I'm Smaller than Jax and I have Rail: Tucson, AZ
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/516077878_YLNRw-M.jpg)
Despite being 301,210 residents smaller than Jacksonville, Tucson is in the midst of expanding its streetcar network. Tucson's streetcar experience provides Jacksonville with a unique example of how to embrace rail in the urban core.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1069
Awesome VW bus too.
This is but the latest in along string of examples set by peer (and inferior) cities that Jax should seriously take a look at and implement.
You know that cane that Grandpa Biff uses in Back to the Future II? The one with the brass fist on the end of it? The one where he knocks everyone over the head with it and goes "Hello!!! Anybody home??"
I feel like all of these (ver well done, by the way) articles are one giant Brass-fist-tipped Biff Tannen cane that should be rapped over the heads of city leaders time and time again. Oh wait. They have been.
Do it some more!
If it's such a great project, why can't we find a private investor to do it? City in the way? Certainly the land from Roosevelt to the airport can be bought at a relative bargain -- especially now. . .
Probably the same reason we can't find a private investor to build public libraries, public schools or streets. Btw, if you really want to see Northshore and Panama Park come alive, you definitely should be backing the return of rail to those neighborhoods.
I'm not not backing rail.
But if there's no commercial reason for it to exist the city sure as hell isn't ever going to do it.
They're even cheaper than a for-profit.
Oh, there is a commercial reason that will impact the city's pockets. Infill economic development and the re-establishment of the urban core as a viable community that is an attractive place for the majority of the population to live and invest in.
Then we should be able to get the urban core-based businesses to kick start the heart.
Also, private companies build those things all the time. Charter schools and Google Books are two pretty good examples I can think of. . .
Some may participate in a public/private financed project, if a plan were developed that benefitted them directly. In Detroit, this is happening right now.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20080224/EMAIL/898898114
Even locally, such ideas have been tossed around that could help transit and private companies who would benefit from such investments:
QuoteLangton said the idea behind the project is to build a “transit-oriented development†â€" one that will complement JTA’s planned multi-modal transportation center that incorporates the Osborn Center, Amtrak, Greyhound and all of JTA’s transportation options. “We want to take the top off the Jefferson Street Skyway station and build over it. We are working closely with JTA to build a transit access village.â€
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=49619
I would hope that any plan produced locally, would include the possibility of private/public investment. Anyway, if we want isolated examples, the Old Peublo Trolley, Disney's Monorail, Dallas' M-Line Streetcar, Fort Smith's Trolley and Indianapolis' Clarion Health Peoplemover systems are examples of mass transit funded by private companies or not-for-profit organizations. However, their intention was not to spur economic development, on other people's property in areas like Northshore, Springfield and Metro North.
By the same token, you'll be hard pressed to find private companies willing to build new roads or repair existing public utilities for the goodness of their heart or to make life easier on their neighbors. This is where the public sector comes into play.
QuoteNot only can the Central Florida Rail Project and the continued development of Tri-Rail relieve congestion, but they can also improve air quality, and stimulate economic development throughout the region and the entire state. The SunRail commuter rail project will add 246,000 additional jobs, with $7.3 billion in total transit-oriented future development. The Tri-Rail system will have a substantial impact on moving commuters, tourists and commerce through the region. Since 2007, in Charlotte, a short 9-mile light rail line has generated investments of over $1.8 billion.
http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/news/politics/dcblog/2009/04/congress_to_legislature_fund_t_1.html
If Jacksonville wants quality economic development in forgotten areas, like the Northside communities, investing in rail should be seriously considered as a part of the solution.
We were supposed to start small with the skyway and then branch out and get larger; didn't happen. I am all for light rail/trolley or whatever the hell y'all call it, but how do we know that that won't become a waste of money also like the skyway? Again, all for it, but...will it work and will the public bite the bone? If it is ever approved, how can we ensure, even before it is built, that it won't be a failure like the Skyway and how do we get the public to love it and be ready to ride it and support it before it hits the rail tracks?
Heights Unknown
Lakelander Quoted a Quote: Not only can the Central Florida Rail Project and the continued development of Tri-Rail relieve congestion, but they can also improve air quality, and stimulate economic development throughout the region and the entire state. The SunRail commuter rail project will add 246,000 additional jobs, with $7.3 billion in total transit-oriented future development. The Tri-Rail system will have a substantial impact on moving commuters, tourists and commerce through the region. Since 2007, in Charlotte, a short 9-mile light rail line has generated investments of over $1.8 billion.
