, 2009 9:58:57 PM

http://politics.theledger.com/default.asp?item=2364360

QuoteTHE OTHER PASSENGER RAIL
Published: Sunday, May 10, 2009 at 9:16 p.m.
Last Modified: Sunday, May 10, 2009 at 9:16 p.m.


While tears and cheers were the order of the day for some on the CSX/commuter rail issue that suffered a temporary setback with defeat of indemnification for the railroad, there is another rail service waiting for money.

High-speed rail supporters have been saying Florida is a very good candidate for some of the $8 billion in federal grant money for bullet trains.

The Wall Street Journal reported that Florida and California are first in line for the money, but Crist has yet to appoint or reappoint members to the Florida High Speed Rail Authority, which his predecessor, Jeb Bush, tried to kill, even asking it to disband itself.

Crist told a group of Ledger editors April 15 that he favored going after the federal high-speed rail money.

But the eight remaining members of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority have yet to be reappointed or replaced even though all of their terms have expired.

The ninth member, Lakeland businessman C.C. "Doc" Dockery, resigned last month, expressing disgust over what he said was the apparent foot dragging by the governor and the Florida Department of Transportation.

The authority, however, is scheduled to meet Thursday in the Orlando Aviation Authority Board Room. Among the discussion items will be President Obama's Strategic High Speed Rail Vision Plan, the guidelines for applying for the stimulus grant and assessment of the competition for the grant money.

The Midwest seems to be on the president's list, but California and Florida are ahead, the Journal article said.

But if Florida continues on its local milk run pace, it just might get edged out of billions and a fast train, too.

[ Ledger Political Editor Bill Rufty can be reached at bill.rufty@theledger.com or 863-802-7523. His political blog is at politics.theledger.com. ]

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090510/COLUMNISTS/905105026/1062/YOURTOWN18?Title=Election-Cycles-Almost-Constant

While I'm usually an optimist, the previous history of the Florida state government regarding passenger rail through Florida tells me this will never happen, even though it sounds great. Jeb Bush killed HSR in FLA! Too many of the state contracted highway builders want this money to go somewhere else, instead of beginning a new reliable transportation mode in the state they won't make money on.

I suspect the mayor of Jacksonville is in the same fold.

From what I am hearing there is work being done to get the Jacksonville link on the Florida system. It is in the making. I dont know how that was ever allowed to happen.

QuoteFlorida officials said they hoped to secure $1.5 billion to build rail service connecting Tampa and Orlando.

That does not even sound like it is funded, rather its like a "fart in the wind", when will we learn? Crist is bailing tomorrow to make a run at senate, don't expect anything new to get done in Tally, with 1/3 of the legislative process gone further into his Miami girlfriends world.

Why would HSR work between Tampa and Orlando when regular rail between WPB, FTL and MIA is on the verge of collapse? All this and we are going to see another 3-4 cent rise in the fed gas tax. Then we hear that Obama wants to spend 5 BILLION on schools, close down 5,000 schools nationwide, release the faculty and rehire new ones.

He is SUCH a great morale builder.

mtrain, start a new thread under education about your distaste for Obama's plan, and I'll be happy to debate education policy with you.   ;)  I'd love to hear why you are against his plan.

QuoteI'd love to hear why you are against his plan.

Just another log on the fire, I suppose. Sure we need education reform, but now, on top of 787 billion in stimulus, an economy contracting, not enough more for SS and Medicare as it is, do we need to spend 5 billion on this, now?

One day soon, 80 cents for every dollar spent will be to pay down debt. Who lives that way?

Quote from: fsujax on May 11, 2009, 09:18:52 AM
From what I am hearing there is work being done to get the Jacksonville link on the Florida system. It is in the making. I dont know how that was ever allowed to happen.

the original HSR legislation required connecting Florida's 5 largest urban areas....they just decided to start with Tampa-Orlando-Miami....the argument being that Ft. Lauderdale and West Palm are separate urban areas from Miami, and are both bigger than Jax.

As someone living outside Florida who would like to see Jacksonville be a Mecca of Florida rail travel, I can't see a high-standard HSR being a viable mode of transportation anywhere in this country soon, and why the railroads with the greatest potential making money on freight (which is why Amtrak was formed, correct?) wouldn't be looking for their own style of bailout to pay for the infrastructure. Seems possible.

Florida has lots of airports, but most (if not all...must check this out) do not have a central area for a traveler to make a direct connection without involving another mode of travel, except renting a car or flying right       back out. The easier alternative connection during travel often sways me from your city.

