With the swine flu alert sweeping the country, President Obama and the Centers for Disease Control urge people with flu symptoms to stay home. This is a common sense measure to limit the spread of what might be a dangerous virus.
Only one problem, as the New York Times reminds us in an editorial this morning. About 60 million Americans don't have paid sick leave. Many can be fired if they stay home. And if not fired, many simply can't afford to lose the hours.
43% of private sector American workers have no paid sick days at all. And needless to say the most vulnerable have the least protection. A 2007 EPI study showed that workers at the bottom of the wage scale, those making less than $7.38 an hour, are five times less likely to have sick days than workers at the top of the scale, those making greater than $29.47 an hour. Only 16% of low-wage workers have access to paid sick days.
This is a barbarity that is dangerous to your health. Women -- who tend still to be disproportionately in part-time and low wage work -- are particularly at risk.
More than 160 countries, the Times tells us, have laws that ensure all their citizens receive paid sick leave and more than 110 of them guarantee paid leave from the first day of illness. The US does not. The reason goes no further than the influence of money on politics.
We once provided much of our social contract through the corporation rather than the Congress. Strong unions could negotiate a family wage, health care, overtime pay, paid sick leave, paid vacations, and pensions. Many non-union employers offered benefits similar to those provided by union companies. But over the last decades of this conservative era, as unions grew weaker under attack, more and more corporations simply shredded those agreements.
Now we'll have to enact these basic guarantees -- central to what Franklin Roosevelt called the Economic Bill of Rights -- in law. But each reform will have to overcome the resistance of entrenched lobbies, buying the protection of compromised legislators.
In 2005, Senator Ted Kennedy and Rep. Rosa DeLauro introduced a bill entitled the Health Families Act that would mandate up to seven paid sick days for employees in firms with more than 15 employees (and pro-rated leave for part-time employees). You'd think this would be a no brainer. It never came to a vote in the Senate. Obama pledged to support seven day paid sick leave in his campaign.
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2009051906/corruption-dangerous-your-health
Here's a list of countries. Places like Colombia,Pakistan and Saudi Arabia give their workers days off.
Country Legally required minimum leave
Argentina 14 calendar days (from 0 to 5 years seniority), 21 calendar days (from 5 to 10), 28 calendar days (from 10 to 20) and 35 calendar days (from 20)
Australia As of 27 March 2006, 20 work days (4 weeks). 2 weeks can be "sold" to employer. Additional Long service leave is also payable. 10 public holidays as well are payable to employees.
Austria 5 weeks
The Bahamas 14 days after 1 year employment, 21 day after 5 years employment
Belgium 20 days, premium pay
Brazil 30 consecutive days after 1 year employment, of which 10 can be sold back to the employer
Bulgaria minimum 20 working days
Canada Determined by provincial law. 10-15 working days depending on province. In addition, 5-10 public holidays depending on province.
Chile 15 working days
Colombia 15 working days for every year, vacations can be accumulated for up to 4 years (up to 60 working days of vacations)
Costa Rica 2 weeks after 1 year employment.
China 11 working days.
Croatia 18 working days. Saturdays can be included even if company offices are not open on Saturdays. This is left for employers and employees to agree.
Czech Republic 4 weeks
Denmark 25 work days minimum + 5 "special days"
Dominican Republic 14 work days after one year employment, 20 work days after 5 years employment.
Estonia 28 calendar days
European Union 4 weeks, more in some countries
Ecuador 14 days
Finland 5 weeks (30 days with Saturdays, but not Sundays counted as holidays) is the minimum mandated by law. More precisely: vacation is accrued between 1.4. - 31.3. each year and used primarily during the following summer holiday period. During each such full period 2,5 vacation days are accrued per month. When taking up a new job, only 2 days are accrued until the start of the first full period. Many trade unions have been able to agree for more vacation time for their profession
France 5 weeks[1] (+ 2 weeks of RTT (Reduction du Temps de Travail, in English : Reduction of Working Time) according to the contract)
Germany 4 working weeks
Greece 20 working days or more depending on the years in the company
Guatemala 2 working weeks
Hong Kong 7 days
Hungary 20 working days (increasing up to 30 with age)
Ireland 4 working weeks (20 days if working full time), plus 9 public holidays
India 60 Days
Israel from 12 working days for the first year to 24 days for 14-th year and on, not including official holidays, sick leave, etc.
Italy 20-32 working days (exact amount depends on contract details) plus 12 public holidays
Japan including sick leave: 18 days paid time off;
officially, five weeks (in reaction to the karoshi problem)
Jersey 2 weeks[2]
Korea, South 10 working days
Latvia 4 weeks
Lithuania 4 weeks (20 working days)
Malaysia Starts at 8 days for first 2 years employment with an employer. Increases to 12 days for between 2 and 5 years employment and 16 days for 5 or more years. Plus, depending on which state, around 14 public holidays.
Mexico Starts at minimum 6 days for the 1 year of employment. Increases to 8 days after the second year, to 10 days after the third year, 12 days after the fourth year and to 14 days from year 5 o year 9; then every 5 years increases two days.
Netherlands 4 weeks
New Zealand 4 weeks as of April 1, 2007, plus 11 paid public holidays.
Norway 25 working days
Pakistan 15 working days
Paraguay 14 days
Peru 14 days
Philippines 5 days, rendered at least 1 year of service is entitled to a yearly service incentive leave.
Poland 20 business days, 26 business days after 10 years of employment
Portugal 22 working days, up to 25 without work absences in previous year.
