QuoteTampa Bay can learn from Orlando's failure with its SunRail commuter rail plan
By Robert Trigaux, Times Business Columnist
In Print: Tuesday, May 5, 2009
Orlando's mass transit loss is Tampa Bay's learning opportunity.
State legislators gave a big thumbs down last week to Orlando's SunRail, the proposed $1.2 billion, 61.5-mile commuter rail service intended to operate along CSX railroad tracks.
The Tampa Bay business community went out of its way to throw its support behind distant SunRail, lobbying legislators and Friday running a full page ad in this newspaper â€" complete with more than 50 names of business and civic leaders â€" urging approval of SunRail.
It was not to be. SunRail died for many quotable reasons. "We're billions short in our state budget and in a recession." "Not enough commuters will use it to justify the cost." The deal's complex political history also hurt its support.
But SunRail suffered from basic problems. Out-of-favor CSX was the owner of the rail lines. And an unfortunate provision in the deal left the state exposed and liable in case there was a wreck involving the commuter service.
SunRail's deal to use CSX tracks expires June 30, perhaps killing the deal for good.
All good lessons for Tampa Bay to absorb and avoid in the future as this metro area gets serious about building support for its own mass transit system called TBARTA â€" the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transit Authority.
Tampa Bay's business world got involved, wisely so, in SunRail for good reasons. Central Florida â€" it does not matter if it's Orlando or Tampa Bay â€" is getting too crowded to keep adding lanes to roads and then claiming transportation victory.
Had legislators blessed SunRail, that success could have supplied a map for TBARTA to pursue its own goals.
As economic development officials repeat: The greater Tampa Bay and Orlando areas are converging. Like it or not, we'll need a mass transit system, other than our already dreaded Interstate 4, connecting our two metro area transit systems.
Not to be confused with SunRail or TBARTA is yet another rail system, part of a national, high-speed rail proposal that could link Tampa and Orlando with Miami. Any progress on that system would depend on federal stimulus money.
This is not just about Central Florida. Comparable metro areas, including Charlotte, N.C., Denver and Dallas â€" even smaller cities like Little Rock, Nashville, Austin, Memphis and Salt Lake City â€" all have young mass transit systems. Of the largest 25 metro areas, only Tampa Bay and Detroit do not have rail or rail projects.
Ignore ours long enough and Tampa Bay will be branded as a less-than-competitive business area.
"When do we become endangered here? Through many metrics, we know that transportation is one of the challenges in our community as we grow," says Stuart Rogel, who heads the Tampa Bay Partnership regional economic development group.
"We hear it as the No. 1 issue from our business leaders, and an increasing concern as we talk to people considering business opportunities in the Tampa Bay area."
When the time is right, Tampa Bay's own mass transit plan may face many of the same legislators and issues that kiboshed Orlando's rail system. Here's hoping that area backers will have learned their SunRail lessons well.
Robert Trigaux can be reached at trigaux@sptimes.com or (727) 893-8405.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/economicdevelopment/article998073.ece
My Tips for Next Try At Commuter Rail
By Bill Rufty
Published: Sunday, May 3, 2009 at 9:42 p.m.
Last Modified: Sunday, May 3, 2009 at 9:42 p.m.
In spite of the anger of supporters, an Orlando area commuter rail is not dead just because the Senate would not exempt CSX for liability of injuries it might cause to passengers.
Immediately after Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, worked to defeat the plan in the Senate, ideas surfaced for the next attempt at getting commuter rail.
I'm taking CSX at its word that the commuter rail deal has nothing to do with the freight rail terminal planned for Winter Haven and that it will be built regardless.
Some weeks ago Dockery was called naive by freshman Rep. John Wood, R-Winter Haven, (who obviously doesn't have any bills he wants passed in her committees over the next three years).
Dockery had suggested that new rails on a new corridor could be built if CSX would no longer negotiate for a sale to SunRail.
Some areas could be bought, perhaps. And the state does have the power of eminent domain.
