Metro Jacksonville

QuoteEven with the downturn in the economy, the state is processing an unprecedented number of proposals for new homes and commercial development.

By KRIS HUNDLEY
St. Petersburg Times


Published: Sunday, April 19, 2009 at 12:01 a.m.
Last Modified: Monday, April 20, 2009 at 5:49 a.m.
TALLAHASSEE | A development boom is brewing under the radar of Floridians distracted by deteriorating real estate values and record foreclosures.

The state is processing an unprecedented number of proposals for new homes and commercial development. If approved, these projects could pump more than 600,000 rooftops onto a market suffering from a surplus of product and slowdown in population growth.

Also on developers' wish lists: the right to build a half-billion square feet of nonresidential space.

Such pipe dreams might seem laughable in today's depressed economy and moribund housing market. But property owners with an eye on the future are spinning plans that have the potential to unlock hundreds of thousands of agricultural and environmentally sensitive acres to residential and retail development over the coming decades.

Mike McDaniel, a planner at the state's Department of Community Affairs

, finds the surge stunning.

'Instinctively, most people would think there would be a slowdown,' he said. 'And it may be true at the other end, where the developers apply for the permit (to build). But there's been no letup here. It's a gold rush.''

McDaniel said landowners are behind the push for a record number of new planned communities. Regardless of whether these mega­projects become reality, the owners stand to win.

'They want to get the land use change, strike it rich, then move off to where there are not a lot of people,' he said.

But where will that leave Florida?

McDaniel, 57, rides herd over the hundreds of projects submitted for state review.

Among the proposals on deck for review at DCA on just a single recent morning:

Plans for the town of Edgewater, south of New Smyrna Beach, to double in size by jumping Interstate 95 and annexing 5,181 acres. The project, 'Restoration,' would put 8,500 housing units on land that includes wetlands, agriculture and bear habitat.

Fellsmere, a crossroads of about 4,000 in Indian River Count has annexed about 22,000 acres of farmland for 42,000 homes.

Wildwood, known for the clogged junction of I-75 and the Florida Turnpike, has stretched its north-south boundaries 15 miles, snapping up empty parcels with plans for up to about 87,000 new homes.

McDaniel points to a satellite map of Flagler and St. Johns counties that shows plans for four projects totaling more than 20,000 homes and 7-million square feet of nonresidential space. 'My jaw dropped when I saw this,' he said.

'Can there possibly be this much need? And is this area really suitable for this intensity of development?''

There is a sense inside the department that the sentries are being stormed at the gate. Florida's legislators, eager to jump-start the economy, have proposed everything from eliminating the oversight agency to carving out exemptions for bigger and bigger sections of the state.

Landowners and developers, meanwhile, are taking advantage of the lull to push ahead with approvals so they'll be ready to move at the slightest sign of an uptick. It's not cheap to change an orange grove's potential use from agricultural to residential, but it's a great investment.

'Your property value goes way up,' said Charles Gauthier, DCA's director of community planning. 'Land with an urban designation is going to sell for a higher amount than land with a rural designation.'

article: http://www.theledger.com/article/20090419/NEWS/904209959/1374?Title=Florida-s-Building-Proposals-On-Rise

This has bad news written all over it.

Just curious, what is bad about it?

this article is just ridiculous....sure there are people submitting for comprehensive plan amendments and DRIs....but its not like they will be building anytime soon.

Most of the DRIs have buildout dates that are 10-20 years out...and the comp. plans are the same...so all this means is that people are getting ready if/when the market turns back around.

And as the article intimates, a good bit of the problem is Hometown Democracy...this will be on the 2010 ballot and will likely pass....so smart people are making sure they get in the pipeline before it can take effect.

On a side note, I think it is almost comical listening to Mike McDaniel @ DCA whine about his workload....the man does it to himself!

Quote from: Jason on April 20, 2009, 09:37:22 AM
Just curious, what is bad about it?

Building on wetlands and such, when this state needs to concentrate more on infill within urbanized areas. If one area is going to grow smartly, it will be the West Bay Sector near Panama City, around it's new int'l airport.

I just don't understand this need to continue endless sprawl in Central Florida, do they not get it already?

Amen reednavy
The time for endless sprawl is past. The state has the opportunity with the housing market downturn to sit back, take there time and look at what the state of Florida has and what we need. The powers that be can look at areas that already have the infrastructure in place build them out and save the taxpayer some money. The old status Que no longer apples, restore, renovate, reuse, infill, and then if needed build new and connect close to existing investiture.

I agree with you guys 100%, I was jus looking for your input ;). 

Now is the time for the cities and the state to increase the restrictions on sprawl and promote smarter growth within the existing developed boundaries.  There is a good bit of undeveloped land left (suprisingly) and it would be a travesty for it all to get gobbled up.

FYI...the Destiny project is being planned in a similar manner to the West Bay Sector Plan....as such, some might argue that its not sprawl.

^ those that are banking on it would argue...  ;)

I think another part of C. Florida's problem is the large amount of sprawl and growth occuring outside of incoporated cities, i.e. Orange, Osceola, and Lake counties.

some people just don't get the "endless sprawl is BAD". and hurricane after hurricane they still do not know trees and forests are our best protection.

Quote from: reednavy on April 20, 2009, 11:54:59 AM
I think another part of C. Florida's problem is the large amount of sprawl and growth occurring outside of Incorporated cities, i.e. Orange, Osceola, and Lake counties.

Ock....Disney has not refused to allow HSR to go through their parks....the plan is for it to go along I-4 with a station at Disney.