Puerto Rico 15 days
Romania minimum 21 working days
Russia 28 calendar days[3]
Saudi Arabia 30 days
Serbia 20 working days minimum
Singapore 14 days (executive and above); 7 days with 1 additional day per year up to a maximum of 14 days (non-executive)
Slovakia 20 days, 25 days after 15 years of employment
South Africa 21 consecutive days
Spain 30 calendar days
Sweden 25 work days minimum
Switzerland 28 calendar days (= 20 work days)
Taiwan 7 days
Turkey 12 work days
Tunisia 30 work days
Ukraine 24 calendar days
United Kingdom As of 1 October 2007, 4.8 weeks (24 work days) with no additional entitlement for bank holidays and 5.6 weeks (28 work days) from 1 April 2009.[4]
United States none[5]
Uruguay 14 days
Venezuela 15 paid days for the first year + 1 day extra for every year of service until reaching 30 days. In addition, a maximum of 12 public holidays provided every holiday falls on a weekday.
Vietnam 10 working days.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/2007-05-no-vacation-nation.pdf (http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/2007-05-no-vacation-nation.pdf)
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/no-vacation-nation/ (http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/no-vacation-nation/)
A previous thread on work weeks and paid vacation...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4513.0.html
Here's an excerpt from an article by Steve Chapman for reason.com about the swine flu and sick days:
The epidemic has been a boon to supporters of a bill called the Healthy Families Act, which would require companies with 15 or more employees to provide each of them with seven paid sick days a year. Public health authorities ask those who are sick to stay home, but "they don't give any thought to the half of workers who don't have paid sick days," laments Karen Minatelli of the National Partnership for Women and Families.
But she overstates the problem. Data from the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics indicate that 86 percent of full-time employees have paid time off that they can use when illness strikes them or their children.
Supporters of the measure forget that if companies are forced to provide paid leave, they will compensate, sooner or later, by reducing wages. Given the tradeoff, some workers (particularly those who rarely get sick) would rather have the cash. This legislation attempts to make them better off by depriving them of that option, all in the name of sparing their fellow citizens an attack of swine flu.
Most of us are likely to escape that virus. But no inoculation can rescue us from the fever gripping Washington.
The whole article is at: http://www.reason.com/news/show/133276.html
Quote from: CrysG on May 07, 2009, 08:26:26 AM
Here's a list of countries. Places like Colombia,Pakistan and Saudi Arabia give their workers days off.
Country Legally required minimum leave
Argentina 14 calendar days (from 0 to 5 years seniority), 21 calendar days (from 5 to 10), 28 calendar days (from 10 to 20) and 35 calendar days (from 20)
Australia As of 27 March 2006, 20 work days (4 weeks). 2 weeks can be "sold" to employer. Additional Long service leave is also payable. 10 public holidays as well are payable to employees.
Austria 5 weeks
The Bahamas 14 days after 1 year employment, 21 day after 5 years employment
Belgium 20 days, premium pay
Brazil 30 consecutive days after 1 year employment, of which 10 can be sold back to the employer
Bulgaria minimum 20 working days
Canada Determined by provincial law. 10-15 working days depending on province. In addition, 5-10 public holidays depending on province.
Chile 15 working days
Colombia 15 working days for every year, vacations can be accumulated for up to 4 years (up to 60 working days of vacations)
Costa Rica 2 weeks after 1 year employment.
China 11 working days.
Croatia 18 working days. Saturdays can be included even if company offices are not open on Saturdays. This is left for employers and employees to agree.
Czech Republic 4 weeks
Denmark 25 work days minimum + 5 "special days"
Dominican Republic 14 work days after one year employment, 20 work days after 5 years employment.
Estonia 28 calendar days
European Union 4 weeks, more in some countries
Ecuador 14 days
Finland 5 weeks (30 days with Saturdays, but not Sundays counted as holidays) is the minimum mandated by law. More precisely: vacation is accrued between 1.4. - 31.3. each year and used primarily during the following summer holiday period. During each such full period 2,5 vacation days are accrued per month. When taking up a new job, only 2 days are accrued until the start of the first full period. Many trade unions have been able to agree for more vacation time for their profession
France 5 weeks[1] (+ 2 weeks of RTT (Reduction du Temps de Travail, in English : Reduction of Working Time) according to the contract)
Germany 4 working weeks
Greece 20 working days or more depending on the years in the company
Guatemala 2 working weeks
Hong Kong 7 days
Hungary 20 working days (increasing up to 30 with age)
Ireland 4 working weeks (20 days if working full time), plus 9 public holidays
India 60 Days
Israel from 12 working days for the first year to 24 days for 14-th year and on, not including official holidays, sick leave, etc.
Italy 20-32 working days (exact amount depends on contract details) plus 12 public holidays
Japan including sick leave: 18 days paid time off;
officially, five weeks (in reaction to the karoshi problem)
Jersey 2 weeks[2]
Korea, South 10 working days
Latvia 4 weeks
Lithuania 4 weeks (20 working days)
Malaysia Starts at 8 days for first 2 years employment with an employer. Increases to 12 days for between 2 and 5 years employment and 16 days for 5 or more years. Plus, depending on which state, around 14 public holidays.
Mexico Starts at minimum 6 days for the 1 year of employment. Increases to 8 days after the second year, to 10 days after the third year, 12 days after the fourth year and to 14 days from year 5 o year 9; then every 5 years increases two days.
Netherlands 4 weeks
New Zealand 4 weeks as of April 1, 2007, plus 11 paid public holidays.
Norway 25 working days
Pakistan 15 working days
Paraguay 14 days
Peru 14 days
Philippines 5 days, rendered at least 1 year of service is entitled to a yearly service incentive leave.
Poland 20 business days, 26 business days after 10 years of employment
Portugal 22 working days, up to 25 without work absences in previous year.