When the High Speed Rail Authority mapped out its first route for the bullet train, plans were to take land by eminent domain along the Greenway in Orlando (now off the table) and to take some land at the Tampa end near Interstate 4.
But there is no absolute that the railroad won't continue to negotiate a new deal.
Here are some suggestions:
Negotiations should be as open as possible and those affected should at least be told. Under the super-secret negotiations ordered by then-Gov. Jeb Bush, some cities affected, like Lakeland and Plant City, didn't even know until the deal was done.
And the Florida Department of Transporation, if still the state's negotiator for this, should behave as the state's negotiator. Department officials should be more professional. In some of the transcripts of e-mails and letters Dockery obtained after filing a public records request, the department's negotiators sound as if they were allied with CSX against the federal Transportation Authority, with a state negotiator calling an federal official "nasty."
The negotiators on both sides should be known to the public.
A provision should forbid or punish any DOT negotiator who, after cutting the deal, works as a "consultant" for the company he or she negotiated with.
And lastly, maybe now is the time to be talking not just about a Deland-to-Poinciana commuter rail, but a Deland-to-Clearwater commuter rail, realizing that some of the trains would be short runs to perhaps just the east side of Polk for Orlando commuters and the west side for Tampa.
http://www.theledger.com/article/20090503/COLUMNISTS/905035023/1134?Title=My-Tips-for-Next-Try-At-Commuter-Rail
Screw all of that Bill Rufty. Plus Dockery's suggestion of buying ROW and building a commuter rail system from scratch is crazier and would be more expensive than the HSR plan down the middle of I-4. We don't need an out-of-the-box solution. The answer is so simple that our leaders continue to overlook it.
Call Amtrak! Amtrak is already operating on the tracks, has a hand full of stimulus cash, wants to upgrade in Florida network and most stations are already in place. A Statewide Corridor service is the answer to this situation.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 05, 2009, 11:36:55 PM
Call Amtrak! Amtrak is already operating on the tracks, has a hand full of stimulus cash, wants to upgrade in Florida network and most stations are already in place. A Statewide Corridor service is the answer to this situation.
YES, YES, YES!
QuoteCall Amtrak! Amtrak is already operating on the tracks, has a hand full of stimulus cash, wants to upgrade in Florida network and most stations are already in place. A Statewide Corridor service is the answer to this situation.
If Tri-rail is on the verge of failure between one of the most populous areas in Florida, what makes you think Orlando-Tampa can work, even now as Amtrak services between both? Sure Amtrak has funds, but it also has lines in other areas to think about, not to mention the millions it will have to spend to upgrade the tracks north of NYC that can only run at 79 MPH due to the ties being old. The acela works and is proven. Why jeapordize that success for a run that is unproven and very expensive, since you still have CSX making Amtrak foot the bill for any accidents to either CSX or Amtrak trains?
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 07, 2009, 12:27:52 AM
QuoteCall Amtrak! Amtrak is already operating on the tracks, has a hand full of stimulus cash, wants to upgrade in Florida network and most stations are already in place. A Statewide Corridor service is the answer to this situation.
If Tri-rail is on the verge of failure between one of the most populous areas in Florida, what makes you think Orlando-Tampa can work, even now as Amtrak services between both?
This is easy. Amtrak does not rely on the cash flow of Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade Counties. Amtrak is already seeing steady growth with the limited unreliable services they have in Florida. A corridor service would make their statewide network more reliable by adding track capacity to existing rail corridors and increasing the number of trains connecting Florida's major cities.
QuoteSure Amtrak has funds, but it also has lines in other areas to think about, not to mention the millions it will have to spend to upgrade the tracks north of NYC that can only run at 79 MPH due to the ties being old. The acela works and is proven. Why jeapordize that success for a run that is unproven and very expensive, since you still have CSX making Amtrak foot the bill for any accidents to either CSX or Amtrak trains?
According to Amtrak, Florida is one of the top markets they want to expand in. They actually believe they can break even running a corridor service here. That alone is a pipe dream when it comes to Tri-Rail, Sunrail or anything JTA can bring to the table. If money is a concern (which it is) and these guys want to expand their services in the 4th largest state (mostly through Federal dollars), why not give it a try?