Heights Unknown Sez: Just because these commuter rail projects work in other cities, urban areas, and/or regions it doesn't mean it'll work here. Jacksonville is a very odd city (in all due respect), and it takes a lot to get our citizens, let alone the city government and its leaders to really be sold on anything new or unusual. I rode the Tri-Rail to work from Broward to Miami-Dade when I lived in Fort Lauderdale, and also from Broward to Palm Beach County, and it is a tremendous success; but those 3 counties, which comprise the MSA in that region, are a completely different animal than the First Coast or the Jax metro area.
Heights Unknown
This is where we differ. Imo, Jacksonville is not unique. For every Fort Lauderdale someone can bring to the table, a Norfolk or Tucson can be offered as a counter point. The things Jacksonville needs to overcome are an inferiority complex and excuse making for continuing to do nothing.
QuoteWe were supposed to start small with the skyway and then branch out and get larger; didn't happen. I am all for light rail/trolley or whatever the hell y'all call it, but how do we know that that won't become a waste of money also like the skyway?
Heights, the skyway isn't rail and spending $73.6 million per mile should not be considered starting small. It should be considered starting insane. So how do we know infrastructure improvements won't be a waste? The key to this answer is planning. Construct affordable lines that serve where people live and want to go.
Weren't the Jax area "Traction" operations and the Jacksonville Coach Company private?
Hi "Lake;" As ususal thanks for your fantastic response; I always learn from you.
I am aware that the Skyway isn't rail. Check out my second post after the first. In my opinion, it doesn't matter what type of transportation you provide to the public/commuters...it should be a success and it should work and not be a failure. I'll bet other modes of transportation in many other cities that have rail are a success as well as rail, trolley, or whatever. Jax just seems to have a hard time with getting anything off the ground let alone rail (yes, poor planning, leadership, vision, marketing, etc.).
So whether it's Tucson, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Atlanta, Miami, or New York City, Jax should be able to hold it's own or even excel in it's commuter public transportation efforts; you would agree Lake, we are behind the 8 ball; we say we're major league and top tier, but I can't tell.
All I'm saying is...before we venture into any new modes of transportation, let's make sure that the public is ready for it, and it will be a success even before it hits the streets, rails, or wherever.
I guess the question we, or Jax, should ask ourselves is..."are we (Jacksonville) ready for light rail, rail, etc.?" And if the answer is no (and in general I think it is), then we'd better put it on the back burner; and if the answer is an undeniable unmistakable strong yes, then build it! We can't just build something and hope that it's a success. I can't even tell (someone help me with this), whether there is a strong, sure public/commuter demand for rail in Jacksonville (is the public ready?).
Heights Unknown ;)
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on April 22, 2009, 08:56:35 PM
Weren't the Jax area "Traction" operations and the Jacksonville Coach Company private?
Yes, however the economics of mass transit were different. A fleet of new streetcars could be had for the price of a new compact car today. The Electric bill in March of 1910 for Jacksonville Electric Ry (just prior to Jacksonville Traction) was $555.00. This for a system that at that time was about 45 miles long. Motormen, Conductors etc are in the book at $5. and some change. Streetcar fare was a nickle, but no one drove, EVERYONE rode the cars. Even as late as the 1940's-50's, people still hadn't got the idea of private autos ruling the world. http://www.youtube.com/v/XOXDrAk4tpc&color1
Even HOLLYWOOD gets it RIGHT! FYI: The Red Cars was the 1,200 mile Pacific Electric Railway, which covered the Los Angeles basin like a blanket.
City Coach was a division of Motor Transit Company, which was owned by National City Lines, which was owned by GM, Firestone, Standard Oil, and Phillips. In other words Dr. Doom from the above Video got away with the same trick here. Sadly in 1932, while LA lasted until the early 1960's. The feelings were the same, the motive was buy the little Traction Companies one by one, dismantle them in such a way that there could be no return. Operate replacement Buses which were built by or used products from the mother firms. After the "new" wears off, run the companies into the ground and unload the whole operation on unsuspecting cities. Thus locking in a guaranteed government income for an eternity.
