We were recently astounded to learn that our alleged metropolitan planning organization is actively supporting the largest sprawl mechanism devised in this city since the introduction of the automobile itself.
The outerbeltway system. A road project, which if built, will create unprecedent and completely unstustainable avenues of development into the farthest reaching areas of the surrounding country side.
A powerful disincentive to the bankruptcy causing effects of urban sprawl is the lack of highways giving developers access to remote areas.
Jacksonville, as a city/county government and one of the largest land areas in the contiguous states is already reeling with the disastrous economic effects of poorly planned, liberally implemented sprawl. We literally cannot afford basic services equally for all of our residents.
When asked why these clowns were actually supporting the development of the outer beltway (and all of its attendent corruption) We were told straight out that it was all political.
What the hell good is a planning agency if its all going to be political anyways?
Exactly.
Wasn't the big selling point of the partial loop - connecting I-10 to I -95 South along the SW part of the city - to relieve traffic through town?
But before it has been built, the housing sprang up very quickly to take advantage of it.
keep in mind that the MPO is a regional body, representing Duval, Nassau, Clay, and St. Johns counties....a more legitimate question would be why the Duval representatives on the MPO board endorse the outer beltway
You answered most of the question already Stephen. Politics. St. Johns and Clay have always bemoaned their status as burbs of the big city. Clay feels they are second class until the can say an interstate runs through their 'hood. Don't ask me why, that's just the way they feel. I suspect they all think more roads means less congestion when decades of road building just prove the exact opposite.
The rest of the answer lies in that other great word associated with road building: Greed. Yep, all those land owners and developers think it will bring more pay dirt. There is no end to their desires until its all paved over. But, that's someone (us?) else's problem.
The last word: Tit for tat. If Jax wants "regional" support for its projects, it has to throw bones to these guys. If it can be built "privately", Jax throws the bone without redirecting regional funds (at least for now) to these counties. Of course, when they see all the new congestion created from building the outer beltway, they will all be back to the trough for more dollars to pay to build and/or expand its feeder roads.
Why don't they work together on regional rail mass transit instead? Go ask them. They probably won't give the honest answer. But, I suspect, "railroaders" are not major contributors to political campaigns.
Quote from: stephendare on April 21, 2009, 11:51:27 AM
met·ro·pol·i·tan (mtr-pl-tn)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a major city: crowded metropolitan streets; a metropolitan newspaper.
b. Of or constituting a large city or urbanized area, including adjacent suburbs and towns: the Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area; a metropolitan county.
2. Of, relating to, or constituting the home territory of an imperial or colonial state.
3. Of or relating to an ecclesiastical metropolitan.
n.
1. A citizen of a metropolis, especially one who displays urbane characteristics, attitudes, and values.
2.
a. In the Western Christian churches, a bishop with provincial powers, with some authority over suffragan bishops.
b. Eastern Orthodox Church A bishop who is head of an ecclesiastical province and ranks next below the patriarch.
Here is the definition of MSA that the US Census Bureau goes by:
Quote
Metropolitan Statistical Area
Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census: Metropolitan Areas. New areas usually are added annually; definitions of existing areas updated only after each decennial census, in years ending in 3. http://www.census.gov/population/www/estimates/metroarea.html
Definitions:
The general concept of a metropolitan area is that of a large population nucleus, together with adjacent communities having a high degree of social and economic integration with that core. Metropolitan areas comprise one or more entire counties, except in New England, where cities and towns are the basic geographic units.
The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) defines metropolitan areas for purposes of collecting, tabulating, and publishing federal data. Metropolitan area definitions result from applying published standards to Census Bureau data.
A metropolitan areas identified as a consolidated metropolitan statistical area (CMSA) has a population of one million or more and also has separate component areas (PMSAs - primary metropolitan statistical areas) meeting statistical criteria and supported by local opinion.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/meta/long_metro.htm
additional information: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/bulletins/fy2009/09-01.pdf
According to the US Census Bureau, Jacksonville's MSA consists of five counties.
QuoteJacksonville, FL Metropolitan Statistical Area
Baker County, FL
Clay County, FL
Duval County, FL
Nassau County, FL
St. Johns County, FL
http://www.census.gov/population/www/metroareas/lists/2007/List4.txt
I'm not debating what its great for. I just wanted to share what the actual definition of an MSA is, according to the federal government, and what it defines as Jax's MSA. Any idea of how the TPO differs from other transportation planning organizations across the country?
Does this help shed any light about the TPO?
QuoteAbout Us
What is the North Florida TPO?
Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization. By State Statute, TPO's are responsible for transportation related air, noise and water quality planning and the development of the:
Unified Planning Work Program (UPWP) detailing the TPO's annual budget and planning activities;
Transportation Improvement Program (TIP) listing the funding and staging of improvements for roadways, transit, air and seaports, bicyclists, pedestrians and the transportation disadvantaged over a five-year period; and
Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) with a 20+ year time horizon based on current needs and forecasted future growth which lists the multi-modal transportation projects that are needed and can be funded in that timeframe.
In addition to developing these plans and programs, the North Florida TPO identifies issues, convenes stakeholders, conducts studies and develops policies in light of local, national and global trends. Recent initiatives include coordinating regional legislative priorities, integrating land use and transportation planning and preparing for increased global trade. We also address current needs and challenges that impact our daily lives through programs for commuters, the transportation disadvantaged, bicyclists and pedestrians.
Our History
The First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization was officially designated in 1978 by Florida Governor Reuben Askew. An Inter-Local Agreement between the City of Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA), the Jacksonville Planning and Development Department, Clay County, St. Johns County and the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) first established the North Florida TPO.
In 2003 the North Florida TPO voted to become an independent regional agency, making it the third in Florida. This was a major decision that the Board made concurrent with expanding the North Florida TPO boundary to incorporate the newly designated St. Augustine Urbanized Area and portions of Clay County as a result of the 2000 Census. In 2004 the TPO boundary was expanded to include portions of Nassau County. Subsequently, the Board has added ex-officio members representing Baker, Putnam and Flagler Counties, as well as the U. S. Navy.
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=2
Quote from: stephendare on April 21, 2009, 12:40:53 PM
so its a state rather than federal idea?
Which would make the federal census definition even less relevant?
It appears to be federal, but this is a question for Denise Bunnewith, the TPO's Executive Director.
I believe she has visited and posted on this site before. Here is a link to her contact information: http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=9
QuoteWhat is the North Florida TPO?
Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization.
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=2
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/517750845_miBoi-X2.jpg)
Yup, those of us that do support it in Clay County wanted it to create a new bridge near Fleming Island.
That would ease traffic on the Buckman the most.
St Johns County has I95 helping traffic issues, Clay has nothing save for overcrowded Blanding and US17.
when they agreed on that plan to take it over farmland and the shands bridge, I knew it was the developers who had the biggest say and not the residents.
Quote from: jandar on April 21, 2009, 02:07:06 PM
Yup, those of us that do support it in Clay County wanted it to create a new bridge near Fleming Island.
That would ease traffic on the Buckman the most.
St Johns County has I95 helping traffic issues, Clay has nothing save for overcrowded Blanding and US17.
when they agreed on that plan to take it over farmland and the shands bridge, I knew it was the developers who had the biggest say and not the residents.
It seems rebuilding the Shands Bridge would have filled the need. Does every St. Johns River crossing have to be an interstate bridge? If you live in Clay and wish to live closer to an interstate, why not just live in Baker, Duval, Nassau, or St. Johns along the existing routes? It would be nice to preserve some area for those who wish to live as far from an interstate as possible ;D
I've always been in favor of a path that creates a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges. If there was one in place, it would help relieve N/S traffic on Blanding, Roosevelt, San Jose and I-295. Replacing the Shands with a new structure, that will be toll, destroys that possibility.
QuoteIt seems rebuilding the Shands Bridge would have filled the need. Does every St. Johns River crossing have to be an interstate bridge? If you live in Clay and wish to live closer to an interstate, why not just live in Baker, Duval, Nassau, or St. Johns along the existing routes? It would be nice to preserve some area for those who wish to live as far from an interstate as possible
Just rebuilding the Shands Bridge and leaving it SR 16 wouldn't solve the problem alone...there's just way too much traffic on US 17 going north during the commute, and Shands is 1) too far south to be an effective alternative and 2) once you're over the bridge, you still have all the 210 mess to deal with in St. John's county. In fact, just rebuilding Shands might make that worse, since it would be able to feed more people onto 210 to get to 95. The only way rebuilding Shands bridge becomes effective at relieving the issue is to have it connect directly to 95, which gets you the southern part of the outerbeltway.
Like Lake said, that area is in desperate need of just another bridge - heck, something that would connect Fleming Island to the other side would do wonders. It would remove all the Fleming Island traffic from US17N, meaning heading north would be a little easier, the Buckman would be significantly less of a nightmare, and would probably make life so much easier than the entire outer beltway. Only problem with that theory is 1) actually getting that land to build it and 2) there's no good place on the other side of the river to build out to since SR13 becomes one lane, and it pushes everyone either north back up to 295, or south back to 210...there would have to be some development done in Switzerland to handle that influx of traffic.
