The legislature and Governor Crist continue to dismantle education in Florida while advocating further property tax cuts and promising a world class education system. Poppycock! :-[
Add financial fiasco's in higher education from underpriced prepaid tuition plans, overly generous Bright Futures grants, restrictions on raising below market tuition, reduced endowments, the State reneging on timely matching of donations, and mandated programs.
Not enough? Add being 49th or 50th among U.S. states in funding education even before the new and severe recent cutbacks in primary and secondary education.
We have set up ourselves for a generation of undereducated kids to compete in an ever more competitive global economy. What will this portend for our future economy and quality of life? Do our elected officials care? Or, do they just want to win the next election? Will the voters finally revolt?Quote
Florida Times Union
State colleges 'petrified’ at House budget plan
Massive program eliminations, faculty layoffs and branch closures predicted
* By Brandon Larrabee, Adam Aasen
* Story updated at 6:27 AM on Thursday, Apr. 23, 2009
The future of Florida higher education has turned into a bare-knuckle brawl for money.
State universities are facing two very different state budget scenarios: The House wants to cut funding about 8 percent; the Senate about 2 percent.
If the House version prevails, University of North Florida President John Delaney said, “it’s really close to a dismantling of the higher education budget.†Statewide, it could mean massive program eliminations, faculty layoffs and closures of branch campuses, he said.
And although it looked like the two chambers were at a stalemate, it now appears that Senate leaders might be willing to make more severe cuts.
Delaney and other university presidents went on full attack this week to make sure that doesn’t happen. All 11 of them will be in Tallahassee today to protest the House’s budget cuts.
“Panic might be the right word,†Delaney said. “We’re on the edge of the cliff.â€
The panic is somewhat new. Back in January and again in March, Delaney said a single-digit decrease would be optimistic because he feared a 10 to 15 percent cut. Despite his strong rhetoric, Delaney wouldn’t say this budget scenario is worse than what was expected.
The House and Senate versions come down to a philosophical difference: saving versus spending.
The Senate’s budget uses revenue from Indian gaming and a cigarette tax to fend off cuts that Delaney said would be “devastating.â€
The House would rather use that money to build up the state’s reserves because federal stimulus money will run out in two years, leaving Florida in the same budget predicament. Senate leaders believe the economy could improve in that time.
If the House version passes, Delaney said UNF will reduce classes. He said it’s difficult to bring back academic programs once they’re cut, even if the economy improves.
There probably wouldn’t be layoffs, Delaney said, although about three dozen visiting faculty might not have their contracts renewed.
Florida State University might take the most drastic actions if the House budget prevails. FSU released a list of programs that would be eliminated: oceanography, anthropology, geological sciences, geography and German to name a few. FSU’s Panama City campus also might be closed.
The University of Florida would cut pay across the board by 5 percent, furlough all employees for three weeks and close several departments and programs, such as the Documentary Institute and the athletic training program.
At the University of Central Florida, hundreds of staff and faculty would lose their jobs.
Florida Community College at Jacksonville would see 17.3 percent in cuts under the House version, which would mean staff layoffs, President Steve Wallace said. The Senate version only cuts 2.3 percent.
Wallace said he’s frustrated because he believes FCCJ can’t afford any more cuts.
“Now is the time in our view to draw the line,†Wallace said. “We can’t reduce funds for higher education any further. We have to find revenue to cover these costs.â€
Senate leaders were quick on Tuesday to dismiss deeper cuts to higher education, which House leaders said were necessary to keep from blowing a hole in future budgets when federal stimulus funds run out.
“We believe it’s fiscally responsible to address that today and not kick the can and force the decision to be made in the future,†said House Majority Leader Adam Hasner, R-Delray Beach.
By Wednesday, though, even though the upper chamber said it wasn’t conceding, the tone had softened. Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach, said he was open to discussing cuts.
Sen. Jim King, a Jacksonville Republican who sits on the higher education funding committee, suggested there was some room for negotiation â€" but only so far.