QuoteAmtrak Proposes Intercity Rail Ideas
By RICH SHOPES, The Tampa Tribune
Published: March 5, 2008
TAMPA - Amtrak officials are pitching a plan for increased train service between Florida cities, including Tampa and Orlando.
The rail agency hopes Florida will embrace intercity rail as roads become clogged and gas prices soar.
Amtrak would like to eventually see trains running back and forth between cities such as Tampa and Orlando, or Jacksonville and Miami.
Rail officials are in the midst of a weeklong swing through the state to meet local officials and tout the advantages of rail.
On Monday, Amtrak officials met with state Reps. Ed Homan, R-Temple Terrace, and Dennis Ross, R-Lakeland, and state Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland. Tuesday, they met in Tampa with Mayor Pam Iorio.
"By Friday, we'll be in Miami," said Ray Lang, senior director of state and local government affairs for the quasigovernmental agency.
Iorio said that she welcomes the idea of increased train service between Tampa and Orlando but has no illusions about the fiscal hardships facing the state.
"I think it is very positive," she said. "I think it makes a lot of sense to have a reliable service ... but this would cost the state money at a time when the state is trying to cut costs."
Amtrak already offers limited service in Tampa. The Silver Meteor and the Silver Star make two stops daily at Union Station in Tampa on a route that extends all the way to New York.
Unlike the long-haul trains, intercity rail is designed to have trains running shorter routes between two or more cities in a state, traditionally with multiple trips each day.
Fourteen states have deals with Amtrak for intercity rail. The largest is California, which pays the rail agency $84 million a year to run 16 daily roundtrips between Oakland and Sacramento and 10 daily roundtrips from Los Angeles to San Diego.
On the low end is Vermont. It pays $4 million for a single daily roundtrip from New York to Montpelier, the state's capital, and to St. Albans near Lake Champlain and the Canadian border.
Amtrak officials stress that no routes or station stops have been decided in Florida, though they hope their tour will drum up support for the idea.
"That would be up to the state to decide. They might want to run from Jacksonville to Miami to start with," Lang said.
Creating a plan and gaining legislative approval could take years.
So far, Lang isn't sure where state officials stand. After meeting with Dockery, Homan and Ross, he said he hoped Amtrak officials might be called by a legislative committee at some point to explain the program.
Dockery said that it might make more sense to partner with Amtrak than to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create a 61-mile commuter line in Central Florida.
The state and CSX are working on a deal estimated at $491 million.
That plan is controversial. Most of the money would go to CSX to pay for upgrades on its existing freight lines. Only $150 million would go toward the commuter line.
Many locals, citing traffic concerns, also have objected to CSX's plan to locate a freight hub in Winter Haven.
"Amtrak can run a passenger rail line without having to buy the line and without the state having to buy the line," Dockery said.
Reporter Rich Shopes can be reached at (813) 259-7633 or rshopes@tampatrib.com.
QuoteIf money is a concern (which it is) and these guys want to expand their services in the 4th largest state (mostly through Federal dollars), why not give it a try?
If amtrak could use the same business model it has with the acela in south florida, it might work, rip up the ties and replace with concrete and build the curves to allow high speed rail, it could work and take people out of their cars. But is now the time for such an experiment? People who don't have a house or a car because they were taken back or who have to worry about putting food on the table because they lost their job and it isn't coming back anytime soon, do you think they would pay the acela fares for riding, now?
There is no way to make high speed work in Tampa/St. Pete to Orlando, until more destinations pop up along the route between the 2 cities. ORD would never go for high speed rail from TPA to Disney, that would be a senate session in Tally I'd love to see.
Quote"That would be up to the state to decide. They might want to run from Jacksonville to Miami to start with," Lang said.
Creating a plan and gaining legislative approval could take years.