It is obvious that the author of this comment has not participated in Envision 2035, the update of the North Florida TPO's Long Range Transportation Plan. If he or she had, as I have, he or she would know that five alternative futures were developed by rethinking how and where we should grow. We have now narrowed the alternatives to two. One based on the adopted Comprehensive Plans of each county, which in my opinion promote sprawl and support the Outer Beltway, and an alternative land use plan that promotes redevelopment in Duval County, more dense development along the areas primary rail corridors, and more employment in Clay, Nassau and St. Johns Counties. Adoption of this alternative will require Counties to amend their Comp Plans.
The TPO will consider both alternatives at their May meeting.
Instead of just blogging, get involved. Attend the workshops when they are advertised. When they ask for public involvement they mean at the meeting. They offer the same workshop at least 8 times, so there is no excuse.
Quote from: stephendare on April 21, 2009, 12:16:38 PM
Thats a great list for the Census.
But its not a great list for a planning organization. Notice the
"adjacent communities having a high degree of social and economic integration with that core"
part of that definition.
the Census definition of "integrated" means that a certain percentage (25%) of folks in "bedroom" communities commute to the primary city for work.
QuoteTUFSU.. Weve already established that the MPO was established at the State level and not as an arm of the US Census board. Additionally, I think we can all read the clear english for ourselves.
It is not established at the state level. MPOs are required by the Feds to be formed for all urbanized areas. There are hundreds of MPOs all across the country.
The TPO is a result of a federal statue. It mentions this on the website right above history:
Quote from: thelakelander on April 21, 2009, 12:58:01 PM
QuoteWhat is the North Florida TPO?
Federal Statute's requires every urbanized area with a population of 50,000 or more, including all contiguous urban areas with a population of 1,000 or more per square mile, to have a Metropolitan Planning Organization.
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/index.php?id=2
Ya know? Seems like we have this big "high school" minded city, living in the age of Masters Degrees. We have our token large buildings, our token beaches, the Navy and FBC... We sat through the last great Florida building boom and managed to lose downtown square footage while Miami got 70 new towers. Jealous child that we are we will never admit that we're not Atlanta, or Miami or God Forbid even Orlando. Yeah, we got a few high rollers, one of which bought a football team. Now if we can just find 70,000 people in Northeast Florida that make more then $7.00 an hour working for Mickey D's or Wally World that could buy a few tickets. Money that certainly will compete with pink hair curlers, and Walgreen's nail polish and "honk if your horny" bumper stickers. We do have a port, and we do have railroads, but we alone feel that's kind of old school. We can't see how to steer our way to their success as we tumble backwards in Tampa's and Charlotte's jet wash.
Got a statue we can copy? We can't do original because we have so far to go just to pull even, surely no one will notice.
A beltway, another beltway, let's see how many does Miami have? How about Atlanta? How many did they have before they got MARTA or METRORAIL? We're not there yet, just give us a few more years and another 500,000 wannabes. Maybe BRT will work, you know it's JUST LIKE RAIL (only cheaper...). Buddy that has Jacksonville written all over it.
A new beltway will do nicely. I'm thinking two or three links up through Nassau County too. Oh and don't forget Starke. Lot's of football fans in Starke.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteThe 'about' page clearly states that MPOs are required for an area to get federal spending, but it certainly doesnt make any silly claims about them being organized by the feds.
In our local case, the First Coast Planning organization simply voted itself as the MPO, with approval from other agencies.
That is unless I am somehow completely mistaken. If so, I would love to know what number to call in DC to get further info about our local board.
Especially considering that the Federal Office of the DOT disavowed all knowledge of the local board.
Wrong.
Here's the link to FHWA's website on MPOs.
http://www.planning.dot.gov/metro.asp
By the way FHWA is a Federal organization. It "clearly" states here that MPOs are required in urbanized areas. Besides, why would the Feds choose to give MPOs money if they weren't somehow linked?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 21, 2009, 02:32:21 PM
I've always been in favor of a path that creates a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges. If there was one in place, it would help relieve N/S traffic on Blanding, Roosevelt, San Jose and I-295. Replacing the Shands with a new structure, that will be toll, destroys that possibility.
several alignments were studied as part of th PD&E study....one problem with a bridge to the north was that the road would traverse through St. Joe's Rivertown development, which did not have them pleased.
Quote from: stephendare on April 21, 2009, 04:48:48 PM
Especially considering that the Federal Office of the DOT disavowed all knowledge of the local board.