I would like to see Florida have a progressive attitude toward the beginnings of HSR, vested by a practical state supported transportation system into and out of Jacksonville. Once the price of gas goes back up, others will be asking why the same didn't already happen.

Let's say that HSR came to Jacksonville. Where would it go from there? Would we go to Orlando, Miami, Tampa? How often would we go? After all HSR has to some day make a profit, since it is going across counties, the state would not dare manage it, probably outsource it. When would it turn a profit? How many years would it take?

If you can't turn a profit in a business venture, why even bother with it?

^HSR (High Speed Rail) in most cases will end up being "Higher Speed Rail" intercity rail travel.  This will be done by improving designated HSR corridors on existing lines through track capacity, ROW and infrastructure upgrades.  So assuming it came to Jacksonville, it could basically mean having Amtrak trains that reach their destinations quicker than they do today.  In other words, you'll have another decent alternative for travel beyond automobile or air travel.

Again, when would it turn a profit?

Sure, if you weight the capital and O&M costs with the amount of economic development it could spur and the reduction in highway construction costs along with it.  Alone, it would recoup more than typical major highway expansion projects would, plus begin to move the country away from continued sprawl development patterns.  If the investment goes to improving existing rail corridors in Florida, Amtrak has stated that they could break even, which is better than most can bring to the table.

Why would you propose spending time and money to break even? Why bother? That is like coaching a child to mediocrity. We're americans, we strive to do better. We lead the world....

Chicken and egg - You really need to fix downtown, and get people living in downtown to have rail work from the convention center. But to do this, you need businesses to be downtown, instead of moving out to sprawl, I agree, I dislike sprawl as well, but until people HAVE to travel downtown to work, you can't fix it. Most people can work from home now as well, so sprawl is probably with us for our lifetimes. I know you need more business downtown to get more people downtown. I don't know how to do that in this town.

If you do a total cost-benefit analysis for most rail transit systems, you'll see that they are a net positive...this includes looking at time/cost savings in delay/congestion, expanded tax rolls from new developments, and lower infrastructure costs for that development (sewers, roads, etc.).

The problem is no one ever truly looks at all of the secondary and cumulative effects of transportation decisions.

Could you show us some examples of such analysis?

as I said, they hardly ever get truly measured...its kind of hard to state unequivocally that a certain development did or did not happen because of a transportation investment.

But there is a good bit of data on a few websites...try

www.reconnectingamerica.org

www.vtpi.org

The most successful rail systems, where are they located? The so called "light rail"?

My bet is that they are in cities with a larger downtown population as well as a larger proportion of residents living downtown, to take advantage of the rail system.

With few people living downtown, essentially 2200 daily use the only light rail equivalent (just for you Ock). That is not enough to make a break even plan for yet another mediocre transportation plan.

Great, those sites prove my point, Minneapolis, Denver, LA, all have higher downtown populations than we currently have, and hence have more need for the service. Unless you plan to run light rail from Mandarin to STJTC, and call that a transportation alternative. No one has really said where light rail will connect in Jax.

Quote from: mtraininjax on May 14, 2009, 09:40:34 AM
After all HSR has to some day make a profit, since it is going across counties, the state would not dare manage it, probably outsource it. When would it turn a profit? How many years would it take?

If you can't turn a profit in a business venture, why even bother with it?

Just like I-95, High speed rail is not a business venture.

QuoteJust like I-95, High speed rail is not a business venture

Yet more people use I-95 than any rail in America. What is your logic?

You want the Feds to pay for the HSR? They just gave Amtrak a BILLION dollars, Amtrak should be able to prove it can do it before we look at another exercise as to how to lose money.

How much did I-95 cost? Was it a BILLION dollars? How much profit did it make last year?

I ask the same questions Lunican....how much has JTB made in the past 30 years??? I am dying to find out.

Quote from: mtraininjax on May 14, 2009, 10:47:27 AM

In

Quote from: Lunican on May 14, 2009, 10:52:06 AM
How much did I-95 cost? Was it a BILLION? How much profit did it make last year?

In 2009 dollars, bulding I-95 from I-10 to I-295 would likely cost close to a BILLION....

and yes, mtrain, there are many rail systems that carry more passengers than that portion of I-95...let's just say its about 200,000 vehicles per day (or 300,000 people) on the Fuller Warren bridge....the DC metro system carries more than 700,000 per day!