Puerto Rico 15 days
Romania minimum 21 working days
Russia 28 calendar days[3]
Saudi Arabia 30 days
Serbia 20 working days minimum
Singapore 14 days (executive and above); 7 days with 1 additional day per year up to a maximum of 14 days (non-executive)
Slovakia 20 days, 25 days after 15 years of employment
South Africa 21 consecutive days
Spain 30 calendar days
Sweden 25 work days minimum
Switzerland 28 calendar days (= 20 work days)
Taiwan 7 days
Turkey 12 work days
Tunisia 30 work days
Ukraine 24 calendar days
United Kingdom As of 1 October 2007, 4.8 weeks (24 work days) with no additional entitlement for bank holidays and 5.6 weeks (28 work days) from 1 April 2009.[4]
United States none[5]
Uruguay 14 days
Venezuela 15 paid days for the first year + 1 day extra for every year of service until reaching 30 days. In addition, a maximum of 12 public holidays provided every holiday falls on a weekday.
Vietnam 10 working days.
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/2007-05-no-vacation-nation.pdf (http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/2007-05-no-vacation-nation.pdf)
http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/no-vacation-nation/ (http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/no-vacation-nation/)
HMMM, it seems the norm is 4 weeks of sick coverage per year in asdvanced nations, and 7 days per year in developing nations.
And we are bickering over a mandate for up to 7 days?
We are so far behind......
We libertarian freaks are always going to bicker about mandates. We're pro choice on almost everything.
Yay, more federal gov't, yay
If you don't like the benefits given by your employer
A) find a new job
B) start a company and take as many days off as you wish (let me know how effective your company is when you are paying people who don't show up for a week or four per year)
Yepper, just what we need, more mommy government.
QuoteA government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
�Thomas Jefferson
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2009, 09:34:27 PM
Yay, more federal gov't, yay
If you don't like the benefits given by your employer
A) find a new job
B) start a company and take as many days off as you wish (let me know how effective your company is when you are paying people who don't show up for a week or four per year)
Every other developed country can give their workers paid mandatory day off but America.....Lord no.....we like having sick co workers cough all over us. We LOVE forcing parents to worry about if they can afford to take a day off for sick child.
In semi related news.
http://tinyurl.com/omxf5u (http://tinyurl.com/omxf5u)
So, if the government chooses not to mandate paid sick days they are "forcing parents to worry about if they can afford to take a day off for sick child"?
Please. As pointed out in the article excerpt I posted above, such a mandate would eventually result in lower wages to compensate for the cost and healthy workers might prefer the cash to the sick days. Lets not have "one size fits all" government mandates that take choices away from workers and employers.
I think what's interesting with that argument is that every other country on that list has mandatory time off. Do you think that all those employee are having to struggle with a low wage? Do you think the people of England are standing in the bread line because their government puts people first? Nope.
And what is this choice you speak of? You ever get paid days off or you don't. You can't go to your boss and say I'll take my paid days off now, thank you.
Another story on this problem.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/SwineFlu/story?id=7480732&page=1
Quote from: whitey on May 08, 2009, 09:34:27 PM
Yay, more federal gov't, yay
If you don't like the benefits given by your employer
A) find a new job
B) start a company and take as many days off as you wish (let me know how effective your company is when you are paying people who don't show up for a week or four per year)
Werd.
Well it seems some do have lots of paid sick leave!!!!
QuoteThe fired chief executive of Visit Florida will get a $536,637.36 severance package, acccording to Richard Goldman, chairman of the marketing agency's board of directors.
The package for Bud Nocera includes $476,668 in remaining salarly, $17,500 in car allowance, $41,876.35 in accrued vacation time and sick leave and $593.01 in expenses. Nocera will not get any pro-rated bonus, Goldman said. He will get health and retirement benefits for the next two years and one month.
Goldman, responding to criticism from state Sen. Mike Fasano, said Visit Florida will pay Nocera's severance package with funds from private sources. "We certainly are not going to spend state tax dollars on the severance of Mr. Nocera," Goldman said.
Of course, critics say that's a distinction without a difference, noting that Visit Florida has historically mixed public and private money together.
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/05/total-exit-package-for-visit-florida-boss-537000.html
Economic security for a select few,......but no economic security for most of us.
QuoteOnly one problem, as the New York Times reminds us in an editorial this morning. About 60 million Americans don't have paid sick leave. Many can be fired if they stay home. And if not fired, many simply can't afford to lose the hours.
43% of private sector American workers have no paid sick days at all.
Who said it was the right of every American to have a job? Is everyone complaining about not getting a raise this year or is it now sick leave? Fine walk out, there are 5.7 million americans who have lost a job since the fall of 2007, who will be looking for the job you walked out of.
It is a privelidge to have a job, people should be happy to have one, if not happy, go find another one.
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 11:14:50 PM
Who said it was the right of every American to have a job? Is everyone complaining about not getting a raise this year or is it now sick leave? Fine walk out, there are 5.7 million americans who have lost a job since the fall of 2007, who will be looking for the job you walked out of.
It is a privelidge to have a job, people should be happy to have one, if not happy, go find another one.
Hmmmm, you're right..........I guess all employers should take advantage of our nationwide crisis and cut people's pay while they can, because remember: it's a privilege to have a job.
Yes he is right Faye. It is most certainly the employers right to cut pay and benefits... especially in a time of crisis. I AM NOT ENDORSING THIS... it is simply his right. As for the article about the Chief executive who was fired... Faye... you have every right to go get that exact same package for yourself... or even better. In fact Faye... with proper motivation, education, and yes a bit of luck ANYBODY can get those things.