Disney has said that they will put all of their guests who currently use bus transportation from OIA onto HSR if they choose the route that avoids I-Drive and the other theme parks

So, if the route goes from the airport to I-4, via the Bee line, a stop at I-Drive would not be included?

Quote from: fatcat on April 20, 2009, 02:12:25 PM
some people just don't get the "endless sprawl is BAD". and hurricane after hurricane they still do not know trees and forests are our best protection.

In most areas, our urban forests and woodlands are the weak point here, and that has been noted many times before.

Back on topic, many fields in Metro Orlando are surrounded by development, yet hey want to go further out, rather than fill those spots in.

I'm definetly pro growth, but in a smart and enviro. friendly way on urban areas, but leave the small towns alone please.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 20, 2009, 02:52:50 PM
So, if the route goes from the airport to I-4, via the Bee line, a stop at I-Drive would not be included?

I would assume in that case there would be....originally, two alignments were proposed...Disney wanted the one that followed the Greeneway because it didn't have an I-Drive stop....but the  preferred route was never entirely decided.

From what I hear, FDOT will be taking over the HSR studies...and will likely update the PD&E as a first task

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 20, 2009, 02:40:59 PM
Disney has said that they will put all of their guests who currently use bus transportation from OIA onto HSR if they choose the route that avoids I-Drive and the other theme parks

Smells to high heavens doesn't it? Maybe that's why it attracts the rat.  

OCKLAWAHA

I couldn't agree with you guys more.  I won't restate the obvious, but also want to point out that this state spends billions of dollars every year building new infrastructure (roads, sewer lines, electric lines, etc.).  We spend all this money on new growth and neglect the older areas where upgrades are needed to water lines and repaving of streets built years ago.  In my mind these developers with plans for thousands and thousands of homes need to be stopped.  They are acting out of pure greed, don't give a damn about the environment and could care less about helping communities grow via smart growth.  I'm going to blame them for global warming while I'm at it! >:(  I wonder how much their lobbyists get paid....I bet it's a hefty sum.   >:( >:( >:(

not quite true...some of the most expensive infrastructure projects over the last few years have been rebuilding urban interstates...like I-4 and 275 in Tampa...and the 95/10 interchange here.

And while I agree with you about developers, the dirty little secret that most Floridians don't want to hear is that many large-scale developments (like Julington Creek and Oakleaf) more than pay for themselves over 20-30 years...in essence, the property and ad valorem tax collections from people in those communities more than offset the costs for schools, roads, sewers, etc. needed for the development

I am not sure if the property tax pays for the new construction. Besides, 20-30 yr is a very long time even though Real estate is a business if patience. But there will be no payback for those trees :(

its not just property txes....its business taxes, additional sales tax revenues, etc.

But I agree with you....the plain and simple cost-revenue analysis should not be the only factor in the decision.

So tufsu, I'm not saying you are wrong, but it is really hard to imagine that these subdivisions actually are profitable for the city.  I mean 20-30 years is a long time to wait and by then the way we develop in Jacksonville, that same area that was "new" is now a "in the past" development and it starts to lose it's appeal.  And what about these huge subdivisions that are going bankrupt?  Did you read today's article in the TU?  You can't tell me the "let's build as fast as we can on the outskirts of town" is worth it!  Now we have all this infrastructure and I bet you nothing more gets built for at least 8-10 years.  Have you read the article about Flint, MI downsizing.  They are actually making their town smaller to save money.  I'm not anti-growth, I just think that Jacksonville in particular doesn't have a plan and we are bleeding money to greedy developers.  If I was in charge I would immediately halt all outer growth in Duval and force developers to focus on infill projects where infrastructure is already built.  We would save money and still grow our tax base. 

the fact is that the state growth management department (DCA) hired an economic expert a few year back to develop a fiscal impact model....in the majority of cases, the model showed that large-scale developments more than paid for themselves by the time they were built out....believe me, that wasn't the answer DCA was looking for...so they (and others) spent a year trying to debunk the model....but couldn't.

The dirty little secret is that more expensive housing developments offer governments the most bang for the buck...which of course goes against the notion of encouraging developers to add more workforce/affordable housing.

Well that makes sense because the higher real estate sale value would generate higher tax revenue and attract people who would in the end contribute more to the local economy.  The problem with this is that 4 years ago this was possible because every middle income family was buying their dream house for $350,000 in a beautiful new suburban community, even though they couldn't afford it.  Now however, the dream is smashed.  Had Jacksonville held back and we had not gotten caught up in the housing craze, we would be far better off.  What are we going to do with all of these half finished subdivisions? 

I might agree...but keep in mind that Jacksonville is better off than any other major metro in Florida in terms of home values....primarily because we didn't build that rapidly.

If you want to see half-finished places, take a trip to Ft. Myers...and check out Lehigh Acres and Cape Coral!

We've got to be careful; can't build and then hope they'll come, and, we don't want to start doing the same thing we were doing a year or more ago that lead to this real estate mess that we're already in. what in the world are these people thinking or trying to do?  (you got me!). 

I say wait until the market gets better, people start buying again, ensure that property sales are done right, correctly, and within the guidelines of the new rules, and, for God's sakes don't sell property to people that can't afford it or don't make enough money to make the payments.

Heights Unknown

the urban (or suburban ) sprawl not only leave behind half finished subdivisions when market tank, but also drains people from urban core and leave existing buildings to rot.  >:(

Does anyone have any guesses as to what percentage of the foreclosed homes are outside the urbanized area of the city?  My guess is that the burbs have a much larger stock of empty and foreclosed homes than the established center city neighborhoods do.

interesting update on this...the DCA secretary withdrew his support of the growth mgmt. bills in the Senate and House today....kind of odd because he had been supporting the concepts for months.