I don't know if this has been mentioned yet.........
Yesterday some Springfielders (residents and developers) & city people a had a meet about the Trolley, which included a ride in the Trolley on the proposed routes.
It's going forward and is set to start just after Main Street is finished apparently.
The 3 hubs, it appears, will be The Landing, the new 3rd & Main Apartments, and the Shands / Proton facility.
I think their will be a small charge as to discourage homeless to ride all day. 7am-7pm I think.
Should be nice !
As far as I know this is a work in progress. Specific route, stops and times of operation have not been finalized. I believe JTA will be holding public meetings, sending out surveys and asking the residents and business owners/Shands of Springfield what type of service they would like to see. Look for more details soon.
Based on the initial information this appears to be mainly for the proton beam patients who will be staying at third and main, but it's a great start!
No, its a lot more than that. They are not the only players involved, but its a big part.
I wonder if any of the smaller businesses on Main and 8th will get behind it to make it happen. Any SAMBA members out there who would support it?
Pretty sure it's going to happen . . . . . 250k a year to operate i think.
The trolley needs all the support it can get.
Are there any plans to feed it with riders from regular bus routes in the area?
(http://www.ace-ej.org/files/images/2008_1021_Light_rail_now-crop-400.jpg)
This is NOT a shuttle bus!
I still can't believe that people really think a "Potato Chip Truck" slapped together as a cheap amusement park shuttle bus and painted to supposedly represent a real "TROLLEY" will be a magic pill that is going to create economic prosperity. These things are an insult to the intelligence of every citizen they pass, and an embarrassment to those of us who hear fellow citizens bragging that "WE HAVE TROLLEYS". NO WE DON'T! This rolling pile of smoke and mirrors along with BRT are the ultimate Flim Flam's produced by a troubled fossil fueled transit manufacturing industry.
My wife served breakfast today with white plates painted to look like eggs and bacon were on them... VERY FILLING STUFF. I think I'll go back for seconds... NOT! Is the peasantry REALLY this stupid? No wonder the wife wants to move to St. Augustine, or alternately BACK TO COLOMBIA! At least they know a train from a bag of hammers!
(http://www.hino-global.com/up_img/20080625_2.jpg)
About JTA?
JTA is playing build the ridership and frankly has pulled out all the stops with the limited budget this city and state has allotted to transit. It has to suck to be in this beg, borrow, or steal position. Frankly the money would have probably gone farther with a low floor, electric shuttle bus with induction charging. Something that looks like a... Well like a... BUS. But a bus with a purpose, a distinct, clean, brandable, comfortable and instantly recognizable magic carpet. After all even JTA is calling these goofy "trolleys" the "PCT TROLLEY FLEET". (uh, yes, THEY have adopted my nickname for them "POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS!")
(http://www.dpp.cz/image-cache/max-800x600/86-bus.jpg)
THIS is a shuttle bus!
SPRINGFIELD? Poor deluded Springfield wants to be the tail that wags the dog... This will only seal your transit fate to a lifetime of Hocus Pocus. The arse end of Transit.
(http://www.moonbattery.com/roger-rabbit_judge-doom.jpg)
Judge Doom the Highway Villian kills rail transit, note the wall map of the Pacific Electric Interurban RY. in the background.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteThese things are an insult to the intelligence of every citizen they pass, and an embarrassment to those of us who hear fellow citizens bragging that "WE HAVE TROLLEYS". NO WE DON'T!
Evidently the people who ride what you call a "PCT" from downtown to the Beaches don't seem to mind. Same for the Beaches.
Ock, when did JTA say that the PCT was going to bring economic prosperity? I dont remember them saying that. Also, I do not believe JTA is selling this PCT as a "test" for streetcar. We all want streetcars, but for crying out loud.....we can't go out and build them tomorrow. Something is better than nothing. The day we actually have "real" streetcars along Main St will be a great one!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2052/2418283362_8848b63767.jpg)
Potato Chip Truck.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2024/2083978910_5aabdc5cec.jpg)
Potato Chip Truck - with different body and paint.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2933364326_ed9430e502.jpg)
Vintage Trolley. Any questions?Quote from: fsujax on April 28, 2009, 11:32:13 AM
Ock, when did JTA say that the PCT was going to bring economic prosperity? I dont remember them saying that. Also, I do not believe JTA is selling this PCT as a "test" for streetcar. We all want streetcars, but for crying out loud.....we can't go out and build them tomorrow. Something is better than nothing. The day we actually have "real" streetcars along Main St will be a great one!
They didn't, and I didn't say JTA claimed those things. In fact I KNOW that THEY KNOW better. They have read the same material as I have that proved PCT's do NOTHING to "show the way for rail". The ones who are all gah gah over these toy trucks are the folks from SPAR and SAMBA. I want to make sure my big mouth is on record to point out the flaws in their arguments. I really hope it doesn't come to an "I told you so," moment, but I rather think it will. My post was in no way against JTA's effort. OCKLAWAHA
Regarding the streetcar, where do those plans now stand? Are we waiting for federal funding to pay for additional studies? Now would be a great time to make an effort to lobby council to modify the BJP funds to be used for transit improvements other than ROW purchasing. If no effort is made, soon its going to come down to a use it or lose it situation with that money being switched to help fund something else.
Back to the Springfield PCT, the Beaches Trolley was deemed a success with an average of 3,300 riders per weekend. What number is JTA shooting for with the Springfield Trolley and has there been any consideration to feed the PCT through coordinated connections with regular bus routes.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 28, 2009, 11:50:15 AM
They didn't, and I didn't say JTA claimed those things. In fact I KNOW that THEY KNOW better. They have read the same material as I have that proved PCT's do NOTHING to "show the way for rail". The ones who are all gah gah over these toy trucks are the folks from SPAR and SAMBA. I want to make sure my big mouth is on record to point out the flaws in their arguments. I really hope it doesn't come to an "I told you so," moment, but I rather think it will. My post was in no way against JTA's effort.
Ock, I'm on the SAMBA board and I can assure you that no one with SAMBA has attempted to compare the two in my presence. However, there has been some confusion within the community, in regards to what the PCT will ultimately bring to the table. I try to squash the inaccurate talk whenever I come across it.
It may be a byproduct of Jax being behind the times and most being limited in their understanding of mass transit. Heck, our paper still confuses light and commuter rail. Plus we still have people in this forum who attempt to compare heavy rail with the skyway and streetcars despite the site constantly running articles on rail.
Good to hear you've poured some ice water on the argument at SAMBA, I heard several talking about it the day we were there (3 layers) and I couldn't believe it.
Maybe it's time for another PHOTO feature on WHAT IS WHAT. The EAST COAST CORRIDOR web site from SE Florida has a decent page on this, but a look at the National Transit Database, USDOT or FTA, shows that their bus speeds are pure fiction. Another BRT sale??
OCKLAWAHA
Yes, it is time we start running through our older articles again. Those that have been with us since the early days understand the difference, but newcomers may not 100%.
Maybe we can get back to the basics of the site....rather than politics and bashing First Baptist...that would be a good thing.
I'm on the SPAR board and we might have talked about the trolley busses at one meeting when Lakelander came to speak. SPAR, as far as I know is not trying to push this and I don't think most people in Springfield even know about the busses. I think most people don't care one way or another. Personally I couldn't care less if I ever saw another bus of any kind. Ock I feel your pain as I have fought other issues in this city to no avail. I'm to the point now that I don't want to waste another minute trying to reach people who just don't and won't get it.