Additionally... the 42k in accrued vacation and sick time shows that he did not use it. He did not take sick days nor did he take vacations... hence a large accrual.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 13, 2009, 06:49:40 AM
In fact Faye... with proper motivation, education, and yes a bit of luck ANYBODY can get those things.
bridgetroll, most of us know:
Very few can get those things, certainly at the level of Bud Nocera.
QuoteEconomic Snapshots
EPI Economic Snapshots featuring data from the forthcoming SWA 2008/2009 are now available:
Dismal employment trends characterize 2000s business cycle
Read the Economic Snapshot for August 6, 2008 to see how the 2000s business cycle failed to perform on the employment front.
Growing disparities in life expectancy
While life expectancy has grown in the United States, the degree to which people live longer has become increasingly connected to their socio-economic status. In two decades, the life expectancy gap between those at the top of the socio-economic scale and those at the bottom has grown wider. Read about it in the Snapshot for July 16, 2008.
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/previews.html
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 13, 2009, 06:49:40 AM
Additionally... the 42k in accrued vacation and sick time shows that he did not use it. He did not take sick days nor did he take vacations... hence a large accrual.
No, he was able to accrue it because it was there for him to accrue.
43% of people working in private industry have none of that to accrue. So used or unused, it's simply not available to them.
Quotebridgetroll, most of us know: HARDLY anyone can get those things.
:D As I thought... I cannot so... you should not either. You are correct that the percentage of folks that have his benefits are small....
THE POINT WAS... Anybody can aspire to and attain those things. You seem envious that he got there and you and everybdy else did not.
Quote43% of people working in private industry have none of that to accrue.
I assume there are facts out there to back this assertion up?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 13, 2009, 12:51:15 PM
Quotebridgetroll, most of us know: HARDLY anyone can get those things.
:D As I thought... I cannot so... you should not either. You are correct that the percentage of folks that have his benefits are small....
THE POINT WAS... Anybody can aspire to and attain those things. You seem envious that he got there and you and everybdy else did not.
Quote43% of people working in private industry have none of that to accrue.
I assume there are facts out there to back this assertion up?
It's not a "I cannot,.....so you should not either" issue, nor is it an envy issue. The "American Dream" has become less and less attainable,.....we as workers are falling further and further behind:
You ought to read this 2005 report, knowing things are even worse today:
Supersize This: How CEO Pay Took Off While America’s Middle Class Struggled QuoteThe American dream is one of upward mobility. We believe that if you work hard andplay by the rules, you should be able to provide for your family and ensure that your children have greater opportunity than you were afforded. But today, the dream of true upward mobility has been limited to a select class of corporate executives while the dreams of middle-class families have been deferred. Corporate CEOs have enjoyed record levels of compensation and corporations have seen record profits, as more and more middle-class Americans are experiencing stagnant wages and vanishing benefits. This expanding inequality is not the American dream.
QuoteIn 2004, the average CEO received 240 times more than the compensation earned by the average worker. In 2002, the ratio was 145 to 1.
http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/ceo_pay_web_final.pdf
The 43% of workers in private industry without sick leave to accrue is in the original article that started this thread.
Quotelimited to a select class of corporate executives
Where do these executives come from Faye? They werent born executives. They went to school, entered the workforce and did better than most people. Why I even bet they worked in jobs that did not give them paid time off. They were entry level service type jobs that are not meant to be a carreer.
These people do not my defense and that is not my intent. Some people will always have more than others... That the CEO pay gap has increased is more a function of corporate boards and stock holders. I assume if I offered you 245 times the pay of you co workers you would not turn it down...
From the National Partnership of Women and Children:
Did you see the news? The swine flu is spreading so far and fast that state health officials may stop counting individual cases.
The government recommends you stay home if you’re sick, but nearly 100 million workers don’t have a single paid sick day to care for a sick child, ailing parent or spouse, or other family member.
Please take a minute to urge your elected leaders to support paid sick days today.
All workers in the United States need paid sick days. And this Monday, the Healthy Families Act will be introduced on Capitol Hill.
The Healthy Families Act is federal legislation that would let workers earn up to seven paid sick days per year.
In a nation that prides itself on family values, we need to do a better job of valuing our nation's families.
You have a voice. Make it heard.
http://www.nationalpartnership.org/site/PageServer?pagename=psd_alert_cosponsorHFA
I get 5 paid sick days per year. I also get 3 weeks of paid vacation per year, because I've been with my company for 7 years. I also get a floating holiday. And major holidays.
Those 100 million workers need to take that issue up with the company they work for. It's on the individual company to determine and allocate sick time like that. Have those people urge their Human Resources Departments to take action. That's one of the reason an H.R. Department exists. It's none of the Federal Government's business.
Please stop advocating the further intrusion of Big Brother/Big Government in my life. They're screwing everything else up as it is.
And 100 million workers? Dubious. The total population of the country is just over 300 million. There are a crapload of retired persons and children not yet in the workforce - probably something like another third of the population.
That means half the workforce in this country allegedly doesn't have sick time? Come on...
Another point that I want to point out. The people that are least likely to have sick days are people who have lower wage jobs. The jobs that most of the people on this board do not have nor would they want.
And isn't not those who work. I have a family friend who's husband makes 30/hour (which is way above the minimum wage) and who live within their means but they can't afford to add the wife to the 600 a month medical coverage his company offers to cover 2 adults. She was recently sick and because his company doesn't allow for sick leave to be used for anyone but him she was home alone and really sick.
How does that effect the greater population? He came home and took care of his wife and the next morning he took himself to work, germs and all. So think about that the next time your coworker tells you they have a love one home sick. THEY BRING THE ILLNESS WITH THEM.