Then at a time when every other city in the world is going back to the Streetcar or Interurban (LRT), Jacksonville elects a do nothing mayor from a Concrete and Oil Company. Smart move Jaxons. OCKLAWAHA
But, Ock. Hasn't there been a little inflation since 1910? Postage was 2 cents per ounce then.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 22, 2009, 10:10:03 PM
All I'm saying is...before we venture into any new modes of transportation, let's make sure that the public is ready for it, and it will be a success even before it hits the streets, rails, or wherever.
I guess the question we, or Jax, should ask ourselves is..."are we (Jacksonville) ready for light rail, rail, etc.?" And if the answer is no (and in general I think it is), then we'd better put it on the back burner; and if the answer is an undeniable unmistakable strong yes, then build it! We can't just build something and hope that it's a success. I can't even tell (someone help me with this), whether there is a strong, sure public/commuter demand for rail in Jacksonville (is the public ready?).
Heights Unknown ;)
I'd say we are ripe for the economic infill development potential rail will bring. This city's core has half the density it enjoyed 50 years ago and its littered with under utilized property. As for ridership estimates, the commuter rail study indicates that commuter rail will be viable in Jacksonville. Amtrak's studies have them believing they can actually break even running an enhanced statewide system with Jacksonville as a potential hub. I have not seen streetcar ridership estimates, but I do believe you can make any rail corridor viable by fully integrating it with the existing bus system (in addition to having it go where people live, work and play). By full integration, I mean turning it into a transit spine with the bus system set up to feed riders into it. So, I'd say Jax is ready and opportunity is knocking at the door. It just needs leaders that are willing to grow a pair, get from under the bed and open it.
Certainly, but that was also a time when if you didn't want your date or mate to eat dirt, you rode to town on the streetcars.
GM and Companies, did get into trouble with the Courts, and ended up getting their hands slapped. Most only paid token fines. Cleveland managed to win some serious jail time after the infamous photo of their National City Lines exec handing a pay check to the local streetcar company in front of burning streetcars.
Jacksonville took quite a different path, we got a new exclusive distribution center for all GM products. Tampa's City Council all got brand new LaSalle Automobiles.
What streetcar brings to the table today in some 70 cities, is Billions of dollars of new infill development. This is happening in Norfolk right now in spite of the economic times. Streetcars can be vintage or modern or a mix of both, but a vintage system can play both transit and attraction roles.
OCKLAWAHA
Vintage also happens to be cheaper to implement.
So what are we waiting for? Oh yeah our new sister city CURITIBA BRASIL.
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/
OCKLAWAHA
I value your opinion Lake, and if you say we're ready, then I wish we would just go ahead and go with it and build. But wait, do we have the leadership and leaders who are willing to step forward, lead, and help to make Jacksonville the world class and top tier U.S. City that it should be and is "yearning" to be?
Heights Unknown
Do we have leadership and leaders willing to step forward? We have a few, but they won't be that effective if they don't have decent public support behind them. This is why we continue to force feed the issue to this community. If Jax is lucky, mass transit will become a main topic of the upcoming mayoral race.
The forcefeeding must be continued... I lived in San Jose while the debate raged on the light rail. Same excuses and reasons not to do it there as people frequently use here. Then the construction woes and grumblings... then the driver vs light rail issues and learning curves. Ridership was low and slow for quite awhile... Californians do not easily leave their cars. Public service announcements and advocacy must be constant until a critical mass develops...
Guys, you have to think of the enormous economic burden that rail would throw on to JAX. We don't have enough money to keep our Libraries open or even handle necessary public services. You need to read about how Atlanta is really struggling with MARTA and they have huge ridership. I go there once a month for work and ride MARTA from ATL and it is always packed. They are talking about stopping service on Fri-Sat and Sun because it is too expensive. This is not a situation of "if you build it, they will ride". This is really expensive.
You would have to raise taxes on everything to pay for this and that would dictate a public referendum which undoubtedly would be shot down in this current environment.
Good points Ron but if you look at the development MARTA has brought to it's immediate surroundings Atlanta has come out way ahead on that one. Every time a politician plays politics with a service's funding does not inherently make it a good idea. Scaled back mass transit means ramped up road transit which is every bit as subsidized and increases traffic in a city that has plenty.
Atlanta should have put some of the economic gains generated by MARTA, back into the system. If cities came around to doing this, MARTA and other systems would be just fine.