Well, I think JTA would be doing some public outreach before any service is started. If there is a big cry from the community that you do not want the trolley's then I am sure JTA will not force them on the neighborhood. Then we can wait 8-20 years for a streetcar.
As I said on the SPAR forum last week, ultimately, the PCT vs. rail argument should not matter. They are two completely different animals. We should be able to push for better bus (I include the PCT in this category) service and the implementation of rail, as short and long term options for the urban core. If we can get creative with resources already in hand, we should be able enjoy both in less than five years.
Quote from: Springfield Girl on April 28, 2009, 04:23:31 PM
I'm on the SPAR board and we might have talked about the trolley busses at one meeting when Lakelander came to speak. SPAR, as far as I know is not trying to push this and I don't think most people in Springfield even know about the busses. I think most people don't care one way or another. Personally I couldn't care less if I ever saw another bus of any kind. Ock I feel your pain as I have fought other issues in this city to no avail. I'm to the point now that I don't want to waste another minute trying to reach people who just don't and won't get it.
Thanks my friend. I think even Jaxons get the difference once it's explained, or to quote the evil SARRIS from GALAXY QUEST... "Explain it as you would to a child..." It's an uphill battle because the stupid trucks are branded as "Trolleys" and sold as such. Someone should challenge the deception in a Court of Law. I've been a Jaxson a lot longer then you have my Hip friend, and truly understand your words - but don't you think it's more of a monster of our own choosing? POLITICS? ...and the dummy's that run this place with OUR VOTES!
To those who don't understand what we are discussing let me try to explain the difference, but you'll have to play along, so put on the old thinking cap.
EXAMPLE: You are flying down I-95 on an excursion, no particular destination in mind but a few places you want to see. No timetable, vacation, camera and a pocket full of fun money... Are ya with me? As you crest a hill North of Jacksonville, you see a huge digital sign, today only, The WHOLE Jaguar team is here, get you photo today, this is a don't miss event at Che's Citgo, NEXT EXIT. (If you don't like the Jags, put your favorite sports team there). Your heart rate climbs, you check the camera and pull off at Che's. All across the front of the little Citgo Station are cardboard cutouts that only Look something like your team... They didn't even get the uniforms right! Do you stop? Will you visit? How much is Che going to make off of you? NOT! In fact you'll probably not fill up the tank, you'll pull across the street because Che might be selling watered down gas! It's a LIE! Deception! It insults your intelligence, and in just a moment your hopping mad that you were so easily fooled.
Another Example: You finally hit the big time in the Florida Lottery, MILLIONS of bucks. You decide to go out and buy a private Jet, a private railway car, and a Rolls Royce. A broker makes the perfect deal for you, only to find out your Jet is a 1946 Taylor Craft, You bought a railroad Tank Car, and your Rolls is a Chevy with a hell of a lot of paper mache.
Don't offer me a ride for a buck or even free and tell me it's on a Trolley, when I can plainly see you are deceiving me. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Quote from: fsujax on April 28, 2009, 04:35:01 PM
Well, I think JTA would be doing some public outreach before any service is started. If there is a big cry from the community that you do not want the trolley's then I am sure JTA will not force them on the neighborhood. Then we can wait 8-20 years for a streetcar.
(http://www.sor.cz/site/gallery/items/gallery-2/nb-12-01.jpg)
FACT: FSU, I would really love to be in charge of the "TROLLEYS" in our city. (MR. BLAYLOCK ARE YOU WATHCING? DAMN! I'LL DO IT FOR FREE). As soon as their useful life is up, or in the event we could sell them, We would introduce a TRUE shuttle bus with low floors that would be ideal for wheel chairs or beach bums.
As for the streetcar, if we have to wait 8-20 years we are certified BRAIN DEAD, and will remain a 2ND tier or even 3RD forever. The inability to keep the populace mobile through good times or bad is a key ingredient of a first rate city. We cannot allow this Streetcar project to be stillborn when we are sitting on $100 Million of our own money for Mass Transit.
A vintage Streetcar line from 5 Points to Jacksonville Terminal to Water Street to the Hyatt to the stadium would glow here like a string of pearls. OCKLAWAHA
I don't think most people really care if it's a truck or a "genuine" trolley. People aren't going to want to pile into springfield and downtown to go sightseeing via rail. I know I could go without either in the area because bus service is already plenty regular. I used to ride the phoenix all the time and the only time it was delayed was for wheelchair users. It's already annoying enough to be stuck behind a bus on those patches of 8th that are blocked with medians.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/fla_tiger/NO-GD/large_car.jpg)
YEP! People do care. This is opening day for a new section of the rebuilding New Orleans system.
Quote from: thekillingwax on April 28, 2009, 06:43:30 PM
I don't think most people really care if it's a truck or a "genuine" trolley. People aren't going to want to pile into springfield and downtown to go sightseeing via rail.
Sorry but national numbers from the Federal Transit Administration, USDOT or National Transit Database say that you are incorrect. People LOVE Streetcars everywhere they go. In addition every city that has installed streetcar has experienced a building boom that AVERAGES $1,200 dollars of new development for every dollar invested.
Ridership on streetcars is typically 2 - 3 times the BEST ridership of any given bus route. Buses cost about .80 cents per passenger mile to operate and streetcars are exactly half of that at .40 cents PPM. QuoteI know I could go without either in the area because bus service is already plenty regular.
JTA buses operate on a typical 30 / 45 or Hourly headway, which is so poor that most large transit agency's or planners don't even consider it "Service" rather it is more of a "basic accommodation." If we install streetcars because of it's long term economy's, an old slogan could be revived: "Always a Car In Sight." QuoteI used to ride the phoenix all the time and the only time it was delayed was for wheelchair users. It's already annoying enough to be stuck behind a bus on those patches of 8Th that are blocked with medians.
The original "Phoenix" was a streetcar on the Jacksonville Traction Company lines. It was so successful that it continued long after the demise of the tracks. Ridership tanked when JTCO and other companies like them were bought out and converted to buses.
As for Handicap Access and Median Delays? Handicap access is required by law and this new JTA route is apparently being planned to connect a hospital with patient housing and downtown connections. Medians, really have nothing to do with streetcars, however they CAN and I think probably should operate in grass medians. Being more flexible, the streetcars can also mix in with vehicles on the road, or follow an old railroad track across town. OCKLAWAHA
Ocklawaha
What do you think about running tracks down Hubbard do to the traffic on main.
Quote from: samiam on April 28, 2009, 07:43:32 PM
Ocklawaha
What do you think about running tracks down Hubbard do to the traffic on main.
Hello Samiam, we've even toyed with that idea here at MJ, Lakelander, Lunican and Stephendare even put it on a few maps. The general feeling was it would never pass review with the neighbors along the street. Streetcars are no louder then the Skyway, with an occasional low volume wheel or rail screech.
We finally concluded that the City could take it right down the middle of the grassy medians they just put in. Rather then trash all the work they have just done, we would probably use about 80-90%. I see some curb cuts, and trees being exchanged for grass, palms, shrubs and trolley poles. Since streetcars are double sided (entry's on both sides) it would be a snap to have a single track line with a passing track at each stop. If the cars always stay to the right, the track to the left goes to the oncoming car. A second after it pulls out, the LEFT HAND doors open and the passenger alights on a paved platform with a now empty railroad track running through it. Passenger safe, streetcar safe, and most of the median unharmed. Plus we get a little of our own history back. OCKLAWAHA
So the long running goal for a rail trolley system is to bring back the history. What about the history you will destroy to put down rails? Is SPAR looking for the same historic designation that the RAP folks enjoy? Why not tear up Edgewood Avenue, or St. Johns Avenue and do more damage than the City Public works have already done to St. Johns Avenue near the new S-curve? Perhaps we should lay down some new rails before we have the Avondale shoppes renovation begin in 2010?