“I would hate like heck to see deeper cuts,†he said. “But I’m also a realist. … Some of the cuts if made that they’re talking about would set some of our universities and some of our community colleges back eight to 10 years.â€
See: http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2009-04-23/story/state_colleges_petrified%E2%80%99_at_house_budget_plan
You answered your own question, the legislators are only thinking of the next election, and they think that cutting taxes is the way to do that. We are already, as you said 49th or 50th in the US for funding education. Apparently, we are now striving to spend less on education than Third World countries.
Maybe it is a long term strategy. If they keep the populace uneducated, then it will be easier for the sons and daughters of the current politicians to reach and abuse positions of power when it is their turn.
But do not... under any circumstances... lease oil drilling right worth billions... ::)
It makes no sense to risk the future to make up for a shortfall today.
So, think about it....leasing oil drilling rights 3 miles off-shore would have a disastrous impact on tourism (much less the environment)...and since Florida's main revenue stream is the sales tax, this could end up being a net loss...and would further burden Florida residents who would have to pick up an even bigger share of the state budget.
Maybe its time that everyone make some really tough decisions....like repealing many of the sales tax exemptions...like the one for skyboxes....and, if need be, look at other tax ioncreases.
And you can't get around some "no tax increase" pledge by claiming that fee increases (like our vehicle registration which the House wants to double) aren't the same thing!
Quoteleasing oil drilling rights 3 miles off-shore would have a disastrous impact on tourism
Why?
Quotecommunity colleges back eight to 10 years
They why the f do it? I can't claim to understand all the complexities of the state budget system, but surely they can figure out a way to keep Florida solvent without despoiling our environment, chasing off tourists, or turning the entire state into a Vegas strip.
Now they really look stupid for cutting property taxes. I want a tax cut as much as the next guy, but I think when times are good politicians are to hasty to cut taxes to much for political gain.
Maybe they should have a giant bake sale!
Quoteoverly generous Bright Futures grants
Yeah... lets cut a legitimate
merit based scholarship. >:(
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 24, 2009, 08:14:15 AM
Quoteleasing oil drilling rights 3 miles off-shore would have a disastrous impact on tourism
Why?
because lots of folks would not like the unsightly view of an oil derrick just off-shore...not to mention the hesitation about getting in the water!
Possibly... but that is a far cry from a tourism disaster.
BT -- merit based scholarships are discrimination.
:D In addition I keep hearing about how low our high school grad rate is... yet here is the best and fairest motivator of all...
Attain a high gpa and graduate and if you maintain that gpa in college we help pay for your education.
Merit... based... what a freeking concept. ::)
Quote from: Deuce on April 24, 2009, 10:06:08 AM
Quotecommunity colleges back eight to 10 years
Now they really look stupid for cutting property taxes. I want a tax cut as much as the next guy, but I think when times are good politicians are to hasty to cut taxes to much for political gain.
This is a huge part of the problem and now Crist and his cronies want to aggravate it further by proposing MORE property tax cuts. At the same time, these political hacks say they champion world class education. All these crazy "deals" with the Seminole casinos, oil drilling, tapping reserve funds, redirecting stimulus and lottery funds, etc. are all driven by this mostly self inflicted budget crisis. Who in their right mind would think a rainy day would never arrive? And what did Jeb Bush, Crist, and their legislature buddies do - they gave away any surpluses from the good times by cutting taxes instead of prudently putting the money in a savings account like the rest of us are supposed to do. Now, times are tough, and they not only don't have the much needed revenue, they have little to no savings to draw down. Its fiscal IRRESPONSILITY! We should vote them all out and start over with people who do the RIGHT thing, not the politically expedient action.
What's more, when they cut the property taxes at the STATE level, they took control from the LOCAL level. How do Republicans explain breaking their own platform?
P.S. A recent poll said a substantial majority of Floridians would rather pay higher taxes than cut essentials such as education. How long will it take us to reprogram Tallahassee?
"How do Republicans explain breaking their own platform"
Because most Republicans are RINOs and slaves to corporate interests.
sjr, I completely agree with your statements. I am so offended by our Governor saying not to worry because we will have casino revenues. What about all those people who donated to trust funds for education or affordable housing thinking they were doing some good only to see the legislature wipe out that money. Where's the trust?