Quote from: Ron Mexico on April 27, 2009, 09:52:56 AM
Guys, you have to think of the enormous economic burden that rail would throw on to JAX. We don't have enough money to keep our Libraries open or even handle necessary public services. You need to read about how Atlanta is really struggling with MARTA and they have huge ridership. I go there once a month for work and ride MARTA from ATL and it is always packed. They are talking about stopping service on Fri-Sat and Sun because it is too expensive. This is not a situation of "if you build it, they will ride". This is really expensive.
You would have to raise taxes on everything to pay for this and that would dictate a public referendum which undoubtedly would be shot down in this current environment.
First off Ron, hello from the old Transit Hippie. Atlanta's MARTA is heavy rail, this is a term that defines most 3rd rail, elevated or subway trains in the world. Nobody in their right mind has ever considered such a system here. Streetcar and Light Rail are pretty much alike and the vehicles can be built to move from one to the other. So your slightly larger and faster LRT cars could come downtown and enter the same track used by a Historic style streetcar system. It's all about how the system is designed and nothing is more flexible then electric rail.
Ron, I doubt that you could find a streetcar or Light Rail Project anywhere in the USA that hasn't more then paid it's way by creating a tidal wave of new development. The last numbers I have are that for every dollar spent on streetcar, $1,200 dollars in new development take place!
If we buy into the argument that BRT (the Star of our new sister City Curitiba Brasil) is "Just like Rail Only Cheaper", we are fooling ourselves. BRT is said to be faster then streetcars or LRT, yet in Curitiba where the average Transit Bus moves at 8 MPH, the wonder BRT system of the World has raised the average speed to a breathtaking 12 MPH. For all the PR that has gone into BRT the sole reason that it even considered a "Product Option" is because under years of Republican or Clinton control, there has not been enough funding at the Federal level to build any more real transit systems... (Read that RAIL).
So the government cooked up the busway, an old idea from the 1950's and repackaged it with some new transit toys, que jumping, real time (Skyway Style) information, low entry, private lanes etc... and sold it off as a wonderful cheap alternative to Rail.
As usual whenever a new goofy idea crops up, Jacksonville bought into it so fast that the Skyway blushed.
Now for a medical dose of reality, streetcar is often cheaper to build then BRT, and almost ALWAYS cheaper to build then the crazy plans JTA was originally floating at City Hall. Down the road, those buses cost the taxpayers .80 cents per passenger mile to operate and maintain. Those streetcars? The ones we're too afraid to build? .40 cents per passenger mile.
Yet these local Parrots and Lemmings continue to repeat the phrase... Yep, we'll go broke on rail. OCKLAWAHA
(http://railforthevalley.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/3270610208_10e055086c.jpg)
PCC heritage streetcar in the Castro
(http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/images/uploads/gl/streetcar-WEB.jpg)
Modern Streetcar's are able to run with either LRT or Heritage Streetcars on the same system. Mix and Match!
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(http://www.cabq.gov/transit/images/streetcar%20images/StreetcarConstruction.jpg)
THIS is modern Streetcar Construction... Doesn't look nearly as monsterous as "they'd" have you believe right?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway_works.JPG/300px-Cambridgeshire_Guided_Busway_works.JPG)
"BRT JUST LIKE RAIL ONLY CHEAPER?" This is a BRT system under construction in England. How much "CHEAPER" do you think this is as opposed to the Streetcar construction photo above? NOT!
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(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/sj-lrt-historic-scar-ped-mall_lh.jpg)
San Jose Heritage Streetcar on the LRT system.
(http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/1-madrid-light-rail.jpg)
Modern Light Rail TRAIN in rush hour Madrid (try this with a bus and ONE driver)
(http://www.samknecht.com/trips/sd_80_la_light_rail_transit_sm.JPG)
LRT a smashing success in the Auto City of the World, Los Angeles.
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(http://www.bayrailalliance.org/files/images/BART_macarthur_oakland.jpg)
Heavy Rail BART in Oakland, CA
(http://osumaterials.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/chicago-el.jpg)
Chicago HEAVY RAIL - CTA the EL in downtown
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(http://www.apta.com/media/images/commuter_rail_commuters_small.jpg)
Commuter Rail runs on regular railroads with regular trains, NJ Transit System seen here.
(http://www.evclay.com/images/casestudies/tri-rail-large.jpg)
Florida's only Commuter Rail line the TRI-RAIL in Southeast Florida.
OCKLAWAHA