Tear out the new angled parking in Murray Hill and replace it with a rail line. Tear out the improvements at King and Park, put in rail. Tear out the improvements made with Park street at 5-points, remove all that parking for the rail trolleys. We need that history in the neighborhood, progress be darned!
Where was all the chest thumping when the City tore up Hendricks Avenue to find the old timbers paved over? Were there rails in there as well? Had someone forgot to check before enacting progress downtown? Who is up for new rails placed in San Marco, all for the sake of History. Sorry Mr. Lion, we have to move you, because you sit in the middle of our rail path down Atlantic Blvd. Tear out the trees that line the medians, and forsake traffic that chokes along San Marco, for a rail line, when a POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY will do just fine, take up less room, and it is actually funded by the gasoline we all purchase every day.
Forget the fact that the City has no plans, no money, no desire for rail trolleys, but they have spent their funds and resources on the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY Line, and this apparently does not sit well with the history buffs who believe that History shall rule the day, yet again, budgets be darned, lies be cast, they are right and every elected official who had hard choices to make about public transportation is wrong.
At least with the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS we have a chance to turn them into CNG or NG units. Maybe not today, but that day will come sooner rather than later. We can keep the trees, our progress, and our funding sources for public transportation, without sacrificing the progress that has been made in the urban parts of the city.
Just come and try and tear out the trees along Edgewood, I dare you!
For me it is not about history it is the fact that fixed rail (I like heritage streetcar) spurs economic development, enhances quality of life and represents the type of investment in your community shows you value where you live.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2064360004_64bde7a439.jpg)
Jacksonville Traction Company, S&W Turtleback Car on the Riverside Line, and NOTE it's NOT on a street, most of our system used side of the road, railroad or median running. ROFLMAO! Man you should get your own TV show or talk radio program and do a comedy hour! Your good. Quote from: mtraininjax on April 28, 2009, 11:00:10 PM
So the long running goal for a rail trolley system is to bring back the history. What about the history you will destroy to put down rails? Is SPAR looking for the same historic designation that the RAP folks enjoy? Why not tear up Edgewood Avenue, or St. Johns Avenue and do more damage than the City Public works have already done to St. Johns Avenue near the new S-curve? Perhaps we should lay down some new rails before we have the Avondale shoppes renovation begin in 2010?
Uh? Earth to MTraininJax, The "S" curves on St. Johns and Avondale NEVER had streetcar tracks on them. The line to Ortega went down Oak to King to St. Johns to Aberdeen to Herschel to Grand to Baltic.QuoteTear out the new angled parking in Murray Hill and replace it with a rail line. Tear out the improvements at King and Park, put in rail. Tear out the improvements made with Park street at 5-points, remove all that parking for the rail trolleys. We need that history in the neighborhood, progress be darned!
The Edgewood/Murray Hill Line used the wide right-of-way west of the CSX tracks (in the grass) from College to Edgewood (where it ended). So rebuild the original and we don't tear up a single historic or progressive new thing. NOTE: I also believe the original quote you were looking for was not "Progress be darned!" rather "The Public be Damned!" This was spoken by the President of the New York Central Railroad, Comodore Vanderbilt, upon receiving the bill for his new passenger trains. QuoteWhere was all the chest thumping when the City tore up Hendricks Avenue to find the old timbers paved over? Were there rails in there as well? Had someone forgot to check before enacting progress downtown? Who is up for new rails placed in San Marco, all for the sake of History. Sorry Mr. Lion, we have to move you, because you sit in the middle of our rail path down Atlantic Blvd. Tear out the trees that line the medians, and forsake traffic that chokes along San Marco, for a rail line, when a POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY will do just fine, take up less room, and it is actually funded by the gasoline we all purchase every day.
Sorry again MTraininJax, but South Jacksonville had it's own streetcars on 3 routes. The South Jacksonville Municipal Railways. Starting at the center of the Acosta Bridge, the line went to Prudential to Hendricks to Atlantic. Atlantic had it's own line from San Marco Village to Saint Nicholas at Kings Road. San Jose had an extension that was side of the road South beyond where it splits with Hendricks and all the way to where it rejoins Hendricks, at this point it made a short circle on a balloon track. No one has proposed putting the Cars back in San Marco or South Jacksonville because of the railroad crossings. However the Skyway is already positioned to move south to the FEC then follow the railroad right-of-way to Atlantic. There might have been rails in Hendricks, a good deal of them are still around town but it's spotty as the "Motor Transit Company" wanted them gone, a franchise requirement was made that they be removed (in 1932) and the last cars ran in Dec. 1936. WWII scrap drives probably claimed most of the easy to find rails, though there were still a good many visible in the late 1950's and early 60's, mostly around Edison and the new BIG I interchange. So no worries for San Marco. QuoteForget the fact that the City has no plans, no money, no desire for rail trolleys, but they have spent their funds and resources on the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEY Line, and this apparently does not sit well with the history buffs who believe that History shall rule the day, yet again, budgets be darned, lies be cast, they are right and every elected official who had hard choices to make about public transportation is wrong.
Wrong? REALLY? I'm only singing your tune on the PCT Trolleys. WHY DID WE SPEND A MINT ON THESE STUPID LOOKING THINGS WHEN A CHEAPER AND PURPOSE BUILT SHUTTLE BUS WAS AVAILABLE OFF THE SHELF. Add to that the delusional "TROLLEY" concept and it's a pretty petty operation. Also, this history buff is a professional railroad transit guy so I think my telling some politician he or she is wrong is my duty as a good citizen. QuoteAt least with the POTATO CHIP TRUCK TROLLEYS we have a chance to turn them into CNG or NG units. Maybe not today, but that day will come sooner rather than later. We can keep the trees, our progress, and our funding sources for public transportation, without sacrificing the progress that has been made in the urban parts of the city.
Again, a streetcar could be powered with CNG, LNG, Methane, hydro-power, wind power, battery power, hydrogen power, induction power or just plain old diesel gen sets running off of "GATE DIESEL FUEL". QuoteJust come and try and tear out the trees along Edgewood, I dare you!
The trees are there MTraininJax because the streetcars NEVER used more then 100' of Edgewood, and that was a simple platform in the middle of the Murray Hill shopping area. The Murray Hill line ran from Bay to Myrtle to Edison to Dellwood to Stockton? to College to private right-of-way and ended at Edgewood. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, you're a bit late to this thread, and I do hope someone goes back to the old threads and can find where the claim was made that PCTs or busses will bring economic growth to Springfield.
I know JTA made the mistake of claiming BRT would bring economic development along its routes (and may still be making this claim for all I know). But I don't think anyone from Springfield, SPAR, or SAMBA has indicated PCT or busses will bring any assured amount of economic development, or made a comparison with the economic development probable around fixed transit. If someone can find these claims in earlier posts/threads, then your point is made (again). If not, how about the maligning of these groups for positions not taken stop?
In my reading of this thread, the discussion is not "Which will spur more economic growth, PCT or fixed rail?" as this has been settled. It's not even which is "better" as I believe most in Springfield - yes, even including the folks at orgs you mention (Springfield Girl and Lakelander, for example) - agree the ultimate solution would be fixed.