Who did you speak to at USDOT...and were they in D.C., Atlanta, or Tallahassee?
And yes, Stephen, state and local governments have been given the power to create Federally-mandated MPOs....for example, the Tampa Bay region has 6 MPOs representing 8 counties and South Florida has 3 MPOs for the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-West Palm area
The state has threatened several times to disband and reorganize the MPOs in both regions...in the Tampa Bay case, the hope is that at least Hillsborough, Pinellas, and Pasco work together....in order to potect their existing structures, the MPOs agreed to coordinate on regional priorities through the West Central Florida Chairs Coordinating Committee
http://www.regionaltransportation.org/
Now, just imagine how dysfunctional regional planning could be in these rapidly growing areas of Florida!
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 21, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 21, 2009, 02:32:21 PM
I've always been in favor of a path that creates a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges. If there was one in place, it would help relieve N/S traffic on Blanding, Roosevelt, San Jose and I-295. Replacing the Shands with a new structure, that will be toll, destroys that possibility.
several alignments were studied as part of th PD&E study....one problem with a bridge to the north was that the road would traverse through St. Joe's Rivertown development, which did not have them pleased.
Not to mention it would ruin the view from Hibernia...
I was thinking.
Maybe?
A canoe? Maybe an indian dugout Al La Isiah Hart? .5 cents a head... Hibernia to Switzerland non stop sort of has a ring to it.
Got to think BIG CITY here... BIG CITY! BIG, HUGE!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 21, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
several alignments were studied as part of th PD&E study....one problem with a bridge to the north was that the road would traverse through St. Joe's Rivertown development, which did not have them pleased.
Is Rivertown fully developed or did portions of it go up in smoke with the rest of the housing market? Sometimes you have to take one for the team. Or just go with the "no-build" alternative.
Now that that stage has come and gone, Outer Beltway opponents should continue to hope that the project ends up not being feasible to the private sector. After all, FDOT can't afford to spend $2 billion on it and there is only so much people are going to pay in toll, before traffic count estimates fall.
Stephen, others closer to the project may have to elaborate, but the Outer Beltway is well passed MPO endorsement stage. The argument I think you may be presenting should have been made 5-10 years ago.
Quote from: stephendare on April 22, 2009, 02:18:51 PM
Lake, don't we have graphics showing the two possible growth patterns?
Both scenarios include the Outer Beltway. The alternative relies on mass transit corridors, that in turn, eliminate the need for additional road improvements in certain areas across the region.
I really think this bridge is needed. I think it would help out alot with traffic, as said before, going North on 17 and across the Buckman. Until you have to drive through that mess everyday, you will never know what a blessing this would be. Now the part that goes through Clay to I-10, I am not too sure about, but it would be akin to the Atlanta bypass would it not? I take the bypass up there everytime.
Trend Scenario:
If our land use and current growth patterns don't change, the "colored" areas are most likely to be the spots of future growth between now and 2035.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/518623085_2Esbu-L.jpg)
Color - Classification - Density - Example
Red - City (3-30 dwelling units/acre) - Downtown, St. Augustine Historic District
Dark Purple - Town (15-30 dwelling units/acre) - Five Points, Transit oriented development
Light Purple - Village (3-15 dwelling units/acre) - San Jose, Avondale
Dark Yellow - City Neighborhood (3-30 dwelling units/acre) - Riverside, Springfield, San Marco
Light yellow - suburban development (1-6 dwelling units/acre) - Julington Creek
Light Red - No mixed-use Commercial - Baymeadows, River City Marketplace
Purple/Gray - Industrial - JaxPort
Alternative Scenario D
Future growth is channeled towards proposed commuter rail corridors, resulting in denser development, using less land.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/518623106_WPjQn-L.jpg)
As you can see, the Outer Beltway is a part of both scenarios. However land use changes would result in less low density sprawl taking place around it.
Quote from: stephendare on April 22, 2009, 02:19:20 PM
Except that the MPO became an MPO about five years ago. ;)
not true...as stated yourself, the MPO was formed in 1978....it became an independent body (separate from COJ) in 2003 because the official 2000 census-definition for the Jacksonville METROPOLITAN area grew to include portions of St. Johns, Nassau, and Clay Counties.
Keep in mind that the "Trend" scenario is really a compilation of all the local government comprehensive plans...so this is the adopted land use plan for the region as of now.
Lake... Are there links to the maps? I would be interested in looking more closely at them.