This state will never attract new industry and technology unless we have the educated residents able to be the workforce of the future. Our failing educational system is best exemplified by these legislators elected by naive and deficient voters.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 24, 2009, 11:41:44 AM
:D In addition I keep hearing about how low our high school grad rate is... yet here is the best and fairest motivator of all...
Attain a high gpa and graduate and if you maintain that gpa in college we help pay for your education.
Merit... based... what a freeking concept. ::)
One should be motivated to get a great education because it furthers our abilitiy to succeed and because it enriches our life. Colleges are modeled on charging tuition, not paying you to come there, because they offer you something of great value. Scholarships are premised on assuring equal access and diversity of the student body that can't be achieved by mere economic forces alone.
From what I have read, the majority of Bright Futures money goes to those who could afford to pay some or all of their tuition. This is because higher income families are more likely to produce better educated students. So, Bright Futures effectively has become mostly a "give away" to higher income residents.
The other point is that with Bright Futures, so many kids want to go to state universities for "free" that many of them can't get in anymore. So, the good news is you get a "free education" and the bad news is we don't have room for you and, if we did, due to budget cutbacks in part over Bright Futures, we can't give you the highest quality education.
The meritocracy occurs because, regardless of money or connections, you have to meet the qualitative requirements of the college to be accepted - at least in theory!
What can be more equal than merit based? Isnt this what we strive for? Equal pay for equal work right?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 24, 2009, 01:02:14 PM
What can be more equal than merit based? Isnt this what we strive for? Equal pay for equal work right?
Bridge, you missed my point entirely. This isn't a job you get paid to do, its an opportunity and a service you pay for! Creating "equal opportunity for equal work" is what scholarships should be about. As such, they should generally be reserved for appropriately qualified students who lack only one thing, money. The only other purpose, as I stated, is to attract students to create a diverse campus that might not be achieved based on economic forces alone. Everyone having equal merit, subject to space availability and student body diversity (academic and extracurricular interests, demographics, etc.) goals, will have an opportunity for the same education. QED.
BT, you forget, when dealing with the left, "merit" is defined as "whoever we deem worthy" rather than "whoever earned it."
QuoteBridge, you missed my point entirely.
Au contraire... I GET your point. I KNOW what your point is... I am entirely clear on the POINT.
QuoteAs such, they should generally be reserved for appropriately qualified students who lack only one thing, money.
As I thought... way too many things to say here... but would only get labeled a myriad names. I will let your points speak for themselves... ::)
QuoteFrom what I have read, the majority of Bright Futures money goes to those who could afford to pay some or all of their tuition. This is because higher income families are more likely to produce better educated students.
That's an interesting analysis and something tells me that data would bear that out to a degree. I came from an environment where my family could afford to send me to college. My parents would have forbidden me to have any social life outside of school if they knew I could go to college for free.
QuoteAnd what did Jeb Bush, Crist, and their legislature buddies do - they gave away any surpluses from the good times by cutting taxes instead of prudently putting the money in a savings account like the rest of us are supposed to do.
Must run in the family, since his brother did the same with the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 and that was before 9/11 and the recession. I've made a lot more money as a result but I was incredulous at the fact that they were going to give away the surplus instead of shoring up government programs like Social Security or just saving it for when times were bad.
http://www.floridastudentfinancialaid.org/ssfad/bf/
QuoteIn 1997, the Florida Legislature created the Florida Bright Futures Scholarship Program. This Florida Lottery-funded scholarship rewards students for their academic achievements during high school by providing funding for them to pursue postsecondary educational and career goals in Florida.
Here is the stats page...
http://www.floridastudentfinancialaid.org/ssfad/bf/bffacts.htm
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 24, 2009, 01:56:01 PM
QuoteBridge, you missed my point entirely.
Au contraire... I GET your point. I KNOW what your point is... I am entirely clear on the POINT.