So it seems there is no real argument at all, other than the all or nothing one. Do Springfielders want nothing for the next 5-8 years while waiting for JTA to get its streetcar act together (under pressure from Ock and others at metrojacksonville.com - thank you!), or do Springfielders want a less-stigmatized, more community-compatible way to connect with downtown in the shorter-term, and still hope to get streetcar someday?
I'm for the cake-and-eat-it-too option, or if they go with the Lay's design, the chips-and-eat-it-too...
The economic development comparison issue, between the two, was raised at the SPAR Board meeting I spoke at back in late January. The threads on this site and on SPAR's forum are a direct result of that discussion from people in attendance that night. At that meeting a question and argument was made attempting to directly compare the two, in terms of cost, timeline and benefits to Springfield's commercial corridor (3rd & Main specifically).
The "all or nothing" stance may be one of the largest reasons this debate keeps popping up. Its sort of like JTA calling what should be regular bus service through the Northside, "BRT", and wondering why people get upset at their plans. Public relations and how transit improvements are presented and sold the the community may be the reason for continued opposition on projects like this. Proponents need to repackage how these improvements are presented to the community.
This Springfield PCT thing should be looked at, as improving already running existing bus service in the area. Because at the end of the day, that's what it really is. The plan basically creates a bus line that runs directly from Shands to DT. However, instead of using a regular bus or an electric bus, the chosen rubber wheeled mode is a PCT.
If I were to select a vehicle for this route, I'd shoot for an electric shuttle bus (see image below) because PCTs blow just as much dust and diesel exhaust on the pedestrian as the regular JTA buses (excluding the new ones) do. If we want something to be compatible with a walkable environment along our commercial corridors, going electric or hybrid/electric would be worth considering. I don't know how much they cost vs. the PCT, but quite a few transit agencies across the country are purchasing them with federal stimulus dollars. Perhaps there may be an opportunity for JTA to do the same?
Anyway, the "all or nothing" or "PCT now or wait 20 years for real streetcar" are comparison arguments between two modes of transit that have nothing to do with each other in terms of goals, investment, image or generating ridership. Jacksonville is a very transit ignorant community. Terms mentioned above can do us all harm by continuing to cloud the differences between modes that should all play a role in the creation of an integrated regional mass transit system. So my advice, which is an opinion just like everyone else's here, would be to repackage the way the PCT plan is being sold and advocated to the community. Because there are benefits to enhancing bus service between major urban core destinations, neighborhoods and commercial corridors. Unfortunately, that discussion is not taking place like it should, because the comparison between the PCT and fixed rail keep popping up.
Downtown Chattanooga Electric Shuttle
(http://www.magazinusa.com/images_st2/tn/Chattanooga/chattanooga-electric-shuttle.jpg)
Downtown Chattanooga Electric Shuttle bus typical stop
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3303-p1060461.JPG)
Anyway, I have a few more questions about this plan that should help get the discussion back on track.
1. Where will the stops be located?
2. What is the ultimate goal?
3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT? If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes?
4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned. What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community?
5. Will this system rely only on Springfield, DT and Shands for ridership? Or will it be integrated with other bus lines to ensure decent ridership numbers?
6. Will this be a temporary demonstration project or something set up to stay long term?
Thanks Lake, that was a great follow-up piece.Quote from: zoo on April 29, 2009, 08:34:25 AM
Ock, you're a bit late to this thread, and I do hope someone goes back to the old threads and can find where the claim was made that PCTs or busses will bring economic growth to Springfield.
Believe it or not, TheLakelander, Stephendare, Lunican, Springfield Girl and myself have all heard people in Springfield all giddy about "We're getting trolleys!" Lakelander and yours truly have spoken to the subject over and over. Fact is we've all heard it from certain folks in Springfield, SPAR and as I said to Lakelander, I heard a couple of guys at Samba trying to explain to me just how cool the new "PCT'S" will be. It certainly doesn't malign any of these groups just because they DON'T understand the core of the argument. I recently had a friendly discussion with one of the stars of San Marco (the book store) who informed me "We already had a JTA trolley, but it was no good because it couldn't cross the tracks when a train was around so nobody could depend on it for lunch hour trips... We Don't need Trolleys!" Try as I might, this person is typical of Jaxon's everywhere, they just don't get it, and in many cases they refuse to try.QuoteBut I don't think anyone from Springfield, SPAR, or SAMBA has indicated PCT or busses will bring any assured amount of economic development, or made a comparison with the economic development probable around fixed transit. If someone can find these claims in earlier posts/threads, then your point is made (again). If not, how about the maligning of these groups for positions not taken stop?
In my reading of this thread, the discussion is not "Which will spur more economic growth, PCT or fixed rail?" as this has been settled. It's not even which is "better" as I believe most in Springfield - yes, even including the folks at orgs you mention (Springfield Girl and Lakelander, for example) - agree the ultimate solution would be fixed.
No, the argument is what can we do now, today, to make a transport between Shands and the new Condos on Main as well as downtown work. My argument is the PCT is not the vehicle for this. While they are equipped with kneeling abilities, the high entry and multilevel floor isn't suited to hospital shuttles... So send Em to the Beach and get a REAL low floor, multi-entry bus. QuoteSo it seems there is no real argument at all, other than the all or nothing one. Do Springfielders want nothing for the next 5-8 years while waiting for JTA to get its streetcar act together (under pressure from Ock and others at metrojacksonville.com - thank you!), or do Springfielders want a less-stigmatized, more community-compatible way to connect with downtown in the shorter-term, and still hope to get streetcar someday?
Not 5 or 6 years, but tomorrow it is possible to have smooth, quiet, low floor, electric buses on this route. The current new Gillig buses JTA drives are pollution efficient, even so, they pollute at a rate equal to 65 automobiles. Chattanooga uses a splendid little electric bus fleet and it is being used by a couple of major universities to constantly improve this option. Did you know that UNF is "America's Transportation University?" "A program of EXCELLENCE."
The typical PCT, anywhere in America, starts out strong, then when the honeymoon is over, their numbers crash. Springfield has the residential density for bus or rail (of any kind), I hope JTA gets the support it's going to need to validate this route, but aside from "bridge traffic" (Bridge Traffic = traffic not to or from any point on the line but moving over the line between the end points - usually forwarded from other routes). I don't see a bright future along Main or 8Th until TRUE vintage streetcar brings the new developments in. QuoteI'm for the cake-and-eat-it-too option, or if they go with the Lay's design, the chips-and-eat-it-too...
PCT'S have your chips and eat them too? Love it! Can we use this in our next JTA meeting? OCKLAWAHA
Who knows maybe JTA will try a new technology for the Springfield service.
QuoteI don't see a bright future along Main or 8Th until TRUE vintage streetcar brings the new developments in.
So basically, you're saying that the only way this area is going to be revitalized is if there is a "TRUE" vintage streetcar?
While eating at Waffa & Mikes last night on the courtyard, Main felt like a completely different place. We were having a good time outside, Shanytown's courtyard had people enjoying themselves next door and the loft across the street was lite up, as the new tenant was preparing to open his upscale salon in the space. Being in that environment you could really feel the potential of Main being a true urban destination.
I agree with Ock that a "true" streetcar line with help take development to the next level. I would describe the "next level" as compact new construction infill development. However, in the meantime, with a little coordination and embracing what's already there, there is no reason Main's bright future can't become reality immediately.
I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.
However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.
The only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.
