Suburban Walkability: Markets at Town Center
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The Markets at Town Center is the latest addition to Jacksonville's suburban retail powerhouse.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1058
Good effort by Ben Carter Properties and the developer of Market Town Center to re-define "walkable" to apply to a vast parking wasteland. I suppose the Sahara is "walkable," but unless you're a camel, who would want to?
If a suburbanite is spoon fed by the right person/party, they will eat...
I always thought that putting a parking garage in at the St. John's Town Center would have opened more space for retail. I think they really would have benefited from that.
John
is it "walkable" if 95% of Jacksonville has to drive to it? it's bullshit, typical and just as ugly/pointless as every other suburban strip mall Jacksonville has. in 10 years it will look like regency.
Oh those poor mislead and stupid suburbanites... How silly that they flock to a vibrant and hugely popular shopping center when they could do the same in our beautiful downtown or springfield setting. In the midst of this recession/depression the town center is packed with shoppers.
I guess I can understand the envy...
Quote from: nestliving on April 16, 2009, 07:16:25 AM
is it "walkable" if 95% of Jacksonville has to drive to it? it's bullshit, typical and just as ugly/pointless as every other suburban strip mall Jacksonville has. in 10 years it will look like regency.
How is it pointless?
Wait... THERE'S SHOPPING OFF JTB!?!?
Seriously though, if I'm not mistaken, the Towncenter is located near many condominium/apartment complexes that are within walking distance. I could be wrong though... http://www.thedevlingroup.com/gallery_toscana_st_johns_town_center.html seems to be a 9 story complex, but it doesn't seem to be completed yet.
Like I mentioned in another thread, it's walkable for me. I love it.
If some want to look down on me because I'm "that poor suburbanite SOB," so be it.
And BT is absolutely right. The downturn/recession stops at the Town Center's borders. Place is slammed every weekend and even most days.
Quoteis it "walkable" if 95% of Jacksonville has to drive to it? it's bullshit, typical and just as ugly/pointless as every other suburban strip mall Jacksonville has. in 10 years it will look like regency.
You couldn't be more wrong. It doesn't look like anything around here... closest in comparrison would be the St. Augustine Outlets. People obviously love the SJTC as it is doing so well in this sh*t economy.
That being said, I hate the SJTC. It's crowded, over priced and doesn't have much more than Lettuce Wraps at PF Changs that attracts me. I'm glad they didn't build something like this in my neighborhood.
I think the photo of the building with the photo mural of people dining in a cafe perfectly sums up this addition to the SJTC. An ersatz example of a walkable vibrant downtown.
I do shop there as they offer unique shopping experiences not replicable anywhere else in North Florida (i.e. Bo Concept, West Elm, Sephora, Anthroplogie, Cole Haan, Louis Vuitton). It is for this reason that I don't think the STJC will suffer the same fate as the other malls so readily. These retailers do not expand aggressively and have limited presence even in Metropolitan areas much larger than ours with larger levels of disposable income as well. For example, there are only two Bo Concepts in the entire D.C metro region and they are 4 times our size.
I also never understood why SJTC didn't build vertical. Placing condos within walking distance of the stores is great but why not build condos over the stores. I'm guessing parking garages were not considered because of the greater expense to build and maintain, but they could have easily charged to park to cover costs. With such unique draws, people would have paid. It's like they feel obligated to develop every inch of land they own rather than concentrate density and leave rest of the parcel unspoiled.
Quote from: Deuce on April 16, 2009, 09:47:52 AM
but they could have easily charged to park to cover costs. With such unique draws, people would have paid.
I think the free parking was a requirement to attract many of those very retailers. Still, good point about going vertical.
You have to walk at SJTC, because no one knows how to use a 4-way stop!
I am not a huge fan of the Town Center, but that is mainly because people there can't drive worth a sh*t and most of the restaurants are chains and I tend to support mom & pop places. That being said the Town Center is hugely successful and does offer up a few things I enjoy like The Grape, DSW, Garlic Pickles from Ted's!! and PF Chang's selection of dips/ hot sauces.
It is walkable... how can someone say it's not? May not be enjoyable when it's 96 degrees out to walk from Old Navy to Cantino Laredo, but it is possible. I don't think it will look like an outdated plaza off Baymeadows or Regency in ten years either... there are some mega $$$ retailers in there and I think the owners & retailers will be invested in keeping the place looking clean, fresh and hip.
I do think they should incorporate some sort of trolley though... either for free or with an all-day / monthly pass and just have them continuously circle the parking lot from one end to the other with frequent stops. That would really be nice when it's raining, hot or you have 6 or 7 bags full of Christmas stuff.
Shopping centers don't build vertical because the retailers don't want it. Their studies show that buyers don't care to shop on upper levels. The commercial developers don't particularly care for multi use because they don't want to get into the residential component.
Parking garages are a large expense, so until land prices get high enough, they will keep single level lots.
Until these things change, keep detroying vast amounts of land and pave it all!
Future plans do call for the lot behind Cantina Laredo to become an anchor, as well as the lot and grass behind J. A's. In order for more to take this palce seriously, we need upscale retailers, or those dollars will continue to flock to Orlando, Tampa, or Atlanta. This mall is a chance to really grasp onto more of our local dolalrs, and not driving elsewhere. Even though people loath Neimans and Nordstrom, we certainly have the money here to keep them going, it'll take some time for the place to get more visibility to those retailers and once they come, I'll be more proud because we'd keep more money here in Duval County.
Even though it is a pain to get to, I enjoy the setting of SJTC, it is quite nice and I enjoy the jusic they play over the speakers. You ahve to admit, even if you hate it, it was designed fairly well. However, I think they should eliminate or at least reduce the availability of driving through. I can't tell you how many times people almsot, hell, some do drive through the stop signs.