Hold your breath if you want to, I don't see this happening for quite some time. Too many other places and routes to fix with stimulus money for Amtrak. Again, gotta fix the line north of NYC to Boston, and work on congestion around Baltimore. I could see Milwaukee to Chicago to Indy as a good candidate.
Did you know that no amtrak trains go in or out of Las Vegas? Not a one. No rail service from LA to Vegas. crazy!
Did you know there is already talk of Amtrak bringing passenger rail service back to the FEC between Jax and Miami? Could it be that a more direct route to Miami will make long distance East Coast travel more attractive?
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/mar/17/treasure-coast-regional-planning-council-request-s/
How about them bringing service back between Jax and New Orleans?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4966.msg76943.html#msg76943
They have more than enough money to invest in several corridors. However, they believe they can actually break even operating a corridor service in Florida, due to the relatively close proximity of the State's major cities. In the end, they are going to invest where they are wanted and have the best opportunity to make as much money as they can. With that said, the Southeast and Florida is one of the most attractive expansion markets for them at this point. This isn't me making this up. It came out of their own representative's mouth.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7312-amtrak12.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7295-amtrak13.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/924/116/
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 07, 2009, 01:00:40 AM
Quote"That would be up to the state to decide. They might want to run from Jacksonville to Miami to start with," Lang said.
Creating a plan and gaining legislative approval could take years.
Hold your breath if you want to, I don't see this happening for quite some time. Too many other places and routes to fix with stimulus money for Amtrak. Again, gotta fix the line north of NYC to Boston, and work on congestion around Baltimore. I could see Milwaukee to Chicago to Indy as a good candidate.
The hold up isn't Amtrak. Its a state that is anti anything that does not have to do with asphalt, cars and trucks. So the ball is in Florida's court. If we don't want it, I'm sure some other state (like Ohio and their 3-C project) will be willing to expand Amtrak services between their major cities.
QuoteOhio '3-C' train plan on track
House votes on Cincinnati-Columbus-Cleveland line
By Jon Craig • jcraig@enquirer.com • March 3, 2009
COLUMBUS - A passenger rail line connecting Cincinnati to Dayton, Columbus, Cleveland and possibly Toledo is part of the $7.5 billion state transportation budget that could pass the Ohio House this week.
The last time passenger trains operated along the so-called "3-C corridor" - Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland - was 1971.
Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory has supported the concept of restoring passenger rail service in the past, according to his communications director, Jason Barron. The mayor could not be reached for comment Monday on the latest proposal.
Statewide passenger rail service would complement a separate local proposal by the mayor to resurrect city streetcars using $69 million in federal stimulus money. Cincinnati proposes a streetcar system from Downtown to Uptown, the area around the University of Cincinnati and several hospitals, at a total estimated cost of $185 million.
The city also asked Gov. Ted Strickland's office for $10 million in federal stimulus money to build a passenger rail station for the proposed Amtrak line between Cincinnati, Columbus and Cleveland. Union Terminal could not accommodate more than one train staying overnight, city architect Michael Moore says, so adding Union Terminal "holding tracks" or even a new rail station might be needed. The project would put 345 people to work, the city's application says.
Hamilton County Commissioner Todd Portune said Friday that officials in Cincinnati are pushing for the high-speed rail part of the project to be completed all at once instead of in two phases. Portune said there is concern that if the Columbus to Cleveland stretch is reactivated first, before the Columbus to Cincinnati line, then it is making residents of Southwest Ohio "second-class citizens."
Slower passenger trains that move as fast as 79 miles per hour could use existing freight lines with an eventual goal of upgrading to high-speed trains that travel 110 mph, according to Ohio Rail Development Commission officials.
The exact cost and time frame is uncertain until Amtrak completes a study of possible ridership and fare revenue by late summer, they said. The most likely source of funding is $9 million included in the federal economic stimulus package. The bill signed by President Obama includes $8 billion nationally for high-speed passenger rail and streetcars nationwide.
Tracks owned by the CSX Transportation Corp. between Cleveland and Columbus are among the busiest on the train company's freight network, which links Chicago to New York and New England.