There's also the option of getting your own individual health care plan, independent of any health care coverage the company you work for offers. It's not expensive, if you shop around.
There's also COBRA.
There is plenty opposition the the Act also... Opposition does not mean you are anti worker nor anti family as we will invariably be painted.
http://www.allbusiness.com/labor-employment/compensation-benefits-employee-leave-sick/8902589-1.html
Quote"The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is strongly opposed to this legislation," said Marc Freedman, director of Labor Law Policy for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.
QuoteAn initial analysis conducted by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce suggests employers will endure an additional $71.8 billion per year in payroll costs. According to Freedman, this amounts to an average of $886 per full-time employee annually, and that taffy doesn't include the additional costs that the Healthy Families Act imposes in record keeping and paperwork burdens, lost productivity and compliance.
QuoteHe also cautions that since the bill works against the popular grain, it may force companies to eliminate other paid time off, such as vacation time.
"Consider the example where a poorly funded company can barely afford to allow employees to use non-paid absences due to lost production. What would stop another employer from simply eliminating their one-week vacation benefit in exchange for a mandated sick day policy?"
QuoteBusiness advocates are hopeful that the bill will fall to the wayside. As Phillips concluded, "The Healthy Families Act is a fine example of the government responding to interest groups to perhaps pick up some votes on the way. The act gets employees and groups excited, especially if they don't understand a lot of the basic employment benefit design methods. There is more bark than bite in, this dog of an act."
*Fist-bump to my fellow worker-hating, family-hating, big-oil-kowtowing Conservative*
::)
How about this, as an alternative to watching Medicare go broke?
You pay MediCare taxes on income up to something like $102K or $110K or some such. After which, the percentage you're supposed to pay into it goes away. The Obama Administration recently proposed re-introducing Medicare taxes above the $250K income level. How about making *everyone* pay into it at the same percentage rate, regardless of income?
Quote*Fist-bump to my fellow worker-hating, family-hating, big-oil-kowtowing Conservative*
:D :D :D
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 13, 2009, 02:44:53 PM
There's also the option of getting your own individual health care plan, independent of any health care coverage the company you work for offers. It's not expensive, if you shop around.
There's also COBRA.
HMMM. have you tried to get one with a pre-existing condition?
How about the current stimulus tax payer subsidies for private insurance through unaffordable COBRA?
Unnecessary you say?
QuoteMay 11, 2009
You might qualify to extend your health benefits if you're laid off
By Sandra Block
Gannett News Service
Even if you've done everything you're supposed to do to prepare for a layoff - built up an emergency fund, paid off your credit cards, set up an account on LinkedIn - losing your employer-provided health insurance could demolish your finances. Your health could suffer, too.
While many insurers offer individual policies, they're primarily targeted at the young and healthy. Individuals who are older or have medical problems are often turned down or charged prohibitively high rates.
The economic stimulus package enacted this year seeks to address this problem by lowering the cost of continuing your former employer's health insurance. Unfortunately, many laid-off workers are discovering that they're ineligible for this subsidy. Others may need to take extra steps to demonstrate they're qualified.
Under the federal Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act, or COBRA, laid-off workers can continue their former employer's health coverage for up to 18 months. In the past, participants had to pay 102 percent of the premiums, making COBRA unaffordable for most unemployed workers.
The stimulus package subsidizes 65 percent of COBRA premiums for up to nine months for individuals who were laid off between Sept. 1, 2008, and the end of this year. With the subsidy, the average family will pay $377 a month or $140 for an individual, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.
That's still more than most employees pay for insurance while they're working. But if you're eligible for the subsidy, you should try to take advantage of it, says Ron Pollack, executive director of Families USA, a health care advocacy group.
Signing up for COBRA will allow you to continue the same coverage you had when you were working, even if you or anyone in your family has medical problems. In addition, it will preserve your ability to get insurance in the future, even if you have a pre-existing medical condition.
Reasons you may be ineligible for the COBRA subsidy:
• Your former employer has gone out of business or terminated its group coverage. These companies are no longer covered by COBRA, says Michael Langan, principal at Towers Perrin, a human resources consultant.
• You lost your job because of gross misconduct or left voluntarily.
However, recently issued guidelines from the IRS "take a very liberal position" on what constitutes involuntary termination, Langan says. For example, if you're unemployed because your employer closed your branch, that counts as an involuntary termination, Langan says, even if your company offered you a job in another part of the country.
Similarly, employees who accepted a buyout because their employer said the offer would be followed by layoffs qualify for the subsidy, he says.
The Labor Department has an appeals process for unemployed workers who were denied the subsidy.
Go to www.dol.gov/cobra.
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090511/BUSINESS/905110312&template=printart
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 13, 2009, 02:58:39 PM
You pay MediCare taxes on income up to something like $102K or $110K or some such.
Not so, we already pay Medicare tax on all earnings. It's only Social Security (FICA) that is capped at $106,800.
Quote from: FayeforCure on May 13, 2009, 05:25:49 PM
How about the current stimulus tax payer subsidies for private insurance through unaffordable COBRA?
Unnecessary you say?
Judging from the complete yawn of response from potential enrollees at my employer, yes, I'd say it was unnecessary. Add to that a huge burden on the company to administer a complicated program that was slammed in at the last minute and will expire before anyone figures out how it works. I'm sure it looked great on paper...
This bill is an emotional responose to an emotional problem. Paid sick days mandated by the government sounds great at first look.... after you lift the veil it is the ugly stepsister.
Stop. Think. Proceed with extreme caution...
The I guess the rest of the modern world likes an ugly sister.
Quote from: FayeforCure on May 13, 2009, 05:06:57 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 13, 2009, 02:44:53 PM
There's also the option of getting your own individual health care plan, independent of any health care coverage the company you work for offers. It's not expensive, if you shop around.