QuoteAs such, they should generally be reserved for appropriately qualified students who lack only one thing, money.
As I thought... way too many things to say here... but would only get labeled a myriad names. I will let your points speak for themselves... ::)
Bridge, if you think I am pushing some form of welfare, that is not my point. In fact, I am a fiscal Conservative. What this leads me too is the concept of WISELY investing in our society where we get a great return on investment, just as in the private sector. Nowhere is this more true than with education. This country was built on open access by all to education and offering scholarships to those with financial need (again, keeping in mind they are otherwise qualified!) is no different than the oceanfront home owner paying more taxes than the low income resident and both sending their kids to the same schools. Failure of our society to "raise all boats" through prudent investment is a detriment to all of us, regardless of our income or other status. Societies with the widest gaps between the "haves" and "have-nots" are shown to be far less stable and strong over time.
I suspect most of us posting on this board have benefitted from either ourselves or one of our ancestors getting "a helping hand" to advance themselves. One way to honor this blessing is to share some of our blessings with others who wish to follow in our footsteps as those before us did for us.
While I applaud the fiscal conservatism I am a bit flummoxed by the social liberalism. The best way to
Quote"raise all boats"
is to use the same method of raising them.
The great thing about bright futures is the student must keep his grades up the through entire scholarship. The rich kids keep going regardless of grades... same with the poor. Bright Futures kids must earn it every semester... poor, middle, rich, black, white, hispanic, Eskimo.
Get good grades and your foot is in the door, keep good grades and some of your tuition is paid.
Merit... it is life.
Bridge, thanks for the link. The chart below from it shows the 5 fold growth in dollars of the program in just 11 years! Therein, lies a big problem. $2.3 billion in just that period and now nearly $380 million per year. Even the legislature has recognized they have created a financial monster here and are trying to get the genie back in the bottle.
QuoteBright Futures Initially Eligible and Renewing Disbursed Students - 1997 to 2008
Academic Year/Initially Eligible Disbursed Students/Renewing Disbursed Students/Total Disbursed Students/Total Disbursements
1997-98 23,710 18,609 42,319 $69,566,969
1998-99 25,343 30,722 56,065 $93,332,570
1999-00 28,529 42,476 71,005 $131,850,932
2000-01 32,255 54,801 87,056 $164,769,347
2001-02 33,050 65,244 98,294 $174,914,917
2002-03 36,834 73,034 109,868 $202,204,806
2003-04 39,921 80,716 120,637 $235,188,754
2004-05 42,994 87,603 130,597 $268,944,369
2005-06 44,960 95,089 140,049 $306,335,218
2006-07 47,216 101,415 148,631 $347,014,439
2007-08 50,499 108,671 159,170 $379,874,911
Total 405,311 758,380 1,163,691 $2,373,997,232
Total Number of Awards Since Inception 1,163,691
Total Disbursements Since Inception $2,373,997,232
No doubt... we most definitely kill the most successful college scholarship in history. Apparently the lottery pays for it so it doesn't even come out of the budget... unless of course you want to raid the budget for more... um...er politically correct beneficiary.
Lord knows we don't want motivated students with good grades in our universities, colleges, and community colleges...
The Bright Futures program is terrific...the program has resulted in higher GPAs among Florida students....which mean the standards should be adjusted.....right now the program is almost too easy
It is an outstanding program... transparent and merit based.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 24, 2009, 08:11:05 PM
The Bright Futures program is terrific...the program has resulted in higher GPAs among Florida students....which mean the standards should be adjusted.....right now the program is almost too easy
Grade inflation so the teacher's pets can get a free education? Never! ;)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 24, 2009, 06:48:34 PM
No doubt... we most definitely kill the most successful college scholarship in history. Apparently the lottery pays for it so it doesn't even come out of the budget... unless of course you want to raid the budget for more... um...er politically correct beneficiary.
Lord knows we don't want motivated students with good grades in our universities, colleges, and community colleges...
The lottery was supposed to go straight to funding extra programs for education, not paying for Bright Futures. Paying Bright Futures means the lottery is just supplanting revenue that schools would have received from tuition anyway. Another bait and switch boner by the Legislature. $2.3 billion sucked out of education funding. Thanks for making the point, Bridge!