Ohio House Republicans expressed concerns in committee last week about the lack of spending details in the plan to restore passenger trains on the "3-C Corridor."
State legislators must pass the transportation budget bill by March 31. It takes effect July 1.
The deadline for the Ohio Department of Transportation to submit a rail plan is April 18.
The Ohio Rail Development Commission, an independent branch of ODOT, has long proposed extending passenger service between Cleveland and Cincinnati for its so-called "Ohio Hub," a rail project linking Ohio to existing rail lines in Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Pennsylvania and Canada.
Rail Development Commission spokesman Stu Nicholson said there are 258 miles of track between Cincinnati and Cleveland and that other communities have talked about adding rail "spurs" to the main 3-C passenger line.
It has been 27 years since Ohio voters were asked to support high-speed rail. In 1982, voters rejected a penny increase in the state sales tax to build a system linking 13 cities.
And in 1975, voters turned down a constitutional amendment, by a 65 to 35 percent, to permit the state to give or loan credit to assist federal corporations and state agencies for reorganization of rail systems.
A 2004 study by Transportation Economics & Management Systems Inc. estimated that one-way rail fares between Cincinnati and Columbus would average $50.
It would cost $95 one-way between Cincinnati and Cleveland, according to the study. Frequent rail users, students, senior citizens and weekend travelers would likely be offered lower fares.
Nicholson said a 2007 study estimated one-way fares between Cincinnati and Columbus could be as low as $25, and $70 to $75 for passengers traveling to or from Cleveland.
More changes in the bill, which includes budgets of ODOT, the Department of Public Safety and the state Highway Patrol, could be made in the House Finance Committee this week, before votes by the full House and Senate.
Staff writers Malia Rulon and Jane Prendergast and the Associated Press contributed.
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090303/NEWS01/903030340
QuoteIt came out of their own representative's mouth.
Lake - Are you trying out your pitch for our legislature in Tally on me? I don't buy it, especially when Amtrak is selling it and they have 1 train, the acela, that does very well and is respected for its service and reliability. Maybe they can pull off a coup in south florida, but it remains to be seen if the dollars will be there by the time, the state gets its act in gear with a state-wide plan for passenger rail.
It looks pathetic to Amtrak when the peeps in Tally can't even pass the rail deal that was built with Orlando and CSX in mind. That plans pretty weak in Washington. Again, don't hold your breath for anthing soon.
If building a rail system created thousands of jobs, that would be one thing, but nothing provided by Amtrak shows growth of one thing our state needs, jobs. Jobs=revenue and the state could use that right now.
I do not see Florida as a strong partner, they could be, but they are just too disorganized right now, as are most states with other issues to take care of, such as well, jobs and budget deficits.
Ohio - have at it, they have a need for jobs more desperately than in Florida, and they would probably give away the futures of kids unborn to get more jobs. Floridians don't need to sacrifice our future for something that is unproven and again, has no strong leadership in the Florida government.
QuoteIt has been 27 years since Ohio voters were asked to support high-speed rail. In 1982, voters rejected a penny increase in the state sales tax to build a system linking 13 cities.
Again, don't hold your breath on this either. I hear Montana and Wyoming are running a surplus in their governments. Perhaps they will be better partners....of course there aren't enough people there, but hey, we are looking for STRONG partners right now.
Florida is not a strong rail partner, better get in line behind these states:
State governments have partially filled the breach left by reductions in Federal aid to Amtrak. Several states have entered into operating partnerships with Amtrak, notably California, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan, Oregon, Missouri, Washington, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Vermont, Maine, and New York, as well as the Canadian province of British Columbia, which provides some of the resources for the operation of the Cascades route.
It sounds like you're trying to come up with every excuse in the book not to invest in alternative transit. Even when the money comes from sources that won't require local residents to pay anything more than what they are already dishing out to implement. If you believe that the investment in commuter rail and HSR is too much, an Amtrak upgrade should be right down your fiscal alley.
To see if corridor services spur jobs or not, just check out what the Capital Corridor has done for California.