QuoteIn 2009 dollars, bulding I-95 from I-10 to I-295 would likely cost close to a BILLION....

and yes, mtrain, there are many rail systems that carry more passengers than that portion of I-95...let's just say its about 200,000 vehicles per day (or 300,000 people) on the Fuller Warren bridge....the DC metro system carries more than 700,000 per day!

I am not talking about DC, NYC, LA or any other large metro area with a large downtown presence of residents. We're talking about Jacksonville here. As I have stated today, after reviewing the new budget passed by the Legislature of Florida, all the rail zealots will have a hard time with the current administrations of Peyton and Crist, in getting any funds for rail projects. Rail projects were cut by 222 million dollars for next year in the State of Florida. And until the economy comes back, don't expect that to change.

Pontificate on what could be all you want. The fact is there is no money for it now.

Good point. And there never will be any money for rail if no one speaks up.

On a local level there is money from BJP waiting to be used.

The issue is there is money for it now. I worry we will use it to band aid some other important thing like education. When we should come up with a real  funding solution for education ect. Local and federal funds are here now for transit. Now is an important time to get to our representatives.

QuoteThe issue is there is money for it now.

Not local money, not state money, but maybe federal funds, as part of Amtrak. But Amtrak works with states that are friendly to its needs, and there are a number who have contributed much more to Amtrak and its needs over the years...Several states have entered into operating partnerships with Amtrak, notably California, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan, Oregon, Missouri, Washington, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Vermont, Maine, and New York....

Do you see Florida anywhere in that list? Sure we have clout and people and population, but if your in business and you only have so many dollars to spend, are you going to spend with a partner who has had your back, or gamble with a riskier investment, in today's economic times?

I don't see it happening until Peyton and Crist are gone, and even then its no guarantee.

I was thinking of the better jax row funds. I basically agree with your assessment however.

All of this is old news.  Locally, things break down something like this.

Commuter rail - We still need to conduct a few years of studies.  Its probably a decade down the road, but its study time now, if you want it to be operational a decade from now, with federal dollars.  Until then, it won't qualify for state or federal support anyway.  So in other words, continue to do the studies.

Amtrak - The money and will on Amtrak's part is there.  This can happen soon or years down the road.  This all depends on the State and City's will, which is currently nonexistent at best.  Nevertheless, the more reason to continue to aggressively lobby to build support to change decades long ignorance about rail and its benefits on the region's economy.

Streetcar - We already have money set aside for mass transit RIGHT NOW.  Its been sitting there for nearly 10 years.  In the past, JTA wanted to use around $100 million in BJP funds buying ROW for BRT.  However, due to opposition ;) and common sense, JTA's modified BRT plans involve existing streets, as opposed to extensive dedicated ROW.  Thus, a chunk of this money could be used for implementing a streetcar or starter commuter rail line, pending council approval.  This is another area we should be lobbying heavily right now.  The longer it sits unused or going to inferior transportation improvements (BRT), the better chance it will get raided to pay for some other public project.  If that happens, transit in Jax, will really be in trouble.

High Speed Rail - As long as Obama is in office, a major project will end up happening somewhere.  The way it now looks, that HSR line in Central Florida will receive federal HSR funds.  If it does, it will either spur additional local and intercity rail improvements statewide to complement it or it will become an expensive boondoggle that sets back rail transit in this state for another decade.

In short, it may not seem like much, but the local push for rail has come a long way in the last three years.  Now is not the time to give up because mtraininjax thinks so.  With Peyton's term coming to an end, its time to kick the door down.

We need to also lobby for a transit friendly Governor.

Quote from: mtraininjax on May 15, 2009, 04:40:55 PM
Rail projects were cut by 222 million dollars for next year in the State of Florida. And until the economy comes back, don't expect that to change.

does the $222 include money for freight rail...and how much money was cut from road projects?

Federal Railroad Administration’s (FRA) High-Speed and Intercity Passenger Rail Workshops

Through these workshops, FRA is reaching out to the rail community in seven regions across the country to seek your input on the Interim Guidance we are required to issue on or before June 17, 2009, for the $8 billion in grant funds provided by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) for the high-speed rail corridors program, intercity passenger rail grants, and congestion grants.  The workshops will enable FRA to discuss the HSR Strategic Plan with key stakeholders such as state departments of transportation, regional planning authorities, metropolitan leaders, associations and labor groups (under the ARRA, these workshops exclude the participation of lobbyists).  We seek your input not only to provide us with your regional vision of high-speed and intercity rail networks, but to enable stakeholders to focus on the critical factors that will make this program a success for generations to come.