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 24, 2009, 06:48:34 PM
Lord knows we don't want motivated students with good grades in our universities, colleges, and community colleges...
It's not if they go, it's who pays for it. Let's not confuse the issues.
There is another scenario that no one has brought up. I pushed my kids to do well in school so they could get the bright futures scholarship and save me some money. They did so well that two of the three recieved scholarships to attend private universities out of state and didn't need the state money.
Grade inflation so the teacher's pets can get a free education? Never! ;)
This wouldn't matter as the students have to get high SAT or ACT scores also. You might get all A's but you won't get the scholarship without the high test scores. I believe most kids getting Bright Futures only qualify for the 75% tuition reward.
What kind of education do you expect to get for "free"? Less and less of one in Florida:QuoteTallahassee Democrat Newspaper:
Brains drained
Legislators show scorn for universities
The antipathy that House Republicans show toward Florida's state universities is breathtaking.
Their plan quite simply forces our public universities to undermine even star-studded and economy-enriching programs ranging from oceanography â€" important in a state surrounded on three sides by water â€" to hospitality management â€" notice we're a major tourism state.
As the machinations in budget-writing continued this week, it appears that even the Senate â€" which has shown the most fiscal maturity and farsightedness to date â€" stands ready to bow to House leaders and their eye-on-the-next-election starvation diet.
Many members may be smart and quick with the glib remark, but as a group, House leadership is showing itself to be not deeply thoughtful â€" as one despairing observer put it, "not deeply rooted in ideas."
Board of Governors Chairman Sheila McDevitt said Thursday that she's pleased to see the Legislature approved tuition flexibility for the universities, but adds "tuition helps, but it will be four years before you see much effect."
Likewise, federal stimulus dollars, perhaps $150 million systemwide that is expected to come Florida's way, lasts just two years. And that isn't anywhere near up to the task of stopping the hemorrhaging of professors and, accordingly, the academic reputation that draws both students and research grant money that's so vital.
Given that Florida continues to have not only an expensive and easygoing Bright Futures program but also the lowest tuition rates in the nation, even slowly bringing tuition up to a national average won't begin to fund this economic engine called higher education.
"We're appreciative of the stimulus money," Ms. McDevitt added, "but you still have to look toward a predictable source of revenue, and that's General Revenue." Right now the House sets GR at 26.4 percent less than it was last year â€" and that's on top of reductions the previous two years.
By comparison, the Senate's 8.6-percent cut in GR over last year seems almost benign. And yet Senate President Jeff Atwater on Wednesday was cozying up to the House Speaker Larry Cretul, giving every indication the Senate was ready to kick universities under the bus.
Presidents of the state's universities stood as one on Thursday, expressing their frantic dismay over what's happening to their budgets. Florida A&M University at last got the memo that it is also in grave trouble if an expected $22 million is slashed from its budget. Florida State and the University of Florida have, on the other hand, been thundering through the halls of the Capitol for weeks, trying to get the attention of the mighty. But so far, to little avail.
As one distinguished professor said, "The future of the state is in energetic young people with ideas. They're the basic building blocks of the future, but they aren't going to stick around Florida; they're going to go."
One has to wonder where the majority of Florida legislators got their education. The majority must have found economics, history and logic way over their heads â€" while doing very well indeed in theater of the absurd.
http://www.tallahassee.com/article/20090424/OPINION05/904240318/1006/OPINION
What if students from out of state (and foreign as well) paid the full unsubsidized cost of the education they get at our state colleges and universities? Students from several states can go to college cheaper here paying the out of state tuition than they can paying in-state tuition in their home state.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on April 24, 2009, 09:16:23 PM
What if students from out of state (and foreign as well) paid the full unsubsidized cost of the education they get at our state colleges and universities? Students from several states can go to college cheaper here paying the out of state tuition than they can paying in-state tuition in their home state.