Images speak a 1,000 words: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/942/116/
Just like when you repave a road, someone has to develop the plans, design stations/platforms, provide building materials and the labor to construct the system. Unlike roads, when construction is completed, someone has to engineer the trains, work the ticket booths, provide security, keep the trains stocked with goods and maintain the rolling stock. Furthermore, considering this is a rail powerhouse, many of the companies that would provide these services statewide are based right here in Jacksonville. Mtraininjax, if that isn't job creation then I don't know what is.
QuoteIt sounds like you're trying to come up with every excuse in the book not to invest in alternative transit.
Lake - You said Florida was a strong partner. That may be, but there are MUCH stronger partners that help amtrak with its funds. Florida is not one of them.
Exploration and transportation of natural resources, which transportation uses to the tune of 2/3 of all natural resources used in the US, will create far more jobs than rail transportation, and what's more its needed now, whereas tri-rail is an example of how Floridians are shying away from such expensive propositions. Tuscon and its 297 million Light Rail system that follows 3.2 miles. That is a hard pill for most Floridians when they just lost their job, their cars, their houses, their lifestyle.
fine...how does $300 miilion for 3-4 miles of SR 9B sound....or how about $400+ million for a 1.5 mile connection between I-4 and the X-Town Expwy. in Tampa?
Mtraininjax, forgive me I'm kind of confused. Enhancing existing rail corridors statewide with better track capacity also helps the transportation of natural resources and manufactured goods. Partnering with Amtrak will allow the State to take advantage of federal transportation dollars not available to roads and other needs. Anyway, you are right when it comes to Florida having to step up to the plate. As said earlier, Amtrak wants to expand here. Its going to be up to FDOT to decide if they want to go this route.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 07, 2009, 10:17:47 AM
Mtraininjax, forgive me I'm kind of confused. Enhancing existing rail corridors statewide with better track capacity also helps the transportation of natural resources and manufactured goods. Partnering with Amtrak will allow the State to take advantage of federal transportation dollars not available to roads and other needs. Anyway, you are right when it comes to Florida having to step up to the plate. As said earlier, Amtrak wants to expand here. Its going to be up to FDOT to decide if they want to go this route.
It would help if we all write letters to Stephanie Kopelousos.
Faye, can you add Stephanie Kopelousos' contact information to this thread?
Quote from: mtraininjax on May 07, 2009, 01:31:10 AM
QuoteIt came out of their own representative's mouth.
Lake - Are you trying out your pitch for our legislature in Tally on me? I don't buy it, especially when Amtrak is selling it and they have 1 train, the acela, that does very well and is respected for its service and reliability.
It looks pathetic to Amtrak when the peeps in Tally can't even pass the rail deal that was built with Orlando and CSX in mind. That plans pretty weak in Washington. Again, don't hold your breath for anthing soon.
Not quite accurate MTrain...
Other than Auto Train, the Palmetto leads all trains in cost recovery, with a 96% ratio. This ratio correctly excludes allocated system costs (such as corporate overhead) and depreciation.
Auto Train has a 121% ratio (that translates to profit), followed by the
Empire Builder at 76%, and the
Southwest Chief at 74%.
the lowest long distance train ratios are the Cardinal at 52%,
and the Sunset Limited at 33%.
The common factor of the two lowest ratios is both trains are tri-weekly trains. The Empire Builder contributes over $5,000 per coach per day of revenue, and the Sunset Limited coach daily revenue is $1,990; again a victim of tri-weekly service.
The operating ratio on I-795 (9-B) will be exactly what it is on Beach Blvd, A1A, Main St, Roosevelt, Philips highway, Normandy or Dunn Avenues. ZERO. Not a penny of cost recovery.
I know you've said you support a train to Atlanta, and the new "Sunset" will probably be the new "Gulf Wind" as I predicted.
Y'all may be surprised to know the North East Corridor trains DO NOT do as well in cost recovery as has been widely published over the years. In fact they are out-performed by many long distance routes, depending on the accounting method used. OCKLAWAHA
I would like to see a link to those numbers, please.