There's also COBRA.
HMMM. have you tried to get one with a pre-existing condition?
Have to agree with Faye on this one, if your in very good health and have no pre existing conditions its not to bad. If you young you can get a catastophic policy which will be pretty cheap. But as you get older need more coverage. BCBS offered me one for just myself at 180 a month good deal, with my wife not so much, paying 840 a month right now.
Any of our small business owners care to chime in? I wonder how well Waffa and Mikes might survive if they had to comply with this. Stephen owned Boomtown... I wonder how many paid days off he gave his staff? How about the Pearl or Shanty? Force this legislation on them and see what happens...
BT,
You pointed out the people who need paid time off the most....the one's who touch our FOOD.
And to add, preexisting conditions, could be anything from UTI to a baby with jaundice.
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20090226_Attacks_mount_on__preexisting_conditions_.html
So you would rather the business close or layoff people? It is managements job to send people home who are too ill to be there...
Quote from: hooplady on May 13, 2009, 06:15:43 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 13, 2009, 02:58:39 PM
You pay MediCare taxes on income up to something like $102K or $110K or some such.
Not so, we already pay Medicare tax on all earnings. It's only Social Security (FICA) that is capped at $106,800.
I stand corrected - thanks for clarifying!
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 14, 2009, 08:21:15 AM
So you would rather the business close or layoff people? It is managements job to send people home who are too ill to be there...
HAHAHAHAH......I needed that laugh.....
Yeah they MIGHT send them home, but they wont pay them. For some people a days wage means the difference between eating or getting gas to get to and from work. My God you make it seem like passing a bill to allow sick people to be sick is going to some how bring down every single small business. I will never feel the same way....nor will any of the small business owners in England or France......Come on....
You must not know too many then... the ones I know and and have asked about it, simply cannot afford to pay people to not work. It really IS that simple. I suppose they might have no objection if the government pays for them to be sick... How about that?? You/we/us pay for this sick time... so desparately needed. We could call it the Department of PTO and tack a $.05 sales tax on the people of the U.S. Then we all share the burden and responsibility of paid sick days... :)
What constitutes being "sick"? How many kids are going to call out with the Irish Flu or because there's waves to surf or because they're just lazy. Will they have to produce a doctor's note /excuse? Do they even have health care to do that? I'm using young people because that's the only time I can remember not having PTO.
Doesn't seem fair to make small business's responsible for this kind of behavior which will be common if allowed.
BT,
I AM a small business owner. I give my people a good wage, good insurance and PTO. Is it killing me? NOPE. Is my business in the pooper? NOPE.
Shwaz,
The people who will call out, are the same people who call out now. Are you implying that the people who get PTO are all hard workers and the people who don't have PTO are all lazy slacker? Please.
(http://www.someecards.com/upload/get_well/it_was_brave.html)
Crys... Great! I am happy for both you and your employees. Then you are WELL aware of other small businesses that are struggling to make payroll and simply survive. Suppose they cannot pay for people to not work. Are they "bad businesses"? Should they be forced to close down and layoff if they cannot provide what you are able to?
Shwaz is NOT implying what you accuse him of. What he was saying is when they do call out now... they do not get paid. Seems fair to me to put some responsibility on the employee. If they want to get paid for being sick they should be required to show a doctors diagnosis. Seems fair to me.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 15, 2009, 07:06:15 AM
Crys... Great! I am happy for both you and your employees. Then you are WELL aware of other small businesses that are struggling to make payroll and simply survive. Suppose they cannot pay for people to not work. Are they "bad businesses"? Should they be forced to close down and layoff if they cannot provide what you are able to?
Shwaz is NOT implying what you accuse him of. What he was saying is when they do call out now... they do not get paid. Seems fair to me to put some responsibility on the employee. If they want to get paid for being sick they should be required to show a doctors diagnosis. Seems fair to me.
BT,
No I'm not saying that those small busness are bad. What I AM saying is that I CHOSE to put the well fair of my workers above some profits. And you know what? It's paying me back. How? When my workers are sick they stay home, they don't come in and spread it to everyone else. If the schools close they don't have to stress about what to do. And last years turn over rate? 0% which means I'm not having to pay to train an a new employee. I asked my workers if they are happy and they are. Reason....Good wage.....good health care....and PTO......Do I own a 2nd BMW? No....am I having to stand in a bread line? No.
And you talk about responsibility, where is the responsibility of the current employers? Again I'll use myself. Do I require a note? No I'm not their momma and they aren't staying home from school. Do some use a sick day to go to the beach? Yes, and they come back from it fully charged and ready to do their job. Sometimes people are "sick" without a physical ailment.
Hmm... it is great to hear of your success. I really am. I would like to hear from others who have a different experience. You and I both know that for every employer with your experience their are many others with a differing experience.
How would we help businesses who cannot afford to do what you are??
QuoteNo I'm not saying that those small busness are bad. What I AM saying is that I CHOSE to put the well fair of my workers above some profits. And you know what? It's paying me back. How? When my workers are sick they stay home, they don't come in and spread it to everyone else. If the schools close they don't have to stress about what to do. And last years turn over rate? 0% which means I'm not having to pay to train an a new employee. I asked my workers if they are happy and they are. Reason....Good wage.....good health care....and PTO......Do I own a 2nd BMW? No....am I having to stand in a bread line? No.
So because your business is profitable enough to support PTO every other business should too? Everyone can do it because
you can and still have 1 BMW. How many business's out there are barely breaking even?
I work for one of the largest companies in Jax and we've had to put a freeze on raises for 2009 / 2010 and also canceled 401-K contributions but that meant more people could keep their jobs.