My next comments are not directed at Ock and Lake in a personal way. They are directed at the many other persons I encounter regularly in advocating for Springfield that think they have a right to determine what is best for the community, from social service providers, to Councilmembers, city/transit planners, to regional planning/architectural organizations and professional groups, to persons responsible for economic development in Jacksonville, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion about what is best for Springfield.
Well, I live here, and work here, and am here every day for much of the day, and I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here. I may not know what is best for it, so I'm happy to hear and entertain opinions, and do a fair amount of research and investigation on my own. But in the end, I and other Springfield residents have more of a right to an opinion than someone living in St. Johns county, or Southside, or the Beaches, or Tallullah, or San Jose.
Here's my shot at answering some of Lake's questions:
Anyway, I have a few more questions about this plan that should help get the discussion back on track.
1. Where will the stops be located? I don't think JTA has determined this yet, and will wait until the FDOT grant is approved before getting community input?
2. What is the ultimate goal? To move residents to downtown and to different ends of commercial areas; to move FCCJ, church and downtown workplace to new Springfield commercial; to move Proton Beam patients to and from their temporary housing to the Proton facility, and to move anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason, except to "sleep it off" in air conditioning. BTW, Ock, don't know if your low-floor issue is the result of the presumed Proton Beam focus, but the proton treatment means patients don't have special transportation accessibility, or dietary, needs.
3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT? If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.
4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned. What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.
5. Will this system rely only on Springfield, DT and Shands for ridership? Or will it be integrated with other bus lines to ensure decent ridership numbers? I believe JTA's plans for this route do include modifying some of the existing bus routes that use the Main St. corridor between 1st and 8th (it seemed there were quite a few other routes using that stretch last time I checked). This will not be fully determined at the time of FDOT grant submission.
6. Will this be a temporary demonstration project or something set up to stay long term? Depends on ridership and funding. The initial project is a 2-year project. If it can be funded twice, that ought to be just about enough time for the streetcar route to be investigated, planned and maybe kicked off/implemented.
Residents, speak up!!!
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6378-streetcar_lofts_sp8254.jpg)
The Streetcar Lofts in Portland are just a tiny part of 5 Billion dollars worth of new investment along the line.
I was here in 1980 and the "next big boom" was going to be Springfield. Ditto for 1990 and now, 2009 we're still waiting. Certainly the neighborhood has a great fabric and a much higher income then it did back in the day, but San Marco or Riverside it is not. At least not yet. Some of this fault can be laid at the city's feet. The near cleansing of Main of every attraction, shop or restaurant. Busting every business that makes an attempt at party time - bet this wouldn't happen in Epping Forrest or Queens Harbour.
As you can see, I'm not against Springfield, as a Jaxon Cracker, this is home and I love all of it and have lived in most of it! IE: Ortega, Ortega Hills, Orange Park, Grand Crossing, Dunn Ave, Callahan, Mandarin, Arlington, Intercoastal, Regency... and may be buying a new place in World Golf Village! So not to speak poorly of Springfield, please understand that I think with so much of the business strip owned by absent lazie faire land Barron's, it is going to take something big to jolt Springfield to life. I'm not talking about the everyday life such as Wafaa's and Mikes, or the VA clinic, I'm talking about a full blown remake in the image of 1919. To do this the only tool (besides Disney or NASA moving to Springfield) that I can think of is my beloved true - Vintage -Streetcar. I would even compliment this with connector buses that are being made now, that are doubles of the early 1920's buses. This would cause a storm of new investment and a community remake.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteAt least not yet. Some of this fault can be laid at the city's feet.
It's not San Marco or Riverside, and I don't think any resident wants it to be.
Just because Springfield aims to be a community with a sense of place based on historic framework, doesn't mean it wants to be Riverside. There's already a Riverside, and for that matter a St. Augustine, and a Savannah, and a Charleston. There are some things Springfield can do like these great historic places - contextually appropriate transit, for example - and some things it will have to do differently.
Fault in the past is irrelevant and over. Fault forward falls on those who
keep focusing on the negative when saying what they think Springfield is (in many, but not all, cases erroneously), and on those who
say what Springfield isn't while making little attempt short of wishing on fairy dust to change it at the street level.
Optimism, action and money -- that's my wish on fairy dust...
Quote from: zoo on April 29, 2009, 02:38:53 PM
I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.
However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.
Economic/tourism asset through a faux trolley? Please explain so I can better understand your vision?
QuoteThe only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.
This statement in general raises a good question. What is Springfield trying to become? Is the things mentioned above your opinion or a general consensus of residents living in the neighborhood? Like you, I'd really like to hear what other Springfield residents have to say on this issue. Knowing what the community desires will help with the development and marketing of the final project.
As for investing and living in the community, personally, I don't live there (not because of peference, I'm just stuck with an unsalable Southside condo right now) but I am a property owner who has just as much money and time invested in the area as any typical person invested or living in Springfield. If things work out in the future, I could also end up living on my property in Springfield. Also, what happens on Main directly impacts the retail and living possibilities of my future spaces and my existing tenant. Because of this, I'd say this is just as important to me as someone who may live in the neighborhood.
QuoteMy next comments are not directed at Ock and Lake in a personal way. They are directed at the many other persons I encounter regularly in advocating for Springfield that think they have a right to determine what is best for the community, from social service providers, to Councilmembers, city/transit planners, to regional planning/architectural organizations and professional groups, to persons responsible for economic development in Jacksonville, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion about what is best for Springfield.
Well, I live here, and work here, and am here every day for much of the day, and I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here. I may not know what is best for it, so I'm happy to hear and entertain opinions, and do a fair amount of research and investigation on my own. But in the end, I and other Springfield residents have more of a right to an opinion than someone living in St. Johns county, or Southside, or the Beaches, or Tallullah, or San Jose.
See my answer above. I'm just as invested in Springfield as the typical resident. If this means getting involved in the planning and design process (my educational background), to make sure all pros and cons are properly evaluated then so be it. After all, we all want something thats going to work as a final product, regardless of individual opinions on what that product should be. Imo, it would be hypocritical for me not to participate in the discussion of something that can help the community when its an issue I specialize in for a living. This is nothing personal, its just reality regardless of any individual's personal opinion. Also, don't take what anyone says as the Bible. Look it up, challenge it and provide examples of other options if there is something you may not agree with. Back and forth dialouge is a typical process that all projects should go through in the planning stages. Having community dialouge is a great thing that no one should get sick about. It helps ensure successful implementation of the final product.
Quote2. What is the ultimate goal? To move residents to downtown and to different ends of commercial areas; to move FCCJ, church and downtown workplace to new Springfield commercial; to move Proton Beam patients to and from their temporary housing to the Proton facility, and to move anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason, except to "sleep it off" in air conditioning. BTW, Ock, don't know if your low-floor issue is the result of the presumed Proton Beam focus, but the proton treatment means patients don't have special transportation accessibility, or dietary, needs.
Hopefully we can add existing business community and other Shands facilities to the mix. The more the merrier, in terms of transit ridership. If other Shands facilities come into play, Ock's low-floor issue may be worth taking a deeper look into.
Quote3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT? If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.
This is something worth hashing out with further discussion. Studying existing examples across the country may reveal some insight that we may all be overlooking.
Quote4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned. What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.