I guess you can call it walkable since you have to get out of your car and actually walk into the stores, but seriously, it's a pig dressed in a pretty dress. The town center is no different to any other forced community / strip mall / retail "theme" that is mentioned in the metro jax article written a while back (link below). It's just new. One day, when it's old and all of the stores have moved on to the next big planned concept that is going to revolutionize retail Jacksonville will be left with yet another funky part of town for us to shake our heads at. Please don't get me wrong, I am a retailer and opened a store in that mall when it first opened. I love some of the concepts out there (although it does piss me off a little that Urban Outfitters is in a suburban mall). I just don't think we should be calling dog shit caviar.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/917/120/
I'd love to know where this next shopping mecca will be. I know the Davis' aren't budging on their land.
QuoteI'd love to know where this next shopping mecca will be.
I'm going with Palencia! ;D
Personally I would love a Nordstrom or Needless Markup. Throw a Saks, Bloomies, or Macy's in there and I won't have to trek to the Mall at Millenia.
That's almsot laughable. I'd go with WGV, but even that may be a stretch considering they don't have enough residents in the area.
Safe to say SJTC and vicinity has a lockdown for now.
The next regional centers are planned at WGV & I-95. However, there is no telling when those plans will become reality.
That's what I was saying, the plans for WGV have definetly fallen far bellow what was expected by now.
I wouldn't even call them plans anymore. The Worl Commerce Center site has been inactive for a year now. And the Esplande hasn't even turned a shovel of dirt. Not to mention all of the roadway improvements that were supposed to preceed it.
Quote from: Sigma on April 16, 2009, 10:38:50 AM
Shopping centers don't build vertical because the retailers don't want it. Their studies show that buyers don't care to shop on upper levels. The commercial developers don't particularly care for multi use because they don't want to get into the residential component.
Parking garages are a large expense, so until land prices get high enough, they will keep single level lots.
Until these things change, keep detroying vast amounts of land and pave it all!
Well said. I dunno what else to say. This topic has been a Pandora's Box around here for a VERY LONG TIME. It's amazing as to how SPOILED we have become as a city. There's a time a place for everything, but esp. now in the middle of a recession definitely isn't the time to build tall buildings in the middle of the suburbs.
I must say, I do like Orlando's SoDo. Fortunately, for them, it was built right before the economy went down the tubes.
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Suburban Cleveland's Crocker Park is also nice.
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So strip centers that are well integrated with their surroundings are possible. However, they probably won't happen unless the city actually plays a leading role in the planning process for the areas of town these centers go into.
^Ditto for all the new shopping centers being built around suburban Charlotte as well.
A mini storage facility
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A Harris Teeter anchored strip mall. The surface parking lot is located behind the retail stores.
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What, sprawl and shopping malls, with no bus service or shuttle service or a trolley? What no rail to SJTC from downtown? How could we have forgotten rail in this thread?
I thought we needed a little rail with every thread????
Not sure if this is true, but I've been told that the City of Jacksonville doesn't permit multi-use new developments outside of downtown Jax. Hence why you don't see any retail developments with vertical residential or office space. This by no means contains the suburban sprawl, but I suppose it does prevent a true "town center" from developing outside of downtown. Anyone with more familiarity of the building codes of Jax wish to confirm or elaborate further?
QuoteNot sure if this is true, but I've been told that the City of Jacksonville doesn't permit multi-use new developments outside of downtown Jax. Hence why you don't see any retail developments with vertical residential or office space. This by no means contains the suburban sprawl, but I suppose it does prevent a true "town center" from developing outside of downtown. Anyone with more familiarity of the building codes of Jax wish to confirm or elaborate further?
I believe that Tapestry Park off of Southside has retail with residential above. 1661 in Riverside does as well.
QuoteThat's almsot laughable.
It was meant to be.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 17, 2009, 03:46:34 AM
What, sprawl and shopping malls, with no bus service or shuttle service or a trolley? What no rail to SJTC from downtown? How could we have forgotten rail in this thread?
I thought we needed a little rail with every thread????
hehehe
Quote from: 5PointsGuy on April 16, 2009, 08:53:53 AM
Wait... THERE'S SHOPPING OFF JTB!?!?
Seriously though, if I'm not mistaken, the Towncenter is located near many condominium/apartment complexes that are within walking distance. I could be wrong though... http://www.thedevlingroup.com/gallery_toscana_st_johns_town_center.html seems to be a 9 story complex, but it doesn't seem to be completed yet.
yeh they scrapped that idea almost a yr ago if not more... that's where they plan the westin or a different hotel to go
Has there been a study on bringing retail back to downtown. It was great going to Riches in downtown Atlanta when I was a kid.
It is a joke on walkability. I agree that it is a strip mall like the rest of the St. Johns Town Center. The good thing is the new pedestrian walkway they have built to connect the RS&H and CEVA buildings (South of JTB) to the Markets. It makes a good walk to Chipotle during lunch hour if you work in that neighborhood.
the pedestrian walkway is narrow, so bicycles and pedestrians can not pass each other without some discomfort.
I would love to see some retail downtown again. Maybe something like the warehouse district of Omaha or downtown Denver. We can do much better than SJTC. I like walking at SJTC but it is a pain in the rear to park because the traffic roads in and out were poorly designed and some jacka_s is always trying to run you over.
Yes GatorDone, I love Denver's 16th street mall area and they have awesome mass transit throughout the city! Both times I've visited Denver, I was car-less, and I easily survived. I hate SJTC for the same reason. The endless parking lots and lack of accessibility is awful. You can't exactly walk anywhere except for the inner strip areas. It's one of the worst designed retail destinations ever!