Maybe the next company on the block can still afford these employee benefit's but does that mean I should expect my company to as well. No. I want this job to be here for the long haul, I've worked too hard to get where I am and wouldn't jeopardize that for a 5% pay raise, 401-k $$$ or paid sick day.
Exactly Shwaz... I'm thinking PTO is a luxury item. Crys chooses to and is able to provide that benefit to her employees. What if her business takes a turn for the worse. Does she still supply those benefits? Keep the benefits and lay off an employee?
No I'll do what's best for my workers. I'll take a pay cut before I lay someone off and have to cut basic benefits. That's the difference between your world and mine. My company isn't growing we're breaking even as well. BUT I don't view basic benefits as an option, they are apart of the total cost of doing business.
And again I'll point out what all of you want to stick your head in the sand for. The rest of the world is able to give it's workers the time off. The rest of the world is able to function with giving the time off. Most American companies don't give pto not because they can't afford it but because it would cut into their bottom line.
PS. I paid for the BMW in cash....it's called saving for your wants.
Shwaz,
Yeah I know all about companies cutting raises and not matching 401k. My sister's company did that too. The CEO also put in about 20 42' LCD's in the executive's office, along with switching all the top sales people's phone's to the new touch blackberry's. They chose to put the executives before the workers.
QuoteYeah I know all about companies cutting raises and not matching 401k. My sister's company did that too. The CEO also put in about 20 42' LCD's in the executive's office, along with switching all the top sales people's phone's to the new touch blackberry's. They chose to put the executives before the workers
:D I may work with your sister!
QuoteNo I'll do what's best for my workers. I'll take a pay cut before I lay someone off and have to cut basic benefits. That's the difference between your world and mine. My company isn't growing we're breaking even as well. BUT I don't view basic benefits as an option, they are apart of the total cost of doing business.
So is your salary is part of the "cost of doing business"? There are plenty of business owner's not making a dime just to keep their companies a float and hold onto their employee's. Is it fair to force mandate on them by way of the federal government to pay for their employee's not to work.
QuoteNo I'll do what's best for my workers. I'll take a pay cut before I lay someone off and have to cut basic benefits. That's the difference between your world and mine.
Your right on there!! Apparently you are able to. See the difference? It is very clear to all the rest of us who cannot afford a pay cut.
You are right... there is a BIG difference between your world and mine. Congratulations!!
Shwaz,
Would you say they are a line of brands? lol.
You make it seem like they would be getting paid vacations. It's paid SICK leave. Don't people have the basic human right to be sick and try and recover without a) coming to work and making everyone sick. b) staying home and not eating?
And don't you have a right as a well person not to have to work next to someone sick.
And I'll remind you AGAIN....and again until we are all blue in the face. Other countries do this. You make it seem like American companies are weak. I'll give you an example. Walmart has offices in other countries. Those offices HAVE to follow the host countries laws in regards to time off. Is Wal-mart on the verge of going under? No. Are those stores paying less? No. Why doesn't Wal-mart offer those same benefits here? Because they don't have too, not because they can't afford too.
I am not talking about Walmart. Everyone has a right to choose where you work. No sick time at Walmart?? move to the next that does. I am refering to the small business owners other than yourself... who cannot afford a pay cut nor pay workers to not work.
Quote from: CrysG on May 15, 2009, 12:57:08 PM
Shwaz,
Yeah I know all about companies cutting raises and not matching 401k. My sister's company did that too. The CEO also put in about 20 42' LCD's in the executive's office, along with switching all the top sales people's phone's to the new touch blackberry's. They chose to put the executives before the workers.
Top sales people are workers. So are CEOs, in spite of the fact that they've been painted as evil by the current culture and politics of the day. They got rewarded for their contributions to the company. I don't see the problem. And please don't tell me that the CEOs did nothing for the company.
Quote
Most American companies don't give pto not because they can't afford it but because it would cut into their bottom line.
So it would. And American companies are in business to make a profit. That's the point of going into business, is it not? Wouldn't your bottom line be affected by being *forced* to offer PTO to your employees as well, as opposed to *offering* it voluntarily? Your bottom line is being directly impacted and in essence mandated by a government-imposed law like that.
That's that much more time that they're not contributing to the company's bottom line, yet are still being paid.
Again I say, it's on the individual companies and corporations to offer their own time off, for both sick and vacation; not the government.
BT,
I'm tired of talk to you about this. You would defend your point no matter how many fact based points I show you. No matter how many small business owners I have e-mail you from around the world. Just like I choose to give PTO other business owners choose not too, not because they can't but because they don't have too.
Quote from: Doctor_K on May 15, 2009, 03:05:30 PM
Quote from: CrysG on May 15, 2009, 12:57:08 PM
Shwaz,
Yeah I know all about companies cutting raises and not matching 401k. My sister's company did that too. The CEO also put in about 20 42' LCD's in the executive's office, along with switching all the top sales people's phone's to the new touch blackberry's. They chose to put the executives before the workers.
Top sales people are workers. So are CEOs, in spite of the fact that they've been painted as evil by the current culture and politics of the day. They got rewarded for their contributions to the company. I don't see the problem. And please don't tell me that the CEOs did nothing for the company.
Quote
Most American companies don't give pto not because they can't afford it but because it would cut into their bottom line.
So it would. And American companies are in business to make a profit. That's the point of going into business, is it not? Wouldn't your bottom line be affected by being *forced* to offer PTO to your employees as well, as opposed to *offering* it voluntarily? Your bottom line is being directly impacted and in essence mandated by a government-imposed law like that.
That's that much more time that they're not contributing to the company's bottom line, yet are still being paid.