To be honest, it may be too early in the game to ask or expect funding from the existing business community on conceptual idea not fully hatched out. Most of our small businesses are struggling to stay afloat and SAMBA is an organization with limited resources and manpower at the moment. However, as a plan becomes better organized and promoted, if business owners can see a financial benefit for them in the product, anything is possible. A good example of this is in Detroit, where the business community is funding a +3 mile starter light rail line 100% between Downtown and New Center. With local cooperation the 8-20 years for rail, fsujax mentioned earlier in this thread, just got slashed to 2 or 3 because they don't immediately need FTA funding. A little creativity and dialouge in this process could result in better transit (both bus and rail) becoming a quicker reality in Jax as well.
QuoteResidents, speak up!!!
I agree. Anyone else should speak up too. Springfield can't isolate itself from the rest of the community and expect to support things like this on its own. If you work in DT, Shands, own property, a business in the area, purchase goods or use services in the area, bike, ride mass transit or whatever, all dialouge should be considered as valuable during the planning process.
Quote from: zoo on April 29, 2009, 02:38:53 PM
I very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.
However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.
The only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.
Because Springfield is a National Historic District would they allow me to create a new front to my house out of Cheap Plywood, and Rubber, as long as it kind of - sort of - looked like a funky historic front? What about metal sheeting? What about painting the side to "look like" it has windows? Doors?
This is what everyone in Springfield is getting with the PCT. Cheap Plywood, Rubber Tires, metal sheeting and Paint... Folks it's JUST ANOTHER BUS, but the worse part is since it IS REALLY built on a potato chip truck frame and engine, it rides more like a Turnip Wagon then a real bus. I just don't see the "FIT" with Springfield, it's almost as bad as building a super modern MC Donalds at the corner of 4Th and Walnut, or 6Th and Silver. These things are very poor copies of the real streetcars and anyone who has been on both will walk away from your newly promoted "attraction" with the taste of CHEAP still fresh in their mouths. Ever eat at a McDonalds? Ruths Chris? They are both restaurants but to say they are both fine restaurants would be a lie.
The following is the results of surveys in the NYC Transit system, using a host of different low floor models:QuotePREFERENCE FOR SPECIFIC BUS FEATURES
For each pair, which item would you prefer?
Forward-facing seats 80%
Side-facing seats 17%
Large Window Size 68%
Conventional Window Size 30%
Windows that slide open 72%
Windows that flip down at top 25%
Wheel chair ramp 75%
Wheel chair lift 22%
Wheel chair ramp in rear door 63%
Wheel chair ramp in front door 33%
1 rear door near middle of bus 83%
1 rear door at very back of bus 15%
(http://cordis.europa.eu/cost-transport/icons/cost-322.jpg)
If we really want Springfield to get bus service on a dedicated route, stay away from the poor ride quality of the PCT and let's try and get JTA to embrace the newest things in the bus industry, Low Floor, walk in buses. Even if not for the Proton Folks, the Low Floors should be on every route that serves a medical center. OCKLAWAHA
QuoteBecause Springfield is a National Historic District would they allow me to create a new front to my house out of Cheap Plywood, and Rubber, as long as it kind of - sort of - looked like a funky historic front? What about metal sheeting? What about painting the side to "look like" it has windows? Doors?
I don't mean to get you going Mr. Trolley Monster (Ock), but are you describing something like this?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/513346287_5FfKL-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/513346364_4iNAP-M.jpg)
The Historic Commission would tar and feather you.
I would suggest that if any citizen of Jacksonville wants real, steel on steel streetcars they go to a city council meeting and demand the Jacksonville City Council allow JTA to use the money set aside in BJP for rapid transit ROW purchase to be spent on other things like building a streetcar line.
You got it Lake, only none of them have the big gold letters on the side that say "HOUSE" so everyone will know what the hell they are supposed to be. We don't paint "BUS" on the side of the JTA vehicles, presumably because we all know what a bus is supposed to look like. We don't paint "HOUSE" on the side because we should be able to figure it out ourselves... But the PCT? " T R O L L E Y " "Oh THATS what it is supposed to be, it's so cute I'd bet 100,000 tourists would come to see it..." Shine On Team!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: fsujax on April 29, 2009, 04:03:23 PM
I would suggest that if any citizen of Jacksonville wants real, steel on steel streetcars they go to a city council meeting and demand the Jacksonville City Council allow JTA to use the money set aside in BJP for rapid transit ROW purchase to be spent on other things like building a streetcar line.
I would second this recommendation!
Quote from: fsujax on April 29, 2009, 04:03:23 PM
I would suggest that if any citizen of Jacksonville wants real, steel on steel streetcars they go to a city council meeting and demand the Jacksonville City Council allow JTA to use the money set aside in BJP for rapid transit ROW purchase to be spent on other things like building a streetcar line.
I'm onboard, I wonder if we could get SPAR, SAMBA and RAP to do the lobby foot work that we haven't covered yet. (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/MainStreetWithCar.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Nice photoshop work, Ock!
Ock, we're going to have to successfully lobby the community to support such a resolution and make sure we have JTA's support, before moving forward with a request to council. The worse thing that could happen is a bill is submitted for the change and JTA or the community objects to the switch.
We've done a decent job over the last few years in creating discussion, but if we want RAP, SPAR, DVI, etc. on board, we need to sell the idea to them first. If we can get them and major corporate players to submit their own resolution letters of support to their council representatives, the argument to change the terminology becomes harder to ignore.
Thanks for keeping us posted. You and Ock have my support and look forward to helping you pursue doing this the right way.
Personally as a Springfield resident I would love to see Ock's photoshop as a reality. I think many have become so frustrated and have just reached the point of "we'll take what we can get".
QuoteI very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.
However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.
Economic/tourism asset through a faux trolley? Please explain so I can better understand your vision? A faux trolley does not create economic/tourism dollars. A sense of place built around a community's unique characteristics does. This is where the look of the vehicle can contribute to, not completely create (so don't try to put those words in my response, please), a sense of place.
QuoteThe only reason anyone is excited about PCT's is because of how they look -- this matters to those who are invested AND live in the community. Is there an electric vehicle that will fit in the historic context of the community? If there isn't, I'll still come down on the side of PCT's, not because they bring superior technical function/service, not because it is the best vehicle for the neighborhood long-term (fixed rail streetcar, right?), not even for the chips, but because they FIT in this "place". And that is what Springfield is trying to become... a community with a fully-developed, and fully-supported, sense of place.
This statement in general raises a good question. What is Springfield trying to become? Is the things mentioned above your opinion or a general consensus of residents living in the neighborhood? Like you, I'd really like to hear what other Springfield residents have to say on this issue. Knowing what the community desires will help with the development and marketing of the final project. These are just my opinion, but are the result of studies.
You guys seem to think you are the only ones who ever had the idea to engage the community in a dialogue!?! There was a series of 3 focus groups conducted in 2006 (2 for residents, 1 for business owners, in which approximately 20 people of various ethnic, age, income, family structure and employment characteristics participated), for the purpose of qualitative analysis of factors of importance to, and the desires of, the community. They were not entirely about transit, but transit questions were included and discussed. The focus groups were followed by a benchmark quantitative survey in Fall of 2006 in which more than 350 hh participated, and a subsequent quantitative survey in 2007, in which approximately 200 hh participated to determine change against benchmark. The same effort was taken to ensure participation, but there were naysayers to the surveys who found them to be too intrusive or a pain in the ass to complete. So residents were asked, and whether or not they wanted to be heard was their choice. These results are projectable to number of hh in the District, and this is why participation in the surveys was stressed.
Sure, Lake and Ock, you know transit better than anyone on this board, but don't spout about personal opinions versus projectable data -- you are not the only persons on this board with useful background and training -- there are many others who live in the community, who are intelligent enough to listen, research, dialogue and draw their own intelligent conclusions.