That likely already happens as much as will be tolerated already. Politically, they can only allocate so many spaces for out of staters. Florida taxpayers expect most slots to be reserved for their sons and daughters, especially since the cutbacks have resulted in massive refusals of applicants that likely would have had a spot in better times. Also, keep in mind that even full tuition never pays the full costs of education at a college. It is always subsidized by annual giving, state funding, research grant income, endowment income, ancillary income, etc. So, we really aren't "making money" when we admit full paying students from out of state (or in-state) unless they are replacing spots taken by scholarship students. I don't see that happening too much more than the status quo for the reasons stated.
out-of-state students already pay the "full" cost...that's why their tution is almost 3 times the cost that in-state students pay!
As illustrated in stjr's post above, full tuition is not the full unsubsidized cost. It is also often less than they would pay if they went to a state school in their home state. Florida taxpayers should not be helping out of state students take spots in our higher ed system that Florida students want.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 24, 2009, 10:47:54 PM
out-of-state students already pay the "full" cost...that's why their tution is almost 3 times the cost that in-state students pay!
Tufsu, just because out of staters pay multiple times in-state doesn't mean they pay full tuition. The only reason there is such a large gap is because in-staters pay ridiculously low tuition to begin with - considered by many to be among the lowest in the country for state higher education. Another reason our universities are in big financial trouble. And, the governor and legislature are holding them back here as well. It's financial suicide!
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on April 24, 2009, 11:28:02 PM
Florida taxpayers should not be helping out of state students take spots in our higher ed system that Florida students want.
Urban, the reason Florida universities will always covet some out of staters (and international students) is because it "enriches" their student body experience to have some geographic and ethnic diversity and because it gives them prestige and cachet as "national"/"international" institutions.
If we want more Florida students admitted, we have to give the universities and community colleges a much stronger financial framework to work with. That's the point I am trying to make with this thread.Don't forget, the feeders to our universities are our primary and secondary schools. They are suffering at least as much as the universities and community colleges.
We don't need it, the damn system doesn't make a profit. Until they can find a way to make these schools profitable we should close them down, lay off the teachers, and scrap the buildings.
Then we can work on getting rid of the City Parks, Police, Fire, Library etc... We'll keep NOTHING that doesn't make a buck. $5.00 a mile tolls on the roads to, you use it, you pay.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 25, 2009, 10:04:45 AM
We don't need it, the damn system doesn't make a profit. Until they can find a way to make these schools profitable we should close them down, lay off the teachers, and scrap the buildings.
Then we can work on getting rid of the City Parks, Police, Fire, Library etc... We'll keep NOTHING that doesn't make a buck. $5.00 a mile tolls on the roads to, you use it, you pay.
OCKLAWAHA
Or, looked at another way, using a merit based system only, we should all get free food (we all deserve to eat), free housing (everyone needs a place to live), free cars (isn't it in our constitution that everyone is entitled to a car!), free health care (we all are entitled to plastic surgery to make ourselves even better looking), and free vacations (what fun is life without a few of these). Why should only the financially disadvantaged get assistance - with our new merit system, let's give these things to all desrving souls. Don't worry if it bankrupts the State - Charlie Crist will just wish it away! What a wonderful world we live in! :D
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on April 24, 2009, 11:28:02 PM
As illustrated in stjr's post above, full tuition is not the full unsubsidized cost. It is also often less than they would pay if they went to a state school in their home state. Florida taxpayers should not be helping out of state students take spots in our higher ed system that Florida students want.
that's why I used "full"...nonetheless, I completely disagree...I happen to be one of those out-of-state folks who came here for grad. school....and have stayed for 13 years since.
Often, bringing in outstanding students from out-of-state actually earns a school (and the state) more revenue than in-state students would (think dorms for example)....and clearly they add to a diverse well-rounded student body!
QuoteThe Bright Futures program is terrific...the program has resulted in higher GPAs among Florida students....which mean the standards should be adjusted.....right now the program is almost too easy
Now that seems like a simple change to reduce program cost and push our students to strive ever higher, after all if you're going to get a free ride to college it ought not to be easy.