The workshop schedule will include the following:

1.   Introduction                        10 minutes
2.   Overview of FRA strategic plan and next steps            30 minutes
3.   Amtrak presentation                     15 minutes
4.   Q & A                           35 minutes
5.   Regional presentation                     30 minutes
6.   Break                           15 minutes
7.   Working group break-out                  1 hour
8.   Wrap-up                           15 minutes
The workshops will be held 1:00 p.m. â€" 4:30 p.m. on the following dates and locations

Please RSVP at the following Web site :  https://survey.deloitte.com/wsb.dll/5644/FRARegistration.htm

I wonder if anyone from JTA, the TPO, Mayors Office or the Council will be in attendance to represent Jacksonville and the First Coast?

QuoteAll of this is old news.  Locally, things break down something like this.

You are correct, nice plug in the TU, but everything below here requires money, and if the money were available, we'd see action, instead of talk.

QuoteCommuter rail - We still need to conduct a few years of studies.  Its probably a decade down the road, but its study time now, if you want it to be operational a decade from now, with federal dollars.  Until then, it won't qualify for state or federal support anyway.  So in other words, continue to do the studies.

Study away all they want, JTA hire the folks to come in and give an idea of what is needed on down the road, again, no money down the road to inact what is studied, but let's load the gun, even if we never get to shoot it.

QuoteAmtrak - The money and will on Amtrak's part is there.  This can happen soon or years down the road.  This all depends on the State and City's will, which is currently nonexistent at best.  Nevertheless, the more reason to continue to aggressively lobby to build support to change decades long ignorance about rail and its benefits on the region's economy.

The only will I know of is that of you, Corrine and the folks from Amtrak who were here in town today to hire a few people and send the message that we can hire people for government work. If Orlando could not get their 61 mile deal done with Amtrak's help, a lot more is going to have to change that just the winds in the State and City. Meaning much more federal grease money will be needed to get the trains moving for Amtrak assistance here. As it is people still throw around the idea of putting Amtrak back downtown at the prime. Do we still want a revived Amtrak experience to operate from Edgewood? E-gad.

QuoteStreetcar - We already have money set aside for mass transit RIGHT NOW.  Its been sitting there for nearly 10 years.  In the past, JTA wanted to use around $100 million in BJP funds buying ROW for BRT.  However, due to opposition  and common sense, JTA's modified BRT plans involve existing streets, as opposed to extensive dedicated ROW.  Thus, a chunk of this money could be used for implementing a streetcar or starter commuter rail line, pending council approval.  This is another area we should be lobbying heavily right now.  The longer it sits unused or going to inferior transportation improvements (BRT), the better chance it will get raided to pay for some other public project.  If that happens, transit in Jax, will really be in trouble.

The only way I see the BRT operating as it was drawn out in the S line, is if Corrine and her pals make it happen. Why else would you build that there? I still think that the rubber-tire buses should be used on this line, to make the case that spending the 100 million makes sense, in this day and age. Corrine says she has 27% unemployment in areas around the S line. Is that the best place to put our transportation resources, with so many unemployed? You could say yes, if you wanted to help the empoverished, or No, if you look to where it is really needed in the city.

QuoteHigh Speed Rail - As long as Obama is in office, a major project will end up happening somewhere.  The way it now looks, that HSR line in Central Florida will receive federal HSR funds.  If it does, it will either spur additional local and intercity rail improvements statewide to complement it or it will become an expensive boondoggle that sets back rail transit in this state for another decade.

That will be a fun initiative when the State said no to HSR in Central Florida, but Obama wants it? Do you think we as Floridians can vote for off-shore drilling, only to have Obama tell us no? I say we trade a vote for a vote and see which industry puts more people back to work quickest.

QuoteIn short, it may not seem like much, but the local push for rail has come a long way in the last three years.  Now is not the time to give up because mtraininjax thinks so.  With Peyton's term coming to an end, its time to kick the door down.

You may be right that local push has come a long way, but it does not appear so. If the coffers were full, we had a courthouse built, we had a new transportation station downtown, and we had a state and mayor who were pro-rail, you could find the solutions you desire, much easier to pass. If you want to see the Transportation initiatives for 2009 in the state, go to http://www.thepeoplesbudget.state.fl.us/bdissuedetail.aspx?irnum=65&si=55100100