As for investing and living in the community, personally, I don't live there (not because of peference, I'm just stuck with an unsalable Southside condo right now) but I am a property owner who has just as much money and time invested in the area as any typical person invested or living in Springfield. If things work out in the future, I could also end up living on my property in Springfield. Also, what happens on Main directly impacts the retail and living possibilities of my future spaces and my existing tenant. Because of this, I'd say this is just as important to me as someone who may live in the neighborhood. I know you don't live here, and I suspect you'd make a different choice if economic conditions were different. However, having invested in commercial or rental residential property here, regardless of the value of the property, does not make you equally invested. Residents start their day here, end their day here, and in some cases spend their day here, and have to bear daily the foisted opinions of others who believe their opinions should be given equal weight. That is crap. Until you are beginning and ending your day here, raising your family here, walking your dogs in the park, driving less than one mile to your job or activities downtown because the transit options aren't good, and driving out of the community for services because they aren't here yet, your opinion does not carry as much weight as a resident's, knowledgeable about transit or not, as far as I'm concerned.
QuoteMy next comments are not directed at Ock and Lake in a personal way. They are directed at the many other persons I encounter regularly in advocating for Springfield that think they have a right to determine what is best for the community, from social service providers, to Councilmembers, city/transit planners, to regional planning/architectural organizations and professional groups, to persons responsible for economic development in Jacksonville, and on, and on. Everyone has an opinion about what is best for Springfield.
Well, I live here, and work here, and am here every day for much of the day, and I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here. I may not know what is best for it, so I'm happy to hear and entertain opinions, and do a fair amount of research and investigation on my own. But in the end, I and other Springfield residents have more of a right to an opinion than someone living in St. Johns county, or Southside, or the Beaches, or Tallullah, or San Jose.
See my answer above. I'm just as invested in Springfield as the typical resident. If this means getting involved in the planning and design process (my educational background), to make sure all pros and cons are properly evaluated then so be it. After all, we all want something thats going to work as a final product, regardless of individual opinions on what that product should be. You can lend your professional knowledge and opinion, and I'm one resident who will listen. But in the end, the informed decision I make is mine to make whether it agrees with yours or not, and I believe the opinions of those who have to live daily with the planning decisions being made should have the greatest weight. Imo, it would be hypocritical for me not to participate in the discussion of something that can help the community when its an issue I specialize in for a living. This is nothing personal, its just reality regardless of any individual's personal opinion. Also, don't take what anyone says as the Bible. Look it up, challenge it and provide examples of other options if there is something you may not agree with. Back and forth dialouge is a typical process that all projects should go through in the planning stages. Having community dialouge is a great thing that no one should get sick about. Please re-read my post if you need to. I didn't say I was sick of community dialogue. I have invited it in every bit of advocacy work I have done in Springfield. I find some choose not to give it, except on their own terms, and others will claim they weren't asked if the collective end result doesn't go their way. "I am sick of people who don't live in this community foisting their opinions about what they think is best for it on those living here." It helps ensure successful implementation of the final product. I presume you only believe it to be successful if your professional position is the one acted upon?
Quote2. What is the ultimate goal? To move residents to downtown and to different ends of commercial areas; to move FCCJ, church and downtown workplace to new Springfield commercial; to move Proton Beam patients to and from their temporary housing to the Proton facility, and to move anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason, except to "sleep it off" in air conditioning. BTW, Ock, don't know if your low-floor issue is the result of the presumed Proton Beam focus, but the proton treatment means patients don't have special transportation accessibility, or dietary, needs.
Hopefully we can add existing business community and other Shands facilities to the mix. Consider them included in my commentary where I referenced "downtown workplace" and "anyone else that wants to pay $.50 to get anywhere between the two end points for any reason" -- I apologize if the phrasing I utilized with the most inclusive intent (definitely covering "existing business community") was not inferred that way. The more the merrier, in terms of transit ridership. If other Shands facilities come into play, Ock's low-floor issue may be worth taking a deeper look into.
Quote3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT? If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.
This is something worth hashing out with further discussion. Studying existing examples across the country may reveal some insight that we may all be overlooking. If you or Ock want to be the person to investigate green, low-floored, contextually-appropriate vehicles available for $350k or less on behalf of JTA, I say please do! I believe JTA should have this responsibility, but I find a lot of "we do it this way because this is the way it's always been done" in the municipal agencies here, so an independent effort may be just the needed thing.
Quote4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned. What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.
To be honest, it may be too early in the game to ask or expect funding from the existing business community on conceptual idea not fully hatched out. Most of our small businesses are struggling to stay afloat and SAMBA is an organization with limited resources and manpower at the moment. However, as a plan becomes better organized and promoted, if business owners can see a financial benefit for them in the product, anything is possible. No kidding re: SAMBA businesses funding. There may still be opportunities for them to help promote ridership, with coupons or other promos, when the route is running. Re: anything is possible, you've answered my fairy dust wish for optimism. A good example of this is in Detroit, where the business community is funding a +3 mile starter light rail line 100% between Downtown and New Center. With local cooperation the 8-20 years for rail, fsujax mentioned earlier in this thread, just got slashed to 2 or 3 because they don't immediately need FTA funding. A little creativity and dialouge in this process could result in better transit (both bus and rail) becoming a quicker reality in Jax as well.
QuoteResidents, speak up!!!
I agree. Anyone else should speak up too. Springfield can't isolate itself from the rest of the community and expect to support things like this on its own. If you work in DT, Shands, own property, a business in the area, purchase goods or use services in the area, bike, ride mass transit or whatever, all dialouge should be considered as valuable during the planning process. All dialogue is valuable and good ideas come from anywhere, but that doesn't mean it will all get implemented. In the end a decision will be made, and it is my hope the opinions of persons who will have to live with it, and will use it daily, will have the greatest weight.
QuotePersonally as a Springfield resident I would love to see Ock's photoshop as a reality.
Ditto.
QuoteI think many have become so frustrated and have just reached the point of "we'll take what we can get".
I am frustrated, true. I don't understand why there can't be a short-term AND longer-term solution to the issue of appropriate transit on Main? Money not from the same budgets, and why is replacing/modifying some existing bus transit with a
contextually-appropriate vehicle a problem? Ock obviously feels his corn flakes are being crapped in if it's not a
historically-accurate vehicle, which I'm sure some folks in Springfield can identify with. Sorry, but I don't have a problem with this when it comes to transit vehicles.
My frustration has not resulted in "we'll take what we can get," but rather, "have my chips and eat them too."
Quote from: zoo on April 29, 2009, 04:44:48 PM
QuoteI very much like the idea of electric and no/less dust and fumes.
However, Springfield is a National Historic District. It already has the same designation as Riverside/Avondale. Ultimately, when more restoration is completed, the community might like to be able to promote this and become an economic/tourism asset for the entire city.
Economic/tourism asset through a faux trolley? Please explain so I can better understand your vision? A faux trolley does not create economic/tourism dollars. A sense of place built around a community's unique characteristics does. This is where the look of the vehicle can contribute to, not completely create (so don't try to put those words in my response, please), a sense of place.
I'm not trying to place words in your mouth. I'm just trying to understand your vision. Now I see you believe a faux trolley can help contribute to a "sense of place" in a historic community. Looking at them running through downtown I don't personally agree, but to each his/her own. There's nothing wrong with that.
QuoteYou guys seem to think you are the only ones who ever had the idea to engage the community in a dialogue!?!