Again I say, it's on the individual companies and corporations to offer their own time off, for both sick and vacation; not the government.
The government regulates a million things to companies from where they dump their toxic waste to how many bathrooms you have to put in your building. Where are you to complain about that? Where is your picket sign to get rid of those laws?
QuoteShwaz,
Would you say they are a line of brands? lol.
;)
QuoteYou make it seem like they would be getting paid vacations. It's paid SICK leave. Don't people have the basic human right to be sick and try and recover without a) coming to work and making everyone sick. b) staying home and not eating?
And don't you have a right as a well person not to have to work next to someone sick.
It's like your BMW - you wanted one so you saved and purchased one. I bet it's exhilarating to drive... I actually know first hand it is. But do I think everyone in America deserves this luxury. I do. If they plan and save and earn one. Maybe instead of dragging America's small business's down they (sick worker's) can plan for a rainy day - at least enough to not go hungry the day they're sick.
And that in fact is the root of the argument. You want/desire the heavy hand of governmental intervention to achieve the goal of public health and welfare. You seem to believe the capacity of Americans to pay more and more taxes to the government for various programs is infinite. I do not. In fact the less the better. The recent election proves that for the time being I am in the minority so those of you who believe the gubmint is the answer better push for all you can while you can.
You keep mentioning "other" countries"... I do not want to be France... or Sweden... or Germany. Clearly you think the European model is the way to go... I do not.
I am tired also... :)
Quote from: Shwaz on May 15, 2009, 03:10:57 PM
QuoteShwaz,
Would you say they are a line of brands? lol.
;)
QuoteYou make it seem like they would be getting paid vacations. It's paid SICK leave. Don't people have the basic human right to be sick and try and recover without a) coming to work and making everyone sick. b) staying home and not eating?
And don't you have a right as a well person not to have to work next to someone sick.
It's like your BMW - you wanted one so you saved and purchased one. I bet it's exhilarating to drive... I actually know first hand it is. But do I think everyone in America deserves this luxury. I do. If they plan and save and earn one. Maybe instead of dragging America's small business's down they (sick worker's) can plan for a rainy day - at least enough to not go hungry the day they're sick.
So being healthy is now a luxury?
Maybe not a luxury but it carries a cost... and someone has to pay.
Quote from: Shwaz on May 15, 2009, 03:18:16 PM
Maybe not a luxury but it carries a cost... and someone has to pay.
So it's not a "luxury" but only available for people who can afford to pay?
Now you're turning a PTO sick day discussion into an overall health care discussion.
I'm saying everyone who does not have PTO should plan for inevitable sick day and have a day or week's salary set aside. You'll probably say "but what if they can't afford to save any money" and I will say "what if the companies just breaking even can't afford to pay for employee's not to work"... and then it's a "chicken before the egg" discussion.
Or I could point to the increased productively and overall better general health of my workers to say I'm saving money.
Are hangover's contagious?
CrysG - how much PTO do your employee's get? 3 days? A week? What if they have pink eye and have used up all their sick PTO - should they have to starve? Or do you feel compelled to pay for that time too - wouldn't want to spread pink eye to the other employee's... but don't want them to go hungry either.
If I work for you can I accumulate a whole month of PTO sick days. Are you hiring?
But your low productivity is costly. And once you use them you lose them and like all of you pointed out other companies don't allow for it. So maybe since I do it attracts better employees( the one's who work harder and stay longer.)
So again I'm saving money.
They earn 5 days of sick days to be used on self, with another 5 for family care time(learned about while a worker at Wachovia, which can only be used on family) with 10 days for vaction. Those days are available after 90 days.
As of right now we are not hiring as I have a belief in controlled growth. We could expand but it's not worth it in the end.
But what if they're sick after their 5 days have been used and their vacation PTO has been depleted too?
They go unpaid right? They survive right?
Depends on the case and the ailment. If it's serious then we offer STD and LTD. If it's something short then yes they go unpaid, but at least I give them 5 days. In the 6 years I've owned my company only 5 people have used up there time off. 3 of them were serious and we worked with them. 2 only were unpaid for a day or two.
Quote2 only were unpaid for a day or two.
Did they survive?
Would it be fair to call you a tyrannical profit monger because you really could have afforded to pay them for that day or two?
Are you a humanitarian headed for saint hood because you offer PTO?
If someone else is offering more PTO than you, are they a better humanitarian... with full right to criticize your ethics?
Quote from: Shwaz on May 15, 2009, 04:48:48 PM
Quote2 only were unpaid for a day or two.
Did they survive?
Would it be fair to call you a tyrannical profit monger because you really could have afforded to pay them for that day or two?
Are you a humanitarian headed for saint hood because you offer PTO?
If someone else is offering more PTO than you, are they a better humanitarian... with full right to criticize your ethics?
I'm human. I offer pto and I hardly doubt that you're going to find a company that gives it's workers more time off than I do. If you find them and they want to criticize me I'll take it.
I believe you are fair to your employee's... but there are bigger humanitarians with deeper pocket's that will say you could do more. It has to stop somewhere and mandating that this is something every company HAS to offer isn't fair.
QuoteWHo are all these people demanding very small businesses provide more than they can afford to carry?
CrysG
Small business by any normal sense of the word has and will always be more than 25 employees, so now would be an excellent time to stop putting words in my mouth.
QuoteMy God you make it seem like passing a bill to allow sick people to be sick is going to some how bring down every single small business.
I guess you didn't mention # of employee's. ;)
QuoteFederal rules dont apply until an employer has more than 25 employees in most cases. Im sure our posters already know this.
It is good to know people at businesses less than 25 employees dont get sick.