Here you go.
http://www.firstcoastmpo.com/envision2035/docs/Alternative%20Scenarios.pdf
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2009, 04:49:40 PM
Trend Scenario:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/518623085_2Esbu-L.jpg)
It's clear from these drawings that the quickest way to get from the Outer Beltway and I-10 to the Outer Beltway and I-95 or vice versa is to just stay on I-10 to I-95 through downtown. The direct route is superior to the inner (I-295) beltway as well.
Thus, the only reason to build this as a beltway is to (1) bypass congestion, if any, because the higher speeds make up for the time lost taking the longer distance or (2) to open up more land for urban sprawl.
With respect to congestion, it isn't severe enough to justify these very long detours or their expense. And, if said traffic is deemed to be "congested", we could solve the problem, as mentioned repeatedly, by other means (such as rail or bus mass transit) for a lot less money and with a far more favorable impact on our environment and quality of life.
As to urban sprawl, we certainly don't need anymore of that. This takes us in the wrong direction by far.
So, from a REGIONAL standpoint, aside from a bridge crossing, why build this snake of a road?
What's wrong with middle and southern Clay and St. Johns counties remaining a "playground" for Jax's urbanites? There are great jobs and quality of life in relying on rural and eco tourism. Play up boating, fishing, hunting, hiking, photography tours, wildlife observations, kayaking and canoeing, beaches, water skiing, surfing, horseback riding, roadside produce stands, farm visits, airboats, country fairs, weekend getaways, etc. etc.
QuoteWhat's wrong with middle and southern Clay and St. Johns counties remaining a "playground" for Jax's urbanites? There are great jobs and quality of life in relying on rural and eco tourism. Play up boating, fishing, hunting, hiking, photography tours, wildlife observations, kayaking and canoeing, beaches, water skiing, surfing, horseback riding, roadside produce stands, farm visits, airboats, country fairs, weekend getaways, etc. etc.
The problem with this idea is that there are not enough jobs of this type to support the population and projected population in Clay County. Thus, the majority of Clay residents commute to Duval County for work, creating the traffic issues we are currently experiencing. From an economic development standpoint I think it would be beneficial to promote more job growth in Clay to help cut down on the out of county home-based work trips. A starter commuter rail line wouldn't hurt either. :)
Quote from: cline on April 22, 2009, 08:49:50 PM
QuoteWhat's wrong with middle and southern Clay and St. Johns counties remaining a "playground" for Jax's urbanites? There are great jobs and quality of life in relying on rural and eco tourism. Play up boating, fishing, hunting, hiking, photography tours, wildlife observations, kayaking and canoeing, beaches, water skiing, surfing, horseback riding, roadside produce stands, farm visits, airboats, country fairs, weekend getaways, etc. etc.
The problem with this idea is that there are not enough jobs of this type to support the population and projected population in Clay County. Thus, the majority of Clay residents commute to Duval County for work, creating the traffic issues we are currently experiencing. From an economic development standpoint I think it would be beneficial to promote more job growth in Clay to help cut down on the out of county home-based work trips. A starter commuter rail line wouldn't hurt either. :)
Cline, I understand, but then Clay just becomes another Jacksonville and the process repeats itself with people surrounding it, e.g. Putnam County, wanting their own jobs. At what point do we draw a line and say, if you want to live close to a job, give up the car, live in higher density, and take mass transit. To think differently, is to feed urban sprawl. There are limits and the sooner we recognize this, the better.
Separately, of the four options on the FCMPO web site, clearly "D" is my choice, although I would prefer it without the outer beltway. Again, we need to start planning the region for mass transit or we will "pave ourselves to death", literally!
again, the Outer Beltway was taken as a given...along with every other project that is considered "committed"....meaning construction within the next 5 years.
9B would have also been shown but it has been bumped out of the 5-year window because of the state's budget problems....
It doesn't mean that everyone agrees with the projects....just that these were the parameters of the study.
And I think Lake can tell you that a significant amopunt of potential transit projects were shown with Scenario "D"....if this all goes through, it will be a huge leap forward for Jax....no LRTP before has shown even one major transit project.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2009, 09:31:06 PM
And I think Lake can tell you that a significant amopunt of potential transit projects were shown with Scenario "D"....if this all goes through, it will be a huge leap forward for Jax....no LRTP before has shown even one major transit project.
So tufsu, if you were handicapping this, what are the relative probabilities of each scenario being adopted? ...and then, actually implemented/adhered to?
Before this week, I would have told you that Alt. D had about a 25% chance...now I think its closer to 50%...now, actually having all the local governments modify their comp. plans to match it...and then adhere to it....chances of that are about zero!
But even the trend scenario supports some transit and I think its very likely that commuter rail will make it into the Needs Plan regardless....whether it all ends up being cost-fasible is another issue.