Not true, now you're trying to place words and labels on us.
QuoteThere was a series of 3 focus groups conducted in 2006 (2 for residents, 1 for business owners, in which approximately 20 people of various ethnic, age, income, family structure and employment characteristics participated), for the purpose of qualitative analysis of factors of importance to, and the desires of, the community. They were not entirely about transit, but transit questions were included and discussed. The focus groups were followed by a benchmark quantitative survey in Fall of 2006 in which more than 350 hh participated, and a subsequent quantitative survey in 2007, in which approximately 200 hh participated to determine change against benchmark. The same effort was taken to ensure participation, but there were naysayers to the surveys who found them to be too intrusive or a pain in the ass to complete. So residents were asked, and whether or not they wanted to be heard was their choice. These results are projectable to number of hh in the District, and this is why participation in the surveys was stressed.
Can you post a link of the conclusions? Thanks.
QuoteSure, Lake and Ock, you know transit better than anyone on this board, but don't spout about personal opinions versus projectable data -- you are not the only persons on this board with useful background and training -- there are many others who live in the community, who are intelligent enough to listen, research, dialogue and draw their own intelligent conclusions.[/color]
I think we can all see that we are not the only people on this site with background or training. The three of us (you included) just happen to be pretty vocal in this thread. Like you, I hope more chime in on this topic.
QuoteAs for investing and living in the community, personally, I don't live there (not because of peference, I'm just stuck with an unsalable Southside condo right now) but I am a property owner who has just as much money and time invested in the area as any typical person invested or living in Springfield. If things work out in the future, I could also end up living on my property in Springfield. Also, what happens on Main directly impacts the retail and living possibilities of my future spaces and my existing tenant. Because of this, I'd say this is just as important to me as someone who may live in the neighborhood.
I know you don't live here, and I suspect you'd make a different choice if economic conditions were different. However, having invested in commercial or rental residential property here, regardless of the value of the property, does not make you equally invested. Residents start their day here, end their day here, and in some cases spend their day here, and have to bear daily the foisted opinions of others who believe their opinions should be given equal weight. That is crap. Until you are beginning and ending your day here, raising your family here, walking your dogs in the park, driving less than one mile to your job or activities downtown because the transit options aren't good, and driving out of the community for services because they aren't here yet, your opinion does not carry as much weight as a resident's, knowledgeable about transit or not, as far as I'm concerned.
Unless only residents living within the historic district's borders are going to pony their own cash to pay for this 100%, then everyone's opinion should carry some weight. If anything, the most weight should be carried by the end points (ie. Shands and DT). The ability to be attractive to the users of these destinations (most who happen to live outside of the neighborhood) will play a heavier role on the ultimate success of the selected transit corridor.
Quote[/color] It helps ensure successful implementation of the final product. I presume you only believe it to be successful if your professional position is the one acted upon?
You have assumed wrong. For example, I was not a strong streetcar advocate early on. For me it was commuter rail or bust, as far as transit improvements in Jax go. Now after continuous dialouge with many people here, in the community, JTA and political realities, my position has changed. You may not believe it, but I'm pretty open minded when real life factual examples can be presented.
QuoteQuote3. Has there been any discussion between using electric shuttle buses vs. the PCT? If so, what are the pros and cons between the modes? More "green" options have been brought up here and there, but I don't know if they have been investigated recently. Though there is ridership support, but rarely financial support, I suspect one of the cons to electric may be cost -- perhaps JTA can verify this? Another con is stigma and placemaking conflict of just another bus.
This is something worth hashing out with further discussion. Studying existing examples across the country may reveal some insight that we may all be overlooking. If you or Ock want to be the person to investigate green, low-floored, contextually-appropriate vehicles available for $350k or less on behalf of JTA, I say please do! I believe JTA should have this responsibility, but I find a lot of "we do it this way because this is the way it's always been done" in the municipal agencies here, so an independent effort may be just the needed thing.
Considering this whole things is still conceptual in nature, that will probably happen if it hasn't already.
QuoteQuote4. Earlier SAMBA was mentioned. What type of support/marketing promotions are you looking for from the Springfield business community? How about funding? If any of the SAMBA businesses truly believe they are going to see an increase in traffic, then contributing in public-private partnership to make it happen is an investment in future sales. If it's about buying marketing "eyeballs" that can be discussed, but not a single Springfield area business has made a penny commitment to this effort at this time.
To be honest, it may be too early in the game to ask or expect funding from the existing business community on conceptual idea not fully hatched out. Most of our small businesses are struggling to stay afloat and SAMBA is an organization with limited resources and manpower at the moment. However, as a plan becomes better organized and promoted, if business owners can see a financial benefit for them in the product, anything is possible. No kidding re: SAMBA businesses funding. There may still be opportunities for them to help promote ridership, with coupons or other promos, when the route is running. Re: anything is possible, you've answered my fairy dust wish for optimism.
True. This is something that could happen when things get farther along.
QuoteAll dialogue is valuable and good ideas come from anywhere, but that doesn't mean it will all get implemented. In the end a decision will be made, and it is my hope the opinions of persons who will have to live with it, and will use it daily, will have the greatest weight.
That's my hope to as long as reality is accepted. Because reality doesn't care where anyone lives, works or play. It sounds like DT and Shands users need to get involved a little more. They are going to be critical.
I’m one of those people some are saying do not have Springfield’s best interests at heart because I: 1) Have a business type “they†do not like , 2) No longer live inside of Historic Springfield proper and 3) Recognize that currently, Historic Springfield is still an low income community. Of course, we have invested heavily in Historic SPringfield because we lived there for a good number of years. We spend the majority of our work days there. But that isn’t good enough for some to accept that we have the right to be here and a right to a voice and a right to be heard.
Some have implied that most of the residents of Springfield do not care and therefore do not enter these discussions. With some, they are right. Many, though, just don’t bother because they have learned the their voice will mostly be ignored by groups like SPAR Council and many really do not get the notices and do not realize that they could have a voice.
All that said, this discussion should be about the pros and cons of the faux trolley, not whether anyone has the right to speak out about it.
In this case, I have to go back to what has been told to me before: faux trolleys only work when there are good, solid, existing destinations in place already. So, it makes perfect sense that it works for the bar hopping group at the beaches. It makes sense that it will work for the lunch crowd downtown to Riverside. It doesn’t seem to make sense for Springfield.
The “destinations†are existing, but can’t they be better served by the existing bus routes and buses? How much is the faux trolley look worth? Does it increase rider-ship at all in anyway? Is the purpose for a faux trolley to get those who may not otherwise ride a bus to feel better about riding this faux trolley, AKA small bus? Or is the purpose of this exercise to “segregate†the rider-ship…the "poor" on the regular bus, the “better off†on the faux trolley? Is it just to make the possible patients going from the Proton Institute to 3rd and Main feel better and safer? Is the money better spent in other ways, IE: the low floor, environmentally friendly buses?
The problem here is that the only thing I see that can be promoted as a benefit with the faux trolley is that is looks marginally better than a regular bus. I can see no other positive. The extra cost doesn’t seem to be worth it. Now, here’s a question. What benefit does JTA get from this? Is the only way to get a dedicated line from the Landing, to 3rd and Main and then onto Shand’s is to do this faux trolley thing? If so, why? Will the money still be there to do this some other way? For, if this is the only way to get this route, then perhaps it is a good idea after all. Though I still worry somewhat that if it fails, it will somehow count against us in trying to get the real streetcar that will enable Springfield to grow even more.